Well I tried Carbon arrows for the first time this year and its been an adventure. I'm learning as I go. I shoot a 56lb Black Widow at 28 inches and I thought I had successfully bare shaft tuned my arrows. Here's what I was shooting.
Gold Tip 35/55's
29 3/4 inches
300 grains up front
At fifteen to twenty yards these arrows seemed to hit with my fletched shafts, and as a bonus were in the target almost straight. I thought I had conquered carbon. After shooting for awhile though they seemed to be flying week. When I bare shafted at ten yards they showed a really week indication. I was very confused. However I think this is because of the extreme EFOC at the front of the arrow is correcting the arrows paradox after ten yards. Is this a correct assumption? Are my arrows actually too weak for my bow set up?
I would like to shoot a heavy up front arrow, with no preference on shaft lenght and was thinking about Beeman ICS hunters on my small budget. What spine do I go with. I was thinking 400 spine? Am I in the right ball park? Thanks for your comments-
It's why I shoot Legacy aluminum. Bareshafting has driven more than one person crazy and it is not necessary. I fletch my arrows and cut them down as I shoot them until I get perfect flight with the tip of my choice. Over the years I've learned what will work for me. For carbons, you definitely have to front load because they are all pretty much stiff enough to pry off hubcaps.
Those 400's should work (with feathers) at 29" with about 300 up front. Start them at 31 inches and work in.
Jg, with 300gr up you should be able to use 400s just start bareshafting with arrows full and cut accordingly. Also try shooting at 30 and 40yards before you make any cuts to shafts
35/55's would be intirely too weak out of a 56# bow and 300 grains up front. Try some 55/75's with the same 300 grains, I bet you won't be dissapointed.
P.M. me your mailing address and I'll mail you one to try. It's 31.5" and you can cut it down from there.
Good luck,
Todd
With a 56lb bow that is cut as deep as a BW I would use a 340 spine.You might could get it stiff enough for 300gns before the arrow got too short when tuning.I don't see how you could ever shoot 300gns on a 400 spine.I shoot full length 340s from 49lb longbows with 145gns on the front and I only draw 27".With a 3555 full length I would have to use a nibb point.An 85gn point is still too weak.The arrow you are shooting now would be dangerous for me to shoot from a 45lb bow with that much point weight.It is about the right length for a 100gn point. jmho
I made the mistake of not bareshafting. Expensive and wasteful for me.
I like to bareshaft and slowly reduce length till they are showing slightly stiff and then fletch. Perfect results.
I suppose the addition of the feathers, besides the obvious, is that they reduce the spine just enough to make it right on.
Sorry but would have to whole heartedly disagree with James. The 400s should work well for ya cut to 29"s with 275 to 300 out of the Widow. 340 with 5"s of arrow sticking out front, why? James you could easily go to a .500 cut to 28"s with 145-175 up front. I have shot .340s cut to 29.5"s out of a high performance 63# AT 28" recurve and needed 325 grains up just to get them close and they were still stiff. Back to the original question, yes shoot the 400s out of your Widow and play with point weight. Shawn
I wish those 3555s were a little longer. I'd take them off your hands.
I believe you need 5575 for sure with that bow.
I agree with Shawn. I shoot a 58lb St. Joe River longbow. (These bows are cut as deep as a BW. I can shoot either Beman 500's (same spine as a 35/55 GT with 150 upfront, or what the bow really likes is 55/75 GT cut to 29.75" with 275 upfront.
chris <><
George
At one time carbons were as you say.I don't think they are any more.I shoot nothing but regular aluminum inserts and 125 grn tips.
Of course you need to shoot 300-500 grains up front with near 50% foc to get penetration on anything larger than rabbits. ;)
I shoot the exact same arrow setup as you but use 55-75 and get perfect bare shaft flight. At 20 yards can hit the same place as fletched arrows and are straight in just like the fletched ones. That is from a 55# bow.
the bemen 400 spine should be just the thing...cut at 29 inches... and with 125 to 145 gr point...
Shawn I am experimenting with long arrows to try and learn to gap shoot.I normally shoot 29" arrows.I am so farsited I am trying long arrows just to see the darn things. :)
Maybe the 400s would work but have only seen such heavy points work on arrows on the internet.Never seen anyone actually shooting them.They would never work for me out of a bow that heavy in the 29 3/4" length he is shooting.I normally shoot a 200gn point on one cut that length from my bows 10lbs lighter than his.
