I've pretty much always shot 2016 Legacy's thru my Widows but I'm thinking about trying some carbons. I'd like to hear from those of you who shoot carbons what the real advantages are over aluminum?
The only real advantage I see is durability. You can't bend carbon.
They are quieter (maybe not on the shot, but every time you ting em against something).
They aren't cold like aluminum.
More durable overall (although heavy wall aluminum is darn durable).
They front load better.
They are either straight or they are broken.
Nothing beats a legacy though. :)
It's a terrible thing to have as many good choices as we do.
One thing to be aware of, you will have to make some concessions to get a carbon flying for you if you are shooting 2016's now. Your going to have to load up the tip or leave some extra length to get the spine you need.
I second the Legacy 2016s. Aluminum is easier to work with. Like using heat to turn/remove your inserts so your broadheads will line up the same on all of them. And you don't have to worry about scraping old fletching off of aluminum shafts and damaging them. Carbons will crack on the point end too. Aluminums, generally, are cheaper, too. But, I know if they get a dent/ding in them, then they are done. I've shot both, but only aluminum in trad. Still, I prefer aluminum for the above reasons.
P.S. Let me know if ya wanna trade off those 2016s. I may have something you need, who knows?
Doug
Yeah I don't think I'm gonna give up my Legacy's, but just toying with the idea of trying Carbons
Have to disagree with every statement made about aluminums. They are noisier at the shot, they do not tune as easily as a carbon and a dozen carbons will outlast a dozen aluminums 5 or 6 to one. I would rather shoot wood than aluminum, it is as durable is quieter at the shot and easier to tune. Sorry but I never have liked them, for the guys who do, good for ya! Shawn
Hey Rick, I spent the better part of this past weekend messing around with some GT 3555 arrows/shafts. I too use 2016 when I shoot aluminum. Long story short..to heck with the carbon! When I finally hit on the right combo of point weight/length, etc; they didn't hit where my woodies and 2016's did. If 'ya just got to find out for yourself (like I did !), only buy a few (or borrow) to play around with.
I've found the opposite of SuperK. I shoot 2016's and 3555's. I find the 3555's shoot faster, quieter and are much more durable as stated already. You will go through at least three dozen aluminums before you would go through a dozen carbons.
Finding the proper spine is the key so if you do get them, take just one arrow and shoot it full length and then cut it down a half inch to an inch at a time to find the best spine for your bow before cutting all of them. I shoot them out of all four of my recurves ranging in poundage from 50-56 lbs.
Love the 2016's as well but the carbons are wonderful. The 3555's are lighter than the aluminums so I use a 100 grain brass insert to pump the FOC up.
I wish I knew where someone was selling a test kit like they do for the Sitka's so you could test them without buying a whole dozen. I think I've seen half dozens on the big E auction site.
Good luck.
T.J.
Carbon? ... Wood? ... 2016s? ... If you ask me they are all good! Carbon is a bit of a chore to tune but if they are (footed) front and back are almost bomb proof. Although they look funny that way. Wood is just cool and smells good when it's cut. Takes time, if you have it, to prepare into arrows. Can't have enough 2016's! Great for all sorts of target shooting and some hunting too.
BUT... For deer hunting with a longbow I just gotta use wood. That's what my heart tells me anyway. If I ever take my TFV off the wall I will be using Carbon Express w/100 gr. brass inserts and a heavy broadhead.
... mike ...
I like my aluminums and have for forty years. I've found them super easy to tune and the multitude of sizes allow for easy pickin'. I think choices are great and carbon will develop into a better arrow for the traditional shooter.
If you like those extreme fronts of center that everyone is touting nowadays, carbon is the way to go. Just be tickled there is so much available.
Ive shot aluminum for 15 or 20 years.
Im getting a new bow this spring and I plan to shoot carbons in it from the start.
It seems that for all the reasons I had chose aluminum, with the current carbon I can do as good or better(price, durability, consistencyand etc).
Im kind curious and excited to see how they work out.
Michael, Cedar is all I shoot out of my Hill bows, can't bring myself to use anything else and half the fun of using them is making them.
