Trad Gang

i was just wondering if anyone else has been noticing the increased unethical shots on the hunting shows on the outdoor channel? this is not a good thing.i was floored to watch a well known host shoot at a rhino when it was totally quartered towards him with a compound bow and he still shot behind the shoulder'''unreal'''.the antis watch these shows also and trust me when i say this...they will use this against all hunters.the people who make these shows need to step up and get it right.just my two cents....larry

your right, these people are role models whether they like it or not. just like sports stars are.

I totally agree, I've seen some CRAZY shots on tv at times. I usually have to turn the tv off.

Zack

Its not just on the Disneyland hunting programs. I see it done on 3D courses, and too many are thinking that if they can hit the rings at any angle on a 3D, then it must be a good shot in the woods. Same goes for unethical shot distances. Too many bowhunters think long shots are ok at game just because they can make them on a foam deer.

It applies to everyone too, i've seen it with trad and modern shooters, although its much much less within the trad community. Then we have guys like Tred Barta taking long shots, bad angles etc, portraying a "shoot at any cost" attitude.

I have taught IBEP for 14 years, and I am in full agreement that the ONLY ethtical high perentage shots in bowhunting are broadside and slight quartering away. Sure, you can kill animal with other angles, but the odds of a poor outcome go way up. To me, its not responsible and is not respectful of the game to take anything but high percentage kill shots.

Even when we stick to those guidelines, things can and do go wrong. Taking an iffy shot dramatically increases the odds of that happening.

I also think that the long distance mentality on the 3D course is resulting in increased wounding loss in the field.

I wish more of these "hunting" shows would push that message. We would have a lot less wounding loss.

Does Jim Shockey actually take the shot..? Or does he wait for it to turn? All i have seen is the draw then...break for commercial.

I say save the long shots for small game.  You either hit it or you don't.  Who wouldn't boast if they hit a rabbit at 30 plus yards.

Isn't Shockey doing a "green" hunt on that rhino?  I do agree that alot of bad shots are taken on these "hunting" shows.  But realistically, most of the people on these shows are a bunch of bozos.

Don't forget all this crap is edited and spliced hundred times over. There is one shot on Gary Bogners big five video where if you pause and zoom you can see he shot clean over cape buff. Next frame is a kill shot of him and buff???

Remember also that the camera angle and the hunter's angle are not always the same. When you are watching a treestand shot the two are closer together than they might be on a ground hunt.

I have seen an increase over the last 3-4 months

Cheap video cameras, empty channel slots on cable, viola! Crap hunters with even less ethics making a grip on national t.v. But let me ask you this: how well would those networks do if they actually filmed hunts, the way you and I know them? What if they actually showed the hunter going home empty handed frequently? What if it focused on the benefits of just being outdoors and enjoying time with friends and family? Would you watch? I probably wouldn't, but that's still not to say they shouldn't get the fantasy right! Geez!  

QuoteOriginally posted by maxfit:
Does Jim Shockey actually take the shot..? Or does he wait for it to turn? All i have seen is the draw then...break for commercial.

Draw??? Jim Shockey is a gun hunter he doesn't draw.

i've been around the "upscale" hunting show guys a lot because of my family's company... and i can tell you that most of those guys are arrogant, self centered jerks. nothing they do suprises me. and what it comes down to is what they think their rating will do.. if they take some far out impossible shot they think it will help their ratings because they think they have to have a kill at the end of the show.
these people get lost in the media world and forget that they are sportsman.

Alot of 3-D's have "taught" folks to take shots that in the real world would not be good. As far filming this stuff there is a show on now that shows film crews competeing filming "hunts"!! Then you wonder how this crap gets on TV.

I've seen that one as well with the rhino. That was a dart hunt, not looking for a fatal shot with a broadhead tipped arrow, but looking to get the tranquilizer dart in the animal. That is a whole 'nother subject of course but that is one of the ways the manage the rhino herd is to have hunters pay to dart them so they can look at their health and such. Take a look at the tip of the arrow next time you see the cut...it is on at the beginning of each of his shows, if we're talking the same guy. I am defending this particular guy, again if we're talking the same guy, as I think he's one of the good ones.  

Now some of the others, yes, I've seen some pretty poor shot decisions made in the name of getting that kill on video.

But, here we are again moaning about something that is not trad archery/trad bowhunting related. I'll bet this'll get pulled as soon as a mod sees it.