R.H....they still don't have the varied spine range that is readily available in aluminum. Carbon manufacturers have seen no need to cater to different spines because the majority of their clientelle shoots cut past center compounds. They have a long way to go and may get there when they realize not everyond wants to add so much weight to the ends to get them to bend. They are not there yet.
The way things are going the aluminum hunting arrows are going to be as limited as the carbons when it comes to spine range.
George
I agree with you and sometimes I hate change as much as anyone but as Vermonster suggests aluminum may soon be history only.
Now with carbons a little length change is all it takes to get that variation in spine.It is not necessary or IMHO advisable to take a carbon and cut it to a short or predetermined length and then try to add enough point weight to weaken spine so that it will tune.When you do that you get exactly the condition you express concerning carbon arrows.
In my experience with carbons,which I love to shoot,it takes a "LOT" of tip weight to make up for a "LITTLE" length change.I don't know for sure but I would guess an inch would equate to a hundred grains or more.I do know that even a quarter inch length change will effect spine enough that I can easily see the change when tuning.
Aluminums are just plain noisy to shoot too, they have a funny ping like carbon limb bows, not a bad thing i just don't like it. James I have experimented for 6-7 years and still have to disagree with you and i have shot carbons out of over 100 different custom bows over that time. I guess we will agree to disagree. I think you may be getting an opposite reaction than ya think. I have recently done some filming and even a carbon that is way overspined will correct itself fairly quickly as it recovers from paradox so much faster than alum. or wood. Bareshaft with point of impact method and see what I mean. Shawn
Thanks for the Help guys...The information you can find with this group is wonderfull. I will let you know how it works out
QuoteIt's why I shoot Legacy aluminum. Bareshafting has driven more than one person crazy and it is not necessary. I fletch my arrows and cut them down as I shoot them until I get perfect flight with the tip of my choice. Over the years I've learned what will work for me. For carbons, you definitely have to front load because they are all pretty much stiff enough to pry off hubcaps.
Not necessarily true. I shoot CX 250's with 150 grains up front out of a 54 pound longbow. They paper tune perfectly with no additional weight.
The varied spines you talk about aren't necessary with carbon. Aluminum is very fussy about recovery from paradox.
5575's for sure with that much weight up front. I have a 56 lb @ 28 Black Widow SA III and shoot 3555's but only have 200 grains up front. The fly good but I get they may not with another 100 grains added. Can you cut them down any to make them stiffer?
Too hard for me to keep up with. To me Traditional = feathers and wood. The only metal is in the point.
When I die off will wood arrows be gone also?
I have tried all the other stuff, just could not see where it shot a whole lot better, cost a whole lot more and just seemed to keep you wanting whatever was the newest thing. Seems the way society is going with everything.
No problem Shawn.We both know what works for us.That is all that matters.
Well guys I thought I would let you know what I came up. I bought a three pack of .400 spined shafts and found that even with 150 grains of weight that was still weak. A .340 spined arrow with a 150 grains up front(point and insert) at 30 inches bareshafted good. Unfoutunatly thats a lighter arrow than I wanted to shoot(460 grains), with no real weight up front.
I tried an alluminum 2219 at thirty inches with 170 grains up front that flew really well. I like it better because I'm pushing 590 grains. I checked the Dynamic spine calculator and both arrows were right arround 78 lbs. Thats a stiff arrow! I was really suprised to see the results. I half wonder if I have a form issue thats prompting having to shoot such a stiff arrow. Or maybe my 56lb black widow has a shelf cut issue? If I try carbon I think that I'll have to shoot a .300 spine to get the weight up front I want. Well thats were I'm at. Thanks for your inputs.
For whatever reason, Black Widows all seem tot ake more spine than expected.
How long are you leaving the arrows bud?
I did not think you would ever be able to shoot 300gns on the front at that length.Nothing wrong with your form.
Justin, I'm shooting a 52lb Widow PSA. I'm shooting CX Heritage 250's cut to 29 1/4" with 225gr up front and they bare shaft perfect. They will shoot right with my fletched shafts. I could get the 150's to fly right with 225gr up front but I had to cut them almost and inch shorter and they didnt weight as much as I wanted.