The thought of carbons scare me big time and I would NEVER use them,they will/do splinter,and if you have ever gotten a shaft thrue your bow hand you'll think twice about wood and thrice about carbon,at least with wood if a catastrophic failure occurs you will have biodegradeabel slinters.If you doubt the very real threat of this happening just go to Easterns website and read the precautions about carbon shafts from the producer of them.I would never risk eating venison shot by a carbon shaft...ooo yum carbon splinters.I'm not trying to be a wise guy here as just about everyone knows more than I do,but every time I hear about people loading up the front to get the shafts to bend I just cring,some guys are really aching for the bacon.Of course its all just bull until it happens to you,I hope it never does.
You don't want to use carbon, that's your choice.
Carbons have been in use as arrow stock for a decade, and in golf club shafts and fishing poles for longer than that. Carbon isn't any more likely to splinter than aluminum or wood are to break, and the bunk about carbon splinters in meat is just exactly that, bunk.
????...OOOKEEE..DOEKEEE. I am speaking from real life experiance and published data from the manufacturer as well as pictures I have seen of carbon shafts that have failed and gone thru peoples bow hand.I'm not trying to upset anyone,just trying to help keep people safe,course its none of my bussiness what others do,just saying it hurts like hell and its probably not a good thing?
Can it happen? Sure. Aluminum can also fatigue and come apart ont he shot. Wood can have flaws that don't reveal themselves until you put the material under strees.
Does it happen? About as often as a million dollar slot payoff.
Let's try and keep the discussion over shafting open.
I agree Jeff.
Ouch, Jeff. Little harsh?
Lets not forget Rule 1: Respect
It's ok to disagree but not necessary to jump down a guys throat.
Let's not take this aluminum/carbon debate personally...in order to keep this thread open.
I think some of the concerns Shootist expressed about carbon splintering either in the hand or animal come from the older pultruded carbon. I know for a fact that those did indeed splinter and the failures were usually catasrophic. I have not seen any of those problems with newer carbon technology even when used to the point of abuse.
Sorry to be harsh. Carbon is at least as safe as aluminum or wood. You aren't any more likely to swallow a carbon splinter than you are to swallow a bleeder blade off a broadhead.
I`ve shot 2018`s or 2020`s for years but got my hands on some carbons at a deal that shot like a dream. Could been lucky that they tuned just right with what I had I don`t know.I got about a dozen 2018`s left I`m gonna use out of my Homemade longbow "Mojo" but I got a dozen 35/55 gold tips I`m gonna load up and shoot out of the new longbow Apex is building me. I will say from the ones I`ve shot the carbons are much more durable and I like`m. I`ve killed about a half dozen pigs with one shaft and three rabbits.With the lack of critters I`ve seen the past few days this dozen should last me about 50 YEARS.RC
I have found that any arrow out of a certain bow may be hard to tune, but it can be tuned if the spine is close. I shoot alum.,carbon,and wood, I have had good luck with all three. My 2216's still shoot as good as any!!! Carbon may be more durable, wood may be pretty and smell good, but my 2216's and 2117's still work darn good. I will also say that I do love wood arrows.
Been shooting Aluminum 2114 X7s or XX78s for over 10 years now.
They ALWAYS weigh the same, they ALWAYS fly the same, and the bare shafts ALWAYS cost less than $6.00 each. Additionally, they ALWAYS fly the same with either a 145 gr field point or a 145 gr Bear Super Razorhead on the business end too.
I have tried just about every carbon combo out there and with the exception of the ABS Sitka, I haven't found one which tunes as easily and flies as well as my trusty old 2114s. The up front higher cost of the Sitkas, the "fat" business end (penetration concerns), and the abrasion caused by 3D targets sent me packing back to my beloved 2114s in short order.
Once you find a good shaft which flies right every time, why switch?
My buddy JC loves his carbons and argues the merits of his very effectively... Of course he spanked my fat behind good at the TBG State Shoot 2 weeks ago so maybe you ought to listen to him instead of me anyway... :knothead:
Not gonna recommend one arrow over another, but the reports of carbon arrows splintering are primarily from the earlier years of carbon arrows, when the quality of the carbon arrows and manufacturing process was quite different than what is used today. Contacting Easton archery will confirm this.
Sorry. looks like JC already mentioned this.
I swiched from aluminum to carbon, but i'm still a novice. You may be in an "If it ain't broke.." situation. What I like about carbon most is that they're either straight or broken.
Jeff,
In the days of pultruded carbons, I'd agree with "shootist." I remember having a number of Beman Hunters blow apart in the early 90's. When they broke, they turned into a wad of flying splinters. If one broke in an animal, it was a very smart idea to discard any venison around the wound. Those spliters were small and nasty.
