Just finished bare shaft testing with some POC shafts. The results were a little baffling. By the way, last time I posted about bare shaft tuning with woodies, I got a couple of recommendations that I just fletch 'em up and start there - skip the bare shaft step.
Anyway, my setup is 46@28, cut to center. I draw a full 28" I took two POC shafts spined at 57# and 63#, stripped off the fletches and started playing. As expected the 57# shaft was quite weak. The 63# shaft shows slightly weak (nock left). The biggest mystery is that the shafts hit nock high at 10 - 15 yards no matter how low I move the nock. I can get it close but they always hit nock high. I think I have the spine pretty close with 63# but I am not sure what is going on with the nock setting. Any thoughts?
OL was probably right - I should just fletch 'em up, glue on some broadheads and get them grouping together and call it a day.
You need some clearance for the fletching so I'd keep the nocking point a little high until you shoot them with fletching. Just watch for porposing. You didn't mention how much above perpendicular you went or came down to.
I set the nock anywhere from about 1/8" up to 9/16". I think something else might be going on as well. My fletched arrows with weaker spines are hitting nock right (indicating stiff). My bare shafts with stiffer spines are hitting nock left (indicating weak). Seems a little bass ackwards.
Where are they hitting as compared to fletched arrows?
Snag is leading you in the right direction.."The biggest mystery is that the shafts hit nock high at 10 - 15 yards no matter how low I move the nock."
That's no mystery, that's typical for the "kick" bare shaft method, the left/right will mislead you also..Use the planing method...O.L.
Why would you expect shafts that are spined 10-15# heavier than the bow weight at your draw to spine weak? Are you shooting a high a performance bow/string? Heavy points? Shooting idiosyncracies probably explain the nock high as well as nock left findings. As Snag notes, where are the shafts hitting compared to your fletched arrows?
Snag, The bareshafts (60-63#) hit several inches right of EVERY fletched shaft I have from 55 - 65#. All fletched shafts (all 29" with 125 gr field points) seem to fly great.
Any of that make sense?
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Why would you expect shafts that are spined 10-15# heavier than the bow weight at your draw to spine weak? ...
I would expect a 60-63#, 29" bareshaft to be about right for a 46@28 high performance recurve, according to the charts at arrowsbykelly, and according to about everything else I have read here.
This is my first foray into wood. Just trying to figure it out.
OL, I think you're right.
Wood, carbon, aluminum...It's all the same. Be careful cause guess which direction overly stiff shafts will kick/group?...Yep, they'll show weak. If you drop point weight and things don't get better, that's the case...O.L.
Actually, I stripped a few more shafts (I hate doing that) and what I am seeing is that a 55# bareshaft shows VERY weak, a 57# shaft shows pretty weak, and a 63# shows slightly weak - all based on 15 yards, consistently hitting right of fletched shafts with nocks pointing left.
Maybe all this makes sense and even the 63# shaft is slightly weak???
Just put some broadheads on and shoot some arrows from 30 yards. That will show you alot. Sounds like your close, so the broadheads will tell the rest.
Its hard to tell a whole lot from 15yards though.
SL
SL is correct, wide broadheads like Snuffers will tell you exactly the same thing without striping fletching. Narrow bh's will not...O.L.
That's the way I prefer to do it as well, grouping the biggest broadheads I can find against field points.
Bob, without changing anything can you re-test at 20 yards and see what pattern develops?
I gave up "chasing nocks" except when the shafts almost hit the target sideways.
O.L. - "Be careful cause guess which direction overly stiff shafts will kick/group ?...Yep, they'll show weak."
Ah-er-um ya lost me there, overly stiff shafts can't group both weak and stiff at the same time :confused:
If they are too stiff they will hit the riser instead of bending around the riser. It can kick them weak.
I bareshafted some D. Fir a couple of weeks ago. I came up with a little different results than what I was expecting as well.
I was shooitng a Hill Big-5 and I am pulling right at 52# at my draw (27.5"). I experimented some with the arrow lenghts but setteled on a 29 inch shaft with 125 gr. head. Anyway, the 45-50's nearly hit the target sideways head right nock left (very weak) and the 50-55's were almost dead on left and right ... maybe showing a little weak, and the 55-60's were dead on at 18 steps. And as expected, the 60-65's proved to be very stiff.
I was expecting the 45-50's to be a better 'fit' because of the bow not being centershot and needing the arrow to flex further around the riser, but the stiffer arrows won out in my crude testing. I have 2 dozen arrows ordered now... a dozen of 50-55's and a dozen 55-60's. I will do a little more testing with them and nail it down better hopefully since they both shot well without feathers.
I did notice the arrows did hit the target at a downward angle (showing nock high) almost every shot I made, no matter where I nocked the arrow. I was a little baffeled that I couldn't get it any better than I did. The best I could pull off was the arrow maybe hitting at a 20 degree angle (still point down and tail up) at a nock point at 3/8ths of an inch above parallel.
Any thought on why the arrows wouldn't level off and hit perfectly?
Ok, how the arrow flies to the target means very little. Anything can throw this off....wind, a bad release, droppig your arm to watch the shaft fly...anything. almost every target material exaggerates the problem, causing arrows hitting at a very slight angle to kick that same direction on impact.
It's where they impact in relation to fletched arrows that is important.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Ok, how the arrow flies to the target means very little. Anything can throw this off....wind, a bad release, droppig your arm to watch the shaft fly...anything.
It's where they impact in relation to fletched arrows that is important.
I would agree, but a. I am shooting inside and b. it is incredibly consistent. My form is not the best, but I am pretty consistent. And, I have had excellent results bare shafting carbon.
