Bouncing around the Harrisburg show talking to outfitters and boy did I get a ear full.When booking a hunt.Tell me what are the negatives you look for out a outfitters mouth.
guaranteed hunt, 100%, bowhunt? sure we can get you within 60 yards. Just some of the things I heard yesterday while talking to different outfitters...Mike
Make sure your life insurance is up to date :scared:
All kidding aside, they are all salesmen. Expect no less, only good advice I can give is. Once you think you have made a choice, that fits your needs. Make sure you get a large list of past clients. Half a dozen is not enough. Call a lot of them and get there input. With what there experience was. Biggest problems I see experienced and friends have had is. The outfitters guides in camp, that you actually hunt with. That is the biggest downfall, you get stuck with a greenhorn know it all. THAT DON'T
Remember that guy at the show, is probably not the guy you will hunt with :campfire:
You hunt with a "WHAT", a long bow! And how close do you have to be? ..... Hear it all the time!
"Well, I can get ya'll a cull buck for $XXX or if you want to specify a P&Y class, that'll cost ya'll $X,XXX. Now if ya'll want a booner, it'll cost $XX,XXXX plus $XX amount for every inch over 170."
Or "Here are pictures of the deer we have to offer. Which one do you want?"
If they are at a show they are probably not the ones you want to book a trip with anyway.
I asked one 'highly recommended' Elk guide what his success rate was, 75% he said. Turns out any Elk he called to within 100 yds was a 'success'.
OK then; when was the last time an archer killed an animal you called in? After a lot of crap talk, finally, 1999 was the answer! 10 years no success!!
I am not making this up.
Ontario Canada you'll get a 300lbs bear no prob....
I'm with Bjorn on this one. If the outfitter is at one of these shows, I would shy away from them to begin with....just me.
I have always used a booking agent like Bowhunting Safari Consultants. They will book an outfitter for you that meets YOUR needs (i.e. traditional). If they ever have a real problem with an outfitter, they quit booking for them---it's that simple. You don't pay a penny more for their service than if you booked with the outfitter they set you up with directly.
Call them up or shoot them an email, tell them what you are looking for, and they can give you their options.
You won't be disappointed.
I disagree with Bjorn and A.S. These shows give you an opportunity to comparrison shop on a scale that you just can't get elsewhere. You also have the opportunity to interact with the outfitter in person vice over the phone or internet. Relying on personal references is fine, but being able to talk in person with a prospective outfitter is invaluable. Two years ago I went to that show in Harrisburg PA and interviewed over 25 different outfitters in depth for a trophy whitetail hunt. Another 20 I stopped talking with just 5 - 10 minutes into the conversation. I went with a prepared set of questions. When it came down to it in the end I selected the one that I was most comfortable with. I discounted most of those that promised a high success rate. Actually, most talk about an opportunity rate. I was careful to make them tell me what consitituted an opportunity. I think I'm a pretty good judge of character and I can do that in person. It's tough to do that over the phone or rely on a third part who doesn't know you to do it for you. The big flashy outfits from Pike County didn't impress me much because it all seemed like hype. I chose a smaller outfit that had only been up and running for 3 years. The outfitter was honest and genuine. They had 15,000 acres of leased land that had been managed for at least 10 years and they only took 40 hunters a year. I wasn't disappointed. My brother and I both took nice 140+ bucks. Go prepared and listen carefully to what they tell you.
With the depressed economy, these guys are stressed and I think you'll hear what they think you want to hear.
There are many good outfitters that go to the shows. Clients come and go and they need to replenish.
"We don't have room to bring the bear bait on the plane; so you decide who won't be needing their bow."
Most of the outfitters at these shows will tell you anything you want to hear. Be careful. Good luck.
There are plenty of good outfitters that market their business's at outdoor shows.The well established excellent one's likely will not have to do as many or any shows because of repeat bookings and strong referrals from happy clients.
I have been on two guided hunts that were both poor experiences many years ago.I am completely DIY now and don't expect that to change any time soon.
If I were to use an outfitter again,as a result of the experiences I have had I am pretty confidant that I would be able to vastly increase my odds at having a good experience.
