Trad Gang

what size group should all your shots go into for hunting med/big game at 20M and closer? just trying to set some practise goals.

I'd say 6 inches on deer/hogs.  Of course the deer we have around here are smallish.

ive convinced myself that 6" is?  :)

I've convinced myself better than mine.  :)

What's a good group?   A group of ONE in a paper plate.  Shooting nice groups of arrows in your back yard doesn't translate too well to hunting circumstances.  i.e. your not likely to get more than 1 shot, occasionally 2 at the same animal.  Best practice,IMO, is roving or taking 1 shot at that plate in your yard, and then put the bow up, whether you missed or hit-- that completes the session. Multiple sessions like this, at various ranges, angles, etc. through out the day, will train you to make good on the first shot-- this will give you the discipline to confidently, make good on the first arrow on game-- the ones after  do Not matter. Have you ever noticed how easy it is to hit the mark w/ the second arrow, even if you miss the first-- its easy, you know what adjustment to make, and now that you have it dialed in, you can just pack the next 12 in there if you want-- but What's this got to do w/ taking animals? - You're not trying to shoot groups on them-- you're trying to get that first arrow in the chest.  Because thes bows are so much fun to shoot its difficult to put it up after one shot-- its like taking just 1 bite of something you really like. If you vary the distance and angle on every single shot, and only allow your self to keep shooting if you had hit the mark, on the first arrow,  it will give you incentive to focus, knowing that you don't have to put the bow up, until you miss the first shot of one of these varied range/angle shots.  I think, a most will agree, that roving is the best way to learn to shoot -- Unfortunately, roving, is not practical for most of us, on a daily basis-- The one shot backyard practice is the likely the next best opt.--Unless of coutse you have your own 3D course.

What size paper plate?  If you're talking about a standard 9" plate, I'd say that's way too lenient.  Missing your intended point of impact by 4.5", in any direction, can lead to some awful long and possibly empty-ended bloodtrails.

I get shoeboxes or other boxes of similar size and stuff them with anything that will stop and grab an arrow (old packing, cardboard, foam, etc) duct tape them closed (use 2 million and one for duct tape) and stake them around the yard with damaged arrows. I'm on a semi wooded slope, so I shoot uphill, downhill and if I shoot the lenth of the lot flat. If I stand at one end, then each of next shots gets longer. Then I pick them up and start back at the other end. One arrow per box. That's it. Some days I'm sharper than others.

sam

First shot is all that counts.  Chuck's got it.  3D is the ticket. First shot on each target at the next 3D shoot will tell you.  You might consider keeping score like this: write down how many you hit it the "vital" area and how far away they were. It's a bit sobering but also very motivating. Numerical scores don't tell me much - I like to dwell on what percentage I made "killing" shots on and how far away they were.  I'll be the first to admit that 3D isn't anywhere near the same as hunting, but you've got to be a shooter first.  Make the first shot count.

1/2".  Oh no, that's for the 25-06.  yeah, I think 6" is reasonable.  Now if I could just remember how long a meter is.  39" ?????

Hey guys,

This is the age old argument isn't it?  I gotta say, I will not take a shot I haven't practiced...a lot!  And in a lot of different ways.

The "will kill" zone on white tail and most medium size game is basically a 5" wide a 10" tall spot behind the shoulder.  For that reason, I have a self imposed 665 rule.  If I can't put 6 out of 6 in a 5" spot at a given rage, I don't shoot that far.  And most of the 6 had better be in or near the 3" dot or I'm not real comfortable.  I owe it to the animal I hunt!

For me there is no worse feeling than wounding an animal and not recovering it.  I'm not a killer, I'm a hunter.  So if I can't recover an animal, whether it's upland birds or deer, it will be for some other reason than me taking a marginal shot.  

And since the subject has come up and we are opining here, effective shooting of any kind is all about muscle memory and technique.  Whether you shoot targets in the back yard, a 3-D range or whatever.  Repetitive shooting using good technique (controlled breathing, consistent anchor, that kind of stuff) at random distances and as often as you can, will get you prepared to succeed when you hunt.  If I'll be shooting from a seat I practice from a seat.  Or my knees or a stand or whatever.  

And like chuck and others suggest, practice at purely instinctive shooting is very important too.  After all, unless you're shooting with sights, stick and string shooting is about as instinctive as shooting gets.  That's the appeal for me.

After that it's just a matter of controlling your nerves and the variables of the field.  Which is the real trick to a successful harvest for most people.  As has been suggested, you usually only get one shot.  So make sure you can hit it every time.

All that said, ozy.  If I can't group 4 or 5 inches at a given range I don't shoot that range. Of course, if I'm squirrel hunting...that target is gonna need to be a touch smaller.  

I know.  Why didn't I just say that.  Sorry.  ;~)

Clinton, in my opinion, it depends on the size of the kill zone of the animal you are hunting. If it's a whitetail, then 6-8". If it's a turkey, 3-4". Elk, 12-14" and so on. I don't mean that in a smart*** way, but just that your level of accuracy must vary with the size of the animal you are hunting. Of course, if you have groups that are suitable for turkeys, then you are deadly on just about anything.

i'd say a within 5 inches of the hair that your aiming at......one shot at a time......