But that was then. This is now. Today's cross-weave carbons are no more like pultruded carbons than the '64 Chevy I used to own -- with its steel dash and no seat belts -- is as safe as my wife's '08 Toyota with its airbags galore.
I think if you were really concerned about arrows breaking at the bow and impaling your arm you would be raging against wood if anything.
Yep, the only arrows I've personally had blow up doing the flight shooting has been wood and the only one I've seen go through any ones hand was wood. I did have a home made carbon blow up but that was not a comercially available shaft.....O.L.
Geez I'm not raging about anything,and your right I wont shoot wood either if I can help it and only if I have a good setup for bow hand/arm protection.Think I'm being a little overly cautious?The injury to the bowhand by arrows is more prevalant than you think not only from the shaft itself but from fletching also.I dont think we should live in fear,we should live in awarness. Really I just dont understand that if the new improved carbon shafts are so unlike the older ones why does Eastern have a precautionary statement(I think I checked a link to thier site last week)about using them and how to test them after every shot and of the possibility of them splintering in game.Hey I'm only asking,I'm not trying to freak anyone out,I'm not being argumentative.Personally I will only shoot aluminum given the choice,my reasoning is why should I risk launching a projectile over my hand/arm that needs to bend some to be accurate that is made of many pieces of individual unlike parts attached together when I can use a projectile made of a homogeneous material.I'm sure I am wrong about this,its just my preferance.So once again I am asking you to not get angry over my questions.I wont respond to this topic again just to be sure it doesnt become an argument.
Litigation would be the reason for the warnings by the carbon manufacturers. Only needs to happen once for them to pay through the nose if they don't have the warning label.
QuoteOriginally posted by shootist1952:
Really I just dont understand that if the new improved carbon shafts are so unlike the older ones why does Eastern have a precautionary statement(I think I checked a link to thier site last week)about using them and how to test them after every shot and of the possibility of them splintering in game.
It's called "coverin your corporate backside." Those old pictures circling the internet with a pultruded blown through a guys hand still have impact today...
Most of those recorded injuries dealt with carbons on overdraws also. I'd be curious to hear if any of our almost 20K trad members had ever personally been injured by a carbon shaft out of a tradbow.
I quit bending aluminums 10yrs ago
I shoot 2016s and 3555s both, and cedar too. What I find is that carbons need extra weight added (I've been using the grey tubes 3 Rivers sells) to get adequate penetration on game out of my setup. I am shooting a 46# BW longbow, and a Thunderstick Mag same weight. For stump shooting, which is my main type of practice, I prefer aluminum. If you bend them they can be straightened, most of the time. Carbons tend to split if you hit something too hard with a blunt, and you have to throw them away. Cedars just break and unless you can foot them, they go in the fireplace. All in all, aluminum shafts "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'". Wish Easton still made the XX78 Super Slams shafts in 2016=--they were the toughest ever!
I've shot all 3 and personally prefer carbon, either Carbon Express Heritage or GT 3555s. I prefer the carbon because when they're broken there's no question about it.
I don't know the underlying caron arrow science, but I do know that Vermonster13 and JC are right. If there is any history of risk, any even marginally competent lawyer will tell the manufacturers and dealers to post the warnings. It's not the risk of losing a law suit that's worrying them, it's the risk of having to pay for one or two and having your insurer deny coverage if you didn't post the warning. As a way of resolving disputes litigation is preferable to war, but only barely. Less blood, but the cost is otherwise about the same.
I do not know how many are aware of this fact, carbon shafts can vary in spine according to nock location. A few years ago one of the companys that buid "modern" accessories was developing a new shooting machine and in testing it were suprised to see the deviation there was on point of impact arrow to arrow. They began to spine the arrows making sure all nocks we oriented to the stiff side of the shafts. This made a noticable difference in the groupe the machine shoot.
I offer this for contemplation. Another thought, most target shafting has an aluminum core.
They ain't perfect, that's for sure. It is nice to have so many choices and my choice is aluminum.
Jeff...go shoot some arrows partner.
