I would like to make the move to carbon arrows but have a question as to how to assemble them. I make woodies and aluminum. On the aluminum I've seen using the standard old fashion shafts. Glue the nock on the taper end, glue in an insert, fletch and you're finished.
I am thinking about either gold tips or the Carbon Express Predator II shafts sold by Braveheart. In other words, the less expensive shafts.
What is used to assemble these shafts, is it like the aluminum or ??? At this point I'm not worried about tuning at this point, just what components do I need to get to put them together?
Confused with the new technology. :confused:
the shafts, press-in nocks, inserts (to accept screw-in points), feathers, fletch tape (highly recommended!) or an appropriate glue.
in other words, really not much different from alums (save for the press-in nocks).
i just made a half dozen carbon judos for next weekend's whittingham shoot ... have fun, too!
i'll add a postscript - selecting carbon shafts that'll work with yer bow(s) and you is, imho, a bit daunting as compared to alums. don't rely on the manufacturer's spine charts! you may find going weaker in spine and adding more front end weight will make for a more forgiving arrow.
I have been shooting carbons for 12 years, and totally agree with Rob's postscript.
What Rob said.
Also post your bow make, draw wght and length, and targeted arrow wght total and you will get some great responces for narrowing your choice.
Steve
Thanks for the info.
I have 2 bows and I know I'll need to make 2 different arrows.
One is a Howatt Hunter - 35 lbs at 28
The other is a Martin Hatfield - 55 lbs at 28
My draw length is about 29.5. I'd like to go about 10 gr. per inch and figure 150 gr. heads.
I think the only real difference is needing a high speed cutter for length.. Most glues that work on alum or wood work on carbon..
QuoteOriginally posted by Hattrick:
I think the only real difference is needing a high speed cutter for length.. Most glues that work on alum or wood work on carbon..
I use hotmelt on my aluminum inserts. Does that work for carbon inserts too?
Glue your carbon inserts.
you can use a fine tooth saw to cut carbon shafts, then trim up and bevel with 120 grit or so. i use a dremel with a carbide cutoff wheel and then true up with a rotary sander and 120 grit.
for inserts and any glue-on point adapters i always use slow set epoxy - there is no guess work and no failures, ever.
ymmv.
Hotmelt works fine on carbon inserts. I use the same hotmelt I use on my aluminum shafts. We normally add internal weights to the carbon shafts for tuning purposes, and the hotmelt works great for changing weights: just hold in boiling water for 15 seconds or so, and pull out the insert.
i don't like mixing heat with carbon, so inserts are glued in permanently with slow set epoxy. i alter the point weight by choosing point and adapter weights that'll yield a good gpp and foc for a particular holding draw weight. again, if point + adapter is needed, i glue in with slow set epoxy - which can be easily debonded with flame heat. i have screw-in point weights on hand for every "stock" weight from 125 thru 250 grains, and i use slip on modified nuts that weigh 20 grains for added testing weights.
Rob we are going to need a picture or atleast a good explanation on the slip on nut thing it sounds handy.
when i heat up the insert or abstract it, i put a field tip in it to keep the heat off the shaft by heating the tip
QuoteOriginally posted by Hattrick:
when i heat up the insert or abstract it, i put a field tip in it to keep the heat off the shaft by heating the tip
laminated carbon/glass fibers are *very* sensitive to heat, doesn't matter whether it's directly or indirectly applied. i've worked enuf with carbon, graphite and 'e' and 's' glass to keep heat out of the equation. but, ymmv.
Rob,
didn't you mean to say go HIGHER in spine and add more tip weight? Or am I reading that incorrectly?
