The seasons over now it's time to play.My current set up is a 48#@26" longbow.My arrows are 27"goldtips with 265 up front,250 head 15 grain insert.I would like to try 350up front,250 head 100 grain insert.What do some of you think will happen with the extra 85grains? My current set up shoots great just felt like playing.Is 350 insane?
I'm shooting 300 up front off one of my bows. So not insane.
I just added 100g insert 100g screw in adapter and 125g glue on magnus to my front end of CE heritage 250's. Shoots and groups with the field points of 125 145 175 with only the 100g insert.
Flight is terrific and penetration exceptional.
you mught find that the extra weight weakens your spine and you might have to shorten your arrow length just a bit to stiffen it back up. Other than that it should work fine.
Bisch
I shoot 400gr up front on my setup and my arrows are flying very well...but it is not for everyone so play with it and see where it goes. I am shooting 50# Samich BF Extremes shorts on a Morrison mini 14 ILF riser...shooting 55/70's cut at 28 1/3 inches.
I just bought some woody weights, waiting on them to get here. I am going to experiment with 3000 Gr up front. I was shooting 260 with an alu. arrow.
i assume your using 35/55 g/tips. like bisch said, glue one up and see if it will tune before you reach your minimum arrow length. i'd say you should be right if you've got an inch to play with. but i don't think you would have to cut more than an inch. they stiffen up quick. let us know what happens. we all learn from feedback.
good luck.
you won't look back if you get them going. 350gr upfront rocks!!
300 gr points/ broadheads and 100 gr brass inserts are shooting well for me on several bows. Shoot one and see how it flies.
Pete
yes they are 35/55's.They are cut to the shortest length I can use.
They may fly just fine. Try them and see. You could always put a wrap under the fletching, which will stiffen them some.
Dragonheart 3000 gr. may be a bit overboard!! Good luck on your bow search Bud.
Holy Moly! No wonder I have been shooting low at 15 yrds! those arrows sure did penetrate the ground well.
Just added more weight myself and I'm at 350. I'll shoot tonight and know more. Expecting good results. In a few days I'll have another head weighing in at about 375 so I'll let you know how they shoot as well.
Mike
I shoot 360 up front on my AD's and they fly great
For me there is a point of diminishing returns. I shoot 225gr. upfront in carbons. I am happy with the penetration AND the tradgetory. I have some forgewood shafts with 215gr tips. The total weight is 800gr. At 20yds. they group all of 5" lower than the carbons.
It's fun to fool around with this stuff and see what works for you.
I think it'll work for you Bucky! I shoot 27 1/2" arrows (CX150's) with 300 gr. at the tip and like you have a shorter draw length making my bow around 50 lbs. They fly great and bare shaft right with my fletched arrows. The FOC arrows really seem to hit the target hard!
I am shooting a 44# morrison cheyenne gold tip 35/55 with 300gr up front they fly like darts and good penetration toatle weight 545GR
i shoot 350grs to 365grs up front
total arrow weight 700grs 60lb bow.
trajectory is not an issue, i like to hunt close.
I shoot MFX's with 300 up front (100 insert/200 tips). Perfect flight, penetrate like a red hot knife in butter. :thumbsup:
Just got home.It's dark, put the spotlight on and shot the arrow.It flew great!I know I did this backwards, meaning I should have bare shafted first but I couldn't help myself.I will bare shaft tomorrow.
George :eek: :scared: :eek: bring one over and let's see.
I been shotin 300 and 400 up front and today started to play with 500 up front and like it.
Why bother bareshafting if it flew great :saywhat: Just shoot them!!
where can I find these heavy heads. what kind are they?
Mat,3rivers has it all.My field points are 250 grain with 100 grain brass inserts.My broadheads are 125 magnus 2blade with 125 steel adapters. Dennis,I was thinking the same thing.
I glue on heads. shoot woodies. thanks tho Bucky. was wondering if there was a head that heavy without adapters.
Heavy heads, try out the 300xtreem from Morrison archery - real bunker busters.
axis 400-301/4"+ 300gr = 615gr, perfect from ILF or cheyenne 50@28
ASL
For the last wk been playin wit carbon and likeing the results.I have a BW PAX 50#@29" and put together a CX Maxima 150 @ 31".It has a 150 grn hd,cx insert w/100 grns of wgt screwed into the back of it(goldtip),also a 4" pc. of 2117(39 grn) epoxied to the front.And it flys great and hits hard(593 grns).It also has a cx wgt tube(red),and wrapped w/4-4" fletch.Cant wait to drive that baby thru a deer!! Experimenting is FUN!!!