I'm feeling the same way and don't watch the shows like I used to.  I've had more enjoyment with "traditional bowhunting" DVDs, versus the other well-known ones, or TV personalities.  With the traditional bowhunting DVDs, you hardly hear about what "class" the buck is, or what the G2 length is, but more so family values and bringing in our youth to the enjoyment of the outdoors.  They seem to have more appreciation for the animal, instead of what they are sporting in headgear.  One of the best in my opinion, is "Primal Dreams"!

On the plus side, I've been at a number of 3D shoots with trad hunters who look at a target placement and say "I'd never take this shot at anything that was alive" so I don't think many of the trad guys are losing the distinction between targets and living animals.

I don't watch any hunting shows. The public airing of a hunting kill takes the magic out of the moment. This is especially true when unethical shots are taken. Also, we are most often judged by what people see us do, and all hunters are "seen" as unethical when an ant-hunter sees one person screw up. So, it would suit me if there was no coverage at all of hunting on TV. Besides, hunting stories are more fun when shared by a close group of buddies, preferably around a blazing camp fire with a glass of smooth single malt scotch in hand.

Did I say ant-hunter above? Should be anti-hunter. Now you know why I'm not a writer.

Unfortunately this behaviour isnt only reserved for the self centered, ratings hungry, results oriented TV crowd.  Ive seen more and more of this among what commonly passes for "Hunters".  Seems the popular attitude is that if you dont bring home the biggest then you arent much of a hunter.  Im sure this is a dual edge sword in that it drives the programming we see on TV as well as drives hunters to adopt what they come to accept as a sort of standard of success.  

For my part I hunt because I love to hunt, sometimes I manage to take an animal while Im at it.  I get limited opportunities due to my equipment as well as my personal limitations on range and taking only high percentage shots.  I try to encourage people that hunt with me to adopt a similar attitude and if they cross the line and break what I consider ethical hunting standards they likely will not hunt with me again.  As a further step I simply refuse to watch the steaming load of HollyWood crap that passes for hunting on TV.  If you really want it to change then hit em where it hurts and refuse to watch or buy videos or support their sponsors and advertisers.

Dragon, I've noticed the same thing at our 3D shoots. Trad shooters will say something like "what was the person who set this target up thinking?".
At our club shoots there are times I won't even score my card since I'm looking for the good shot instead of the one from the stakes.

I am in total agreement with AUTUMNARCHER,The angles and the distance they have set up at these 3d shoots just gives false positives.     HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I HEARD THIS!  IF THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REAL DEER I WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM FOR SURE!

I sit and watch some of the shows and the biggest problem that I have is why dont they tell the truth when they screw up on a shot. I have seen pure gutshots and heard these guys talk about how it was such an awesome shot. Then you dont see a bloodtrail only them finding the animal and telling how good a job such and such broadhead did at killing this animal. I dont agree with the long range shots because I feel this causes a lot of the shots I am talking about but you would think they would learn from thier screw ups. But I guess the broadhead / bow /arrow companies dont pay as well if they dont kill something.

This is a very good subject to me.

I am a newbie to the hunting world. I have never killed anything larger than a rabbit. I'm about to go on my first hunt ever and have been practicing and practicing to be able to take a good shot. I can't control wheather or not the animal is going to turn for a good shot, BUT I have the sense to not shoot unless I am SURE the animal has given me the opportunity and blessing of a clean, humane kill.

I have watched some of the big names hunt. I agree that the arrogance and a big bank-roll combined with cameras can really turn people off. I had no interest in hunting until I was in CO and my buddy (hunter) pulled off the side of the road to tend to a deer that was hit. We didn't hit it and everyone was driving by , but he had the respect and admiration of nature and his sport to pull the deer off to the side so she wouldn't be mangled.

Sorry for the babble.

Good luck fido dog on that first hunt!              I want to thank all these arrogant hunting shows because they were the biggest influence for me to take my wheels off and get back to hunting the way my father showed me how!

The problem with ETHICS is they are different for every person. I've sat here and read most of this thread shaking my head with disapproval. It's real easy to jump on the ethics band wagon and say everyone that doesn't do it my way ( 10-15 yards broadside) is unethical. God gave each of us a measure of talent as a person and as an archer. What talent I wasn't blessed with can and is made up for by practice.

Which is more unethical? the guy that hasn't practiced and tries that 20 yard broadside shot or the fellow that has practiced all year and can consistently hit the kill zone at 35 yards.

Ethics is a personal decision, not to be second guessed by arm chair quarterbacks. One last thought, to an antihunter every shot is unethical, wheter it's a high percentage shot or a more marginal shot.  :campfire:   Critizising (sp) each other, for split second decisions is what fuels the antihunters movement not the shot itself. I don't believe anyone sets out to make a bad shot, unfortunatly life happens.

is there a difference between taking a marginal shot and making it, and taking a "perfect" shot and losing a wounded animal ?

my question is, the end result really does justify taking the shot, doesn't it ?

