OK, here is the scoop.Im thinking of building and all aluminum riser.Here is where the gang comes in.Which riser SXT,EXTREME,STANDARD?Shoot off the shelf or elevated rest?Maybe cut and drilled for an elevated rest, or you can build it up to shoot off the shelf.Drilled for sights or not.ILF or no ILF? Set grip,or interchangable grips?Or just scrap the hole idea.There are alot of choices here, and some I have not mentioned.SO, I thought I would seek the advice of my friends at Trad Gang.This is an oppertunity to esentialy design the handle of our next take down bow.Thanks for your help.
Bill
I think you should build them like your standard riser since it's the most "forward" of the three with standard limb bolts like you use now and then you could offer them for sale to other bowyers to use with limbs of there own design! If it was me, I would make it a simple shoot off the shelf design. Good luck with your new venture, it will be interesting!
Im all for it, since i like metal riser bows. :thumbsup:
Drilled out for plunger rest, and sights/quiver, ect. would cater to more shooting styles in my opinion.
I also like the interchangable grips, but thats just me.
Bill, whichever you choose, try to make it as affordable as you can. I've shot metal riser bows thirty-five years ago, and one of the best was the Grable design. If you could take a look at some of the older designs, you may see something you like.
I would particularly like to see one that was relatively plain with a slightly forward pivot area, like the old Grables/Shakespeare QT, or Carroll's. And, short enough to get a bow in the 56 to 58 inch area as well as up to about 60 or 62, depending on the limb length.
I'm not much for the metal risers and ILF limbs and all that, however from a business standpoint it's like Jason said, if you build them to accept other limbs and with inserts for sights and plungers you're going to cater to a wider market and you can sell your risers to other bowyers as well as your customers. I still think your elk antler riser is one of the prettiest bows I have ever seen.
This is exactly what I was looking for!I knew I would get some answers here.I was thinking of first going with a simple shoot off the shelf set grip riser to see what guys thought.This would also help to keep the price down, as I will have to outsource the CNC work.Then if folks want it.Build something with a bit more bells and whistles.Im still in the planning stages right now,but I have a CNC guy who is interested.But which riser?I was also considering a riser with SXT dimensions but a more forward handle.Sorta like a 14" STANDARD risr. Keep the advice comeing.
Bill
It would be nice to have a riser you could attach bowfishing gear to. Then you could swap limbs off for bowfishing and put them back on your other risers for hunting. I like the Quinn Stallion riser, might be something to look at. As far as your current riser, the Standard is still my favorite, but I need to see the SXT to compare. Again, you need a price breaker to make it take -off, IMHO.
No reason you couldn't build a riser for off the shelf, as well as off the shelf with plunger or elevated rest...risers in the past have done it and there are some that do it now...although that would be an additional feature maybe...doing the grip so it takes Hoyts would be most economical for all and give loads of choices.
Is it going to be ILF...your bows are exceptional, as well as limb performance, etc...I've owned my share, but there may be catch that comes along with aluminum that you can use a wide array of ILF limbs...IMO, a bow that could accept yours, as well as have a kit to be able to mount ILF pockets, would be more versatile than anything going.
My nickels worth as I sit here working...
My choice would be Short 14" riser as "Forward" as you can with the ILF option and a choice of grip heights. You could have options to have plunger hole, stabilizer hole, etc.
love metal risers. i woud hav eto say a 14" forward riser also! shooting off the shelf would be great with the option of a berger hole. keep us updated.
If you build an aluminum riser that accepts ILF limbs, then you're selling into a market that's already well-served by Samick, Win & Win, Hoyt, etcetera. I don't see how you compete with them by offering a me-too product. There are already plenty of aluminum risers out there! Just check out the Lancaster Archery Supply catalog.
IMO, your big challenge is to design a riser that appeals to someone who publicly disavows the current high-tech looking, Olympic/ILF equipment (probably most trad archers), but would secretly love to have the performance advantage the Olympic/ILF archers enjoy. Perhaps a riser with an aluminum skeleton and a bocote/cobobolo/pick-your-pretty-wood skin?
Even a thin sheet of steel burried inside the middle of the riser wood lay-up would really stiffen up the riser. If it was 0.030" thick and stainless so it wouldn't rust, you'd never even notice it was there. Seems like that would be a simpler/cheaper way to go than CNC machining an aluminum structure. (Of course you'd have to pickle the steel before layup to get good adhesion to the wood.)
Bill, here's two photos of two of my old favorites; a herter's and a Phil Grable Shakespeare QT. They can be made for off the shelf or elevated rests/buttons, etc. On both the arrow shelf is fairly close to the hand for off the shelf or elevated possibilities.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/11180003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/11180005.jpg)
Thanks folks!I realy do appreciate all the info.Thanks for the pictures George.Anyone else have any input.