It really surprises me you guys hunt with these extreme setups?
ElklNut1
what is extreme: a quiet bow- stable flight or deep penetration?
All we know is a properly tuned arrow with high FOC ( min 20% ) does achive all above.
ASL
My arrow weight went from 484 to 569.This is 11.8 gpp.I'll be doing more testing but I really hope this arrow works out.
When a guy has a setup that exceeds 225 grains of head weight, well that seems very extreme for deer & elk setups or other critters of that size & toughness!
It makes me wonder if some have severe penetration issues on like game so they try making this up in over the top setups! To each his own but 300-400 grains up front is truly overkill. (grin)
It's like hunting deer with a .458 win mag! (grin)
If I'm just uneducated in thought, then please educate!
ElkNut1
I am of this opinion also Elknut1. I would rather have a little more speed with 225gr. upfront than lobing a lot more weight into the target. I see the impact that my arrows make with 225gr. and I just don't see the need for more weight. Maybe I am missing something. But I think I have a great killing combo as it is. At some point more is just not better. Just my opinion.
There is a great discussion going on about FOC here on the board.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=070291
I only got into FOC because I was using OL tuning method and got to his Thoughts on FOC. Since I had every thing set up I just kept going with adding weight and tuning. I had always shot 125g upfront with my compound so when I started with Trad bows that was my tip weight up until last week when I added 100g brass inserts for bare shaft tuning and played with tips of 125 145 and 175.
For kicks and giggles I added another 100g up front. Im now at 325g and tuned in some BH's. They shoot with authority and I like the sound they make when they hit. Front weights of 225 to 325 all group together without me having to change my sight picture.
I think the best modification was adding the 100g insert which put me at 225g which will be enough weight for anything I hunt.
What will I settle on for hunting? Not a clue. For me this is playtime and shooting time in the backyard and testing what I have read. We are talking about 0.22oz difference between 225g and 325g if my digital scale is correct.
Guess I need to go shoot at some real live Florida hogs and see what happens.
I'm with elknut1 and snag, that being said I have a batch made up and good lord do they penatrate! Will prob. go back to my 150 grain tips though.
I hear ya for sure! I without a doubt favor the up front weight. In my short years I've have noticed the better penetration over the lighter setups. I generally hunt with 170-200 grains up front & it seems to work quite nice on elk.
When I've been shooting 170 grain heads for a few weeks then up it to 225grn for the heck of it, I too notice that respectable thump, actually it's kinda cool sounding! (grin)
I've personally settled on a total arrow setup of 540grn with 175 grain of head weight on a 2018 at 57# out of a longbow. It hits with authority with a 3-blade SnufferSS.
Thanks for your info!!
ElkNut1
I have to see for myself. :readit: .Don't know if I would want all that extra weight at the end of my arrow on a 3-D course. :eek: I would consider it for hunting though.I guess I'll stick to my 220 grain Muzzy Phantoms and practice with my 190 and 250 grain field tips.
Shot today and was very pleased with the results.This arrow flies great!It was also very windy here in NJ today which made it a better test.Now I know I'll get flamed for this but I'm not even going to bare shaft this arrow.I shot it at 30 yards with both a field point and broadhead.I'm sold on this heavy FOC.
Tom,we'll shoot Sunday.
You guys are tying total arrow weight and FOC together, they are totally independant. To get XX FOC on a given shaft, if it's heavier then you want, you need to use a lighter shaft.....O.L.
I was reading and wondering how long it take Mr. Adcock to chime in to correct some things (FOC and arrow weight).
Thank you sir :notworthy: :biglaugh:
I don't think we are talking the same shaft with different tips. I don't think you could get the same shaft to tune with a 125 or a 300 grains up front. At least I can't, O.L. Adcocks thread about the perfect arrow is a must read!!!!!!!!
I shoot 400 gr up front on my Ad Trads, I shoot out to 30 yards and they are perfect for me out of my 60# bows.
Danny
525 grain total arrow, 300 grain point. I just started playing with the lighter shaft. I'll take this setup anyday over 525 w/ 125 gr head. Until you hit bone, penetration is not a problem with any sharp BH.
Bob, my question is, what do you consider to be bone robbing penetration hits?
I agree 125 is a bit light. I like 165grn plus but really nothing over 200grn give or take a few grains! Arrow of use is irrelevant to me, as long as it's tuned to your draw weight & setup & doesn't porpoise to the target loosing valuable penetrating energy!
Head weight is necessary to a degree, I like the best of both worlds. I want a stable arrow with respectable punch with a razor sharp head.