It seems the quartering toward you shot is getting to be the norm on many shows. I think this contributes to a monkey see monkey do attitude. I know of a guy who wounded six bucks last season, all poor shot angles, mech. heads, lite arrows, some with even no blood trail even found!

I have to totally agree some of the shots on tv are outrageous and as a hunter i am often left wondering what the person was thinking.  Im all for having fun at the 3d range taking long or difficult shots but that is a scenario where the worst end result is a lost or broken arrow people need to have the common sense and self control to know that doesnt translate into the woods.  Recently on one of those shows i watched a guy take a 100 yard shot at a pronghorn.  I was appalled...it ended in a gut shot that editing made look like a good kill shot it was rediculious...but i guess thats the way most of these shows are now. Sad how it portrays hunting and hunters if you ask me

I personally hate quite a few things about tv shots and situations. Things that I in a lifetime of hunting have not ever dealt with.
                                     
Like the guide that tells you when and when not to shoot. I am not going to pay money to hunt an animal; and then have someone tell me when to shoot. I decide that.
                                     
Sayings like ' I smoked him' ; and 'I dropped the hammer on that one'; and 'I couldn't wait to squeeze the trigger on that buck'...and the worst line -  "did I hit it?".
                                             
I hate it when a hunter shoots a foam target and then puts the arrows in his quiver and says he is ready to hunt. NO first you sharpen your arrows- THEN you hunt !

I might be too old at 58 to understand the origin and usage of the saying ' that's what I'm talkin bout!'. But I am sick of it.

I like to note the color of the fletch on a hunt and then I count the arrows in the quiver. Often the hunter makes a perfect shot; and there are 4 arrows missing from his quiver.

 Two seconds after the shot the hunter says :"he dropped !!" then they are looking for the deer the next day..

 Changing camo. They start the days hunt in a tree with one camo pattern; and its different when they draw back; and when they go to get the deer- they are wearing something totally different.

Bad shots happen - more often to gun hunters than bow hunters. I watched a guy getting ready to shoot at a deer at 350 yards. He said " I think I can make that shot" -" I am pretty sure" -" I probably will".... what? Tonight I saw a guy shoot at a turkey with a shotgun. He hit the bird when it was facing the opposite direction; and had its head up. The shot hit the bird just below the bottom of the neck- feathers moved; the turkey flopped and took off running/ wobbling.. and the guy said " I missed !" -  "I can't believe I missed!". I have news for that guy - he didn't miss; he just didn't follow up the shot.

I have refused to shoot at some 3D targets; like a buck standing broadside with a doe under it in the background. A bear standing up in a creek bed ( it could have cubs if it wasn't foam).

The line I predict we will hear more and more often is ' did I hit it?' As arrows get faster- and its in the 300 to 340 feet per second; the arrows flight is too fast to see. We will hear more ' did I hit it?'s in the future...

"I have refused to shoot at some 3D targets; like a buck standing broadside with a doe under it in the background. A bear standing up in a creek bed ( it could have cubs if it wasn't foam)."

You are kidding, right?

There are a lot of ways to look at all this. when I hunt I HUNT 8-15yd shots when on a 3-d course I shoot whats laid out sometimes I move closer. camra angle has everything to do with it I dont like the fact they show it then justifi it we all know it happens. we dont need any bad press just because they want to make a T.V show the problem is they fly in to airport get picked up rush to the hunt site trying to get big deer on film in a few days then off to the next spot pressure is pressure a person will make mistakes underpressure they spend all that time an money an there man shanks the shot so they paint up the segment an move on. It will catch up with us

I like the responses on this thread. It proves that some people will do almost anything to sell a video and/or products. Now this may upset some but I am just speaking of my own experence at 3d shoots. I still shoot all types of archery and the only time I have had a problem with unethical shots have been on traditional shoots. After the shoot I mentioned this to a range offical and the response I got was( we like challenging shots) Well I like shots that challenge also as long as it is at ethical angles. When young archers and those just getting in to archery come to one of our 3d shoots it is our duty to make it as life like as possible. This will promote good ethical hunting

What annoys me is giving points at 3D shoots for wounding the animal.

Surely missing the animal altogether should be rewarded more than wounding it.  Ok, it's only playing and in the UK we're not allowed to hunt with bows, but it's hardly surprising that the public think hunting sucks over here when those who are pretending to put on simulated bowhunting shoots with lifesize 3D's give people big pats on the back and medals for wounding.