Bill
I LOVE THE 14 inch ILF, I'll be holding off on another Titan if that is in the works!
Bill
I want one in the standard riser with a titanium arrow inlay with gold trimmings(LOL)
In a serious note, I think that would be a great idea. I'm a fan of your standard riser.
Great eating dinner with you and Tracy in Indianapolis. I had a great time! Be careful with those new toys from the ata show.......their sharp(LOL)
Bill - will it be cnc or cast riser.
I shoot metal riser most of the time. Bob Gordon (Warf riser) makes an ilf riser out of old Black Bear compound risers, Hoyt Sepctra riser and several others. these of course are 20.5" risers. He has sorked it out so you can shoot it off the shelf or from a elevated rest. the advantage of the ifl system on the Warf risers is that the archer can control the tiller. as I am a stringwalking bowhunter i can fine tune the tiller for the tradtional bowhunting range and get the most out of the bow.
before I found the Warf risers I was shooting the Sky Supreme hunter. It was a cast riser that was a copy of the Hoyt Sprectra compound riser. it had proprietary limb attachment system.
I think the best of the best is a like the DAS. the limbs come from the ilf world but David Sousa improved the attachment system by relaceing the limb ilf fixture.
I have got an old Hoyt Pro Medalist T/D 16" riser that makes a 58" bow. such a dandy bow. 44# on my fingers. will flat shot an arrow where you are looking (still with no carbon, no nano tech). :)
http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/hoyttd
rusty
This riser will be cnc from a solid piece of high quality aluminum. The same aluminum as a compound riser is made of (6061? 6120?) I do not recall the number fo it right now.It is looking like I may need to offer 2 risers a 14" and a 16".The same as we offer now as our wood risers.It seems that most would prefer a riser based on my standard riser with interchangable grips.A riser that can be shot off of the shelf with a burger button or elevated rest,as the basic riser.Also have options to drill for sights, stabalizers,and ILF or modified ILF attachment systems.I have options for dipping the risers, black, camo, there are even some simulated wood grain patterns, and others.
Any thoughts welcome!
Bill
I am a real fan of sight attachment holes, stab boss and plunger holes. My favorite rest is the springy rest. I hunt with it most of the time.
The thing I miss most about the wooden risers today is the lack of a stabilizer boss. nothing makes ANY bow smoother than a doniker stablizer. if ya have a bum bow shoulder the doniker is the best friend ya got as it soaks up a lot of the bow movement.
this is a kit I use for hunting Texas pigs at night (legal in Texas). Hwaglite is great assset and the SRF sights makes picking up the target in low light much quicker. It also help ya make sure your bow is veritcle in the dark.
http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/nxxpert-manes
I am for as much adaptibily as I can get out of a riser. :)
keep us posted. I'll buy a 14" from ya.
rusty
Bill,any bow you would make would be awesome, you are a craftsmen and artist. I would think the ext riser would be the best IMHO, able to shoot off the shelf or elevated rest and drilled for stabilizer and quiver bushing. can't wait to see it. Chris
I would consider a 14" and 16" as you sugested. I would also like to see a a forward riser SXT size wood riser!
Brant
I would like one similar to the Quinn and cast, to keep expenses down. You get into CNC you get into bows the average person will not buy....too expensive. At least have alternatives for those of us who aren't blessed with a lot of liquid assets. You can buy two Quinn bows for one Tradtech or DAS. Did I mention, keep them affordable to the masses.
Boy, I don't know if I like this idea...
Ever since I started shooting a bow, I would see a Zipper and marvel at the beauty. I'd hate to see one of the most beautiful pieces of natural art we have replaced by a cold, ugly piece of metal :confused: .
Bill
I'd be open to it. For me a std riser that could be shot off the shelf. I'm not into ILF stuff so std limb attachment would work for me.
Camo dipped or Green anodize for hunting.
Maybe some threaded holes for quiver attachment.
Good Luck!!!!
Steve, Thanks for bringing this up.I should have made this clear in the beginning.I would sooner cut off my right arm than do away with the wood riser Zipper.I LOVE WOOD!!I LOVE BUILDING BEAUTIFUL BOWS!!This will be an addition to the line,Not a replacement of.
No worries George.This was origionaly a way to get a less expensive hi performance bow into the hands of the guy or gal that would otherwise never be introduced to Zipper Bows. I have found a company that can dip these aluminum risers in wood grain patterns, even a burl dip.So they can still be a pretty bow.
Bill
I would really like a camo one for hunting
I have two Black Swan bows and I perfer the metal riser. I find the throat to be narrower which I really like. I would really like to see a metal riser with some type of wood finish, just because wood is so much easier on the eyes.