To me, respectable punch is acquired according to each individuals draw & setup. A 550 grain arrow out of my 56# longbow tipped with 165-200grn 3-bladed head will penetrate any bone on an elk where vitals are on the other side out to 35 yards on doable shot angles. This would include quartering to you frontal shots to broadside shots to quartering away shots.
A balanced outlook is needed to entertain various angles & distances, this can keep trajectory in balance & not be overboard one way or another!
If all shots were 20 yards & under & from treestands, then I can see excessive head weight being under control with minimum trajectory & great penetration. But for all around elk hunting perspective one needs a setup closer to what I've mentioned to keep all avenues open & increase his odds of success, yet not sacrifice penetration or trajectory issues!
With these thoughts, one can hunt game such as deer & elk with total confidence! Head choice is a personal decision.
ElkNut1
I shoot CE 250s which are about equivalent to #84. So, it tunes well with a total of 225gr. upfront. (I'm shooting a 55#@28" recurve) So, are you guys saying to put 300+gr. on the tip of a lighter AND stiffer shaft? What would you recommend for this? I'll give it a try.
For me, 275 to 300 grains up front flys well. I look at things this way, I want the absolute heaviest shaft I can shoot in the 170 fps range because that is a trajectory that I shoot well. I would like to shoot even more front of center but my current arrows shoot well with 275 up front for a 620gr arrow zipping at 176-178fps from my horne. More would be nice, but this is what works for now.
Dan
Elknut1, "Head weight is necessary to a degree, I like the best of both worlds. I want a stable arrow with respectable punch with a razor sharp head."
You make it sound like there is a trade off there...There isn't...Out of a 55# bow, following your recomendations, which would be better, a 550 grain arrow with 15% FOC or a 550 with 25%?...Same tuning of course....
More FOC means more stable...More FOC means more punch...There is no trade off, only a persons ability to put together a tuneable combination...O.L.
I shoot 350 gr up front on Beman 340's, 28 3/4" long. I use 5" feathers and it shoots great. Bare shafts shoot right with the fletch ones out to about 30 yards. This is out of a 56# longbow.
Am I calculating FOC correctly? I shoot 30" 2018's. Shaft weight is 12.31gr/inch which equals 369gr for a 30" arrow. Nock and feathers are about 5 grains. With 125gr points, 19gr insert, 10gr adapter, and 30gr weight, that gives me 184gr up front. Total arrow weight is 558gr.
My 184gr up front, plus 95 grains will give me 279gr, which is exactly half of my arrow weight. If I go back from my point exactly 7.7" (or 95 grains worth of shaft weight) I will be at my mathematical balance point of the arrow (equal weight on either side of this location on the shaft). This location is 7.7" behind the point, or 7.3" ahead of the center of the 30" arrow. 7.3" is 24.3% of 30", meaning that the arrow has a 24.3% FOC.
Am I calculating this correctly?
Oddly enuff I've shot a bunch of carbon arrow set ups from 450-660+grs 125-250 up front and bothe the 150,s and the 250's and they ALL fly pretty dang good for me.I shot side by side a 29.5"250 with 125 up front and a 30" 150 with 145 up front from 20 yrds both hit the 5 spot and didn't apear to wiggle.
I've gotten bare shafts to fly mint with both 125 and 250 grain tips on the same arrow from the same bow with very little adjustment to the side plate or NP to tweak it
I like the heavy tip since my home made heads are 250grs and they seem quieter...slower too so I guess out beyond 30yrds it may make a differance but around 20 it don't matter
by the way 450grs from a 57# LB blows right thru a whitetail same as 660grs at least they did for me
So, if I am shooting a carbon that is weighing 10gr/in as a bare shaft and has an equivalent spine of around 84# with 225gr up front do I then need to go up in spine weight to around 90+# with a shaft that is 8gr/in or less in order to add another 125gr. up front? How's that for a sentence...? I have been happy with the CE shafts...any recommendations?
I find myself checking this thread all the time now lol. I shoot axis shafts (love them) but not alot of options to go to a lighter shaft. Now has anyone done testing with a FOC arrow (on standard carbon) against an axis that has a lower FOC? My axis 400 29 inchs BOP with 250 up front shattered the femur on my follow up shot on a cow elk. Now this is my heavy set, I also shoot a axis 500 with a 150 grain tip 28 BOP( I shoot this one better). Now if I can get a better penetrating arrow and pick up some speed I'm all for it.
Snag
I am shooting a recure 54@28 with the CE250's
I used a 100gn insert for the bareshaft and the fletched arrows. Finished weight of arrow,fletch and nock is 460gn without any point.