Things like not being able to book for one or two years in advance is always a positive,getting the full list of all the outfitters clients for your intended hunt for the last two years with addresses and phone numbers,so you can mail them all a letter and contact as many of them by phone as you care to.Speaking with their outfitters and guides association and the Fish and Game department in their area's,specifically about things like winter kill and the abundance of game in the units you will be hunting in.Wanting to know who will be guiding you and having the opportunity to speak with him or her.
In a lot of ways I am thankful that I am a DIYer because it is all up to me,and I prefer that but there are solid guides out there.
The biggest mistake I had made years ago was being naive and trusting,assuming one of "our own" wouldn't lie to me.Just like one of "our own" wouldn't swipe a tree stand from us.Certain lessons come hard!
I've been a booking agent for outdoor adventure travel for a good while. sold my first hunt in 1989. I've worked the PA show along with others and I have to agree with most guys here. you will hear it all. my advice is to contact as many hunters as possible that have actually hunted with said outfitter. booking a hunt on the spot with an outfitter at a show is risky. get their brochure (get lot's of brochures) and then do lot's of research. in my business either myself or my business partner have been ourselves, or know someone very reliable that have been with every outfitter in our system. bottom line...do your homework and get LOT'S of referrals. if a hunter had a good trip he/she won't mind telling you all about it. if the hunt was bad, then you'll know in a hurry.
jus my 2cents
I was talking about when you first meet the outfitter and I'm talking more specific.Example:ATV's to take you to and from stand.
"We never did find that one fella" Sorry...had to. :D
" You'll have to be in good shape to do this"
It depends on what show you are at as to whether the highest quality outfitters will be showing up. The Dallas Safari Club Convention and the International Safari Club Convention (in Reno) attract many of the best (and often most expensive) outfitters from around the world. You can get (and will pay for) the greatest hunts available anywhere. The best ones have gobs of references, and many of their former customers will be hanging around their booths talking and booking future hunts too. Give the outfitters you mobile phone number and they can call you when former customers come to their booths. Then you can talk to those customers in person about the hunts.
Most of the SCI people are gun hunters. Many of them are also bow hunters, but of the bow hunters only a small percentage shoot trad bows. The outfitters cater to the people who actually buy their hunts, so naturally most of the outfitters guide gun hunters with a lesser number of compound bow hunters and very few trad bow hunters. The most common reaction I get to questions about trad bow hunting is that it will be very difficult to get within 30 yards, much less 20 yards, and the success percentage will be very low compared to the gun hunting. That may not be what I want to hear, but it is the truth, so I'm glad they are saying it.
I just watched Easton Bowhunting TV last night and saw Fred Eichler shoot a big Yukon moose on the second day of his hunt in the Yukon using what is think is his Palmer 54# recurve. It looked like a pretty long shot, but the camera lens can make the distance appear deceiving. The bull went down in about 60 yards, so obviously it was a very good shot. I am not the hunter Fred is, so I wouldn't necessarily have made the shot or had his level of success. Still, it is nice to see the possibilities. Those hunts are expensive -- like about $20,000, so if you book one, you sure want to have a good chance to actually take a moose.
What is it that I hate to hear most about a really good hunt? The PRICE!!!!!!!!! But on some hunts you either pay the money or you don't go. There is no DYI for US citizens in the Yukon. That part of the world is extremely remote. It costs the outfitter a ton of money to set up and equip his camps during the brief hunting seasons. He can only accommodate a few hunters every year. And he needs to make a profit so he can support his family and have the incentive to keep the hunting operation going. Those guys aren't making lots of money. They do it mostly for the lifestyle. Those hunts are simply very expensive for everyone, and the hunter has to pay to make it happen. The same is true for hunting in other remote areas of the world.
There are lots of much less expensive hunts, and some that are much more expensive than $20,000. The really good outfitters are often booked up far in advance, but even they have cancellations, especially in this economy. I have found that one of the best ways to get a good discount on a hunt is to get on the waiting list of a really good outfitter and then be willing and able to accept a hunt within two weeks of the day it starts. Not many people can do that, which is why the outfitter can give the discount. The hunter who booked the hunt will lose some or all of his deposit and the outfitter will discount things on his side too in order to defray his expenses.