I always thought the point of a 3d match was to make the shots difficult enough to create differentiation among scores.  If every shot at a match was 15 yards, broad side, and wide open, then it wouldn't be much fun and all the shooters would score within a few points of each other.

Shooting between two limbs at 30 yards in a 3d match does not make me believe I can do the same on a live animal.  It simply makes me more confident to take that 18 yard broadside shot that we all are looking for when hunting.

QuoteOriginally posted by sshntr:
I always thought the point of a 3d match was to make the shots difficult enough to create differentiation among scores.  If every shot at a match was 15 yards, broad side, and wide open, then it wouldn't be much fun and all the shooters would score within a few points of each other.

If it was made that the heart was 20 points, lungs 10 points and wounds -20 then i think it would work quite well at up to 25 yard distances.  They don't all have to be big 3D's either.  Some of the smaller 3D's would really seperate the good from the bad with that kind of scoring even at short distances.

I was watching bowhunt 365 he shot @ 90 yards and was telling how comfortable he was with the shot.
I couldn't beleive my ears.He hit it way high and way back,I guess a good hit is in the eys of the beholder.
Said he practices all the time @ 100 and over .
I deleted the recording and removed it from my dvr for all future shows.
  :mad:      

I think some people rad a bit too much into 3 D rules.

Its a casual game that most of us do for practice.

As someone who actually hunts - there is pretty much nothing in common about the pressure and thought processes between hunting and any kind of target shooting. The only thing that carries though is hopefully the mechanics of shooting.

Yes everyone has there own comfort zone with shot distances and such but some Pro shops, some hunting shows, and some hunting celebrity's are pushing this longer distance shooting because of the "faster" bows. I don't care how fast your bow Is, It's never going to be fast enough for some of these animals when they duck, drop, or whatever you want to call It.

The young crowd that goes and buys a bow for the 1st time gets told this all the time "your bow Is fast, you can shoot longer ranges". I'm so sick of hearing that, makes me sick!!! These new born bow hunters don't know any better so there going to do what the pro's say, It's not there fault, It's the pro shops and the TV guru's pushing the bad Info!! Bow hunting on TV Is no longer up and close hunting on allot of the shows. I get laughed at when I go out west Elk hunting with my recurve, people always tell me I'm nuts. Everybody has got It drilled In there head that If you don't take 40 yard shots elk hunting your not going to be successful at getting an elk. I hear It all the time In person and on bow hunting forums, drives me nuts. Learn to have patience I tell them and It will happen. In saying what I said though It's most likely not going to do any good bickering about It and In my opinion "longer distance shooting" Is going to be the norm In the future.  

Each to there own I guess.

When it comes to 3D I always liked the old targets that had the score on the inside.   You had to play the angle on those or you wouldn't score well.  Today, I really don't worry about score when shooting 3D, I just shoot it for hunting practice so I try to shoot where I would shoot on a real animal.

As far as videos go, I think the people in most of them feel the pressure to out do their previous video or to make sure they get enough game to sell a video next year.  This pressure in turn starts to influence their their hunting and ethical choices.

The consumers are their own worst enemy in this cycle.  How may people would buy a monster bucks video that contained nothing but misses?  From what I've seem from most hunting videos, it's much less about the hunt and all about the kill.   Not just any kill mind you but a "monster" .

IMHO hunting in general has become too much of a competition and less about "hunting".   Whether the videos are the cause for that or just a reflection of that, I'm not quite sure.

From what I have seen even though he hunts with a muzzleloader a lot of bowhunters on TV could learn a thing or two from Jim Shockey about shot selection and presenting a good image of hunting to the public.  I have also noticed that the female hunters on TV are usually a lot more patient and better shots.

The only reason that I watch those shows is to gain knowlege, ie. I have never seen a live caribou and now, after watching a few hunts on the tube, I'm fairly confident that if I ever get a chance to hunt a caribou I'll have some idea of a good set of horns and a great set of horns.
Now don't get me wrong I am a meat hunter first and formost, but if I hit the migration just right and 1000 + bou are funneling by me, well you get the picture.
Sorry about babbleing on so long.

Let's not forget: 3D is about competition, not about hunting. Just because 3D courses are set up to have some difficult shots, it doesn't mean that the people who set it up are encouraging us to take those shots while hunting.

