Was looking at ordering a new recurve by a well known company, until I saw they raised the price for 09' on the order of $100!.
They weren't exactly reasonably priced before, but this puts them in the realm of ridiculous, particularly in a recession with a tanked economy. Really tough to justify nigh onto $900 for essentially a production recurve right now for most anyone...
Rather than raise prices, it seems to me that the American/Canadian bow companies would be smarter to come out with less expensive production type hunting bows, similar to the bows made by Samick.
Your thoughts?...
I've not raised my prices. Take a look, www.tradstore.com/mta (http://www.tradstore.com/mta)
Mike has some of the best priced bows out there. Chad at Holm-Made is another reasonably priced bowyer. You just need to look around some to find the bargains.
Lots of great used bows on the classified's.
I bought a check-mate Hunter, off the classified's, just before Christmas. Mainly because I didn't want to wait 4-6 months for my bow, it was also very close to what I was going to order.
Daren
It's simple economics. If the price is not what you want to pay. Don't buy the product. The only way you level the price inflation is to not buy products that are not worth the price.
I found it ironic last year at a shoot, a customer had our recurve and two from well know companys out shooting. When he came back, he said yours shoots better then either of these. How come yours is $300 less? I told him he should talk to the other companies and ask How come theirs is more.
We are trying to hold our prices this year as close as we can. It's real hard when all the suppliers are raising prices on everything.
We still believe in selling a high performance bow that looks good at an affordable price.
Mike
Way to go Mike!! Your bows are tops!
I'll second Chad Holm at Holm-Made. Makes an awesome bow for the $$$. Just got one from him a couple of weeks ago. Very happy camper here.
Im stil a good buy
Check out St. Joe River bows. Not the cheapest, but still reasonable. There a lot of great bows out there, but IMO you will not find one that will out shoot a St. Joe!
I did some checking on bow prices, the other day and it is getting a little crazy! I saw one bowyer who is asking $1100 for just the limbs!!!
chris <><
There are many great custom bows available for less than that amount. Many of them are built by members/sponsors here. I just don't see spending that kind of money on a production bow when I can get one made to my specs for half or two thirds of that. I also like to support our individual (or partner like Mike and Jason) bowyers. Granted some of my bows are second (third, fourth...) hand, but the only production bow I have left is my old Black Bear, which by the way will stay right here.
I don't own a Dryad (yet), but I love to visit their website and dream. Mike and Jason make some awesome bows as do many of the others who visit here regularly: Chad, Maddog, Jason Kendall, and many others. Many are well under that $900 figure and look and perform exceptionally well.
Prices will level-off or people will eventually go out of business. We have created the monster by giving a sort of royal status to certain brands over the past few years. That made others think they could ask huge amounts for their bows as well. Then Martin sees it is lagging behind by keeping their bows affordable and raise the price on them to custom standards.
Unemployment right now is 7% but that is only those who are listed on National scale...those actively seeking jobs and on those roles. The real figure is closer to 10%. It's going to get even worse. Those of you making great money better keep you senses sharp and mind those finances. This recession is not nearly over and no one is exempt from rough times.
I don't mean to say anything negative but it is part of our fault.
We criticize wheelie bow shooters about having to spend a grand on a new bow every 3 years to stay up with the competition. But we don't do much different. People here spend tons on custom bows, shoot them for a few months and sell them.
Just like the wheelie bow guys we have to have the newest fastest this or that. Or the prettiest.
Just like broad heads that are 75 dollars. For many people it's a peacock kind of deal and the more it costs the happier they are to show off.
Rather than go for the supposed "simple bow" they have a 1200 dollar bow and a $100 dollar arrow. It all gets away from traditional archery if you ask me.
Check out Assenheimer and Marriah. The Hoyt Gamemaster and Dorado are also excellent bows that are reasonably priced.
MIKE TREADWAY MAKES A FINE BOW AT WORKING MAN'S PRICES. MY VOTE FOR THE BEST BUY AROUND.
If I was a bowyer and I was selling every bow I could make, then if I raise the price, I'm STILL selling every bow I could make???...then I made a good business decision.
Don't fault a man for making a sound business decision.
Bowyers have families to feed and like to have a new truck now and then just like the rest of us.
I think George is right, we more or less bring this on ourselves.
When I was shooting compounds there came a point that I decided I would never spend more than $450 on a new bow and stuck with it.
Of course, the rest of the archery world continued to have no qualms about spending a grand on a Matthews or Hoyt.
So much for my individual stand & boycott... :biglaugh:
I hear you brother. I ordered a custom bow in June and looked at the prices again a few months ago and they have gone up over a hundred bucks. Does anyone know how long it takes a good boyer to make 1 bow? I realize that you get what you pay for and am not complaining, just curious!
Hey Brandon
Holy cow, 1200 on heating costs, you need to move somewhere warmer.lol
I can't afford one, but your bows are worth what you charge.
Kurt
There is no low end from bowyers like Brandon and other small custom bowyers who want to put out the best. I hope they stay in business with that mindset, because there are more folks who can't afford those beautiful bows than those that can.
Large companies, like Martin, can afford to make some lower line bows. They did it decades ago and they can do it now. When you cater to only a part of society, you are bound to them for your livelihood. Poor folks like to have decent bows to shoot as well, so they will defer to the companies that can provide the product, or go to the classifieds and auctions.
Hey Brandon, You left out all the dust and fumes you get to deal with, that's worth something, ha.
Not many millionaire bowyers out there.
Prices on everything are going up: labor, materials, power, etc. It just costs more to live now than it used to. Custom bowyers do charge (most of them) a relatively high price for their goods, but they make a relatively small amount of them, so they have to make their margin on every one they sell. Look at the prices on production Martins and Bears now; would you pay that kind of money for those bows? I'd rather pay a bit more and get what I want. But that's the bottom line: we are willing to pay what bowyers are asking, and prices won't come down as long as we continue to buy.