The really good outfitted hunts cost a bunch, but there is no reason to save a little and get a crappy hunt that wasn't worth even what you paid for it. There are plenty of places to go for good, inexpensive "ranch" style hunts. They don't cost too much and are a lot of fun. Most of my hunts are just local rabbit, squirrel, deer, turkey, hog, varmint hunts with my buddies that don't cost much at all. But if you want a "hunt of a lifetime", a good outfitter who is going to be expensive is the best way to go for most of us. The big, expensive hunts are unbelievably exciting and provide an experience that will create memories and stories that will be with you as long as you live. But they come at a price that many will be unable or unwilling to afford.
Stinger and Tocs have it right on there being good outfitters at the best of the outdoor shows and conventions. Booking agents can also be a big help, like SSWV suggests. If anyone wants the names of some of the top booking agents (whose hunts are usually expensive, and for good reason) send me a PM and I will list a few of my favorites.
Allan
"Huh...look at that the sun is setting in the East, again" :bigsmyl:
Duane
"You'll see more P&Y bucks in 3 days here then you will in a year back in New York...we just have to make sure we keep the gate locked at night and the electric fence is working properly." :saywhat:
I don't want to hear stories about the idiot bowhunters he's had come hunt with him. And how every hunter that wasn't happy, was the hunters fault.
When you take on the responsibilty to call yourself an outfitter, well you take on the responsibility to comunicate with the client and meet the clients needs.
Mike
" You only need to book a two day hunt. The first day we'll drive up and you shoot the deer. You'll be in the bar by evening"
Really heard this from a high fence Mo. outfitter.
Ron
"You ever kill anything with that wooden bow?" "Bring a gun just in case"
In case of what?
I don't know about that...but I can tell you one thing an outfitter/guide doesn't want to hear from a hunter-
" This elk hunt is NUTHIN' like the MONSTER BULLS videos I watch from Realtree".
True story....a Virginia bowhunter showed up with brand new boots he'd never worn, and didn't shoot an elk the first day so that's what he told us at dinner the first night.
The second day he complained about his blisters all day.
Third day through the end of the hunt, he sat in a treestand over a waterhole no elk came to all week, because we had record rainfall.
Only, a monster bull did show up on the last day- he missed it.
i was at the other end of the spectrum on this issue..i was the guide and the outfitter promised the hunters all book bulls in archery range,luckily big bulls were falling out of the trees that year.but just remember the outfitter just wants to sell you a hunt...after that you don't matter to him anymore.(most of the time) VERY IMPORTANT....CHECK REFERENCES AS STATED. thats your only chance at getting your monies worth.
I have been an outfitter for 15 yrs i always use shows to promote my business.ALWAYS I MEAN ALWAYS get alist of his references tell him you want both sucessful hunters and ones that didn't kill.Any outfitter worth his salt will has a big list.Never I mean never book at a show. DO YOUR HOMEWORK IT IS WAY TO EPENSIVE TO THROW YOUR MONEY AWAY ON A CROOK.
The hogs have been a little nocturnal lately. We are actually closing this ranch down and moving to another one you guys are the last ones hunting here. The outfitters 11 year old boy asks us what we are hunting for, hogs we said, good luck he says as he laughs ( seriously). When we pull in at 9:00PM the outfitters girlfriend runs out of the house screaming he is a crook and steals money from little girls. All at the same ranch I even called the guy 3 times to check on the hunting before we came and he never mentioned nocturnal not once.
I'd check on the actual number of hunters... If they boast a low number then you find out there are actually 50% more, it can be a little frustrating. Especially if the "guide" is doing all the killing!
I would want to know who my actual guide will be and have a chance to talk directly with the guide. Most outfitters won't be able to tell you that because they turn over from year to year. But based on past experience I will never book a hunt again unless I know who I will be walking in the woods with. A good outfitter with a great camp and fine food cannot overcome a guide who doesn't have a clue.
Most outfitters don't know from year to year who their guides will be. Often they are someone who just happens to be out of work at the time and sign on for the fall.
I've done two fairly expensive guided hunts. On both trips there were guides in camp who were in the hunting area for the first time in their life. On one, the guide had hunted moose himslef before, but had never guided anyone.
