At what speed does a trad shooter decide to go for a heavy arrow and give up the idea of a light and fast one?
I shoot a 43# R/D longbow shooting full length Grizzly Sitkas/72gr insert/145 gr. FP.
On the 3-D course I notice the arrows dropping like rocks at 20+/- yards.
I'm not crazy about having to lob arrows. I'd like to get as fast and flat flight as I could get.
Where is the line drawn where weight becomes more important than speed and distance? <250fps?
I don't know what the wheelie guys shoot, but what I gather, they shoot light arrows and get great speed out of them. Couldn't they just as easily shoot very heavy arrows if weight is more important for penetration? Are their bows SO fast that they don't need heavy arrows?
I understand that too light of gpp could cause harm to limbs, and be loud, but I'm thinking of making a switch from the heaviest arrow I can shoot to the lightest and most narrow.
If you are shooting at 3-D targets, it doesn't make a difference. Shoot what you want. If you are shooting at big game, penetration is much more important than speed. Watch some of the wheelie bow shows and notice how many critters they shoot that have a foot of the fletching side of the arrow sticking out. Speed = flat trajectory. Compound shooters like that so they can use fewer pins.
I want a complete pass through for quick kills and good blood trails. Unlike the 3-D course, I don't plan to shoot over 20 yards, so heavy arrows with great penetration are the rule for me. Read Dr. Ashby's reports and you will see why arrow weight is much more important than arrow speed.
BTW: if your 43# bow even approaches 200 fps, much less 250, don't ever sell it. It has some kind of magic in it.
Hope this helps.
I like a fairly fast arrow for 3D and hunting.I shoot 198 fps with a 430 grn arrow from my 52 @ 29" recurve.I think it's a good compromise.If I ever want to shoot a Water Buffalo I'll use a heavier arrow.
My friend and I are having this discussion as well.
He wants a relatively lighter, flatter shooting, arrow so he can reach out to 35 yards or so. He is ending up with 540 grains or so from his 55# Longbow.
I want a heavier arrow for momentum and penetration. And I've reached out to 50 yards with my heavy arrows target shooting (All you'all Solana Ranch hunters remember the "target shooting" of cactus pads that day?)
Will both work? Sure. Lots of North American animals were taken before Dr. Ashby gave us FOC and heavy arrows.
Personally, I shoot the same arrows for hunting that I shoot at 3D. 642 grains from my 57# recurve. My whole point in doing that is to train my on board computer through repitition at unmarked yardage. I've never chrono'd my bow and I never will...I drive an F-150 and I've never calculated my MPG either. It is what it is.
To attempt to answer your question about wheelie's...My wife shoots arrows ranging from 350 to 425 grains from her 42# wheelie. She shot and killed a 900 lb Kudu with the heavier setup at 26 yards. Got great penetration. I wouldn't have bet that the same result would have happened with her lighter setup. I have another friend who shoots wheelie's in the speed of 280 fps. He doesn't like the instability of greater speed for the supposed trade off of greater kinetic energy. He prefers to use a momentum equation vs a KE equation. He's an engineer for Agilent Technologies so I think he knows about all that stuff.
So, with that thought, is greater speed more unstable from trad bows when shooting lighter arrows? I don't know. It seems mileage will vary from what I'm reading from everyone on here.
My personal opinion is that if you are a bowhunter then you need to find the balance that is acceptable to you to get the penetration you need from the ranges you want to shoot at.
Oh, this bow has majic in it alright. It's more of a mojo thing than speed though. What ever it is, it's making my wife jealous!
I have seen what you're talking about on those shows. I don't watch them often but I can only rember seeing one complete pass through and that was years ago. I have also seen quite a few feathers hanging out from trad shots too though.
I'm looking for a happy medium. I want to shoot 3-D with the same arrows that I'm going to hunt with. I'm still learning my affective range but I'm also trying to limit the amount of passed up shots due to distance, within reason.
I read Ashby's reports a while back. I forget exactly how heavy of a bow he was using but I seem to recall it was somewhere in the 80# range.
