G'day, and my apologies for a vague topic and question...
In the dusty recesses of the back of my mind, I recall reading something interesting in the way of someone's findings or research into spine requirements for heavy bows. I may be quite wrong in my recollection, and I probably didn't understand it right anyway, but it might've been something to do with a broader range of spines being suitable in terms of wooden arrows the heavier bows get in draw weight.
Again, my apologies if I'm mixed-up, but I just thought I read something along those lines somewhere, and was wondering if anyone knew more of what I'm trying to remember.
Thanks,
Ben
TTT...
Anyone?
Don't remember hearing / reading that but do remember some saying wood is more forgiving around it's spine range (unless I was reading it wrong too)
Don't know about heavy bows??
Hello Ben , after reading Dr. Asby"s reports on broadhead penetration and arrows I thought that carbon arrow were stronger or at least that was what I understood it to mean . So I switched to carbons and weighted them down with insert weights and tubes and made a poor hit on a hunt and the arrow broke behind the insert . Returning from the hunt I find his latest report saying that he felt solid wood arrows had a better chance to withstand impact whereas a few of the carbon arrows failed behind the insert . At least that was what I got out of it , so now I'm back to wooden arrows even though it is tough finding consistentcy in weights and spine . I guess what I'm saying is I think wood is better for big game . Good luck , Fred
Greyfox,What kind of wood do you use?I too believe a good heavy wood shaft is top of the line but Cedars are not durable or heavy enough for me.I have thought about trying the lam shafts in three Rivers but have yet to do it.RC
I might add that the shafts I liked the most were "Chundoo" I think they were called from Wildcat Canyon Archery.Don`t know if they are still making arrows are not.RC
RC , I have bought a lot of shafts over the years , I tried ash but couldn't find one that didn't corkscrew . I had some Chundoo shafts that were heavy and almost indestructible . Can't remember where I got them , I have an assortment of shafts that I don't know what they are or where from but I made up a dozen of nice ones that may be chundoo or spruce and they weigh around 750 grains without the broadhead . I have high hopes for these , Fred
WOW... 750g for a pine shaft?, were they soaked in Watco oil like some folks are doing? Thats what my ash arrows weigh. Ted Fry at Raptor hooked me up with some great ash and hickory tapered shafts. Got'em good and straight then dipped them and they've been straight since.
For a Super Duty carbon I think they would need to be footed with aluminum.
I think Twigg Archery still sell some Chundoo.
Eric
Amen to the Goodness of Woodness!
I'm referring to something I read that suggested a really heavy bow could tolerate a wider range of spines... But, as I've said, I might well be remembering wrong.
Ben, if the bow is cut past center yes they will. I have heard of Black Widow bows of 70 to 75 pounds draw weight being able to shoot upwards of 110-120 lb spined arrows with no ill affects on flight. Not sure if that is what you meant. Flint
I've hunted some w/Forgewoods, both the old ones by Sweetland and the ones that were made here in AK. They were great for penetration, but I gave up so much in range that I stopped using them. Even so, I know they resulted in an elk and kudu that I probably wouldn't have gotten without them.
The trick for carbons is to use a brass or steel insert up front and a good steel broadhead. Then you won't have that breaking problem.
LKH I had the brass inserts and brass weights that are screwed onto the inside of shaft to the insert and 190 gr. Grizzlies , granted better shot placement and I would be telling a different story , Fred
Fred, I have a Forgewood that hit the front leg on an elk. Blew half out of the broadhead, splintered it back about 18", and bent the Zwickey into a "U". I don't think anything works when you hit those big tough bones. Have used carbons for years now and never broke one, but I keep them about 560 max.
You planning on killing elephants with those arrows? They should end up around 900 grains.
Ben:
If what Flint said is what you mean, maybe I can clarify the situation. Bows cut past center like the Widow, etc. once the minimum usable spine is reached you can go way over spine with excellent results. I have one client shooting some really heavy arrows that spine 130#@28" from a bow that is 74#@26" his draw they fly like the proverbial dart.
Why? A bow that is 3/16" past center will put the center of 11/32" shaft in the center of the limb. That arrow needs to be stiff enough to go through as little paradox as possible.
Bob
N/Ben, that article/idea your talking about rings a bell....just can't put my finger/hands on it. Maybe an early Asbell article ? I'll dig around and have a look for you. Cheers Ben
I got this e-mail from Doug Knight at http://www.surewoodshafts.com :
"Understanding spine, especially at the upper end of the scale can be a bit of a challange. As you probably know, spine is determined by hanging a 2 lb weight from the center of the shaft while it is being supported 26" apart (for wood; carbon and aluminium use 28"). With this weight hanging from it and bending the shaft, a measurement (in .000"
inch) is taken to see just how much it is bending, otherwise known as deflection. Once the "deflection" value has been acquried the simple math formula of [spine=26"(support)/deflection] calculates it into spine as we know it. ie, a 100 lb spine shaft deflects .26" of an inch with the weight hanging on it. Take a 110 lb shaft and it deflects .24" of an inch, or a difference of .020" for a 10 lb spread. At the lighter end of the scale, ie 20 lb spine has 1.3" deflection while 30 lb spine has .87" deflection or a difference of .43". Both represent a 10 lb spread but the difference of .43" vs .020" is quite a difference.
