Trad Gang

I scared the living crap out of myself about 2 hours ago.  I was out stumpin' with my 5 year old daughter, and had an 8 strand string completely give out on me at full draw.  It broke about halfway between the top loop and the serving.  No cuts!  No wear!  It just plain broke!  I was lucky enough to be shooting one of my bows with a hinge in the middle.  I think this prevented any damage to me or the bow.  The stored energy bent the bow foreward instead of acting like a dry fire.  It just pinched my fingers on my bow hand a little.  I was still holding the arrow and the bow after the whole thing happened.  Thank god that I know enough to have my kids stand at least 10 yards behind me at all times.  My little one will never question why she has to stand back ever again.  I think that I may switch to BCY string materials from here on out.  If anyone knows a good supplier for D-97 I could use some help finding other colors than black and white.  Oh ya, the bow that I was shooting was 55#@28".  By no means a heavyweight to be exploding strings.  Thanks for any advice and fo listening.  JD

Glad your ok.

I'm glad that my bow and kid are OK.  It was my copperhed bow.  Them there skins are 'spensive!!!

Wow that is scary stuff glad you are ok!

Was that the bow that was just on here that you skinned? You couldn't have shot to many arrows out of it yet.

Yeah Jim, thats crazy! You sounded as shook up as I was when we were talking on the Phone! I'm glad were all OK!    :campfire:

Thats the bow Ryan.  I'm glad that I only have 3 fingers on my bow hand to pinch.  That is a completely different story though.  JD

BCY Fibers.com is what your lookin for. Sure am glad yall didnt get hurt!!

I won,t be getting any more strings made with this material either, same thing happened to me last summer, new 14 strand ts plus on my longbow broke in the exact spot yours did. Just ripped it apart, and this was made by a very good string maker.

Hey Dan-  Did you almost soil yourself too?

Are you going to stick with 8 strands or are you going up closer to 12?

Jim...ya know it was that strong "Michigan" Osage that took the string out!!!

Holy buckets I'm glad you and your daughter are okay.

Is "Not Worthy" checking out alright?

Josh

P.S.  You need to look out for that hand...it's been thought a lot!   :knothead:  

Josh

I couldn't even find a scratch on the bow.  I am planning to go to at least a 12 strand and switch string materials.  Everyone always asked me why I didn't try a smaller strand string.  I answered the question a few hours ago.  In a completely perfect word the single strand break strength may be high enough to handle the bow, but we live in a hunting world where all variables are thrown at you at once.  I will probably go with a 16 to 20 strand with the ts-plus.  I may try a 12 with the D-97.  JD

Exactly why I do not like skinny strings.

Danny

Glad you're ok. Yeah, I went back to 12-14 strand after trying some 6 strand. The 6 strand was quiet and quick. But I just felt like I was walking on thin ice!

One more thing...there were less than 300 shots on that string.  I'm sticking to the theory that "If it isn't broken, why fix it" from now on.  I think that our obsession with speed and new tricks gets a little out of hand at times.  I have fallen prey to this thinking as well.  I will definitely recall this event the next time that I think about reinventing the wheel.

I've had string failure also w/ T-S plus when using 10 strans or less.I'm now shooting 15 stans w/ 60 lbs.I've shot 12 but like the serving thickness of 15 better.
Sorry about your mishap

Jim,

 Out of curiosity were the loop's padded and what if anything did you do for nock fit?.

The loops were padded.  I had bow hush and hush puppies installed.  It was double served to fit my nock.

Had the same thing happen last week while shooting my shrew, except it broke on the lower side just as I released the string. Got a pretty good mark on my face from the string, and the nock on the string dinged the glass on my bow. No idea what type string it was,
it came with the bow when I bought it used.