He's a big fan of Tonto tips and single bevle BH. I wish he included mech heads in his tests too, if only to debunk them. I don't know enough about him to know what equiptment he's limiting his scientific tests to.
I shoot carbon arrows from about 500 to 560 out of longbows of 66 and 60 pounds at my draw. Penetration is not a problem. Of course I don't shoot into shoulders and on an elk, adding 150 grains or so wouldn't make much difference. I've shot caribou, elk and bear with this weight arrow. What I get that is necessary since I do a lot of spot and stalk is the ability to be pretty accurate to 30 yards or so in the field.
I used forgewoods for a while, but the flat rock trajectory just didn't cut it.
i love heavy arrows ! Shooting 680 gn's out of 55lb Hills....fly like darts out to 20mtres and i stump out to 150mtrs and beyond with them. Penetrate anything i'm likely to shoot at. Used to shoot both target and critters w/tapered cedars @ 525gns but after going heavy for so long my brain just sends lighter arrows over the back of everything !
Ashby's later reports dealt with lighter bows down to 45 pounds. He found that heavier arrows increased penetration with lighter bows to a greater degree than they had from the heavy bows.
Light fast arrows work just fine on the deer most of us hunt.The reason you see what looks like lack of penitration on hunting shows is not the speed of the bows.They are shooting 2" wide mechanicals on light arrows.Just cutting a lot with a light arrow.Stick a smaller broadhead more suited for the speed and arrow weight and you will get two holes more often than not.With light fast arrows small broadheads are the best choice.The little Stinger or buzzcut are great when you are shooting a little faster than some of these other guys. jmho
I agree James.I use the 125 Stinger.
Ashby did test Mechanicals and component broadheads. The mechanicals failed on what could be considered a regular basis. I've heard that there is actually a movement in colorado to ban mechanicals but I'm not sure.
I'm with James and RH - Just a touch under 8gr/lb out of a 53# DAS. Great trajectory, quiet and good penetration on deer and an elk for me.
4 blade Stinger for deer - 2 blade silver flame for the elk. Never shot a dead buffalo - probably never will. :)
Steve
James and RH...are your broadheads two blades or do they have the bleeders? My friend wants to use a 160 grain snuffer on his lighter setup. Would that be too much blade?
QuoteOriginally posted by 30coupe:
BTW: if your 43# bow even approaches 200 fps, much less 250, don't ever sell it. It has some kind of magic in it.
:biglaugh:
I've been shooting 400 gr arrows out of 50# bows for several years. I shoot a lot of 3D and hunt mostly whitetails. I get complete passthroughs on most shots. I've been using Woodsman broadheads or Thunderheads with great results.
I'm sure of I went after larger animals I would bump up my arrow weight a bit.
Boom: this is a debate that never seems to end, but if you are looking for speed, you are shooting the wrong kind of bow. Unless you go to a metal riser trad bow, like a DAS or similar, you can't safely shoot arrows which are light enough to give truly impressive speed. However, you can gain significant trajectory benefits simply by sticking to the old tried and true rule of staying at about 9-10 grains per pound. Your current setup is surely way over that weight. Try an 1816 or 1916 aluminum arrow, or one of the 600 spine carbons, and you'll have an arrow of around 380-400 grains, which will shoot much flatter, be safe for the bow, and still be plenty for deer and such. JMHO, Paul.
BTH I use the bleeders on mine.I personally would not use a snuffer on a light weight arrow.I love Simmons heads but will not use a treeshark on an arrow untill it starts getting close to 500gns regaurdless of the bow weight or speed.Big heads need mass to push them but shooting small broadheads with heavy arrows is a waste because you could be doing more damage. :)
BTH I also use the 125 with bleeders.It depends on what you are calling light.Thoes heavy Snuffers are also the widest Snuffer.I agree with James.If your friend is shooting 500 grns or more from 50+ lbs the snuffers will probably work fine.I would not however shoot them at 400 grns at 40 lbs.