I'll take that as an order, George. ;)
Im shooting 55/80 Rhino carbons with a 170g tip and some xtra weight up front and total weight is 660 they seem to shoot pardon the pun but straight as an arrow and they really whack the target with authority. Ive only ever shot these carbons with my longbow cooks mountain 50@28 because im new to trad. but ive shot both carbons and aluminum out of my compound , and after a couple dozen aluminum i bought a half dozen carbons to try them out in 2000 i used three for practice and have always kept three aside for hunting other than replacing some fletchings and broadheads i still have the same half dozen arrows. and killed a fair amount of whitetails with them . You cannot match the durability you get with carbons you just cant.its not a preference its scientific.
Legacy aluminum for me........ for all the positive reasons stated previously.
I have shot all 3 and have had all 3 break coming off the bow on release.Each time it was a damaged arrow that should have been checked closer before I shot it.I had a 1916 break into 4 pieces on release.Shooting a coonshoot one night I had a carbon do about the same thing.It was 6 shooting in our group and it got beat up in the dark and I did not see the damage.Wood just does it sometimes if you shoot groups much.Check your arrows well and none of them will happen much.I shoot carbon most followed by wood these days.I have not shot aluminum in a few years.Mainly because I just like carbons best for hunting and have to shoot wood from primitive bows at 3ds.
You mean folks are still shooting aluminum???? :confused:
Well people still shoot bows with just glass on them Terry. :D Aluminum stays in that vein. lol
Hey, I still like aluminum. To each his own. :p :)
Terry....I had a guy shooting a compound bow ask me that exact question about recurves and longbows 8^).
By the way...I still have that AD you sent me and I've shot it a good many times and it's still tickin'. I'll have to return it one of these days. Maybe 8^). If they all worked as well as that Arrow Dynamics there would be more in use.
Its great that we have so many choices in arrow shafts. Everybody has their reasons for preferring one shaft over the other. I've shot owned and shot: aluminum, wood, pc carbon, aluminmum/carbon composite, wrapped/woven carbon, etc. For arrow shafts, carbon is the best performer for a number of reasons, most of which have already been mentioned. That doesn't mean you have to shoot them. I shoot carbons almost exclusively ,but I like wood as well and am starting to play around with some river cane. Heck, I still shoot aluminums occasionally...to remind me how much better carbons are... :D :D :D
David
David
Yeah...that was a joke...glad you guys took it that way. I still shoot wood arrows too, but I think carbons are definately better shafting than aluminums.
Wonder if Alum are made from recycled coke cans??mmmmmmmmmmmm :saywhat: :saywhat: :wavey:Budweiser??? :bigsmyl:
Have tried carbons but still like my aluminum better. They are easy to tune and easy to straighten. I guess I am just to old to change. :biglaugh:
I was one of those guys who declared carbon to be JUNK. All aspects of them were more difficult, if not impossible.
One day while shooting with a friend, my target fell over while it was stuck full of his carbons, and my aluminums.
We stood the target back up, and he dug the dirt out of his nocks, and returned them to his quiver.
My XX75 Platinum aluminum shafts were destroyed.
I gave carbon ANOTHER try...determined to learn, or give up forever.
If you are willing to learn, carbon arrows will bring bow tuning to another level for you.
I remember Bear metric mags, green Gamegetters that the color wore off, Autumn Orange, XX75 camo hunters and so on. I grew up with them and loved them all. My money is now best spent on carbons.
I have a friend that can do the same thing, Terry. Drives me nuts. he can grab my arrows and shoot them out of a 35 pound bow with perfect flight.
I have to tune the snot out of my arrows or I spend all my time wondering if it's my crappy shooting or a waggling arrow causing problems.
Thought I would throw this in since someone mentioned test kits. You can buy single Carbon Express and Gold Tip shafts from Black Widow for $8.00 each and they come with inserts and an assortment of weights. Can't beat that deal!
Ken
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Maybe its just me...or my arrow choice...but I do not have to tune arrows to fit my bows. I do have to figure out the brace height and nock point...but I dont' have to fool with the arrows at all...alls this cutting off, point weights, rear weights, etc....
I shoot Arrow Dynamics Trad Heavies out of all my bows from 55 to 70#s....with head weights from 175 to 250 grains.....same arrow, any head I want, from any bow I want.....always get great flight.
You know, I can shoot my tuned-in aluminum 2016s at 20 yds. and then shoot my too stiff aluminum 2117s at the same time and they all look good in flight with the same point of impact, but let me shoot a bare shafted 2117 and it's over-stiffness shows itself immediately.
