I think it was last year that Dr. Ashby had said that he gave his findings on footing carbons, to an arrow manufacturer in hopes that they would start making them.
Does anyone know the status as to what company he gave the info to, or how they are coming with these shafts?
thanks,
sammy
Look at 3 Rivers Archery carbon collars. They make a huge difference on saving your carbon shafts and comming, soon nock collars. They keep your nocks from popping out!
http://3riversarchery.resultspage.com/search?asug=carbon+&w=carbon+collars
I know about the collars, they are the same as using an alum footing you cut yourself.
I'm just wondering about my original question.
Check out the AD Hammerheads.
Smallwood, I remember OL Adcock and Dr. Ashby posting about a manufacturer that was going to do an internal aluminum footing I believe? You may want to try and contact them directly to get more info. I think the Hammerheads are just thicker carbon near the tip.
"I know about the collars, they are the same as using an alum footing you cut yourself.
I'm just wondering about my original question."
They are not the same as ones you cut yourself. These are actually counterbored with a 45 degree internal taper so they will not slide up on the shaft after repeated shooting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Boomerang:
They are not the same as ones you cut yourself. These are actually counterbored with a 45 degree internal taper so they will not slide up on the shaft after repeated shooting.
And the ones they advertise to fit 300/340 diameter axis shafts don't fit, waay too big. I ordered some and sent them back. I like the idea of the lip of metal that covers the end of the shaft but I've never had a standard footing move or slip up the shaft after any amount of shooting (I use JB weld). The main problem I've run into is although they are pretty much impervious to mushrooming at that point, the shaft just snaps above the footed part. I think that was the main problem OL and the Doc were trying to overcome with the internal footing.
I also like the old "bulldog" collars that went around the nock that Carbon express had (not sure if they still do). With multiple heavy hits I've had the nock end develop tiny cracks/splits from repeated hammering from the nock.
JC,
The collars were not designed to fit the axis shafts. They were made to fit their traditional only shafts, but I have some Golt Tip 55/75's and the 400's fit them. Also they are comming out with a nock collar that has a ring barb in it that not only keeps the shaft from splitting on the nock end, but also keeps the nock from popping out.
Boomer
That'll teach me to not read the fine print! :knothead:
Now, convince them they need to make them for the axis type shafts and I'll give them a go again.
I think the nock collars will do well.
Does anyone know if these will fit the Carbon Express Heritage 250s??????
I just checked and the ones for the 300/340s fit.
How about Grizzly Sitkas?
I think OL has pointed out(and it makes sense) that mushrooming is due to the insert not being attached securely enough. The same thing would hold true if you were trying to stop mushrooming with an external footing. Basically the answer is to use a better adhesive.
OL suggests the tapered footing so the shaft doesnt break at the point where the footing ends.
Was that the wood dowel inside the shaft idea I heard about? Sounds like it would make one heck of a heavy arrow.
The Carbon Collars fit between the standard insert and can't go anywhere because they are counterbored. As long as you glue the insert in you don't even need to glue the collar on. There is no way that your shaft can split unless you break the collar. I use them all the time and they make a huge difference on the durrability of the shaft. They might seem kind of expensive for such a little thing, but considering the price of shafts they are well worth it.
Boomer
ttt
Will the carbon collar fit GT3555 shafts?
After quite a bit of testing and destroying carbons with various footings shooting them into a length of angle iron I had driven into the ground with a post driver, I came to the following conclusions which ended up being about the same as Ashby's. I could have saved a bunch of time and money had I just took his advice:)
First, it is important that the insert stays put and does not drive into the carbon shaft upon impact. If it does, it then becomes a simple machine being a "wedge" and therefore will split the end of the shaft very easily. Of the many readily available products I've tried, I settled on using JB Weld slow cure steel epoxy which has proven to me to work exceedingly well.
Second, no matter how well you epoxy the insert into place within the carbon shaft, it needs to be brass as the aluminum insert will easily crush on hard hits. No matter how fixed in place the JB weld holds the aluminum insert, when the insert begins to crush and shorten in length, the material increases in width and again becomes a simple machine becoming a wedge which will split the carbon. The brass insert holds its shape and does not crush like aluminum on hard hits.
Third, if you use a brass insert and properly epoxy this insert into place with a good slow cure epoxy, the insert will become one solid unit with the carbon shaft for the length of the insert. The insert will not become a wedge within the carbon and the carbon will not split. Any footing material added, be it internal or be it external, will need to be longer than the insert itself to be effective. Even then, if the footing has an abrupt ending shoulder, you will be limited in strength as you will continue to have a weak point directly behind this abrupt shoulder. Therefore, having the footing with an abrupt shoulder merely moves the weak point behind the head/insert further back onto the shaft.