When I did a lot of competing, I always liked the all-traditional shoots best, because the shots were usually more difficult, with more "trash" in the way. More fun. The compound shooters were more likely to set up the shots so that they wouldn't lose any of those high-priced arrows, and so that they could hold their bows vertically. Also, traditional shoots frequently had moving targets, which compound shooters have a really hard time with. The old Howard Hill shoot in Wilsonville, AL usually had more moving than stationary targets. Does that mean that traditional shooters prefer to shoot at moving animals? No. It's just more fun with the additional challenge of a more difficult shot, and the archers who can meet the challenge come out on top.

One of the most striking differences between the all-trad and the other shoots was the noise level on the course when the groups were making the rounds. All serious quietness and whispers from the high-tech bunch, lots of laughter and ribbing of each other from our gang. I once saw a high-tech guy smash his high-dollar bow onto the ground and walk away in frustration. He kind of missed the point, I think.

To get back on topic, I can only hope that the hunting viewers are at least sophisticated enough to realize that TV shows are not real, even when they are purported to be. The blatant advertising of the products used should be enough to alert even the most jaded watcher to the real agenda, which is the marketing of an ever-increasing array of ridiculous inventions that will help us bring home the ultimate trophy.

But if we don't watch the shows, how will we know which manufacturers to boycott? Catch-22.

I agree about not taking unethical shots but why isn't anyone ragging on our big name founding archery "heros".  
I really enjoy 3D but it is a game.  For me, some of this discussion would be the equivilant of railing a guy for going out stump shooting and taking shots that he would never take hunting.  Shooting too far, threading a shot through a too crowded shooting lane, etc.  
If someone is not bright enough to differentiate hunting from 3D, I don't think they are going to make the best decisions in the field anyway.  3D can offer a great chance to teach, explain, and discuss why an individual shot is good or bad.  But don't get puffed up or boast because you passed up an unethical shot at a block of foam.  I have never stump shot with anyone that every passed up a challenging shot with the excuse that they wouldn't take the shot on a deer so they will pass.  Let's keep things in perspective.
I speculate that if we had every one of our shots on animals filmed, we would be able to pick apart a lot of our own shots.  Maybe the lane was crowded, animal needed to fully extended that leg, animal was quartering towards us slightly, etc.  It's too easy to pick apart someone on stage when in reality, many of us might still make similar decisions.
If they are truly unethical, they shouldn't be on the air setting an example and teaching people.
oxnam

I have seen the draw on the rhino, it was a green hunt with a dart, and Jim S makes some great shots.  Waits for a good clean shot on the animals he hunts.  There are a few shows on the Outdoot Channel i refuse to watch because of the horrible shots I have seen made and the "hunter" talks about what a great shot it was.  The one that made me stop watching one of the shows, he hit very high and very far back(can we say hemroid surgery) then bragged about what a great shot he made.
As for 3d shoots, I have "0"ed several targets by shotting where I would on a real animal rather than at the point markers.  Quartering away shot, if you following where my arrow was, right through at least one lung and very close to the heart, but way off as far as points go.  As long as people realize the point rings are great for trying to get small groups and not proper placement in all situations, they are alright.
It would be nice to see "real" hunting on some of these shows, the kind where you bounce an arrow off a limb you didn't notice and the animal runs out 40 yards and laughs at you.  Maybe we should make our own show, one that teaches ethic shooting and the responsiblity of being a hunter.
Just my $.02

yes jim shockey is a very ethical hunter but he must be nutts to stick a dart in a rhino at that range...i did not realize that was a green hunt so my bad,i was going to guide a guy from cali once who said he would shoot an elk at 100 yards with his compound.NOTTT..told him his limit was 50 while hunting with me,called him in a 300 class bull to 20yds and he shot 6 feet over its back..lol..but yes these guys on tv set the visual impression non hunters see when the anti's start a campain against us.

nighthawk....there is either ethical shooting or non ethical shooting.each hunter has to define his or her own distance that is comfortable.by ethical shooting i am referring to the animal being in a broadside position when the projectile is delivered not the distance,but at the same time there is unethical distance shots with archery equipment also.

I'm surprized we have not heard from Fred Eichler(Eastman Bowhunting TV) by now. He has always been quick to reply on other subjects. I to have noticed the poor shot angles and bad hits being called perfect with great blood and a short recovery. It would be nice for one of the TV hunters to jump in and answer a few of these threads. Fred's show is the only one that I watch on a consistent basis. Would love to hear what he has to say on the subject but he might not want to put it in writing and I can't say I would blame him if that is the case.