Leason learned - get the name of the guide. Have it written into your contract who your guide will be. Most outfitters can't do that for you, so I have sworn off most guided hunts for my future. I'm not going to lay out thousands of dollars to follow an incompetent guide around the woods.
Its interesting to hear both sides of this story. ALL outfitters have to get their hunters from somewhere, that means you will find good and bad and everything in between at the tradeshows. I work at tradeshows for a living, all kinds, and I have been in marketing and been a guide. REGARDLESS of what business it is, there are bad sales people and some of those think that making the sale is the only thing that counts. If you think there are bad outfitters, you should guide for a while and meet some of the hunters! When calling references remember the hunter is NEVER going to say that he couldn't, walk, he couldn't shoot, he couldn't stalk, it was the guide and or outfitters fault! By all means get an extensive list of RECENT references, both sucessful and not. I have been given first time guides on two hunts also, but I actually PREFERRED it, in both cases the outfitter knew that I knew what I was doing and told the guide to just follow me around to make things legal. I don't know why it still surprises me, but it does, an outfitter, booking agent etc. can give a hunter a very specific list of how to prepare for a hunt and the hunter will totally ignore it, the hunter will come to a place they have never been to hunt an animal they have never hunted before and may never have even SEEN before, BUT they THINK, they know more about than the guide.
I can tell you one secret, why many outfitters do go to the shows, they have a policy of NEVER booking a hunter they haven't met and talked to in person for a while, hopefully that sorts out some of the worst yaahoos, so maybe the one thing you do not want to hear from an outfitter is, "ahh, I think we are all booked up".
I hear you Rick, and totally agree - there are probably far more bad hunters than there are bad guides. The hunter is foolish to book a trip without being totally prepared himself. In my experiences I don't really think I was asking too much though.
I expected a guide to know the hunting area and how to get around in it.
To be able to navigate back to the camp or vehicle without getting lost. I've had a guide who didn't carry a compass or GPS and was terrified of getting lost.
To take wind direction into account when trying to approach an area in which he expects to find animals or when setting up to call.
To be able to walk somewhat quietly through the woods.
To be in some sort of reasonable physical condition. I had one guide who literally had to use his hands to lift his legs over deadfalls because he was so out of shape.
On a five day elk hunt once we were told hunting in the afternoons wasn't productive. I'm sorry, but with only five days to hunt I expect to be out at least morning and evenings.
I could go on, but basically I know now that I didn't do the homework I needed to do before booking the trips.
Absolutely there are bad guides and outfitters, but they are not around for very long, although that may be of little consolation if you get stuck with them. Unfortunately we hear lots about bad guides or outfitters, when in fact many times it was the hunters fault, but because of the unwritten rule,"never bad mouth the client", we usually only hear one side of the story and assume, that its the whole truth. That happens especially when its a well known hunting "personality", its a sad state of affairs when someones ego drives them to tell everything EXCEPT the truth about why they didn't take an animal.
Word of mouth is the best advertising its also the worse and its very easy to cost an outfitter or guide his livelyhood, by telling lies to save someones ego.
I also think far too much emphasis is placed on "success rates" Outfitters often would prefer to talk about "opportunity rates" and that is probably a much fairer way to look at it. If the hunter can't shoot, or is too out of shape to get to where they need to be, it is nobodys fault but the hunters. Also, the hunter should not go into a hunt thinking that by paying their money they are entitled to kill an animal. It should be a hunting trip, not a harvest trip, and the performance of the outfitter and/or guides should not be measured only by the kill.