I have never heard of a D-97 string breaking.  All of the problemed strings seem to be Brownell materail.   I hope I don't have any customers with problems.  JD

Glad to hear that you and your daughter came out of the experience unscathed, at least physically.  The problem with the small strings is if the bundles aren't under equal tension when made, one bundle, i.e., half the string, does all the work.  Thus, you may have been shooting a 4-strand string in effect.  It's very hard to get tension equal when laying in a string.  That's why I opt for 12 or 14 strand strings. Little less performance, but higher margin of safety.

I like a 12 strand D97 with .024 Halo,strong enough for upto a 100# bow.I shoot 12 strands on my bows from 50# to 83#.It may be alittle overkill for the lighter bows but it gives me the same nock fit for all my bows.

Sorry Jim,

So caught up in your string hazard that I never offered, Glad that your Daughter + You are OK!.
I thought maybe you were experimenting without the loop's being padded and or the nock fell off right at release?.
Orion I believe that you have solved the problem.

All Good,
Don;

Glad no one was hurt but I've never heard of anyone or any bow being hurt by a string failure. At full draw is the lowest tension a string has in the entire shot sequence. I'm sure a little Tide will take care of the skivies!   :)  

With others comments it sure sounds like a material problem. That's why I pointed out over and over in the skinny string thread that the only material I had experience with was DF-97 and experiment at your own risk! We CAN NOT trust what the manufactures tell us on the strength of this stuff.....O.L.

Yep it seems to be if you go below 10 or 12 strands with the Brownell products (Xcel in my case) they won't hold.  I haven't heard of any failures with the D97 either, but I have seen 6 strand 450+ strings blow.

I thought I would try out a skinny string and just made a 10-strand TS+ with extreme padding, but I am only shooting 45lbs.  Hopefully that is safe for my weight.  My bow has never been this quiet, I would hate to go back to 14 strands.

Any material can break if you push it past it's limits. Too much pushin goin on these days. I've been using TS1 plus since it came out. Tried the skinnies and went back to 15 strands and stayin put. Like JD said earlier...if it aint broke dont fix it.

Love the D-97 that Chad makes me. 14 strands.

Glad all is ok JD.

Skinny's for babes not bow strings. Glad your ok, it's a big price to pay for few FPS.

J.D., I've had that happen. Scary moment to say the least. Did it break where you had the string silencers tied in?

I think "OL" is correct in saying not to trust manufacturing claims, bought some new latest and greatest fishing rods made out of arimid fiber, super light and great, after I broke 3 or 4 of these rods on hooksets, I called the company to tell them they had a problem with this material, I was told I had a attitude problem, Hmmmm.

The string didn't break near the silencers at all.  It was about halfway between the bowhush and the hushpuppies.  If strings are breaking and we cant trust manufacturers claims, them why are we all risking it?  I'm just glad that the string broke on me and not one of my customers.

wow!!! man you was luckey bugger that.

Yep Dan, "arimid fiber" isn't a good material for anything other then body armor!

Got to be a line somewhere at both ends of the spectrum. It's like having a cliff near where you hunt. If you are afraid of falling over and stay 2 miles away, you're robbing yourself of a whole lot of real estate!  :)  1/4" poly rope would be plenty safe. Personally I'd blame the material and use something else.

Hunt It, I'm doing it for quiet and shooting qualities, not FPS....O.L.

I have to agree that the material may be the problem.  I had 2 new TS+, 14 strand strings about a year ago for one of my bows.  They both broke after less than a months shooting with a 55 lb bow.  I returned to the materials I have not had problems with.

I used to shoot an Oneida Eagle Bow, its the compound with the recurve outer limbs. I lost count of how many strings I blew up on that bow...its something that you never get used to and it will scare the crap out of you!!! Some of the strings failed in the loop and some were at the nockset. These were 12 to 14 strand Fast Flight. String failures never worried me as much as having a limb or riser fail...that can get nasty in a hurry. I don't think alot of people think about how much stored energy they are holding in their hands when they shoot a bow. That's probably a good thing.