I don't know how or why but adding tip weights of 125,145,175 and finally 225grain does not seem to effect arrow flight that I can detect out to 20 yards. Bareshaft and Fletched maintain a 5 inch group.
Question for all
So is the 100grain insert part of arrow weight or upfront weight?
AM I shooting an arrow that weighs 360 or 460
If its arrow weight then my setup is a 460g shaft and 225point. If is upfront weight then I have a shaft of 360g and a tip weight of 325.
Either way the FOC is about 21%
Now I am confused. One thing I know is the arrows are flying great for me. IS 685gn too heavy for a 54# bow?
Its the up front weight.
O.L.---I've never thought about it that way!!! That's just short of a stroke of genius there!! (grin) You & I could get along just fine!! Now that's using some common sense. I have a whole new outlook there. I will definitely try some various aluminum combination's to achieve the same weight yet trying out heavier heads. Thanks a ton for helping me see the light! (grin)
ElkNut1
Just calculated my FOC,26.7.Is this extreme?Like I said my arrows are flying great.I also can't believe I haven't been flamed for saying I'm not going to bare shaft.I'm making up more arrows and will shoot alot this weekend.Sunday my buddy Tom (Bentpole)will join me so he can witness this.
I broke out my pro chrono this afternoon and shot 225 and 325 up front hunting setups. There was a 10 FPS difference the 325 being 10fps slower. The shots were taken about 5 feet away from the chrono.
Bucky and I had some time today. We put the arrows threw the test both bareshafted and with feathers. I had a Gold Tip 35/55 without feathers cut 28"s.I draw 27"s. The arrows flew great. Slightly slower than my 190/250 grain heads granted, but they didn't drop like I figured they would. The bow I was shooting was 47#s. Bucky's bow was quieter with the heavy heads. They did hit like a ton of bricks. I guess it's up to the archer if you want to go to this extreme. But they did fly very well.
The results at 25 yards.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/shortstuff5186/000_0980.jpg)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/shortstuff5186/000_0979.jpg)
No biggy Elknut1.. :) ....Guys the way bows work, if you were to double your arrow weight, you'd lose 25% of your velocity. So going up or down 10-20% in total weight doesn't make much difference in trajectory. A big part of the higher FOC's, tho lower FOc's will fly or tune well, they aren't as forgiving to our mistakes. Screw up a release the same way between high and low, you may still miss, just not as far cause the higher FOC's corrects faster. The fletching has more leverage....O.L.
I also find I shoot better groups with extreme foc, just another reason to use them. It also allows you to use less fletch (higher lever arm as OL stated) lower profile, so the arrow is quieter in flight. I could never get use to the noise from a 5" shield, man its loud in flight. Take an extreme foc arrow with the Adcock fletch and turbulator and you have one heck of a setup IMO.
I certainly see and appreciate the difference of my arrows flight and my grouping has certainly improved. 225 up front is going to be my minimum it is giving me an FOC of 15 based on total length.
Hey Bucky,
I don't see the need to use that much weight up front since your just shooting at Jersey White Tails not Cape Buffalos. If you what to shoot arrows with a rainbow trajectory like an artillary shell then go ahead. But don't wonder why your shooting 5 yards short into the dirt when your deer is only 25 yards away from your stand.
You would be better off IMO to spend more time practicing shooting your bow with a lighter weight up front, use a 2 blade broadhead and take the time to sharpen them till they pop hairs off your arms.
That Thunder Sitck Mag you have realy zips an arrow. Take advantage of a flatter trajectory shooting a lighter arrow, not a heavy arrow with a trajectory that lobs your arrows into your intended target.
Larry,ask Tom they don't hit the dirt at 25 yds.
Bucky,
Your drawing 48#'s with your TS Mag. I'm drawing 3#'s less than you with my TS Mag. I know with my bow any weight more than 180 grains up front and my arrow trajectory starts looking like a rainbow. I just think you'd be better off with the flatter/faster arrow with a hair popping 2 blade head than a head weight of twice that ammount that arcs through the air like a rainbow. Again your hunting deer not cape buffalos.
George maybe we can set up a day to get together and show Larry and Reiner. :saywhat: Reiner said he's sorry he bought those 125 grain Muzzy Phantoms instead of the 220 grains. :knothead: I told him to get some 100 grain inserts and he would be set. Larry didn't I give you some weighted inserts a while back? Carbons alot different than aluminum for sure. For our shooting of 20 yards and under there isn't that much difference in flat flight. :archer: It's up to the archer/ individual as to what he wants to shoot, is comfortable with, practices with,. What ever floats your boat.
Look at my pics.Those are in my yard at 28 yds,no dirt on those heads.