You can sort of do roving in your back yard.

I like to take 500ml or 340ml plastic drinks bottles and chuck them around the lawn, hide them in flower beds and hang them from trees where there is a suitable backstop. When you hit them it makes a satisfying thunk and often moves them on a ways. If the bottom of the bottle is facing you it makes a smaller and more challenging target.

Judo points or rubber blunts are a must if you don't want to spend your day searching for arrows buried in the lawn.

The smaller the target, the more you focus and your shooting generally should improve.

I have also used the one arrow at a time as above and think it is a great aid to getting that first shot in the right place.

At different times all aspects of your shooting should be worked on, such as bare bale and concentrating on form, release, follow through etc. Get really close to the butt, pick a spot and then close your eyes for a while before drawing and releasing. Really concentrate on what you are doing, without visual interruption. You'll be surprised at the results sometimes.

For medium game, I use the inside ring of a standard 9" paper plate to determine my proficiency at a given (or unknown) range.  

For bunnies and such, I practice with softballs and baseballs.  Generally with targets that small you get a clean kill, or a clean miss.  O'course, sometimes you have to charge your target and give it the heel.

But that's the nature of the game, and part of hunting ethically...hunters need to know what they have to do if a shaft is sunk less than ideally.

It happens to the best of the best more often than you might think.

I do well with the one shot deal. A guy that's been helping my learn will have me shoot one shot then set it down. He'll shoot then the grandkids then I'll take another shot. Usually 10-15 minutes between shots. My groups have been getting it the 3"-4" range at 15M. It's VERY good practice. It's not rare now to pull arrows out with one hand too.

Give it a "Shot".....hehe!

yep. One shot, in the lungs. The rest only show consistant form.

Every morning for weeks before my bear trip I will go out on my deck and take that one shot cold. Prior to deer hunting I will take shots from a tower at 3D of varying distances. You're not really practicing for deer hunting in my area if you are not taking shots from a stand.  3D courses don't really replicate deer hunting for me but they are great prep for hog and javelina etc. I'll take multiple shots at plain old butts when I am working on release problems etc.

There is value in group size as Biggie says, it shows consistency of good form.. The first arrow is always the most important.
Fred used the 20 arrow game.. First arrow scores 105, all the rest 5 ea  total 200
Many say 6" is a Good Group.. I say 4" is a good group at 20. 6" is "OK"  4" is better.. Under 4" is good to really Good.

the size of a soda bottle cap a@20 yrds should do it

One of the best ways I've found to practice is roving in the woods.  I really don't like standing on level ground and shooting at a spot on a bale.  I usually carry a few old golf balls with me to shoot at.  Set em on a stump, roll em on the ground etc.

Light weight targets that are durable.  Use blunts or target pts.

I also shoot at a lot of small stobs sticking up.  Nothing more then a couple inches in diameter.

This is my way of saying replicate the shot you plan on taking and aim small.

Mike

I like shooting so groups save on walking. :)

I find shooting 300 rounds in the yard give a good gauge of what we can and can't do when the one shot pops up.You shoot 60 arrows and average them out and most every time you will shoot in that range on other targets as well.The guys I consider good hunting shots and all round shooters will average somewhere around 240 and up.A 240 is about a 6" group.Shooting groups just refines form and that is what it takes to make any shot.The first or the last.jmo

i realise the first shot is the only one that counts in a hunting situation. it's the 1000 tight groups you shot before that gives you the confidence to make that shot. at the moment 10m is about it for me then, sometimes.  :(

I'd like think you would be able to hit a grapefruit,but for most a soccer ball is more real world. Except for small game, that will kill most game that we all hunt.

I agree that the first shot is the one that tells you where you are at.  The next 100 help get you to the level that you want to be.  I think that it has been touched on but I will give my 2 cents.  If you shoot the same target at the same distance and angle all the time you will get very good at that shot, however it might not translate into other shots.  The only way to get good at having your brain do all the math it needs to is give it multiple problems ie: shooting different distance/targets/angles/elevation and so on.  Walking in the woods and blasting things near and far will do that.  

So I agree first shot counts but you need to shoot a lot to get good. Thats just what I think though.

Allan

Groups are OK; but don't mean much for hunting. Roving and stumping are my fav forms of practice; one arrow at a time-sometimes two.

I like to hit within a couple of inches of where I picked at ranges under 20 and I'd say several inches at ranges over 20 whether shooting one or more arrows.  I find I do a little better shooting one arrow with a judo point at stuff on the ground at any range though.  Maybe I focus more.

I recently covered all of my targets with burlap so I'm shooting blank bales and find it really makes you concentrate hard and accuracy seems to improve.

I've decided that a soft ball sized group is what I strive for, for anything under 20 yards. In my mind a paper plate sized group is too lineint(sp).

i agree with chigar 4inch groups consistenly or its too far

Another perspective:

When you know to pass on a shot, you know you're there.

Understanding one's limitations and all that jazz.  

IMO, knowing when to pass is more important.  That whole thing with respecting your prey begins there; I'd rather a good shot to a bad ending any day!