Brandon, you are right on.Most bowyers build bows because they love archery and building bows.Just my .02 worth!! Bob
Somehow I got the impression from the first post that he is not talking about "custom bowyers" but a mass production maker.I've been wrong before though. :saywhat:
double post...oops.
Actually Brandon makes a real nice bow for $499. The Tomcat is a definite shooter with a good tag and a take-down to boot.
We need good quality lower priced bows for folks starting out. Most aren't going to drop big bills at the beginning. I don't begrudge a single bowyer of any dollar he earns, because they sure as heck earn it. It is good to have an understanding that low cost bows help build the sport and a business too.
Buy what you can afford.Want a high dollar bow?Buy used.Or get a blank and finish it yourself,thus saving money.Pretty simple.I don't like high priced anything but but quality does come at a price.I've got my custom bow company choices narrowed down to two.250-450 range is my limit for a bow.And both bowyers have been mentioned in this thread.
My bows are reasonably priced because they have to be for me to compete as a relative newcomer. Some day I will have to raise my prices because I'm not seeing much of a profit and I guess that is the end result I'm looking for.
There is a lot of hidden expenses involved in running a small business. Why do you think you have to pay an electrician, plummer, auto mechanic, etc. 60.00 plus an hour for them to make an average living? How many of them are rich? Running my bow shop has more hidden expenses then many of the other lines of work mentioned. 11% Federal excise tax and liability insurance is huge for us and it is something other lines of work do not have to do. How many full time bowyers do you know? If they are full time you can bet most of them have spouses that work and carry the insurance. This year I found out I have to sell 25 bows a year to break even. After that I start seeing some profit. Not complaining. I'm having fun but it does tickle me to see people complain about bowyers making 10.00 per hour then don't bat an eye at paying the plummer 60.00 per hour. (not a knock on plummers by the way, they have a "crappy" job.)
To answer a previous question, I have about 12 hours into a bow, not counting phone time or other time related to the business end of things. Take care, Chad
QuoteOriginally posted by Holm-Made:
My bows are reasonably priced because they have to be for me to compete as a relative newcomer. Some day I will have to raise my prices
Please don't raise until I decide on my order. :D :D :biglaugh:
Hey Rich come over to Rutland and you can shoot one of Chad's bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by vermonster13:
Hey Rich come over to Rutland and you can shoot one of Chad's bows.
I'm pretty sure you've got alot of bows I want to shoot my friend. :readit: :D :D :p
Yet another prices too high....
Brandon has it pretty much right, Most don't have a clue to running a business....All that profit??? Somebody please buy me out and start making all this money. If it weren't for 2nd incomes, you would not have 1/3 the custom bowyers we have today...
If it is priced higher than you can or want to spend, look elsewhere, You will get what you pay for...
I noticed 3 Rivers Archery really raised their prices on some of the bows they carry..$459.00 for a Martin X-200...I think I will look else where. I would never pay that much for that bow. Not now not ever.
I think Scott Mitchell of TimberHawk Bows has a great product and a nice price also.
I retired as a Deputy Sheriff after 22 yrs. its a good thing I dont have to depend on making a living just on running a bow shop.My primary income is my retirement.I spent $53,000 on a 36x48 shop when i had it built 5yrs.ago.Thats alot of bows to sale.In 2008 I made 88 bows.You have to like what you do.
As someone who, for the first time in my life, is looking to buy a custom made bow I, too, was a little shocked at the prices I was seeing. However I can, and do, understand the economics of you who are producing these works of art are laboring under. I could see you, too, have expenses and labor you have to cover to do what you do. In addition you are making these bows one at a time, not mass producing them, which adds to the cost of each one.
Just letting you guys know, I do not begrudge you what you charge. After all you, also, had to spend years perfecting your craft to turn out something that someone wants to buy. We pay for your expertise. If I wanted a cheap bow I can get one. BUT....I would have a "cheap" bow. How long would that last?
Thanks for what you all do. Wish I could buy one from all of ya.
Bravo to the bowyers! :clapper:
Dan
My question was simply why aren't we seeing more economical bows particularly from the outfits that are essentially or specifically making production bows?
As far as I'm concerned when you are bringing in employees to help build a bow, it's no longer a custom, but more on the order of a semi-production or production-made-to-order bow. The only reason to do this is clearly to build/sell more bows at less cost to the business owner.
It was no slight or slam on custom bowyers (i.e., individuals who make one bow at a time by themselves w/o any help from employees). To the contrary, as a guy who was a mercy pass in Junior High Shop Class, my hat is off to these guys, like my buddy Tim Finley of Kota Bows, who truly build bows one at a time by themselves.
For that matter, it wasn't a slight or slam on anyone making bows, it was simply a question.
However, as I see it the kettle isn't all that black as Brandon & Bob make it out to be.
A bowyer or bow company owner also travels to shows, shoots, and hunts, advertising, testing, promoting, & selling his stuff, all of which is tax deductible. As is I assume, heat for his work shop and the truck on which he advertises his stuff with stickers or custom plates as he travels around. He can also take time off as he pleases and set his own hours.
Plus, presumably they are doing something they love. My axiom has always been when work becomes work and is no longer fun, quit and go do something else...
Look at the BlackCreek Banshee by Jim Gainey of Alabama. He is making the needed sacrifices to keep his prices low. His bows can match up to anyone's, his workmanship is excellent.
He is going to raises his prices this year, by only $25! His start at $400.
"Just because it cost more does not mean it is better".
Well we have painted ourselves into a corner haven't we. We like things that are traditional and don't want to go with the times.
I purchased a Hoyt Dorado for $400.00 and it is a mass produced bow. Wait Wait oh it has a metal riser and there is no laminate to speak of. Gasp it has pre drilled holes in it for a shooting rest and for a stabilizer.
Well that just isn't a true traditional bow. I won't buy that. Yes it shoots sweat and the materials it is made out of are inexpensive and the entire riser can be recycled. But it isn't traditional enough for me.
I shoot off the shelf with no pins no stabilizer pulling with fingers and make my own flemish strings but my bow is radical.