David

I have a bud whose D97 string bew up on his Widow. The string came from BW. That broke his riser nearly in 2. I have made several of the skinny strings out of TS1 plus and shot them with no problem. In fact I have used B-50 skinny's with no problem but...I personally do not trust them because it is pushing the limits on any material. IMO the skinny strings are not worth the risk no matter what material is used and JD can testify to it. I would agree it was the material but I would disagree with OL about blaming the material. TS1 plus is an excellent material but the skinny strings are asking a bit too much out of it as with any material.

My string fingers don't like skinny strings.  Even with the 46-48# bows I shoot it causes too much stress on my fingers.  I use nothing but the various versions of TS-1+ and TS+ on my bows, all of the 75+ I've owned and sold or traded since I found out about TS-1.  I've never had a problem with them.  But as noted above I don't shoot skinny strings.

Bill

I've been making and shooting TS-1 for a few years now. Most recently been trying out an 8 strander for about 3 months now.

Hunted here late season took a doe, went to TX and killed a buck,doe, and hog, and have dragged it through serious briars with Shawn and the gang on several rabbit hunts and killed a bunny too.

But I've been seriously thinking about going back to my 12 strand string on this bow the last couple weeks. This might be the clincher...

I'm not giving up on TS-1 at all, I love it. But just feel like for hunting purposes it's time to stay on the safer side......

I'll second what Danny said. I won't use one below 12 strands after having a skinny one break on me.

I also like the D97 strings that Chad makes. i can live without the benifits that skinny strings have. No disrespect to those who use them.
Glad you all are ok JD

Years ago i had one fail on release shooting at a hog the arrow went about 10 feet and landed on the ground. I looked at the arrow and didnt even know what happened. the hog was still there so i grabbed another arrow and tried to nock it, then i knew what happened. the string gave way right at the nock point.

I dont remember what material it was and i think it was just past due for a string change and not a material problem.

I use D97 and have never had a problem with it, except for the broadhead issue i had last week while hunting, made for a long walk back to the truck

Do you need to pad loops for 12 strand?

I know there is a lot of chatter about the low strand string goin on lately.  Sorry,  all my bows go out with a 16 strand FF or Dyneema string.

My new Cari-Bow Taiga came with a skinny string,shot it a couple of times did not like the feel, plus they just scare me so changed it to a 14 strand 450+, bow is quieter and just as quick. Quietest recurve I own, did not even have to put bow hush on it. Like I said in my earlier post, just do not like them.

Danny

I've been thinking of a 10 strand 8125 String on my 46lb recurve, am I "safe"...

Any input from you guys would be appreciated..

Thank you,

I'll stick with my stock Horne's 14 strand 450+ ... They work just fine, No sense pushing the envelope ... Just not worth it to me ...

I've made my own strings since 1955 or so....always used 12 strnad b-50 for bows up to 70# (ony had one stirng bread beccaurse I installed a nok set too tight) until I got my DAS bows and tried the 8125 and TS-1. I like the TS-1 better but still made a 12 strand string. However, nock fit is an issue so I made some 14 strand endless strings this winter and have noticed no change in performance. In addition, since making my own strings is fairly inexpensive my bow gets a new one each Spring and again in the Fall....actually I make a new one just prior to the Muzzy and that is the string that I use for the hunting season. The Spring string becomes the  backup in my quiver. Like someone mentioned above, using those skinny stings is like walking on thin ice and my bows are too expensive (most are actually irrepalceable, now) so I decided not to take the chance with the skinny string thread. I think it is asking for trouble. in the long run.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Never seen a broke string hurt anybody, never seen one hurt a bow...Sounds like some good documented cases of some very large strings breaking, what caused them? Personally I'm not going to put a governor on my Jeep because someone else crashed one.....O.L.

What I get out of this isn't not to use smaller strings, but not to use TS1 for smaller strings.


Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Jeff,

No material was designed for the skinny string. Both of the major material makers have recommendations for their material and none of them are for making strings that small. Personally I would not make one out of any material. Having said that I am convinced the modern materials can handle skinnier strings than recommended but 6-8 strands is pushing it and IMO you are asking for trouble.

Also, no disrespect intended to anyone who advocates or makes skinny strings.

heydeerman, Just some info, there are a lot of bowmakers out there that use "skinny strings". Ron La Clair has been putting 6 strand 450+ strings on his Shrews for years among others.

Its not a new trend.

It's all relative, 6-df-97 on a 50# is not skinny but on a 60+ it would be. I just find it interesting that modern strings get blamed for anything that goes wrong when it's really our understanding or should I say misunderstanding is the real problem.

WT, "Its not a new trend." Nope goes back decades if not centuries...5:1...250# string for a 50# bow. If we don't know what strength our materials are, that's a problem. Folks feel "lack of stretch" is the reason modern strings perform better and the reason they are harder on bows...Both myths...Think about it..If you take any material and double it...What are you doing to the "stretch" property? Cutting it in half at least..So a 12 string string on your 50# bow compared to a 6 will be twice as hard on the bow, not easier as some suggest..And the fatter string should perform better....If "stretch" is the problem/reason...Obviosuly it's not.

Jeff, "What I get out of this isn't not to use smaller strings, but not to use TS1 for smaller strings."

Exactly!  :) ...O.L.

wtpops,

I am aware of that. Ron LeClair also uses 450+, the strongest material available, as you note. I owned a Samarai for a while and replaced the stock string with a 15 strand TS1Plus. It was noticably quieter.

There are some that use them and like them. That's why I wanted to clarify no disrespect intended in my last post. Most know more than me and I readily admit that.  :knothead:

Heydeer, Oh it's not a smartness thing, just experiences.."I owned a Samarai for a while and replaced the stock string with a 15 strand TS1Plus. It was noticably quieter."

For example, that is directly opposite what others are seeing, smaller is quieter..So how could both be accurate?...Beats me?...Going from real skinny to real heavy is the same thing as going from 10gpp to 11 or 12...Sure it's quieter but for the wrong reasons...O.L.

I have never read any manufacturer's recommendation based on breaking strength of strands. ONLY for nock fitment.
They say X amount of strands to ensure proper nock fit, not to prevent breakage.

From the BCY website.Make from it what you will. :)


Question: If I reduce the number of strands to improve arrow speed, should I be concerned that the strength of the bow string is reduced and therefore dangerous?

Answer: With almost all modern materials used in the manufacture of bowstrings, the strength is well in excess of the maximum tension applied to the string. Consider this – A popular number of strands for Formula 8125 material is 18. The breaking strength of a single strand of Formula 8125 exceeds 100 lbs. Using 100 lbs as the criteria, the total strength of 18 strands is 1800 lbs. Of course when set up on a bow, the strands are split at the loops and a static load test shows that approximately 40% of the strength is lost at this point. This still leaves a breaking strength of over 1000 lbs.

It has been calculated that on a high poundage bow, say 75 – 80 lbs, it is possible to generate approximately 200 lbs total tension while drawing. Compare this to the breaking strength over 1000 lbs mentioned above and there is at least a 5 – 1 safety factor.

Reducing the number of strands is normally ratioed to the draw weight of the bow, therefore on lower poundage bows, the 5 – 1 safety factor will remain or perhaps increase.

With the newer, smaller diameter materials like 452, the single strand breaking strength is under 100 lbs but many more strands are used so at least a 5 – 1 safety factor is maintained.

Basically, using the manufacturers recommended number of strands x the breaking strength of the string, will assure you have a string with much more than adequate strength and if you decide to drop a couple of strands to increase speed, the strength of the finished string will still way exceed the maximum poundage generated by the bow.