I tried watching a show with my son this afternoon. I had to turn it off. First off, it was a point based competition. Secondly, one guy took what had to be an 80 or 90 yard shot at an antelope with a wheelie bow. The animal moved about ten feet and turned around before the arrow was even half way there.

On another note, some shots which appear unethical in either distance or position of the animal can be attributed to the camera, or its position regarding the shooter. Some....but not all.

I agree with Sam McMichael back on page 2.  I stopped watching those programs long ago.  However, on the few occasions I did watch them in the past, when I witnessed shoddy behavior, which was almost always, I paid particular attention to the advertisers so I could make damn sure I would never, ever buy any of their products.

sadly thats what these shows are all about....what can we sell you.boils down to the allmighty dollar again.    :banghead:

I love you guys but we got some cazy ethics thoughts out there.  Antihunters already hate us and you can not reason with someone who is using their heart to think with instead of looking at things logicaly with there brain. I don't watch a lot of hunting shows but I have not seen any 100 yard shots, I did see a 70 yard a long time ago and it was upsetting.  I am glad to find out that that was a dart on that rhino because that bothered me. Sorry but I would be happy if I never heard the term wheelie bow again.  A big turn off from switching to trad was all the damn whinning about the wheelie bow guys at the shoots.

I've been involved in filming several shows and can tell you that the pressure to finish a show in a limited amount of time is amazing.   Although it wasn't the case when I was involved, this certainly can lead to bad behavior. Personally, I don't watch them because they have little to do with hunting as I know it - they have to do with entertainment and the guys making the shows know that.   The frightening thing to me is how much influence the shows seem to have had on the increase in emphasis on big antlers and on the increase in wannabe "professional" hunters.

I agree that 3D shoots don't help this problem at all.  I'd like to see more "traditional" 3D shoots with all shots realistic (20 yards or less) with minus points for bad hits.

I seem to remember a thread on here a year or two ago about a guy who shot an elk at about 60 yrds.  Heart shot that elk.  For the most part he got blasted for taking such a long shot.  Soo who ethics are we talking about?  Yours or the o ne taking the shot?  I think we as a whole work to make quick clean kills.  But, are world is not there's  I see shots on those shows that make me sick.  So I don't watch them.  To each there own.

:coffee:  Yawn.  Never heard this line of thought before.

houseman...even a blind squirrel gets a nut now and then...ethical shooting is not you,me,he or she. its us.ethics cannot be twisted around for one person as at that point they are no longer ethical if you are outside the quote,rules of ethical hunting then you need to start all over and go through the hunters safety course in your area,we are all taught when young the do's and dont's of hunting.sadly they get left on the ground with the rest of the garbage.to me an unethical hunter is the same guy who rolls down his window and tosses out his garbage.   :readit:

Fair enough but If so an so can shoot a 6" group at 50 yrds.  Is it wrong for him to take a 45 tyrd shot that he knows he can make?  I don't understand what you are saying about ethic's being twisted?  Tell me what you mean

i simply meant that one mans ethics need to be the same as the next and so on.i have no problem with a hunter shooting 50 yds as long as its a broadside shot although that is a ways out there for a traditional bow but hey..if you can shoot that good then by all means take the shot and pray the animal doesn't take a step when the sound reaches him a long time before the arrow does..no offense meant or taken....larry

Missed twice on the same doe this year at a range I'm proficient at.

Turns out, she wasn't quite at the range I thought she was.  

Wonder why?

Ultimately it ended up...she was a BIG doe.  Absosmurfly humongous!  Buddy put her down soundly after I ran her off with my misses.

I went home with a couple handfulls of squirrels instead.  No harm done, recovered my arrows.  She got educated, and I got an education.

Oh, and my squirrels-n-biscuits w/ squirrel gravy.

Hey, if you can't make it for dinner, make breakfast!

Quoteam in total agreement with AUTUMNARCHER,The angles and the distance they have set up at these 3d shoots just gives false positives. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I HEARD THIS! IF THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REAL DEER I WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM FOR SURE!  

Usually when I hear this on a 3D range. it was not a "called" shot. Instead the shooter missed the 10 and justifies a bad shot with "would a killed a real deer". Not saying everyone, but if you are shooting for the "kill" instead of the 10, call it Especially on the dinasaur.  :D  

Steve

I  think we all have had times on a 3D course where we question either the distance, the angle or the amount of stuff blocking the shot. It drives me nuts that some who set targets think they have to put a ton of branches blocking a shorter shot from the Trad stake. That somehow, because we take shorter shots on a whole, that we like to have to shoot through bushes all day. That somehow we don't mind losing a quiver full of arrows on deflections and broken shafts.

