I recently went to a Gander Mountain for some nocks for my 2117 arrows, he asked me why I wasn't shooting carbons and shooting aluminum instead. I told him that I was shooting aluminums because they are more forgiving plus they have a little more weight for more penetration. Now I have been told by a few people that I should use aluminums because I will get more penetration even though I will lose some speed, because I am only pulling back 52lb with a 125 grain broadhead. Will the little bit of extra weight that an aluminum arrow has make that much of a difference?
The narrower diameter of the carbon's will likely make up for the extra weight of the aluminums regarding penetration. They're both good shaft material. Aluminum is generally a little straighter, comes in a greater range of spines and costs a little less. Carbon is tougher,thinner and easier to front load due to a slightly larger variety of heavy inserts. Shoot what you want to shoot. The guy was just trying to sell you stuff.
Aluminums have spine and can be matched to a bow quite readily. Carbons do not have spine... all they have is attitude! If you are young, you have time to match carbons. If you are old, you probably do not.
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Seriously, I did find the carbons, especially in light weight, difficult to match compared to alums. Also, I was unable to find inserts and tips that matched the diameter of the shaft, and I really hate a tip that's bigger than the shaft. I did get a match, but if I were to get serious about them, I would have to make a dedicated effort to learn how to do internal weighting and finding all new brands and sizes of inserts and tips.
The big advantage I do see is no bent arrows... broken, yes, but not bent. I'm down to very light weight aluminum arrows and that may force me to try carbons again if I experience a bending problem this year.
I have never been able tune a carbon arrow. Must be something I do wrong. Aluminun arrows for me are easier to tune, easier to cut, easier to change inserts and just seem to work better.
That being said from what I have seen a skinny carbon arrow, weight loaded up front will penetrate better than a similar weight aluminum.
John
Swagged Alumium...2117's!! :thumbsup: ;)
I like carbon arrows for compound bows, but aluminum arrows for trad bows.
You should have asked him where they kept the POC shafts.
Just tried some aluminums for the first time. I purchased some Easton Legacy's for my Savannah and really like the results thus far. I'm thinking seriously of permanently making the switch to aluminums for this bow.
+1 for the carbon is hard to tune complaint. It may have better penetration, but aluminum has killed a helluva lot of critters for many, many years.
i like carbon. once u tune an arrow just stick with what works ,i been shooting the same type of carbons for a year. plus i like them because they are either straight or broke.. its tuff to bend carbon outta shape ;) but then again i like light arrow set ups. so pretty much for me it seems carbon is the only choice for me.
Personally I don't understand why people would want to shoot carbons because they like a lighter set up. IMO a person hunting with a traditional bow should stick with a heavier set up for penetration reasons. Traditional bows aren't going to break any records for speed, there not made for that. Each to there own though.
One thing I've got to ask. Have any of you noticed that carbon arrows are terrible for seeing blood on them? I hate Inspecting a carbon that passed through on an animal. I can never see or find any blood on them. I like seeing evidence on an arrow. It can tell me allot about the shot.
I'm thinking that when my new bow arrives I'm gonna get some aluminums. Carbons are great for durability but the more I hear about aluminum arrows the more I want to try some out.
Schultzy....I favor aluminums but its hard to argue that Carbon doesn't penetrate well. I personally don't like playing or having all that FOC.
My hunting partner shoots a homemade 48# longbow, Carbon arrows cut 29"(he draws 27") and Wensel Woodsman broadheads. All his shots this year were roughly 20 yds, one was 12. He passed through every animal shot and recovery was less than 75 yds.
Now you know he'll never go back to Wood or aluminum after seeing this years results. As a dealer for Arrow Dynamics, I played around shooting Carbon. Flew like darts out to 60 yds, out penetrated my 2117's in close range dirt pile shooting.
BUT...I just love my swagged aluminum. Same wt and tolerance every time, fair priced and my Dougherty Naturals and Legacys just plain look good. To each his own but carbon seems to be the way of the future....
A guy sure can't argue with the results your buddy has had. I wouldn't be switching If I was him either. :thumbsup:
Thanks guys for all your input. I do have one more question for ya. When I shoot carbons I have to aim, when shooting at a deer target, where the legs meet the ground (if that makes sense), but when I shoot aluminums I have a more reasonable aiming point, in the middle of the ground and the bottom of the target (or the chest of the deer. Now I don't look at the tip of my arrow while shooting, I can see it through my peripherals. The few other trad hunters (the only three I know) that I shoot with don't know why this is. Any input that you guys have would be great. I have flirted with the knock placement a little but I get worried that I might mess up my flight. I just received my new Whisperstik (The best bow I have ever shot) and this only occurs with this bow. With my old bow I would aim right at the bottom of the chest. Is this something that I just have to get use to or can I fix it some how? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
I'd say It's all In the difference of weight Jack. Your carbons are possibly lighter and faster then your aluminum's and thus they won't drop as quick as your aluminum's do.