I think a metal riser is a good idea, and you can bet I'll be keeping an eye out for a release date if you decide to go this route.
Have you given any thought to what will be offered as far as a high, medium or low wrist ?
Peak 98 IF we go with the interchagable grip,the answer would be yes high,med,and low wrist.I have a contact for the grips,but I do not have any of that worked out for sure yet.
If you are bringing it out anyway, might as well have the holes for a plunger, stab., sights drilled in it. It may turn out that not many use them but it would be a shame to loose a sale to another bow which did. Just because they are on the bows doesn't mean you HAVE to use them.
I think it would be a big mistake to make a metal riser that is not ILF compatable. With the wide variety of limbs available now from the entry level $99.00 limbs up to the carbon foam I think the bow would have to accept ILF limbs in order to be competitive.
That was an interesting thought posted above. If possible allow it to accept ILF limbs but with the addition of a plate or other attachment, allow the use of your current wood limbs.
Bill
I love your standard riser Bill. Only suggestion I'd make is to radius the shelf just a bit more, for those who like to shoot off the shelf. Dave Sosa did a great job of this with the DAS.
I am greatful that we have top-shelf bowyers willing to bring quality and affordable new products!
Bill,
I can't really add anything to this discussion as I've never shot an aluminum type riser nor have I messed with plungers and stuff like that.
Having said all that I love seeing you post here at Trad Gang. With the new SXT riser, the foam limb cores, and now this I think you are doing a great job of staying on the cutting edge. Trying new things is how you develop something really great.
Keep up the good work,
Chris
Thanks Chris,we are trying to keep moveing forward, and in the right direction with things.I have several other ideas,but it all takes time.By the way I have been playing with some carbon backed limbs.They are pretty sweet.Just something more to play with.
I'm with George, some of the older risers were really nice, particularly the old Carrol risers.Short to make down to a 56" bow . Camo dipped by Sispey with your Antique looking Maple limbs would be an attractive looking rig . I'll take one !
I wish the old bear magnesium take downs could take ILF limbs. A and B riser lengths.
Off the shelf and elevated rests would be a plus.
Hoyt grip(s) compatable.
Wood grain insets to pretty up the riser cut outs.
The APA wheelie bows have a carbide sharpener and broadhead wrench built in, which has not been done on a trad bow yet to my knowledge.
It wont hurt for stabilizer, sight and side mount bow quiver threaded mounting holes.
while it certinaly enjoy the warmth and beauty of wood, the functionality of a bow is most important thing to me.
I don't find all metal handle bows ugly at all. I find this one quite handsone infact. all the functionality you could every want is there. shotting off the shelf, elevated rest. bottom heavey riser for proper balanace. enough sight window for sights. adjustable tiller for stringwalkers and three under shooters/
http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/Home/bluedog
btw that is a one of a kind bow. not another blue one in existance :)
rusty
Interchangeable grips is a must. Do the sight window so it can be shot off the shelf but also have it drilled and tapped for AMO sights, plungers and stabilizer bushings. The stabilizer bushing has many uses, bowfishing rigs being one of them. Some of the old metal risers actually had tapped holes in the sight window so the archer could screw in a threaded sight pin. If you really want bells and whistles you could make a moveable/adjustable side plate so one could change the amount of centershot. I've shot metal risers for 40 years or more and these are things that I would incorporate into one if I was to make one. Get an old Bear Magnesium riser and check out all the features he built into the riser. They had everything you could want as I recall.
This is great! I'd recommend making it ILF compatible, so your limbs, Morrison's, DAS', TradTech, Hoyt's, etc, etc. would be interchangeable.
I have been shooting the Dorado riser for over a year now, can't get the same degree of accuracy with bows off the shelf as I can with flipper rest and Berger button. I do like the idea of two heights for the berger button for off the shelf or elevated rest.
I see that your standard risers are either nuetral or reflexed, I would like to see a slightly reflexed riser done in metal, but that may limit your market. Reflex is definetely more sensitive to shoot well but will definetly be quicker.
I have built my own wood risers for ILF limbs but use the Dorado (GM) style attachment for the limbs. I have also converted a Hoyt Defiant riser using a 10/32 allen cap screw turned to the correct diameter to fit the Dorado/GM limb bushing. Simply tap a 10/32 in the limb mounting pocket for the limb locator and tighten. In place of the standard 5/16-18 tapered allen bolt I substituted a 5/16-18 X 3/8 machinist shoulder bolt allowing me to use the standard riser dowel and accomodate the 3/8" size of ILF limbs. Much simpler than dealing with the dovetail fitting.
If you were to use the above mentioned system and match the limb attachment angle needed for ILF limbs and aviod the center-to-center point for your own limbs you could have have the best of both worlds. Simply offer the limb locator pin as an accessory.