Being that the majority of shoots are not money shoots, the most you get for a top score is bragging rights or a ribbon, there is no need to have to spend the day taking shots like that. If I do not like the stake placement, I move a little to make the shot realistic.

What we do when I take to family to a shoot is focus on fun, not scores. I think we can take some tough shots, and learn why or why not we would take that in the woods. The challenge helps develop focus on psicking a spot.

We look at a well placed quartering shot, and though it may only be a 5 , we look at the arrow angle to deecide if is was indeed a good hunting shot.

I guess it depends on your motivation for shooting 3D shoots. I shoot them for two reasons, FUN, and hunting practice. Of course others revel in the scorecard competitioin, and there is nothing wrong with that.

where things get sticky is when the long shot attitude finds its way into the hunting woods, and as this thread is focused- videos.

I like to practice shooting distances longer than I would ever take in the woods. It makes you prefect form and technique which will benefit your shooting at all distances. I shoot at all kinds of body positions too.

But when it comes to shooting at live game, the issue becomes whether I can make a high percentage shot with maximum confidence that it will result in as quick and humane death as possible for that animal. Long distance shots significantly increase the odds that the animal will not be in the same position when the arrow arrives as it was when it left the bow.

These producers of videos have really missed the opportunity to reinforce shot selection to the masses, for the most part due to pressure from sponsors to show a kill at all costs.

Thanks for cleaning that up a little for me Steve. Thats where I was going with that statement.

There's some really poor judgement on shot selection with some of "our" trad heros on film too.  Anyone who would take a quartering to shot on a mtn goat of all animals, whether they get them or not, is not using good judgemnet.

go to darwinmcduck on youtube click on the hog hunting...I WARN YOU THIS IS DISGUSTING...this is what we have to stop

the local 3d shoot in the area here is in my opinion absolutely ridiculas.the traditional archer has to shoot from the same stakes as the compound shooter.there are shots out to 100 yds and everywhere in between.in my opinion this only promotes bad shots which then promotes bad ethics.  

And forks make Rosie O fat.  :D  

Steve

yep checked out the you tube thing. sadly the anti's think we're all like that. maybe we should give the guns to the pigs.  ;)

yes they do percieve us to be all blood thirsty gun totin murderers that shoot everything that moves. the you tube segmant is very bad for all hunters images.

you'll never guess where i found the link to that.

Quotethe local 3d shoot in the area here is in my opinion absolutely ridiculas.the traditional archer has to shoot from the same stakes as the compound shooter.there are shots out to 100 yds and everywhere in between.in my opinion this only promotes bad shots which then promotes bad ethics.

I think we are underestimating the intelligence of the average bowhunter.  I know of only a couple people that I've run accross that are stupid enough to take bad shots regularly.  Personally I like it when the 3d course gives me wierd or hard shots.  I'm picking a spot and trying to hit it.  It is an inanimate object and I think most people can distinguish the difference between shots that can be taken at a 3d target vs a real animal.

lets say a guy shoots a 60yd shot at a 3d target and like the good old blind squirrel gets a nut and scores a kill on it.....same shooter goes elk hunting and sees a bull at 60yds or so...he has a false confidence in his mind that he can still make the shot...he shoots...one problem,sound travels at what speed compared to the arrow? elk jumps forward and stops the arrow with his gut or hindquarter.end result lost elk more than likely will die from infection.this is where ethics have to be used and not just pride and greed to kill something...i would trade the 13 bulls i have taken with archery equipment to save just one from a bad hit.m2c

Back before 3D's were all the rage, we used to shoot NFAA animal rounds, which were smaller targets at longer distances than the trad stakes people shoot from these days. Heck, the old NFAA Hunter rounds were shot out to 70 yards, and somehow we were smart enough to figure out the difference between a target and an actual animal.

yes i agree but the difference between you and todays average hunter is ethics.it seems that younger hunters today are more concerned about how big and how it scores.i quizzed my fiances 13 year old son after he completed hunters safety and he said there was virtually no coverage of ethical hunting.granted some areas of the safety part is the same as ethics but it boils down to parenting the young hunters and providing them with the seeds to have the ethics planted in them so they can grow.

elkherder,

I suppose I'm not that pessimistic about today's hunters. I go to a lot of 3D shoots and other events and talk to probably hundreds of people every year. Honestly, I don't see any more folks doing stupid stuff now than they did back then. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of people I meet every year just love to hunt and want to make sure they have a safe, fun time and kill their game quickly and humanely. You're always going to have certain vocal minorities, but we can't let the few skew our perceptions of the many.