Where are you guys with the 4" and smaller groups at during 3ds and other shooting events/Out shooting stumps?  ;)  Sure we all pile a group of arrow together tight enough to knock a few nocks off at times.I don't consider that any kind of average.Just a good round or two.Before long in this thread we will see some guys averaging 2" or so.They never show up at 3ds either.  :biglaugh:

Here how I do it.  5 inch plate. Shoot only one arrow from each position. Example. 15yard broadside, 20 yard quartering, 30 kneeling........ If you can keep you arrows from everywhere inside your limited in the plate you will have extreme confidence at the moment of truth.

i'm with you james. to be able to shoot 4" groups at 20m all the time, that masters of the barebow stuff. i can't do it over and over at 10m yet let alone twice that. i've only been shooting for a year so you could probably tell me to go jump.

Where you feel confident is all that matters.  I think the rest is trying to improve to where you feel comfortable at longer distances.  I like shooting groups because it does let you become consistant.  I find the more that I shoot groups, the better my one shot groups and first arrow of the day improve.  I also like stump shooting and find that the best for estimating distances(for me).  Stump shooting really improved my confidence.  May try that golf ball thing.  Good luck with your shooting.

I shoot groups mainly to make sure my arrows are all shooting the same, looking for all arrows to be within a 4-6" circle at 15 yards. Any "fliers" are marked, to see if they shoot differently from the rest, or if it was just me.

For hunting practice, I'll put judo points on a couple and go roving. I just walk woods trails and shoot at leaves, sticks, mushrooms, or anything else that catches my eye, all at random distances from 5 to 45 yards. You learn quickly how far you can shoot and make a killing shot, and in the context of a hunting scene.

20 yards...i rarely shoot groups I normally shoot one arrow at each target (i have an array of them) then collect them and change distances

(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f137/swankeer/utf-8BSU1HMDAyNjQuanBn.jpg)

My goal is 2" spot at 20 yards. With this being a GOAL i am always trying to get better so i can do it. At least once or twice a day i do stack 3 arrows in the 2" spot so i know i can and it reinforces my drive to do so every time.

I heard Byron Fergeson say once that the spot you aim at to hit a asprin is the same size spot you aim at to hit a water melon. I also heard the gentleman that shoots the shotgun for Benelli ( i cant remember his name) say the same thing.

I shoot groups to reinforce form so there is no thought prosses during the moment of truth on a big hog. I shoot as many 3D shoots as i can, 7 to 9 a year, to practice at unknown distance on animal size and shape targets. I will also practice awkward postion shots one arrow at a time.

I also practice at 30,40 and 50 yards though i will never take a shot like that in a hunting situation, i love to watch the arrows fly.

I think six inches CONSISTENTLY is very good with a stickbow; I haven't seen many people who can do that time after time with multiple arrows.  Consistent 8" groups will kill deer sized game all day long.

4" regardless of the range with simulated hunting shots during practice.  4" will grow when shooting at an animal, in the cold, wind etc.  That has always been my rule and it has not failed me.  Under ideal hunting shot conditions I will allow 6" accuracy range shots after making sure everything is right for the shot.

Still hunting for squirrels is actually the best pre-deer season prep. I have ever experienced. You will be shooting at live targets, at various distances and angles.  I use cheap arrows w/bright 5 1/2" bananna cut, to aid finding my arrow after missed "up in the tree shots"  I find most of the misses--often a 100yds off. I never try to retrieve them right away, rather I just continue to still hunt in the direction of flight. Often they are 100yds + down range and I may not get there for 1/2 hr or more, but no matter.  After hunting squirrel like this for a few weeks, makes nailing deer seems ridiculously simple.  Actually I have come to enjoy the squirrel hunting more than the deer.  You see more of the game you seek, you get more shots, and it is super challenging-- Also, the antics and aerobotics of squirrels is high entertainment, and they make for some good eating too!

I normally shoot stuffed animals(toys)around the yard at unmarked ranges with blunts. These are normally small maybe 4 or 5 inchs in size. I really like those stuff hedge hogs they are the perfect size and look. My dog gets mad sometimes that am shooting all her chew toys but its great pratice and has a real hunting look/feel to the pratice vs a target or hay bale.

What's a meter?

It's what the rest of the world uses to measure distance  :goldtooth:  

1meter = 1.09 yards or 39.37inches

you could have fun with apprentices in america though. "hey, go grab me a 8/16" spanner"   :banghead:

LOL, Just a joke guys. I create autocad files daily and have to convert "to the rest of the world".

We all know its the first arrow that counts however if ya look at your target after 50-60 arrows it'll give ya a better idea of what your "group" size really is.

Yea many of us slap arrows together in a nice tight group but it isn't every time therefore is not the average

I see alot of "4" groups and thats great but what does your blue NFAA target look like after a 300 round?? probably not 4"

I don't like to miss my first shot by more than 3" or a 6" group.My average is .....LOL

Well,What I do is in my backyard I have a large foam target and it has a golf ball in the center of it that is hung by a peice of wood. I shoot at the golf ball,the only problem is that there isnt enough variation.