I have also guided and what Rick says is true as is what Whip says. I mean we should all be adult about things, if you lay out hard cash you should not expect to coach the guide, but equally you should be properly prepared. Any outfitter will tell you about some of the real lulus. I once spent time in a joint venture not hunt guiding but big 5 walking. When the project was over I thought I would take my wife and be a paying client as it was a very nice place. When we arrived the head ranger welcomes us and then takes me aside and says " We have had a few changes and we have a couple of new guides, would you mind going with them, you know the reserve so well. Give them a bit of help and let me know what you think of them." I was a bit nonplussed but we were getting the private vehicle treatment at no extra charge so it might be fun, a working holiday. Well with the best will in the world I can only say the two were babes in the woods, and didn't know much at all, happily we did not meet any cross animals I doubt they had fired their rifles. But I have not given a finer guiding service to my wife and these two likable nonpaying hangers on had free training. I had one question,"Why did I have to pay full rates for the weekend?" People are strange.
chrisg
In my experience and most guides and outfitters will tell you the same thing, if there is a problem with the guide or the outfitter or something else, TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. Why do hunters go all the way through a hunt, without a single negative comment or suggestion and then go a tell all their buddies nothing, but bad stuff when they get home? I am talking about CONSTRUCTIVE critism or suggestions, because constant complaining, won't win anyone any friends in camp.
"Which flavor of freeze-dried meals do you prefer?"
Awright!
Now I can get the truck fixed!
:bigsmyl:
Rick,
Have you ever made the constructive critisim and have em turn on you. I had it happen once years ago when I was on a moose / muledeer hunt in British Columbia. The guide was brought in the day we got there from another area. He'd never hunted with a bowhunter but was a moose guide.
The outfitter double booked the 10 day period and had high dollar rifle clients in for goats and moose. He sent us with the second rate guy to the second rate area.
We saw 3 moose in 10 days of mostly riding in a truck. When I suggested that we booked a horse back hunt for moose and deer, I got my lunch handed too me.
I tactfully explained the situation to the outfitter after he got back from the high county. I shot a black bear on one of the last days and he hit me up for an additional fee.
Needless to say, I didn't pay it.
Sometimes the hunter is right and the outfitter just sticks it too em.
You gotta be careful anytime you book a hunt.
Mike
This one really hits home for me. I booked a hunt for black bear in Maine 2 years ago. I had been saving my money for years and really wanted to harvest or at least see a living wild black bear. What can I say 2000.00 later and a week in a stand that had a wrong wind direction. I saw 0 bears. I did not say anything to them because I was told by one of the guides that, mouthy people in the past don't get the best stands. I could go on and on about other things that went on there, but I wont. The only good thing about this hunt was the food and that's sad. I am saving up my money and hope to try it agin one day. Here is my advice, high priced outfitters don,t always mean the best hunt. I went with one of the most expensive outfitters in Maine and it stunk.
Good luck out there,
Bryan Horner
.
I agree with get a list of references and call. One outfitter promised next year for half price if we don't get an opportunity. Why would I go back if no Moose?
Booked with an outfitter that was recommended by an archery shop. Turned out they were in cahoots. Outfitter knew all the right answers.
Rode around in a squeeky truck all week. Guide a heavy smoker too.
should have called other references.
BigArcher
Killdeer,
You are killing me.That's what I'm looking 4 in a answer.I know the reference check and all but some outfitters will let you know right away you could be in trouble.What are the things that tip you off that this oufitter isn't the hunt for you.
Wingnut, nope, I never had one turn on me for making constructive critism, I have had some thank me for pointing things out that nobody had, before and I know some changes have been made based on things I said. One good indicator of an outfitter is how much REPEAT business they get.
I need all the money when you book the hunt. That's a red flag for me, because if he goes out of buisness before the hunt, then I'm out of all my money.
After working for a cirtain outfitter around the san antonio area, you basically dont know untill you show or hint gratuity to your guide (The green horn staying in camp with you)After all he is gonna be the ultimate reason for succes or lack there of... the green horn knows the animals more than the guys at the show.
Larrymc
My family has a hunting ranch in southern MO that has been in operation for 8 years now. We go to a couple of shows a year for a vacation of sorts, if I had a buck for every guy who turned his nose after being told that we can't guarentee him a deer/turkey {afer all we can't shoot it for them}. We probably would not have to worry about bookings!
If you are booking a hunt where riding horse back is required, be CERTAIN that the outfitter keeps his lifestock all year long.
Some places just rent horses they need for the season. I suppose there are other things more deadly than a rented horse...and when I think of them I will be sure to let you know.
Want to know who is riding the best trailwise horse? Ask the guide to swap horses for the day and judge his response.
A "rodeo" (as the guides quaintly call such an event on the trail)is no fun.