Im no fan of 60 yards shots in competition - I have no use for that range and I dont practice it.

BUT the position that it should not be part of competitions because it might encourage a bad shot in the field is a weak and tired argument.

We cant live our lives fearful that neutral and casual actions on our part might encourage dummys to act dumb.
Now if you were talking about a shoot just for kids you might or might not have a point, but not with respect a normal shoot.

QuoteOriginally posted by elkherder:
go to darwinmcduck on youtube click on the hog hunting...I WARN YOU THIS IS DISGUSTING...this is what we have to stop

That was disturbing!!!!! It's people like that giving hunting a bad name.  

i'm not going to tell you where i found that video i'd probably get sued or something.but yes it is very disturbing.thank you dartwick good point.

QuoteOriginally posted by elkherder:
go to darwinmcduck on youtube click on the hog hunting...I WARN YOU THIS IS DISGUSTING...this is what we have to stop

It's people and video's like this that make the battle to maintain hunting rights/privileges so difficult.  The damage done to the image of hunting by that one video in the hands of antis is massive.

And it boggles my mind how people can do/post stuff like this and then wonder why people want to ban hunting, guns, etc.

back when I played basketball in high school, we would throw up some 1/2 court even 3/4 court shots before practice just cause they were fun to do...however, we never shot them in a game situation cause we happened to make one or two in practice. I thought archery was suppossed to be fun...If I followed some of the responses I"ve read on this thread, I wouldn't go to another 3D shoot in my life, some of you need to stop worrying about other people and jsut enjoy shooting..put the fun back into it or hang it up..MORE STANDING BEAR 40 YRD SHOTS!!!!! (running back to my cave)

I try and worry about the shots I take or pass on.I leave it to others to make there own decisions right or wrong.  :D  

As far as 3ds go reguardless of what some think it is a game of shooting targets.The targets just look like animals but the spot that it to be scored is just like a spot on a flat target.I sure would never pass on a target because I thought it was not the best "killing shot" like I would on an animal.Some just have trouble seperating the two sports.  ;)  

I wish the guys that always have trouble with the way targets are set up on courses would just offer to lend a hand sometime.You will soon see there is no way to please everyone no matter what you do.Guys that set course work hard trying to please as many as they can will would be glad for a little help an impute.If you don't like a course just help them out a little instead of slamming the guys that make it possible for you to even have a place to shoot.  :)  jmo

point taken james but ultimately the course is set up by bowhunters as well as just 3d shooters.i think we would all benefit if we set up 3d shoots to ibo standards which are in my opinion the best as far as realistic shots are concerned and are required to have seperate stakes for each class of shooter.the maximum was 50 yds for compound and i think 35 for traditional.and not sure for the junior class.in my opinion if you'll shoot a target at 60 you'll shoot an animal at the same yardage if you are fairly new to the sport.i cannot tell you how many gun hunters i have seen switch over to archery simply because they can then hunt elk in the rut.they sight their bow in clear out to 100 yds (some not all) i once sent a friend home who i watched launch an arrow at a cow elk that was walking from at least 70 yds luckily he missed.he went back to gun hunting.we need a seperate course on ethics for first time archers.just my opinion.

I think that most of the people on those show just want to kill a trophy or a rare animal at any cost.    People who do that and have children will teach them the same things and those will teach their children....and the cycle continues. People have no respect for game now-a-days.

That hog hunting video was probably one of the disturbing things I have ever seen on youtube.  Karma is going to bite those guys one day for sure....

There's an amazingly simple solution to the problem: turn off the tube, ignore the sponsors, and go hunting. Don

On the 3-d shoots.. James, you are on the money. Our local club as do most I imagine have a core that gets worked to death setting ranges then taking them down only to hear people gripe about this or that. The folks setting them are usually the same people shoot after shoot.. the best shooters in our area usually dont do anything but show up and shoot then leave with thier trophy..easier to shoot when your butt isnt whipped from doing all the work. Some of the unhappy folks need to pitch in and put thier ideas to practice on target setup...
Mr. Thomas.. thats the best idea I have heard all day.... I'm goin in the morning for our last day.. see if I cant run up on a hog  or somethin...

:clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:

"Back before 3D's were all the rage, we used to shoot NFAA animal rounds"

Jason, were you even born by the time these were still taking place, lol?

Steve,

Believe it or not, when I got into archery our local club shot mostly field, hunter and animal rounds. Every weekend at least one club in the area had some form of field archery going on. We didn't have 3D's at that time. The closest things were those 2D foam animal cutouts, which never seemed to last very long.