If this sparks some interest in you, PM me.
oooh, everybody has thier on ideas of best riser but i'd have to pass on a reflexed riser. hitting the exact spot I am aiming at trumps a couple of extra fps for me anyday. deflex in a riser is the bowhunters best friend IMO
rusty
Lots of good input here. Here's mine for what it's worth. There are plenty of ILF options out there. Morrison, Tratech, TAC, DAS, Hoyt etc. If you can't find what you want amoung them your aren't looking hard enough. Also, if you go the ILF route you are almost totally removing yourself from the building process. You will be outsourcing the riser and the limbs? Is it really a Zipper then?
Don't get me wrong. I love the current crop of ILF bows. I've owned a DAS and currently shoot a TAC Firefly. I also have a Warf and a Quinn and have owned a Gamemaster and several other Warfs.
If you go that route you will be in good company as they are all excellent bows.
Personally, I think you should develop a deflexed riser that accepts your own limbs. Design the riser so that it is forgiving and comfortable to shoot. Different grip options are a must. (designing the riser so that it could be shot with no grip, just a simple wrap would also be nice.) Design your limbs to fit the riser. Come up with the proper balance of speed and forgiveness as well as shootability and you will have a real winner.
Design it so that the bare bones bow will compete with the Quinn for price and performance. Have options available to allow some customization. Fancy veneers, dips, fancy grips, wood/glass limbs, carbon/foam limbs. All options that can be added by the customer based on his desires and wallet. AMO sight holes, stabilizer bushings and plunger bushing holes should all be included in the standard riser.Just make sure the shelf is contoured for shooting off the shelf.
You could build some adjustability into the limbs if you wanted to to allow folks to have a bit of weight and tiller adjustment but I don't think is an essential option.
Make it a metal riser Zipper, not a generic plug and play. Just make it affordable.
I suggest predrilling for whatever accessories someone may want to use. Stabilizer tap, plunger, and sight pins/bow quiver taps. An aluminum riser will not appeal to many hardcore traditionalists so don't design the handle to appease that crowd who isn't going to buy anyway... design it for the guys that are receptive.
As long as it is tapped for a Kwikee Kwiver bracket, it'll be a hit with me. :D
If you are going ILF you need something different than what is on the market now.I would love to see a sleek, slim ILF riser designed more for the ILF longbow limbs that I think will become the hottest new thing.LAS and Morrison now have top end ILF longbow limbs and I have read that Border has something in the works.Something like a cross between an A&H and Black Swan but with some deflex.
I would be cautious about very short ILF risers.You could get into a situation of a long draw guy that wants a very short bow creating a dangerous situation.
The other route would be just a plane jane Aluminum that accepts your limbs or even an economy version of them.Just a bang around hunting bow that performs like an expensive one.
Thanks guys for all your input!After I get things worked out with the cnc guy will let you know which way I plan to go.
Bill
Yeah enough talk, start scraping some metal already. :goldtooth:
I look forward to seeing what you come up with Bill.
I used to think I would never shoot metal, but all that changed since i reviewed the Titan. I now have 5 metal riser bows .
What I would like to see in a metal riser is
Dual plunger holes for off the shelf and elevated rest.
A crowned shelf.
ILF , there are to many good limbs available in every price range. Many of us have several sets of very good quality limbs now and another riser to mount them on is a nice option, rather than getting a complete bow. You would be hard pressed to make limbs that equal the top ILF limbs available today for the price they sell for. You can easily compete in the pretty limb catagory though quite easily and there is a market for good performing eye candy.
The shooter will decide if he wants world class , cheap or eye candy.
Make it short in several lengths .14, 16, and 18"
Removable/exchangable grips like the LAS Titan uses. These are affordable and come in high med and low . Nobody wants to spend 2 to 3 times as much for a grip than they need to.
Offer a leather grip wrap for cold weather.
Make it primarily shooter friendly .Acuracy out trumps speed. Nobody wants a stable ILF limb on a twitchy riser.
Keep the weight down .Every ounce hurts on long hikes.Hunting bows do not need the heavy weight of a FITA bow.
Balance the riser so stabilizers, weights are not needed.
A smooth radius on all edges makes for a clean looking riser.
Lateral limb adjustment dovetails like the Spigarelli/ LAS Titan use.
Pete
If I were a bowyer....bowmaker..or whatever you call a person that makes bows, I would be working on ILF limbs 1st. Many people are "brand" loyal and want to try ILF but their guy doesn't make them. Zipper limbs on any ILF riser!
Bill,
What you really need is someone to field test them for you. Feel free to put my name at the top of the list!LOL :biglaugh:
Been a while Chad where you been?
Glad to see you around again Chad!You know when I get this worked out you will get the call.
Bill