""My question was simply why aren't we seeing more economical bows particularly from the outfits that are essentially or specifically making production bows?""
If your not finding what you want at the price you want to pay, Start looking elsewhere!!!
There are great bowyers out there and some great prices to be had.
I got the bows I wanted for a long time, the pain and wait made it all that more special!!!
Brandon I am glad to see you want to be an Entrepreneur. Start up a business of your own and don't look back. Don't let any one tell you YOU Can't, there just the ones not doing it!!!
Good luck
I have 2 Morrisons, a Blacktail, and 3 other bows. Entertainment wise I have less than a dollar an hour in each. Before archery I had a bassboat and all the goodies. That was probably a couple of hundred dollars an hour for entertainment. Archery is great!!!!!!!
Mr Morrison said above that you get what you pay for and I completely disagree as this just isnt always the case. More expensive does not necessarily mean better. There are some great bows out there that are underpriced and some OK bows out there that are way overpriced.
QuoteOriginally posted by Holm-Made:
I have about 12 hours into a bow, not counting phone time or other time related to the business end of things.
you left out all the R&D to get to that design. How much time/effort/money did it take to get there?
I am Guilty of paying to much for a bow several times over the years. The way I look at it is Trad Archery is my hobby I don't have a 25,000+ bassboat,1000+ golf clubs,a 40,000 4 wheel drive truck, or even $5000 4 wheeler sitting at home. I have paid around $1000 for a bow twice and several bows in the $600 to $750 range. They were all really nice bows and I enjoyed owning and shooting them. Will a used $100 bear recurve kill deer you bet it will if thats all you are concerned about. I can't blame a bowyer for making a living they have lots of cost to running a business and feeding themselves.I was self employed till last year my health insurance alone was $300 a month just for me not counting family. When you do the math none of these bowyers are making the Richest Americans list last time I checked.
Tax deductable doesn't mean Free.... You have to make enough to do the show ( not free either) the hunt or what ever. All of this is not a 100% deduct from you taxes. My Health insurance is $425 a month and that is $3000 deductable. One of the things about being a custom bowyer even with employees, you can take off, start work and quit when you want and build bows for who you want. Its not all that bad.
You also need to remember that the service and warranty you get are built into the price for guys like Bob. He backs his bows like few others and gives service second to no one.
Bob I think most fellows that have never owned their own business don't have a clue to the extra expenses it takes to make things run and the amount of time and effort a guy has to put into the business to make it successful. I owned my own business for 16 years and loved it but it was very hard and everyday you wondered if you would make enough to keep the doors open the next month. Plus when you have employees you loose sleep worrying for them and their familys if your business was to fail they would loose their jobs also. As far as bows go they are not all equall from the start. You take a bow add carbon,highest grade wood avaiable, phenolic, snake skins these things cost the bowyer extra also. And with mass produced bows you can make less per bow because you sell more bows. When you make 100 bows or less a year thats all the room you have to make a liveing after cost. Fact is everything is high these days who ever thought there would be such a thing as a $50,000 pickup truck?
I shoot a couple of Martins and a Lonetree Custom and all do really well, the shooter doesn't always though. I too look at the Web sites of bow maker and dream, but my family comes first and my bows all shoot well for now.
We had very few bowyers in the 60's and 70's, most were big businesses. Demand will always decide the fate of those trying to sell, and demand will drop if people are priced out of business. There are great bows being made out there for less than $500.00 by individual bowyers, so yes....$900.00 is too much for a bow made of actionwood and clear glass.
To answer your initial question, I think most bowyers offer a basic bow at a base price for the economically minded buyer. That usually includes colored glass and a riser that is not laminated. This bow has the same workmanship, durability, warrenty and performance as the bows with the options. This is for the guys who want functional bow that will last a lifetime and don't want to pay for the fancy extras. To me that is what custom bow making is about finding a bow that fits the buyer and the buyer's budget.
Like buying a new ford pick up. They have XL models, XLT models, Lariat packages, and the "King Ranch" package. The XL will provide the same performance as the King Ranch but if you want swuede leather seats your gonna have to pay for it. (just like ebony risers and snakewood veneers) ;) Take care, Chad
If your wanting a Ford (Which I drive now) that is fine but if your wanting a Corvette your not going to get it from a Ford dealer or even close to the XL price. Thats just the way things are...If your going to spend $250 on a bow Don't look at $900 bow and say it is overpriced....
If bowyers go out of business, then they did not react to the customer base with a product that would sell. That's not the consumer's fault.
Bob Morrison, the problem is there are very few if any $250.00 bows, and if a person does buy one of those, I'm sure they know what they are buying and not expecting a $900.00 bow. The problem lies in a person making a $500.00 bow and charging $900.00 for it.
In the end, the customers will decide whether or not a particular bow is worth a particlar amount of money. A look at the various classifieds and auctions will give a hint as to what may be happening as we speak. I sure don't want to see any business go under, whether it's archery, golf, or any other sport. Failure to react to customer demand, both now and in the future, will decide who stays and who goes. Good luck.
George,
I understand where you are coming from, but do you expect bowyers to work for below minumum wage. If you are building bows by hand you have up to 20 hours in each bow. The average sunk cost in the bow is over $125. So to build a $250 bow your asking the bowyer to work for about 6.25 an hour. Now you are probably retired. But how many of the folks asking for prices too drop are working for less then $15 an hour.
Why is it that folks think that custom bowyers are rich people that are making a lot of money. We are mostly month to month manual labors that just try and meet the bills.
I'm with Bob on this one. If you want a $250 bow, stop looking at $900 bows.
We are making a bunch of bows under $500 and some still think we are making a killing.
Kinda hard to swallow from our end.
Mike
QuoteThere are great bows being made out there for less than $500.00 by individual bowyers, so yes....$900.00 is too much for a bow made of actionwood and clear glass.
Not if they don't shoot the same. Is the bow made from actionwood a better design than the $900 bow? Or does it just shoot better for that person?
Only the consumer can justify the $400 difference.