Breaking strengths is rarely, if ever, the cause of a string failure. More likely causes are –
· condition of cam wheels (burrs)
· over twisting
· extremely tight serving/compressive failure
· type of release
· lack of string care and maintenance (lubrication)
· abrasion

I've not followed all this "skinny string" stuff...I've seen the threads and taken a peek or two, but reading James' response there with the manufacturers info got me thinking.

They show a static load rating...shooting an arrow is a very dynamic event.  Obviously the static and dynamics loads are different.  Kind of like static and dynamic spine.  Maybe something to think about.

steve o- that's a valid point. i wonder what forces are on a bow string when it slams down at brace height. maybe we need to look at the dynamic forces involved. if they are greater than the static forces during the draw then that is the force that strings need to be designed for.

just had a thought.
it is generally accepted that dacron stretches during the shot. so it would be logical to think that the greatest amount of stretch occurs when it reaches brace height after being released from full draw. so does that mean that the maximum amount of force applied to a string is at brace after release or at full draw. i wouldn't think a string is at full stretch at full draw. it seems we've been basing our string design parameters on the lesser of two forces.

but maybe i'm just a dumb @$$

Well it does say an 8olb bow can generate up to 200lbs tension.I would think most of that is because of the more energy stored and cams rolling over.A stickbow would never create that much even on a heavy bow.Also the loss of 40% they speak of is not the case when you are useing flemish strings with built up loops.The loops would be stronger than the string itself.They are talking about haveing 9 strands in the loops of an 18 strand endless string.Useing this and the fact even they quote the 5 to 1 safty margin small strings of the right material should be no problem on most stickbows. Just what I get out of reading it. :)

James, all that reenforces my point! Steve and Ozy, that was all covered pretty extensively in another skinny string thread. Max tension is at brace height before and at the end of the shot. Full draw is the least tension. That's why it's so odd one would fail at full draw. Something was amiss...O.L.

 (http://www.bowmaker.net/images/strten.jpg)

Yeah OL I use 8 strand strings because with my halo serving they fit my nocks just they way I like them.No heating or sanding on nocks to get a good fit and don't have to double serv or add strands under the serving.Plenty strong,easy strings to build and makes a quiet bow.I am not concerned at all with a string breaking unless it gets cut.jmo

One of the possible reasons listed in the BCY post for string breakage was over twisting, could it be that since some have to twist the string a lot (takes quite a few twists to change brace height with a skinny string) to get proper brace height that will lead to failure with skinny strings?

OL,

That's an interesting chart.  Could you provide the rest of the information?  Like how it was developed and on what bow.  How the measurements were taken?  etc?

The chart doesn't show what we intuitivly would believe.  Of course that's not the first time that when things are properly researched and tested that the paradigm changes.


Mike

how can more tension be on the string at resting brace height.  At rest a string may only have 30 to 40 #'s of tension.  At full draw, the same bow may have 55 to 60 #'s of tension.  Common sense can tell you that much.  At brace after the string is released I completely agree.  If we are all gonna get so technical and scientific, we might as well throw wheels back on our bows and go hunt genetically altered animals.  All of this science BS is gonna end up taking the fun out of why we started doing this in the first place.  WE WANTED THE CHALLENGE.  This is a traditional hunting forum, not a science class.  I started the post to see if anyone else has had problems with TS-Plus and to share an experience that I had while out stump shooting to enjoy this great sport.  Is no one gonna be happy until someoen invents a completely adjustable "traditional" bow with 80% letoff.  JD

It's not inuitive to me either, but I'm sure the measurement was taken using a tension gauge inline with the string which will show the tension on the string.  Remember that the draw weight is not on the same vector as the string or the limbs, so it may not be a proportional relationship.

At brace height the limbs are being pulled in towards the center of the bow, when drawing the bow the limbs are pulled in towards the bow and back towards the archer.  Thinking about that makes the data make a little more sense.