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
Rob,
didn't you mean to say go HIGHER in spine and add more tip weight? Or am I reading that incorrectly?
no, i did state (and mean) going lower in spine and adding on more front end weight. this knowledge is what works for me and the results of spending hundreds of carbon shaft dollars and dozens of arrow building and testing hours.
i found that the listed carbon spine rating ranges (isn't it at least strange that only carbon shafts have 'spine ranges' instead of precise spine numbers as found with alums and woodies?), did not work for me and all were far too high in spine for my 46-55 pound longbows.
i'm using a .500 spine carbon for 43, 46, 51 and 55 pound holding weight (29") longbows. front ends are 175 - 350 grains total (including brass or alum inserts). by all the charts i should be using at least .400's, maybe even .350's.
the only exception for me are the ad trads - they just work for all my bows regardless of whatever spine those puppies are and no matter what the foc.
again, this is what i found for me, these are my opinions, and ymmv.
I must agree with Rob, I have found that the spine ranges are far too stiff for my low 50's weight bows. I drop down to a lower spine and weight up the front for good arrow flight.
Rob - ymmv?
Interesting.
I use 75-90'ish shafts and load up the front with 300+ grains and it reduces the spine to work with my bows..in the 60-65 lb range.
Are you cutting the shaft length down? Bows cut to center?
You learn sumtin every day on TG.
QuoteOriginally posted by over&under:
... Rob - ymmv?
Your Mileage May Vary :D
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
... Are you cutting the shaft length down? Bows cut to center? ...
all my arras are 29-1/4" from the depth of the nock throat to the front end of the cut carbon shaft.
all my longbows are a fat 1/8"+ off center.
OK, so you are buying the lower spine shaft, cutting length off which makes them stiffer, then adding weight to reduce spine again.
Got ya.
I leave mine full length until I get the tip weight where I want it, then if its too low in spine I just reduce tip weight a little at a time to make it right, or cut it 1/4 inch at a time to make it work right.
in the past, arrow spine (i.e. woodies) was calculated from the shaft's center (2# hung weight) as supported at 13" on either side of that center (26" spine length).
most modern shafting (alum and carbon) uses either 28" or 29" for a measured spine length. maybe. i think. i truly wonder if the carbon makers even know.
imo, not an issue for alums as the easton charts are pretty darned good, overall. but carbons? no way, jose. we're all on our own.
take from that what you will. my final assessment is that carbon shaft spine is pure voodoo mojo mumbo jumbo, at best - and doing yer own testing is what's needed to get an arra that'll fly at it's optimum (again, for you and a particular bow's parameters). :saywhat:
postscript - i want to use a particular arra length, not one dictated by resorting to it being longer just to drop the spine. if that were the case, i'd be shooting danged spears instead of arras. a full length .400 flew decent for me, but no way am i gonna shoot such a long missile. :D
well, I always try to leave them full length just because it means I was able to get a little extra weight.
Don't misunderstand...there's a hundred ways to skin a cat....and I certainly am not young and dumb enough to think my way, or any other way for that matter, is the only way to get where you want to go, Rob.
I'm just trying to learn how YOU got there is all, buddy.
I'm looking forward to seeing a pig with one of your arrows through it in a month or so.
yep, that's exactly where it's at, ray - lotsa ways to make them arras fly well for each of us. not rocket science! :)
since i don't hold much past 55#, and since i like high foc, it was good that i could start with a light carbon shaft (7.3 gpi), then pile on the front end weight to up the total arra weight beyond 10 gpp. so, it works out fine ...
29.25" beman ics 500 + lo-pro banana 4-fletch + bohning sig nock = 235 grains
100 grain brass insert + 125 grain steel adapter + 125 grain woodsman = 350 grains up front
total arra weight = 585 grains, 29.35% foc.
life is good, :D
bring on da pigs! please! :cool:
QuoteOriginally posted by Mo. Huntin:
Rob we are going to need a picture or atleast a good explanation on the slip on nut thing it sounds handy.
the nut job, for adding front end weight ...
the id on an 8/32 nut measures .150, the typical stud on a screw-in point measures .200, so i'm gonna use a .218 drill bit to open up the nut's hole a smidge ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut1.jpg)
weighing the unmodified nut ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut2.jpg)
drilling out the nut ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut3.jpg)
weighing the modified nut ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut4.jpg)
adding the 19 grain nut to various points ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/nut7.jpg)