Also a good idea to get a muscle relaxant drug to loosen up the thighs.
Bob
TTT
The outfitter that I work for has pretty much stopped going to shows because it is not cost efficient in tough times...he prefers instead to drop the price of his hunts and let word of mouth be his advertising...so the one thing I would not want to hear is "sorry, I do not have the contact information from a variety of satisfied clients"
DDave
"Sorry, but I just don't know when the moose start to rut around here...and besides, I never tried to call one."
In BC guides are licensed. Ask the outfitter if you are going out with a guide or a guide's assistant (both are licensed, but the one is still apprenticing).
If the guides are not registered, report them.
Ask the outfitter if they are registered with GOABC (Guide Outfitter's Association of BC). Not a guarantee, but as a self-regulating organization they do fairly well at weeding out the under-achievers.
The flip side in coming to BC is be honest with your outfitter about your physical conditioning. Don't sign up for a remote sheep hunt and then arrive unable to make it to the first bench (with 2500' more to go).
Even spot and stalk bears here can involve a lot of hustle to gain elevation. There are no 'easy' hunts here.
Talking to a South Africa outfitter, he told me they were seeing quite a few black mambas recently. Said the best thing to do if bitten by a black mamba is to immediately get in the cool shade. He said I would die just as fast, but wouldn't start to stink as soon.
Turns out he heard me talking to another outfitter that I knew and I admitted I had a bit of a phobia about snakes. He thought it was pretty funny, but it turned me off a bit.
Overbo, you mean once you arrive for the hunt?
Some good funny stuff here.
The price!
....Your how old....????!!!!!!
Three of my buddies and I booked a guided Maine Bear hunt some years ago with a prominent and well known service. Much research and many reference calls were made. Most of the responses were positive based on the success rate that the service had. We mailed our respective deposits and when we drove into camp, there were 15 other vehicles there and no one from the service was available. When one of the guides finally appeared after some folks had waited for hours, the first thing that was done was to pass the hat for the remainder of the monies due. Something that I understood had to be done, but it was extremely detached and matter of fact. We later found out that there were only 2 guides for 22 hunters (one bow and ther rest gun). We were told to scope our rifles and site them in for 50 yards. They eventually put us on the only active baits that happened to be 20 yd archery stands. Off came our scopes and we had to resight our rifles. One of my buddies had no front site on his rifle and he had to sight it in using the barrel. There were no tracking dogs on the property (despite that being one of the supposed advantages), and the owner that we communicated with never showed up in the 10 day period we hunted. The guide assigned to us had us follow him to the bait sites (about 10 miles from the base camp), but unfortunately he lost us in a cloud of dust as a result of his high speed over the heavily rutted logging trails. I had a new vehicle and could not afford to destroy the vehicle trying to keep up. We had to turn back and head back about 5 miles to the main camp to discover that our guide was already back and having a brew. He never attempted to find us after he lost us, nor was he concerned that we had never seen the stands. We almost had to force him to go back out with us. We all got out bears and enjoyed cooking for ourselves, but when one of my buddy's bears couldn't be found, the guides refused to go back out with us to track him, so about 8 of the other hunters got together with us and we tracked the bear and brought it back that night. I would never book with them again despite our success. A guided hunt is not just about the kill.
there will be mixed weapons in camp! run when you hear that one!
THE ONLY guided hunt I've ever been on was with Tarponnut here on tradgang for hogs.
I hate going guided. I like all DIY and would eat tags all day for the most part. I happened to be nearby for work and I don't have access to wild hogs...so what the heck!
He was flexible, knowledgeable, worked to make my hunt a successful experience, and we had a great time. I blew chances and that all I can ask, for a fairchase hunt where it was really up to me. There are few species of animals I would consider a guide for and I had so much fun I'm doing it again this winter.
A service seems like a good way to get quality too.
Unguided hunts are enjoyable to me because I feel like I did it myself and worked to achieve something. I have a hard time just tagging along for the shot. I do realize sometimes there isn't a choice.
I'm considering bears here in MI next year, but that seems to be a tough one to get a handle on. Too many bad reports to get excited about.
I don't want to hear anything about food. I'll just stay home if I want "great food".