QuoteThe problem lies in a person making a $500.00 bow and charging $900.00 for it.
Ties into the same as above. This is the same as arguing or whining about all those new $35+ each broadheads. If you think it's not worth it or can't afford it don't buy it. Some folks want what they want and will pay what they want for it. If a bowyer is out of line with his prices he won't be in business long. Most of the ones I know charging 900+ have been doing it awhile, they must be doing something right.
My best to all of those who had the courage and motivation to take their hobby and love and make it a business.
:thumbsup:
If I were selling $500 bows I would have been done years ago. This is my only income and it is full time 10-14 hours a day, and it isn't all just building bows, it is all about getting things right so we can build bows for 6 to 8 hours a day. And yes I need employees to help keep it all together, believe it or not a good employee doing the same single job day after day get to were they can do it better than I can. I can still do it all (On our bows) and they never will or want to. I use to build custom Homes and believe me you wouldn't want me to do all the work myself, it would take 5 years to get it done. So George I understand I will never be selling you a bow and that is fine. Just don't keep me from making a living doing what I love. I can't get Barb to believe I need a Corvette either( she knows I can't afford it) :)
I have bows made by Bob Morrison, Chad Holm, Gregg Coffey, John Harvard, Bill Howland, Norm Johnson and several others. There is not a single one of their bows that I think is overpriced. I know Chad's bows are only priced the way they are because he is building his business and needs to sell for less than the better established bowyers. I am glad to be able to have these artisans building such incredible bows for the prices the bows sell for. Writing a check for a first class bow is a happy experience for me, because I know I am getting a bargain, even when the bow costs more than $1,500.
Recently, I reluctantly took my family to a rock concert because my kids really wanted to go. I didn't particularly care for the experience, and to make it worse, the evening ended up costing me $500 in tickets alone! If I spend twice that amount and buy a $1000 bow, it will last me a lifetime and give me thousands of hours of enjoyment. I would say that my entertainment dollars are better spent on the bow. Take into account the price of tickets to movies, sports events, plays or most other forms of entertainment, or even the costs of various hunts, and the costs per entertainment hour to shoot an "expensive" custom bow become negligible.
I want to extend a big "THANK YOU" to the custom bowyers out there whom I know (and those I don't) for giving me and other TradGangers a lot of joy for the money we paid for these works of art. I know what good people you are and how hard you work, and I admire each and every one of you. :clapper:
Allan
We should be thankful that we have an abundance of bows to choose from that are not built on an assembly line in some foreign country. I don't know anything about bow building but I assume that cost is based on time and materials. For the most part a bow that costs $900 took longer and/or had more expensive materials and processes than one that costs $500. That does not necessarily make it a higher performing bow (though it might be). I wish bows were less expensive but when I consider what is involved in making one, and how blessed we are to have so many choices of custom bows, I'm alright with the prices. If they lower the prices they go out of business and we all loose. Not good at all.
QuoteOriginally posted by amar911:
I have bows made by Bob Morrison, Chad Holm, Gregg Coffey, John Harvard, Bill Howland, Norm Johnson and several others. There is not a single one of their bows that I think is overpriced. I know Chad's bows are only priced the way they are because he is building his business and needs to sell for less than the better established bowyers. I am glad to be able to have these artisans building such incredible bows for the prices the bows sell for. Writing a check for a first class bow is a happy experience for me, because I know I am getting a bargain, even when the bow costs more than $1,500...
Allan
My sentiments exactly. Well said. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
Prices will level-off or people will eventually go out of business. We have created the monster by giving a sort of royal status to certain brands over the past few years. That made others think they could ask huge amounts for their bows as well. Then Martin sees it is lagging behind by keeping their bows affordable and raise the price on them to custom standards.
Unemployment right now is 7% but that is only those who are listed on National scale...those actively seeking jobs and on those roles. The real figure is closer to 10%. It's going to get even worse. Those of you making great money better keep you senses sharp and mind those finances. This recession is not nearly over and no one is exempt from rough times.
I always I think if Martin priced something like their Howett Hunter for $200 they would have a hard time selling them. I mean how good could just a $200 bow be- when most of the bows out there are $500 plus? Must be junk? Right? I think when lots of people started to get interested in Trad. arch. again-say 15-20yrs. ago, there was a big increase in Custom Bowyers--naturally their prices were alot higher than prod. bows, as they should be. Prob. was that production bows looked too cheap," must be shoddywork "etc. Martin had to raise their price so as not to give the impression they were white elphants. I think the price of Martin prod. Bows is absurd, but I understand why they have to do it to sell them. Now I just make my own bows or buy things like 20yr. Howett hunters for 100-$150,
shoot as well as they ever did. I can't afford the prices of these new bows, and if I could I wouldn't anyway, just like Iam not going to buy $10 cup of coffee. :knothead:
Again, I never meant this question as a slight to custom bowyers.
And for those who don't know, I've had and still own my share of custom & semi-production type bows. My primary bow is a Lee TD Hunter and coming a close second is a Kota Prairie Swift that Tim & I brainstormed one afternoon in his shop. We hand picked the piece of Bocote for the riser & limb veneers and it turned out to truly be a work of art and worth the price I paid him to build it for me. I've had & traded or sold a number of Chek Mates (still have one H2 with a couple sets of limbs) and even a Fedora. Over the years I've also had my share of productions bows to include Wing, Bear, Herter's, and Martin.
All that being said, yesterday UPS delivered a LH 50#@28" 58" Chiron Volcano which cost $252 including shipping and was here 6 days after I ordered it.
Not expecting much, I was about floored when I opened the box and found a gorgeous and beautifully balanced recurve that is nearly as good looking as my Swift, every bit as eye pleasing as my Zebrawood H2, and makes my actionwood & brown glass Lee look like a mud fence.
It wasn't all looks, either. In 20 minutes I had it set up with a basic tune and found it to be smooth, zippy (visually appears faster than the 55#@29" Swift and right in the ball park of the faster 53#@28" Lee and 53#@28" H2), quiet & accurate.