So I know what you are saying, but I am not new to bare shaft testing, only to wood arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Old York:
Bob, without changing anything can you re-test at 20 yards and see what pattern develops?
OK, did that today. Used 2 arrows - one spined at 55 and one at 63. The 55 at 20 yards went right and low by SEVERAL FEET, over and over same result. The 63 went low and only slightly right, again, over and over with the same result.
What type of bow and what is your actual draw length?
Some high performance bows are cut up to 3/16" past center and will require spine as much as 30# over indicated draw weight. Try taping a thin (paper match stick) piece on your riser to move it out from center and try the same arrows. If they fly better, you are still under spined for your set up.
46@28. I draw the full 28. 58" whisperstik cut to center. The more I shoot the more I think that everything is as you would expect it. my 63# shafts hit right at 15-20 yards indicating weak. I am thinking that the correct spine is around 65, but I don't have any POC shafts in that spine.
I would go down in spine, 55/59 cut to 29" BOP with a 125gr point should be right on. From what I've read on the thread, I would guess tight nocks might be a factor, how do the nocks fit the string? And Shaun, might be on too something also, are you sure the bow is center cut and not past center?
Bob
QuoteOriginally posted by aromakr:
I would go down in spine, 55/59 cut to 29" BOP with a 125gr point should be right on. From what I've read on the thread, I would guess tight nocks might be a factor, how do the nocks fit the string? And Shaun, might be on too something also, are you sure the bow is center cut and not past center?
Bob
Bob,
According to the bowyer it is cut to center, but know I don't know that for a fact. The nocks take a couple of pounds of pressure to pull off. I tried a 57# bare shaft and got a weak result.
Thanks for the input. I will go down in spine and retry.
Bob
One thing that is VERY common...When folks try to shoot different spined shafts and draw conclusions from them, the variables involved may not show what they think they should see. Pick a spine, see what they are doing then tune the point weights and or bow centershot till they shoot. You can do that with any arrow between 45# and 60# out of that bow if you so desired.
50-54# would tune up just great out of that bow but you might have to use a lower point weight then you want. The 55-59# like Bob said will be close to perfect but may need 145-160 up front or leave them a bit longer. If you are looking for a set to shoot perfect right out of the box, won't happen barring pure luck...O.L.
QuoteOriginally posted by O.L. Adcock:
...Pick a spine, see what they are doing then tune the point weights and or bow centershot till they shoot. ...
I like that approach. Thanks for all your help on this one. I would still suggest, however, that the 63# shafts I have been working with show a touch weak. That is with a 29" shaft and a 125 grain point. If I can get my hands on some 100 grain points I will find out for sure if that shaft will work.
Thanks again.
By the way, I built out the strike plate with a thick piece of leather and the 63# bare shafts now shoot like darts.
QuoteOriginally posted by Scrub_buck:
I did notice the arrows did hit the target at a downward angle (showing nock high) almost every shot I made, no matter where I nocked the arrow. I was a little baffeled that I couldn't get it any better than I did. The best I could pull off was the arrow maybe hitting at a 20 degree angle (still point down and tail up) at a nock point at 3/8ths of an inch above parallel.
Any thought on why the arrows wouldn't level off and hit perfectly?
No idea, but this is exactly my experience.
There is a "sweet spot" where your nocking point will shoot level. If you are above that, it will shoot nock high. If you are below that, it will shoot nock low up to a point, and then start rebounding off the shelf and look nock high.
It's very important to get the nocking point right before anything else. Trying to bare-shaft with the nocking point off is useless. You may find a shaft that shoots reasonably straight, but if the nocking point is off, accuracy will suffer and broadhead arrows will do funny things.
To set the nocking point, I shoot a soft target at 5 yards with no fletching. After the nocking point is found, you can adjust spine until the shafts are close to straight in the target, then you can move back for fine tuning. I adjust until the shafts fly level, then go up just a fudge. It helps with fletching clearance.
Some recurve bows that are designed to be shot from an elevated rest have a nocking point that looks very high when shooting off the shelf. These bows will kick nock high because of rebounding off the shelf at positions that look good, but aren't because of the tillering for elevated shelf.
Don,
That's good info on setting the nock point. My results over the past few days confirm exactly what you are saying regarding the nock point.
In the end, I learned that when bare shafting, as long as you are close in spine weight it's important to trust the results you are seeing. With this whisperstik, my bare shaft results CONSISTENTLY show that the optimum spine weight is between 65 and 70 with a 29" arrow and a 125 grain point. As OL mentioned my fine tuning can be done adjusting tip weight and centershot.
But again, let me repeat - bareshaft testing at 15 to 20 yards is not difficult and you can generally trust the results you are seeing. And while we can generalize about the correct shaft, no one can know for certain without walking through the tuning exercise with you. I hope that doesn't sound ungrateful for all of the advice, because every little bit helped me narrow down the details.
Thanks guys for all your help.
Only one thing, I found it funny everyone started giving advice without know what length the shafts were and what point weight you were shooting. Add 10#s for a high performance recurve that is cut to center, if past center ya may add 15#s and thna for every inch over 28"s add 5 more #s of spine with a 125 grain point. I would say a 29" shaft with 125 grain point you would want a woodie right around 58-60#s as ya want a bareshaft a tad weak so when ya add a broadhead and fletch it up, it will be about perfect. Your bow is cut to center add 10#s and 5#s more for the inch over 28"s so 61#s but ya want the bareshaft a bit weak, so that is why I say 58-60#s should be about perfect. Shawn