I shot aluminum for a million years coming from cedar and fiberglass. When I bought my last bow the bowyer convinced me to try carbon. I learned sevral things quickly. The carbon recovered from the bow quicker, was simple to tune, and weighed more than my aluminum arrows did. Where's the down side? BTW I used Carbon express Heritage series shafts which are designed for trad applications and are heavier than those designed for compound applications.
I can't see me going back unless something unforseen changes things. I have been shooting the same shafts for a year now without any breakage as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by Schultzy:
[QB] Personally I don't understand why people would want to shoot carbons because they like a lighter set up. IMO a person hunting with a traditional bow should stick with a heavier set up for penetration reasons. Traditional bows aren't going to break any records for speed, there not made for that. Each to there own though.
Not all carbons are light.I shoot the Ad shafts, and I consider them heavy. They are 715 gr, shot out of a 58# bow. I myself like heavy shafts. They are the "best of both worlds" to me, they have the weight of wood, and the straightness of carbon!
Frankly, the kids working as "archery experts" in places like GM, Cabelas, etc, impress me more in their ignorance than any level of expertise. In particular, GM seems to consistently hire these arogant know it alls...
Quite often, they assume they know far more & better than the customer, and know better what he needs. That, and they don't bother to converse long enough to actually find out. Add to that the vast majority don't know jack about Trad archery & tackle...
Just in the last few months I overheard two instances of two different young men dispensing
goofy advice based on what they "know" because that's what they were told at some seminar put on by a bow company.
If I went to buy some nocks for alums and the sales-dweeb questioned why I didn't shoot carbon, I would have to tell him to pound sand and take my business elsewhere. And have done just that...
Both carbon and alums have pros & cons. I personally shoot both. I find alums easier to tune to a bow due to the more narrow spine attendent to each size. Alums are easier to build/fletch/work with. Their greater GPI weight without having to diddle around and add extra is an advantage for a Trad guy.
Carbons are tougher, period...
But hey, if you are getting the results you want with alums, I sure wouldn't change just because some sales dweeb at GM doesn't like em'...
I shoot carbons because they are extremly durable, come out of paradox faster and fly flatter. I have shot thru shoulders of deer (not that I aim for the shoulder with a bow but stuff happens). I had a dozen arrows last me almost 3 years of hard use. Most of those arrows were lost rather then broken.
Don't get me wrong, I still have a boatload of aluminum arrows and fling a few from time to time but when it's time to chase deer, I'll be launching carbon.
Your results may vary.....
JL
Someone mentioned that carbons are easier to front load. NO. They are not. The fact is any arrow that is hollow can be front loaded the same way. The fact is, nearly all carbons must be front loaded to bend properly unless ungodly long.
There isn't as much trouble when one shoots heavy bows, but once you get under fifty pounds, it becomes a big deal with anything but a cut-past-center bow. The carbon arrow companies have a good product that can be made much better by applying more consistent wall thicknes through a different set of spine categories, so one doesn't have to front load so heavily.
If you find anyone at a retail outlet that knows anything about traditional archery, you should put them on your address list. Most don't know there is anything but pulleys and cables and other thingies that you absolutely need to shoot a bow(?). They have no clue about spine or paradox; deflex or reflex, or anything that would involve serious research.
Gander Mountain is like any other big SG retailer, including Cabelas and Bass Pro; they are there to sell what is popular to the masses.
JackP
The reason you see a larger ,"GAP",with carbon arrows and your aluminums from your new bow is added speed and cast.
George
I don't front load my carbons.Mostly though I shoot bows in the 45-55 lb range.I draw 29" and my arrows are between 30"and 30.5".I shoot .600 from 45 lb bows .500 from 50 lb bows and .400 from 55 lb. I use regular aluminum inserts and usually 125 grn tips.
I do agree that when you have short draws or go under 45 lbs your carbon choices become limited.Maby the new GT shaft will solve some of these issues.
Beman ICS Energy and Easton Redlines can be bought as light as 1000 deflection.These carbon shafts however are very skinny and require non standard points and half-out inserts and such.They are fine for targets but not a hunting arrow.
Buy your fishing stuff from Cabella's and GM. Get your arrows or arrow advice from a real Trad shop.
I've been shooting Gold Tip carbons, and I like them, but I am going to switch to wood. At least I'm going to try it out anyway.
I agree with those who say aluminums are easier to tune and carbons are tougher. Whatever you find works best for you, buy as many as you can before they change the shafts or quite making them. I have had both happen to me over the years.
Jackp, i know a lot of guys shoot carbon arrows but for me i've not had good experience with them. I normaly shoot 45-50 pounds, and it seems hard to get a carbon to fly good for me. Aluminum is so much easier to tune to my bow, as far as durability, i have'nt had a problem. I've got aluminums i've had for years. I love wood too but to get good wood arrows it is too expensive for me. Aluminum is actually the most CONSISTENT shaft material.
Yeah I keep forgetting that they do make much heavier carbons these days. I still wonder though why some of the guys are shooting light set ups whether there aluminum or carbon with any bow period.