In short, ever bit as good a shooter as the custom/semi-production bows I have that cost better than twice as much; far better shooting, handling, and looking than the last couple considerably more expensive production bows I've owned (a 2007 Bear K-Mag and 10 year old Martin Mamba).
This perfectly illustrates my question & frustration. Why aren't we seeing a bow like this in a comparable price range from an AMERICAN COMPANY?!!!! :mad:
I'm glad you are happy with your foreign bow. The reason I can't build you a 250.00 bow has been explained many times in this thread already. If you haven't figured it out yet then there is no use explaining it to you anymore. Peace to you and yours, Chad
Boy, I hope i don't open a can of worms here but i wonder how people who are griping about the "massive profits" custom bowyers are making work for a union and making 3X as much as their job is worth...funny how no one thinks they are in that category....i have friends in Michigan who worked for the auto industry...Hearing what people got paid in that sector, if it wasn't such a travesty, it would actually be funny.
George posted in regards to a $250 bow: "if a person does buy one of those, I'm sure they know what they are buying and not expecting a $900.00 bow"......if only this were true. I've seen guys handle a $300 bow and compare it to a black widow they had in their other hand. LOL
I'm curious as to what some consider a "production bow". Or even a semi production bow. All bowyers use equipment to make a bow, custom or not. Whether it be an electric sander, band saw, or CNC machine. So I guess we could call all bows "production bows". But let me tell you something. I made a visit to Bob Morrisons house again yesterday and as always enjoyed walking around the shop. I almost hit his Lamborgini going down the drive of his 10,000 sq. ft. mansion drive. Just kidding, Bob has a modest but nice home and his doors are open to all. Anyhow, Bob does have a couple employees that help him out. But as some say it is not a custom bow because someone else has their hands on the bow. But to keep up with the demand and to get bows out within 6-8 months, he has too! And although there are the tools I mentioned above in Bob's shop, guess what I saw. An employee of Bobs with a riser in a vise and working a riser into shape with a hand file. Yes, a hand file. I asked "wouldn't that be easier on a machine"? He said "maybe so, but a machine would not get the fine details that I can do by hand". Enough said.
So before we start bashing bowyers for the price of bows, put yourself in their shoes. I'm happy to say I shoot a Morrison and also don't mind paying the money for one either. And I work in a prison! Not making millions here folks. It's called save up! It's been said before and I'll say it again" buy what you feel you can afford, but don't criticize others for what they do".
My hats off to all bowyers out there for giving me "The Choice" to buy and shoot your products. I appreciate what you all do, regardless of price.
Smile George, it's going to be OK.
Mike
Having been self employed I know exactly, intimately, where the professional bowyers are coming from. It's darn near impossible to not have chip on one's shoulder. And believe it or not customers are usually the root of (my) resentment (I'm not a professional bowyer), whether it's "because" they don't appretiate what goes into the product, the value of the product, don't pay on time, expect extrodinary service, or some other reason.
FWIW, I don't see commenting with a observation like "I can buy a nice bow for $250" (even if it's from Korea) as attacking custom bowyers, or their prices. Or similarly pointing out folks won't necessarily buy the high end all the time, particularly when economics downturns come. Or even when they say something like the hobbyist bowyer down the street makes a really, really nice bow. In short, ignorance (which may be too strong a word) is benign, not necessarily malice or distain. And it is after all the default state for many issues like this. Run of the mill folks simply aren't in touch with the details.
My hat's off to craftsman, farmers, ranchers, school teachers, etc. who are willing to forgo the value of some other occupation to pursue their passion. On the other hand, I'm not compelled to have a whole lot of sympathy for the consequences of that choice either, since I hate like hell to be locked up in an office building all day. I'd much prefer to just do what I like for a living, but my wife and dotter spend more money than I can make doing that so I "have" to sell my time for the most money I can, even if I don't necessarily prefer that. One has to value that freedom some way, and it can be perty darned expensive.
Thank god for America we still can make choice's Custom or mass production, Wal Mart or your local store.
With all due respect and as I've explained several times Chad, my legitimate question is not a slam on guys like you, nor for that matter did I question or even address you directly. To paraphrase you, if you haven't figured that out yet there's no use in my saying it again. BTW, that chip on your shoulder sure is a turn off to a potential customer...
The original bow & company I spoke of is hardly an individual custom bowyer, yet their prices are some of the highest out there. In regard to them, I questioned the wisdom & thought process of raising all ready exhorbitant prices during tough economic times.
Putting snarkiness aside though, I truly am puzzled. The only similarly priced production bow I can think of right off the top of my head is the Bear Grizzly, and it's a 2x4 compared to the Volcano. Have never seen one, but from what I gather CM's 60" one piece recurve is probably pretty close in both quality & price...
I just can't help but think both the bow companies and the bow shooting public would benefit by an attempt to emulate a bow like this at a similar price. They sell more bows and more archers & potential archers get access to a quality affordable bow...
The Quinns are priced in that ballpark and will shoot circles around the Chirons and Samicks. Made in America too.
How many of you complaining about the cost of bows are willing to work for the same hourly wage as bowyers? In addition are you willing to work at their wage rate and give up health insurance, vacation pay, sick days, etc.? How about time and one half or double time for overtime? I'm assuming that you guys also won't complain if your job gets outsourced for cheap labor in another county. The American way...we want it all..high wages on good benefits for ourselves...but all our goods as cheap as possible. Guess what? That means made with ceap foreign labor. Chad, Brandon, Bob, I'm with you. You complainers do what you want. As for me, my bows will be made by American craftsmen.