Thanks guys. That's is the answer he's looking for I think. He's shooting a 55# longbow at 29 1/2 inches of draw. Looks like his arrows are tuning at about 540 grains. I think he's fine...he's new so he's trippin' on the details. I told him that pigs and blacktails will be dead with his arrows the way he's shooting right now.
you gotta remember that the compounds generate a heck of a lot more energy then a stickbow. Heck I had a 65# cam bow generting 83# of KE. Your lucky to see 40# of KE on a trad bow. Our game is making the best use of the energy we have and that means shooting heavier arrows and limiting our shot distance.
If I wanted to shoot 50 yds at an elk, I'd design a bow with wheels on it. LOL
Mike
If your shooting 3D as light as your bow will let you.But I like to shoot my hunting weight all the time.gain I shoot as heavy as me and my bow feels [shoots] confordable with.Use'ly not as heavy as I could go.You and your bow have work that one out.
Wingnut is correct, trying to compare compounds to stickbows, they have a lot more horsepower for the same peak weight, yet the "speed" they try to push hurts their penetration potential.
At 200fps your margin of error on a deer sized target at 40 yards is plus or minus 1 yard...At 250 fps it's 1.5 yards...
The way bows work, compounds included, if you increase arrow weight 100% you lose 25% of your velocity. So those worried about trajectory changes with 20% arrow weight changes, you're only looking at 5% velocity change.
Many are missing the point of the Ashby studies. His earlier studies looked at mass weight alone with broadhead design without taking FOC into consideration. Conclusion....More mass helped...
When looking at FOC, more FOC helped...A LOT! So much so an arrow at 8-9gpp with a high FOC (over 20%) will out penetrate an arrow in the 12-14gpp with a more typical FOC of 10-15% by as much as 100%...
So...Don't link high FOC and "heavy" together, they are seperate. You can shoot high FOC's at 7gpp if you want.....O.L.
O.L.,
I'm a believer of high FOC for non-bone hits, but when it comes to bone, mass is the key (at least that's what I read in the Ashby reports).
Jason
Yep, 650 grains with a high FOC is the heavy bone threshold no matter what weight bow it's out of....O.L.
O.L.,
Does that margin of error stay at the same ratio for a bow shooting 200 fps and one shooting 150?
Any info on how that half yard equates to inches on a target?
I would be very interested to see how 20-30-50 fps changes the arch of trajectory at say 30 yards in inches lower on a target.
It would be interesting to see exactly how much X fps would change the point of impact on a target that had been over or under estimated by 5-10 yards.
The bows weight has little to do with it, it is the bows effiency. A 40# bow shooting 8gpp. is as fast as a 60# bow of the same design shooting 8gpp. I always get a kick out of people saying that is fast for a 40# bow, doesn't matter if the 40# bow will do 200fps. at 8gpp. the 60#er will only do the same at 8gpp. I find for me, my minds eye likes an arow going around 190-195fps. and with my 3 main bows that translate into an arrow that weighs just a tad over 9gpp. I get the trajectory I want and still get enough energy to kill anything in North America out of my 51-54# bows. Shawn
Well as a reformed pro compound shooter, I can tell you that if you at 5 yds high on your yardage you are going to catch a high 8 on a McKenzie target, if you are 5 yds low you will likely catch a 5. That is at 312 fps with a 5 gpp ACE arrow.
If you want to hold the 10 ring, you'd better be within a couple yards on the high side and a yd on the low.
The 12 ring . . .well you know the answer.
Now take that down to 180 fps and the yardage tightens a bunch.
Mike
Fear not Toby, for I see the light!
RH, There are some external ballistics charts like on the Jackson site that would give you inches of drop. These assume perfect tuning, releases, and smooth wind conditions. Under those conditions a high FOC and a low of the same weight and external variables would fly the same. Real world the high FOC's will shoot much flatter and drift less. Interesting to look at however....O.L.
Thanks O.L.
I'm not familiar with the Jackson site but I'll do a search.
I'm starting to be more interested in high FOC.I'll have to try and find a shaft light and stiff enough to get high FOC and still stay around 8 gpp from my 52 @ 29" recurve.I'm shooting a 30.5 inch .400 now with 125 grn tips.It is tuned to group bareshafts and feathered arrows as far as 30 yards.
Lighter fast arrows and sharp broadheads all day long. Just say no to the chugging log!!