This is a good thread for me. I have always shot aluminum for my old compound and now for my recurve. with all the talk I was considering going over to carbons, but do not want to invest in a whole new shops worth of tools to tune some. When my new limbs arrive I will probably stick with aluminum and up the tip weight.
Thanks you guys for all the advice and your input. R H Clark - Is there anything I can do to close the gap?
JackP
I switched to three under to help close the gap.Anything you do to your anchor to get the nock closer to your eye will shorten your point on,effectively closing the gap on shorter distance shots.
You can also lengthen your arrows,but that will require you to shoot a slightly stiffer spine and will only help so much.Lengthening is probably only useful if you were trying to fine tune to shoot spot on at 20 yards like for an indoor spot shooting match.
You can shoot heavier arrows,which will work well on closer shots but it will increase your arc of trajectory on longer shots.
I'm primarly a 3D target shooter.Shooting three under with slightly longer arrows and 8 grains per lb for arrow speeds around 200 fps has hepled increase my score a lot.
It's a lot easier for me to judge a gap that's a foot at 20 yards.When I shot split finger that gap was closer to half the distance to the target at 20 yards.
R H Clark - I do shoot three fingers under, but as far as shootings some longer arrows, will that make me lose penetration? That is what I have been told anyways. As I'm sure everyone can tell I am a new young traditional hunter with a very little info on trad hunting, so all this info is greatly appreciated!!! Thanks for everyones help!
I wouldn't think a longer arrow would hurt penetration if it is as well tuned as your shorter arrow.If your shorter arrow is tuned properly you will have to either lessen point weight or shoot a heavier spined arrow, to properly tune a longer arrow.
If you are concerned about penetration,a small diam.carbon front loaded to make a slightly heavier arrow than what you are shooting,will solve your gap problem.You will also get better penetration than a same weight aluminum.
Unless you have a 25 inch draw you aren't going to shorten the gap much with a longer arrow.
Do you anchor with your index finger? If you can go to a middle finger anchor,that will probably help to shorten the gap more than a longer arrow.
Yeah I put my middle finger in the corner of my mouth, when I get home this weekend ill try different anchor points and see if I can't get something to work. Thanks for your help!
Anchoring with the index finger in effect lowers the rear sight and decreases the gap. Anchoring with the middle finger raises the rear sight and increases the gap. So, if you switch from the middle finger in the corner of your mouth to the index finger in the corner of your mouth, the gap will decrease, regardless of the shaft material used.
If you're conscious of the gap, and from the way you described your shooting in your initial post, you are, you are gap shooting, not using split vision. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Gap shooting works particularly well when the distances are known and the gaps can be locked in. In hunting situations, where the shot distance can change by the second, split vision accommodates the changes more quicky and easily. Might want to practice that as well. Gpod luck.
I have just never understood the concept of carbons being hard to tune.An aluminum is just as hard to tune if you go and buy one that is not spined for your bow. :confused: Easton makes carbon arrows in spines that will shoot from any weight bow without going crazy with brass inserts or 300 grain points.Just do the research and buy the right arrow to start with like you would if shooting wood or aluminum and you will never have problems.Buying arrows by looks or grns per inch instead of spine is what creats the problems people have. :) jmho
In the past you had a wide range of aluminums to chose from. Pick the length of arrow you wanted to shoot, broadhead/fieldpoint weight and could tune any setup. I fought going to carbons for years because when I tried them a dozen years ago what was out there was junk. Easton is slowly getting out the aluminum business based on their reduced selection of aluminums over the past couple of years. Made the switch to carbons in the last year and I couldn't be more please with the performance of them. Can bare shaft them with a big varience in point weight and they take a beating. In my opinion the smaller diameter increase's penatration.
Personally I can't stand aluminum arrows, clink clank ewwww! plus I'd bend a dozen a week. I like carbon then wood. The carbon arrow is about the greatest thing to happen to archery in the last 50 years.
I have some carbons sitting around which I tried shooting thru my Pearson Mustang 50# recurve. Normally shoot wood. The carbons shot great. So how do I compare spines? I have 5575s, 6705s and another marked with only 400. How do these equate to aluminum or wood for spine? Also, they seem to be 5/16 shafts, but a couple are just a tad less. My gauge does not have a step down from 5/16 to match. Is that normal?
Thanks
sam
I,m with Joe on this one.Penetration is never a problem,with my 8.6 swaged Bear magnums. I have no intention of switching any of my equipment or getting caught up in the media hype.jmho.
I avoided carbon arrows for all the reasons mentioned. For years I steered clear of them, sticking to aluminum and wood.
One day I was shooting with a friend who was shooting carbons from his compound. My 3-D target fell over driving our arrows into the ground. My aluminum arrows were ruined. He dug the dirt out of his nocks, and put his arrows back in his quiver for more shooting.
I decided to give carbons another go, and have never looked back.
There are more choices available than ever, they ARE more durable by a longshot, penetrate better, and are really not that much more money in the long run.