Sgt. Barnett,
With all due respect, it has been explained to you several times. With between $125 and up to $250 in materials, it is hard to sell a bow of any quality for $250. I agree there are those who are doing it, but I assure you they are not making anywhere near what they are worth. The foreign market is a very different animal than American custom bowyers. Initially, they are buying, or building, material product in massive quantities, building their own composites, utilizing children, elderly, prison labor, national loyalists you get the idea. They are paying little or nothing in assembly cost, and their materials cost are much less due to the mainly state owned factories pumping out glass, foam core material and epoxy with minimal cost to any corporate institution. ACLU don't allow that in the good ol US. Same song, different verse, my father's foundary went bankrupt in the 80's along with thousands of other small, like businesses due to foreign compitition. I use the term compitition loosely. In fact, Dad lost his business to a company in India which undercut his prices on castings. When dad went to talk to the municiple officials he had been serving with water/sewer rings and lids for years, they showed him the cost difference. They were actually selling finished product shipped for what dad was paying for scrap. Welcome to the US.
I recall a recent post here that Bob put out asking if anyone wanted to work in his shop. I am not sure how many returns he got off of that, as well he should. I wish I had the opportunity to work along side a man of Bob Morrison's charactor. Problem? Pay. Not many, if any, who called, PMed, emailed, or actually physically went to Bob's shop inquiring about the coveted position could make it on what Bob was offering. I am sure some were flustered if not outraged at the pay offer. Well, I know for a fact that it wasn't that Bob didn't want to be more generous. I felt he was overly kind. But, those who were ready to sell out and leave their homes, families, dogs to work for Mr. Morrison found out they couldn't make it on what he was able to pay. I, Sgt Barnett have been an employee and an owner. I made more money working for a bow company than owning one.
Liability. Since the 80's Americans have learned that being a professional victim is a pretty dang good job. As a result, insurance has gone through the roof. Seems it is bowyers fault that people choose the string their bows differently than instructed, sometimes backwards, whatever..... Fall on it while climbing a tree, although we and treestand companies make it very clear they should use towstrings in order to have both hands free and the area around the tree free of hazards. They aren't awarded stupid signs by the courts, but thousands in liability for physical therapy and psychotherapy for PTSD suffered form the fall. When I was a kid, I used to get my ass beat for falling out of a tree and hurting myself. Me and dad still laugh about it. Only in America does McD's have to write on a coffee cup, "Contents May Be Hot". In other countries, they don't worry about liability that much. Hurt yourself with a bow you bought, hurt youself with it doing something off the beaten path with it, and you go to jail. Say if a guy buys a bow from an importer and puts his eye out stringing it with the ol push/pull meathod, they go after the American import company, not the foreign manufacturer.
Taxation without representation. The feds require 11% tax off the top of every item manufactued in this field. Wait, there's more. We then pay self-employment tax. The highest tax range the IRS can come up with. Many then pay Uncle State their taxes for the pleasure of living and doing business in that piece of heavan.
Bottom line. Hell, it don't matter, buy the bow you want. Aren't you the same guy that posted a while back a "bowyer's challenge" to build quality short bows for ground blind hunting? Sir, how offensive is that to Bob Lee's Little curve, Kemph's lil Griz, Ron's short Shrew's, I know I'm missing many quality bows that foot that bill. Oh, the Sheepeater.
So, I wouldn't go making comments to Chad about chips on the shoulder, or threats of lost clientel, until you leave your government job with salary, health benefits, 401k, paid vacation, equiptment expense.........yes, I was a cop too, and try to eek out a living as you suggest. Pay $150 in materials only, from fine American companies, and spend 12+ hours hands on crafting a working piece of your soul. Oh, that 12 hours is after you spend years figuring out how to set up your shop, and minimize your time on max efforts. Then sell that puppy for $250. I got the number for Binghams if you would like to get started making good money right away. Besides that, I understand through very reliable sources that Chad is one of the finest men on this forum. So, as a brother archer, and an ex brother of the badge, I ask you to stand down on this one Sgt. You just told a real fine bowyer he wasn't worth his salt.
By the way, Martin's new all boo core longbow is $300 more than mine, and I use clear glass. Oh, and it is short enough to shoot comfortably in a blind.
Have a good one out there in NoDac Sgt. You stay safe and warm out there. I sure appreciate what you do my brother. Cold hard place to be a cop.
Brent
Thanks,britts."A MEN"
I tried to not post here but my hands wont stop typing.
First, I want to thank one of the most unappreciated crafts in the world, the Bow-yer.
Last year I bought 1 ACS CX, 3 Morrison, and 3 Habu's, I sold all but 1, and I'm still in the market for some others.
I rented a Ferrari F1 Spider for the weekend just for kicks once, $1,700 per day, no, I'm not rich, far from it.
But I wanted to do it, how many people have got to drive a Ferrari in there life, not many, by the way, cant wait to do it again or buy one some day, (I went 160 and had 2 more gears left, yee-ha!! the thing cornered like the tiers where mad out of gummy bears, I also let my 16 year old son drive it, experiences of a life time, PRICELESS
Life is way to short to shoot JUNK, I for one expect excellence from my self, why in the world would I not expect excellence from my Bow.
Man, it's a good thing I'm not a Bow-yer, I'd charge $5,000.00 per bow or more, I don't want to build a bow for the average Joe, I want to be like the Ferrari, only a few could afford my product.
You can build your own bow out of a shovel handle for the price of a stick of wood, go for it. if that's what floats your boat.
But please don't compare a model T with a Ferrari
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/customexamples.jpg)
I'm still waiting for BMW to lower the price of their sports car so I can have one too. I think they charge too much such that the average guy can not afford one. Until then I guess I'll have to keep driving my old pickemup truck.
I've had my share of low-priced foreign bows. From the 5 I bought, there is only one which I enjoy shooting. One was impossible to tune, two stacked even worse than a certain American manufacturer's $350.00 long bow, two had hand shock which caused the wrist on the bow arm to hurt 24-7. At $300.00 each, I invested $1500.00 to get one acceptable bow. I sold the ones I didn't like for about $180.00 each. What a bargain...I now own a $300.00 bow for $780.00. Last year I picked up a Pittsley Predator used for $400.00, it's now the bow I use 80% of the time. I think the new price on it would be about $650.00. It is actually a bargain. I don't know if the Predator is now considered "factory made", but it works and that is OK for me.