JD,

As a bowyer I would think you would want and need to understand the science at least a little to know not just that your string broke but why.  Especially when you are sending strings with your bows.

I find that the science and innovation is what makes the traditional bow as simple as it is.

Mike

Well said Mike!!!  :thumbsup:

Mike-  I like understanding and expiramenting, and even trying to improve.  The only string that has ever broke is that 8 strand.  When working with wood and glass I find it more of an art than a science.  The beauty and challenge of traditional bows is what draws people to the sport, not the speed and technology.  Your bows are a work of art.  Not a work of science.  Black Widow sells more bows than any other traditional bow manufacturer out there.  They have done this by tradition.  if you are to look at their limb profile, it has changed little or none for the pas 50 years.  If I didn't build my own bows, I would probably own bows by every sponsor on this site.  Because they are works of art.  Your bow would be at the top of my "to buy" list becayse of what you have accomplish with all wood.  I would like to know the minimum breaking strength on string material, but the graphs and charts don't represent every bow.  All bows shoot and draw different.  What works for one may not work for another.  As stated on the opening page of this web site "debate is good, as one sword sharpens the other".  JD

JD,

Actually all of our bows (single string) DO shoot and draw the same cycle wise.  The force draw curves may be a bit different, but if you plot them all on charts, they will look the same as far as draw cycling.  The c-bows are TOTALLY different animals though.  Just because something goes against our preconceived ideas or accepted science, doesn't mean it is wrong and should be ignored and lumped into (NONTRADITIONAL).  Just because the King says he has new invisible clothes doesn't make him any less naked.  

If you don't want to be technical and scientific, you really ought to quit making those Horribly NONTRADITIONAL HIGH TECH bows you build.  Everybody knows that you are using that horribly scientific (GLASS/EPOXY/and "gasp" SYNTHETIC FIBER).   :biglaugh:

I build 12 strand 8125 strings commercially, but have done SOME testing of lesser strand strings.  I have only seen one string BLOW up, and it was a 4 strand 8125 that I BLEW UP on my stretching jig at just over 250#.  I personally like 8-12 strands with .030 Halo, but that doesn't mean those are the only RIGHT combos.  I even shoot a 12 strand 8125 string on my Osage Self Bow with NO TIP OVERLAYS!  LOL!!

OL,

I would love to see the info that goes with that chart as well.  If you could email it to me that would be AWESOME!!!!  I knew from simple Physics that was the truth of tension applied, but have never seen real world test results to prove it.

I guess I should have re-phrased the way I worded some things.  I'm just saying for me, that that shooting a traditionl bow takes me away from technology.  I have worked around computerized machines for 18 years.  From everything in the past 5 pages I have learned not to trust ts-plus in a skinny string.  Also that BCY materials is the way to go.  Whether the string broke at full draw, or upon the releases, it still broke and I learned a lesson.  Thanks to all who gave helpful advice and pm'd me on suppliers for materials.  JD

Hey J.D. Im still glad that your ok and the little one! Thanks for your input.

So what is the advantage of shooting a lower strand string?

Mike

Hmmmm....lots of camp chatter lately also about skinny strings blowing.

Just because someone hasn't 'heard of anyone getting hurt' doesn't mean someone hasn't or wont...that goes for the bow as well.

"We CAN NOT trust what the manufactures tell us on the strength of this stuff.....O.L."...There you have it.  The last thing I want to worry about is my equipment being borderline.

Most jeeps don't come with a governor....but they do come with a roll bar for a reason.

I'll take the roll bar thank you....as it never kept me from getting through the mud, but sure made me feel better on the road.

Well put Tarz, well put.

This happened to me about a month ago on my super shrew. 8 strand Stock String.. Broke right where the string is served Upon release.. I had No Idea what Happened.. Thought I hit a branch.Then I looked at my bow.. Nothing Happened to it but... Shocked me..

For me this is like shooting your bow with a 200 grain arrow. WHY take the chance??  BILL