I just ran my CE 250's through my Pro Chrono.
the 125 and 225 are cut to 30"@11g per inch. The 325 is 30 1/2" @ 11g per inch. What I find interesting is that the 225g is faster then the 125g.
I have reran the chrono test 3 times and the results are consistent using 2 blade broadheads shot from 6 feet through the chrono.
125 up front 158
225 up front 164
325 up front 153
The 225 up front would be my choice! Thanks for the info.
I tried bareshafting some CE Heritage 250s today. I put 100gr inserts in and screwed in some 250gr. field tips. I cut them down from 29.75" to 29" and they are still showing weak. I might go down to as far as 28.5" to see if I can get them to work with this weight. At 29" 175gr tips with the same 100gr inserts tune perfect. Just trying to see what would be the max weight I could use with these. I'm surprised that with all that weight there isn't much difference in the tradgetory from the 350gr vs 225gr(that I usually use) upfront weight.
I'm corn fused you can't possibly pickup speed by adding 100 grains to the front of an arrow can you?
I got my 250s at 30" with 100g brass insert and a 125 tip. I can not go shorter due to draw. great flight and best speed. I think I lucked into finding the proper bow arrow combo. I think these will do fine for deer and hog.
I may try some 350's with higher front weight later.
MO Huntin.
I am just as confussed as you. I think perhaps more then anything else I just hit the best combination of bow and arrow tuning. I rechecked setups several times and have shot several more times. I keep getting the same results.
Boy....I shoot a tip weight of 260, and then a 100 brass insert in my arrow....They fly fine
QuoteOriginally posted by frassettor:
Boy....I shoot a tip weight of 260, and then a 100 brass insert in my arrow....They fly fine
Not out of my 60# Bear TD, we had to drop the point weight down to 125 for a total of 225 - :p Those things still hit like a sledge hammer though.
I suspect the reason the 125 was slower than the 225, is the arrow is loosing speed in recovery because it isn't tuned as well as with the 225 head.
I have been using 360 up front (counting brass insert weight) on gold tip 55-75s they are killer and fly very well. The total arrow weight is a bit more than 600grain. They do drop a bit more past 20 yards, but no big deal since I feel comfortable shooting out to 35 yards with them.
I've noticed at 28yds my 566 arrows drop about 2" compared to my 481 arrows.That doesn't bother me since my max shot at a deer is about 20yds or less.At that distance there is no drop with the heavy arrow.I've shot more the last 3 days then I have in a long time.I can't believe how nice these arrows are shooting.The important test was with my broadhead and that shot just as good.
Douglas
I have been shooting trad less then a year and this was my first time trying OL method and having the ability to just try everything. I had never gone above 125g up front even in my 10 years of compound. I would have said the 125g were fine if I had not read all the posts on upfront weight and FOC and continued to tweak. For now I am sticking with the 225 up front. They are the ones touching fletch at 24 yards. the whole group is about 6". Of course shooting a couple hundred arrows has not hurt either.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/heilakka/arrows/ce%20250/DSCN3401.jpg)
metsastaja, looks like you found your perfect arrow! Congrats!
Thanks Bentpole I do too.
Me and a couple of friends switched to carbon and found that the best combination for us has been 100 grain brass, and a 125 grain tip. this gets us up to a reasonable weight arrow to hunt with.It is also easier to find 125 broadheads, small game heads, and points at our local stores. Since the demand of the local hunters is based on 100 grain heads out of a compound we seem to find all the 125 heads we want in the clearance bins around town.
They sure look nice in the target Les. Good shooting.
Found some good reading on Pete Wards site.Look at his trad review for Ace points and he talks about heavy point weight.(Peteward.com)
Well its been about 2 months now and I can't find one reason not to shoot this set up. That's it,the 350 stays.
I guess I dont understand why some think its "overkill" to have to much arrow. I like 1 arrow for everything from a Racoon to a moose. Keeps it simple...Why not shoot a "extreme" arrow for everything, as long as you get great arrow flight and penetration :confused:
350 up front, 29" beman 500, 585 total arrow weight, 29.7% foc, 55.5# longbow. it's what works best for me.
all this chatter about foc and front end package weights can get too bogged down in gear techie-ness - all that matters is what works best for you and yer bow ... and that's gonna take some s'perimentin' and less spectulatin'. :cool:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
350 up front, 29" beman 500, 585 total arrow weight, 29.7% foc, 55.5# longbow. it's what works best for me.
all this chatter about foc and front end package weights can get too bogged down in gear techie-ness - all that matters is what works best for you and yer bow ... and that's gonna take some s'perimentin' and less spectulatin'. :cool:
:D Well Said!!