My prices have remained the same. As a matter of fact I have a economic stimulous sale goin on right now. Take a look at my site.
I believe NDTerminator was refering to an entry level bows from big production companys. I may be wrong, but I don't think he was talking about custom bows. I'm sure if someone was looking for a custom bow, they are willing to pay a reasonable amount for the good crafted work. I think that is a totally different market. Someday I hope to get a custom bow.
I agree times are hard, and someone with a modest income, looking for their first bow at a low price, are seeing a lot of imports as a good choice. Maybe some American company should try to make a lower priced bow to compete if they can.
I work in a large factory--we make above ground swimming pools. We make a low end pool to compete with China-made pools. They are not in the class with our highend pools, nor do we promote them as such. They are for two totally different customer bases.
QuoteAs a matter of fact I have a economic stimulus sale going on right now.
Good one! Ever thought of running for office.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a170/aaaabbbbcccc/rofl.gif)
I love vintage bows, mostly play in the history forum.
1 We are pretty lucky if you ask me, we have 4 or 5 of the best boyers out there (Unless you want a cheap bow)talking to us about "THEIR" business's
2 Not putting any one of them on a pedestal but
Just whats going to be a vintage bow in 20 yrs?? I think your talking to a few of the boyers in this thread.
I happen to like old Bear bows,
but if I liked Brandon's or Chads Or Bobs and could afford it,Cant think of anything funner than to work with a great boyer on a custom bow.
Kurt
Hope everybody finds the deal their looking for
I love custom bows and they are worth every hard earned penny I spend on them. I'm with King on this, we are here for a short time, don't waste a single day shooting junk.
Two years ago, I sold five of the more modestly-priced bows I had acquired in my first decade of trad archery. It wasn't because I didn't like them, it was because medical problems had forced to drop 15# in draw weight. I ended up getting about 80% of the money back that I had spent to purchase them because they were in great shape and bow prices had trended higher.
From the proceeds of the 5 I sold, I bought two bows that had caught my eye and attention... a Morrison Cheyenne and a Sheepeater Obsidian. Did they cost more? Yep! Were they a good value for me? Yes, yes, YES!!
Bob spent a lot of time making the grip on my bow exactly what I needed to work with an old injury from a broken thumb. He was patient, knowledgeable, and built me a special bow that means a lot to me. I shoot it better than anything I've owned, and I've enjoyed using it to take 4 whitetails this season. It fits me, I love the performance, and feel my money was very well spent.
This year, I hope to sell another bow I outgrew "backward" to finance about 1/2 of a Shrew. I'll add my "mad money" budget for the next two years, but I want to try this piece of archery history for myself.
I know I could shoot a bow and have less money involved, but each of these hold a special importance to me, and I'm willing to save up to make the investment.
I'm thankful for these men, and am glad to have the opportunity to enjoy what their talent and experience has created.
Daryl
Quoteyesterday UPS delivered a LH 50#@28" 58" Chiron Volcano which cost $252 including shipping and was here 6 days after I ordered it.
QuoteWhy aren't we seeing a bow like this in a comparable price range from an AMERICAN COMPANY?!!!!
Been answered several times - I for one would never ask a fellow American with the skills and tools needed to build the import you describe for less then minimum wage. JMO.
Steve
Mohawk, Kohannah, Holm-made. :thumbsup:
I guess I'd like to know which company the OP was referring to. I have a strong idea as to which company it is.......
I'm not sure I'd feel any different if I knew who the OP meant.
Change the names and all of the pros/cons are still the same.
Don't want/or afford one brand of bow,no problem, lots to choose from.
Kurt
Look up Herwaybow on the net. Kevin Brown is making some unbelievably great shooters !
why don't one of the custom bowyers build a $5,000 bow? i bet they could sell them. maybe not a lot of em, but some. if you don't believe me just start at the beginning of this post & start reading every one of the responses.
I have seen the amount of work that goes into a custom bow. Most of these bows are worth every penny the bowyer gets.
One factor I have not seen posted here yet is Workmans Comp.
If a bowyer is really good and expands and hires an employee, his cost just went through the roof!!!! The cost of Comp for a company that operates power machines is out of this world.
Another thing to consider-----Do those foreign jobies/production bow companies DONATE any of their blood sweat and tears to any worthwile cause. From what I have seen from the BOWYERS on this forum, they are very generous to a good cause and that speaks volumes. They do not make a whole lot and yet they have big hearts when it comes to "giving to the cause".
Ben
Ben,
Yes there is Workers COmp, and also Social Security any other 6-7% If you have employees.
I think the self employed SS is 13-15% ?
QuoteOriginally posted by Holm-Made:
I'm glad you are happy with your foreign bow. The reason I can't build you a 250.00 bow has been explained many times in this thread already. If you haven't figured it out yet then there is no use explaining it to you anymore. Peace to you and yours, Chad
He is not asking why YOU cant do it.He is asking why big companies like Bear,Martin and others cant do it.I guess there is no use explaining it to you any more either. :wavey:
QuoteOriginally posted by jojotater:
I believe NDTerminator was refering to an entry level bows from big production companys. I may be wrong, but I don't think he was talking about custom bows. I'm sure if someone was looking for a custom bow, they are willing to pay a reasonable amount for the good crafted work. I think that is a totally different market. Someday I hope to get a custom bow.
Pretty close. Never said anything about custom bowyers, to the contrary, I own my share and gave them props. But I wasn't referring specifically to entry level bows.
My point is two fold; first it seems unwise to raise bow prices in the current economic climate and secondly, it seems an ideal time for the American companies to make an attempt to match stuff like Samick/Chiron is making i.e., good quality at a reasonable price...
Just to be clear, the company I was originally citing was Great Plains, hardly an individual custom bowyer building em' by hand one at a time to order...