So my point is, just because it appears as though you're "always getting great flight" with fletched arrows doesn't necessarily mean you're always correctly spined.
Doug
Doug, from first hand experience, Terry's arrows are an anomaly out of his bows (and even some of mine). Could be he has super clean release (which he does), or great form (which he does), or maybe it's just because he hunts with a funny hat, or whatever, but he can get those trads to shoot out of any bow he owns, mix and match at the drop of a hat. And I don't just mean "shoot", I mean busting nocks and complete passthroughs. That ain't happening with poor arrow flight, least in my experience.
However, I've used his arrows and can't do diddly with them, on his bow or my own...so I'm stuck with tuning. Besides, I kinda like fiddlin with arras.
Your mileage may vary....
OK...to answer the original question....
Carbons are quieter on the shot as they don't have that resonating hollow sound.
Carbons are over all quieter in the field.
Carbons don't come out bent after a pass through from an animal moving on the shot.
Carbons are either straight or broken.
I have found Carbons to be much more durable.
Carbons correct paradox faster.
Carbons have better dimensional stability at impact....less noodling....so they penetrate better.
And...to beat it all....you can rattle in bucks with Carbons. Yep, I've done it.
George...no worries...just pass it along to someone else inquiring sometime.
JC,
Yeah, I understand too, that carbons can be well suited to a wide range of draw weights which is good because there aren't as many choices in spine as there are in aluminum. I would still be curious as to where Terry's bare shafts are grouping in relation to his fletched arrows, though.
I second the comment about his funny hat! I saw him wearing it on the Trad Gang DVD and thought it definitely was, let's say, unique for sure! I sure like his Hush Puppy silencers too. Maybe that's his secret, he has specially made Hush Puppies installed on his string that nobody else can get! AHH HAH!
;) :)
Doug
Funny thing about bareshafting: I can't fathom the innumerable game animals that have been harvested or the number of medals won in tournaments with arrows that have NOT been bareshafted for say....oh...the last 1000 years.
I believe in it for me, but it's not always necessary to get excellent arrow flight.
I have shot wood, carbon and aluminum. In my mind there really is no choice for the guy who wants a great all-around arrow with minimal set up time. Carbons are simply great. I shoot them often, and I love the fact that in a half a day I can have a dozen carbons exactly like the rest of my arrows. But there is something that draws me to wood arrows as well, I enjoy the process of matching and building them myself, though, it is definitely more time consuming. I personally see no reason to shoot aluminum over carbon unless you have been shooting them for years and don't feel like changing what works.
There are a lot of negative characteristics about the older carbons that are not near as prevalent in todays carbons. The variance in spine was mainly because of the inconsistency in wall thickness. That has improved greatly, but it is not yet perfect.
I've seen animals shot with older carbons that splintered so bad inside the animal that a whole quarter of the animal was inedible because of all the tiny carbon splinters. Today, the change in the weave used to make the arrows has improved dramatically, to the point that this is almost a non-factor. Although, like with the variance in spine, it's not 100% perfect.
I shouldn't say this because I'm not certain, maybe somebody will know, but I believe that the Grizzly Stiks still use the "old style weave".
Aluminum arrows fatigue after hitting a target again and again, and are more prone to bending over time. Carbons never fatigue. Aluminums are straighter and more consistent, however, if you can shoot the difference you're in league of shooters that the vast majority of us will probably never see.
I have never found any difficulty in tuning carbon arrows. The methods used for wood and aluminum produce the exact same results for me.
A friend of mine gave me his test results. He just started shooting carbons and was hesitant to shooting them for all the reasons listed in this thread. He chose the Carbon Express Rebel Hunters (I have found Carbon Express to be more consistent than all the others). Here are his results.
Carbon Expres Rebel Hunter 75-90
100 grain brass inserts
13.7 GPI
Arrows cut to 29"
Five inch feathers
Arrow weitht without broadhead = 518.5 grains
Heaviest arrow = 520.1 grains
Lightest arrow = 517.2 grains
Very excited about the straightness of the arrows. Out of two dozen, 83% are less than .003! Only four were .004 and one was .005. Those arrows are now my practice arrows. As you can see, the arrows are much straighter than Carbon Express lists them as.
I'm not really biased to one material.They all have their merits and drawbacks.
To be fully honest I wish the fiberglass arrow would come back.I always liked shooting those best.