Fourth, if you use an internal footing which ends with a gradual taper, and you epoxy the leading edge into place along with the brass insert, you will then see the following two benefits:
1. you will maintain a smaller overall shaft diameter compared to adding an external sleeve.
2. having the internal footing ending with a gradual taper eliminates the abrupt shoulder and allows a hard hit to be absorbed over a longer section of shaft which eliminates the weak spot.
As to the collars, I do not see how they would be of any benefit if used with a brass insert that is properly epoxied into place being that the collars are shorter in length than the insert. I can see some benefit if using an aluminum insert, but even then, I do not see how they can prevent the aluminum from crushing on hard hits. I'd suggest switching to a brass insert and an epoxy such as slow cure JB Weld if you are having any breakage issues and dumping the aluminum insert all together.
As to the original question, I do not see anyone coming out with the many needed combinations of internal footings during these hard financial times. I can see possibly something coming out for a singular specialized carbon shaft, but not something for all the combinations. Maybe I'm wrong and before too long we'll see something like this being readily available as are inserts today, but I have doubts.
Otherwise, use brass and use the technique of applying an internal light coating of slow cure epoxy into the shaft deeper then the insert is long. You also apply a similar light coating onto the brass insert. When installed and fully seated, a small amount of epoxy will push ahead of the insert base making a small tapered shoulder that will feather down to the coating you applied internally. I've experimented with this a bunch to include cutting the shaft to inspect the epoxy feathered taper, and I have found this alone can help eliminate the abrupt shoulder that creates a weak spot. Not as strong as adding the tapered internal foot, but much stronger than just gluing in the insert with an abrupt shoulder.
Best,
DB
DB, your results with JB weld are familiar. This is the only product I now use to install inserts.
Even with the JB weld, when using axis type shafts the shafts can mushroom (or at least crack) simply because the broadhead is resting directly on the shaft. I have found this true with either the aluminum or the brass. I do agree that the brass inserts are far superior to the aluminum on a conventional shaft where the broadhead rests on the insert itself.
A collar/external sleeve does prevent the mushroom on axis type shafts (again installed with JB) but at the expense of a (negligible) decrease in penetration. When using the external sleeve the only problems I encounter on immovable objects is the crush or complete failure of the shaft right behind the insert.
All that said, what are you used for your tapered internal foot? I never considered tapering it but it makes perfect sense. My problem is finding something that will work in the tiny diameter of an axis type shaft.
JC, I settled on the AD Trads with the brass insert sold by Ted Fry. This insert has a heavy shoulder that protects the leading edge of the carbon shaft. I've tested these as heavy as 720grains into the steel angle arrow trap that hit hard enough to fold over Grizzly broadheads but was unable to crush, move, or bend the insert which stayed integral and protected the shaft. All breaks were behind the insert with the epoxy technique I noted making a marked improvement, and the internal foot making a huge improvement.
AD Trads are easily IF'd with a length of dowel that is hand tapered. But, with using at least the regular AD Trads, with the brass and JB Weld, they will stand up to a great deal of abuse without adding the IF. Adding the IF takes them well over the top for durability absent hard side hits on sharp edged rocks that score and damage the shafting making it unsafe to shoot. I lose more than I could ever break.
later,
DB
Any further word about the footed shafts?
QuoteOriginally posted by wudstix:
Was that the wood dowel inside the shaft idea I heard about? Sounds like it would make one heck of a heavy arrow.
I shoot 31.5 inch arrows with at least 24in poplar dowels (axis 340s with 1/4in dowl) it adds about 4 grains each inch and i use locktite 60 min epoxy they are heavy and do slow the shot down a little but the durability and penetration works for the better. keep in mind that i shoot 63# at 30in so my power stroke is a bit longer and harder than most.
I just got some carbon rod that I was going to start playing with this past week. It slides right inside a .250 shaft and is about 21 gpi. Hope to make some up this next wek if I get some time. dino
Crossstickpro how much spine does that much doweling add to your arrows? I would think that with that length of internal footing the spine would increase greatly.
Smallwood, You could try and contact Ted Fry
with Raptor Archery. There was a thread back
in NOV. about some (proto-type) shafts he
was testing.
thanks for the info rollin.
Check out Ted Fry (Raptor archery) and his signature line of paralell AD shafts. They come with a internal footing you can cut to length, he says it fits tight in the arrow - adds strecgth and weight.
have not tried them yet - so no personal experience but look like a winner. I am torn between those and hammerheads :knothead: for this year.
J