For example, I'm having a tough time seeing the price now being asked for a Martin Mamba compared to the Chiron Volcano(I use this as an example as I've owned a Mamba and am now wringing out the Volcano). I can advise from first hand experience that both are virtually identical in quality & performance (I give the beauty edge to the Chiron as I always would rather see clear glass used on limbs) yet the Martin is by comparison grossly over-priced, bordering on a custom! Even Martin's "low end" bows like the Rebel and X200 had a price jump and cost far,far more...
To say the can't do it seems to me disingenuous. They certainly can, they just aren't choosing to...
NDTerminator
While Bill Foreman may not fall into your definition of an individual custom Bowyer, his websight states it's him, one other full time employee and 1 part time employee that run the operation. That hardly qualifies as a "mass production" type operation such as Martin or Samick.
I suggest you call Bill Foreman and ask him your questions directly. Any comments you get in this thread are merely opinions.
Go ask the man himself why he raised his price.
I'd be shocked if it was for any reason different than what Bob Morrison or Brandon Stahl provided.
I figured this would happen if I actually named the outfit for those who couldn't guess. Who are you, the outfit's lawyer? ;)
Read back, I didn't ever say "mass production". However, anyone other than the individual bowyer (i.e. employees) making the bows is by definition production,or
semi-production/production made to order, if you prefer, doesn't mattter to me how many involved.
The bow in question can be ordered in one of two wood/material configurations with no options whatsoever other than draw weight. That pretty much defines production to me.
Also, it's my understanding there is at least some automation/computer run machinery involved in their operation. If so that takes them further out of the custom realm....
But enough of this, I'm out on this bit...
I know Bill from trade shows, personal phone calls and sitting around talking about business. This man works his ass off and he doesn't have all the .50 cents and hour help he can get.Other countries have labor and material at a faction of what it takes here in the good old USA. Maybe you better start hoping Samick or Win Win start sponsoring this and other trad sites or there will be none............ If you want $$300 bows that is where they will come from.......... If you want a good custom bow talk with Bill or any other custom bowyer here in the USA that pay his fed excise taxes and has liability insurance, if they don't pay these 2 items they are not ligit business, buyer beware.........
Why would any company, big or small, use up capacity building low cost bows when the time is better spent building the works of art these guys produce? Market not cost determines the price and as long as the demand is there stick with the high end.
You get what you pay for.Most bowyers on this site build with PRIDE and pay very close attention to details like perfect glue lines,fadeout transition,proper tillering,sanding lines,no blemish finish,use of exceptional woods.The bow will not leave the shop unless all these variables are perfect.Do you really think a $300 dallar bow from over seas is of this quality just because it throws an arrow? I don't think so.They deserve to make a living too.
I would love to be a Bowyer but can not afford the cut in pay. After being at Bob Morrisons home I can tell you he is not getting rich. These men spend a lot of time EVERY day taking care of buisness. I don:t think most of them charge enough. Figure out the time and most are proberly making about 10 to 15 bucks an hour. If you can;t afford a new custom there are always used ones for sale.But really why would anyone be so noisey to care about how much they earn. This is America and they are working? If a bowyer made $100,000 a year stands behind is product,gives you what you want and is a good person I say let him make it. Now lets talk about why gas was $4.00 a gallon????
I have been following this for a while, and can't help but chime in.
Alls I will say, is walk into an Archery shop, look at what is "in stock", then look at all the sponsors here at this site, and all the options I have for a truly custom made bow that fit my budget...
I stand up and salute the folks that have a talent I cannot imagine.
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Service is king. I worked for a lighting company that imported products, and if we had a warranty issue... well, there was no warranty... Too Bad So Sad...
I appreciate the bowyers that have chimed in here on this post, and have the utmost respect for you all.
This is a subject that I have tried to stay away from for a long time. I might wish I had but I'll take my lumps. I bristle every time I hear about someones new Korean made bow.Perhaps it's because I make my living in manufacturing and have seen a good deal of our business go over seas.And yes I am one of those guys who belongs to a union but I don't believe you would find our wages to be rediculous.
This is most definately in support of the small truely custom guys out there regardless of the number of people in your shop. When I look at the work that you guys do it amazes me that you can sell them for the prices you do.My hats off to you guys. Most of you are creating functional pieces of art.
This is also in support of what might be called the bow manufacturers out there. I can understand why someone might question the price of these bows being comparable with truly custom bows. I can not understand how anyone could believe that an American company would have a snowballs chance of competing with Korea or other developing nations and offering a quality bow at the same price.Even without considering wages and benefits, state and federal regulations, taxes and insurance have already taken our own people out of the race.At minimum wage, we have already lost.
People who are not close to manufacturing may honestly not realize what a disadvantage the American worker is at.
OK go ahead. This is the point where we chuck a few rocks at the unions. Go ahead. Been there before. I can take it.
In the case of our product, we are competing with wages in China of about 19 cents per hour for lower skilled workers and about $1.00 per hour for the most skilled.I won't even get into quality.
A couple of years ago at a local shoot I spoke to a vender about some caps she had laying on her table. They had a catchy phrase and I was interested.I asked where they were made. She explained to me that the caps were made in South Vietnam and gave several reasons why they were superior to the Chinese models.I left without the cap.
Just my oppinion. If I were in the market for a bow and could not afford a new one I would watch the classifieds right here.There are many fantastic deals to be had.
Not buying American made bows from manufacturing companies may have some affect on there pricing over time. My quess is that they will simply have their products made over seas.
Not buying bows from custom bowyers will most likely end their business. I don't believe their profit margins are out of line to begin with.
You custom guys, keep puttin out those works of art.I want to believe that enough people involved in this sport will continue to demand the beauty and quality that only you can supply.
Atleast as long as we have jobs.
Take care,
Ed
:campfire: :campfire: :campfire:
I build bows for a hobby and when I look at some of the custom bows out there and how much they sell for I just shake my head. The level of craftsmanship that defines the commerical standard today is simply outstanding. Frankly I don't know how a lot of these custom bowyers can make a profit. My hat if off to these guys. What they do is obviously a labor of love - because they sure can't be making a lot of money doing it.
White Oak,good post.Nothing wrong with unions.