This simply tells us that spine is not linear. Do the math for each 5 lb spine group and plot them on a graph, then draw a line connecting all the plotted points. You don't end up with a straight line but rather a nice arching curve or parabola with the deflection steadily DECREASING (at some exponetial rate) while the spine steadily INCREASES. Around the 90 lb rate the curve tightens up and heads towards infinity as we continue trying to add more and more poundages of spine into a finite space as the deflection nears zero.
Recall our 20 lb shaft has 1.3" of deflection and our 100 lb shaft is .26". Now think of the fact we only have that .26" left on our scale (till it reaches 0")to crowd all spine poundages clear to infinity. Thus it becomes clear the higher spine (or less deflection) we have in our arrow shaft the closer we approach infinity as to poundage of bow it can be used with. In theory an arrow of 0" deflection could be shot from a bow of infinate poundage, in fact it could be shot from a gun, a cannon or any other means approaching the speed of light(disregarding the fact of course that it would burst into flames and burn up once it reached kindeling temperature due to friction).
As humans we have limitations as to how heavy a bow can be drawn and have devised this method of calculating spine to suit our needs within that range. We have also developed the formulas of adding or subtracting 5 lbs here 5 lbs there for bow types, head weights, string materials etc. etc.
This method of adding and subtracting is linear. It is a great tool, but recall spine is not. Thus it is most applicable and benificial to those in the (average) 45-60 lb bow weight ranges it was developed by and created for. The more we move out of this average upwards towards infinity of bow weight the less rate of effect these issues come into play."
That's what I was trying to recall.
Thanks, Doug! :thumbsup:
Ben:
Your argument is sound and correct, but what is the point!! The spine standard works for the bow weights being used, (Yes some adjustments need to be made when things vary from Grandpa's calculations) but why try to make it something that isn't worth worrying about.
One of the things I have problems with is, those that try to take a primitive activite and make rocket science of it. Life is too short enjoy it.
Bob
Amen, brother Bob. Amen.
It's absolutely pointless information for most archers, agreed. I wholeheartedly agree with keeping it simple.
I was just thinking out loud when I asked the question, just trying to wrap my head around arrow choices and changes for my particular situation, the 80# @ 28" Silvertip drawn to nearly 29". It just gives me a little direction when thinking about finding a stiff-enough arrow to wear the new and heavier STOS broadheads due out later this year.
It was more for my own thinking and education, as I've only been involved with traditional bowhunting for just over 4.5 years, and still have much learning ahead of me.
LKH I plan on using them on an upcoming Buff hunt in Ben's neck of the woods . And Ben I was wondering where in the Northern Territory you're located ? I was fortunate enough to win the St. Jude's Buff Hunt with Mick and was wondering if I would be anywhere near you ? Fred
G'day Fred, I'm at Katherine, which, if you arrive in Darwin and drive out to Mick's happy hunting ground, is on the way. If so, please drop in for a cuppa!
As many of you know, I am ultra non-technical in this regard. If the shaft flies right, I shoot it. With that in mind, I can say the following based on nothing but experience. 1. I have never encountered a reason to shoot anything but wood.2. Wood performs well from heavy bows and at heavy shaft weights. 3. One of the few wood shaft materials I could never get to fly right was Forgewood. 4. If you are looking to add weight for big game with wood, hickory works well for the medium range and ipe can't be beat for the real heavy stuff (shafts over 1000 gr). Cheers, Don
Don, just as a reference point, could you please tell me your draw weight and length, the point weight, the arrow length from valley of nock to back of point, and the spine of the Ipe you used on your buffalo? I really enjoy watching that shot on the Point Blank film! Thanks, Ben
i recently got some laminated birch shafts from 3 rivers. stained n sealed no fletch 698 grains w 135 head. wide range of weight n spine to choose from straighten fairly easy and shoot great. bare shaft test only so far but fly like darts. hope this helps fair priced too. good luck!
Ben I would like that , I will e-mail you when time gets near , as I'm not sure about arrival dates yet . My hunt is in June , thanks , Fred
I think Doug Knight has answered Ben's question very well , if one bothers to read it.
It's not rocket science, it's carrying the simple math of dividing 26" by deflection [or bow weight] through the full ranges, from light weight bows to the heavy weights.
So, just to sum-up this little mental exercise for those like me who are silly enough to shoot heavy gear:
Once you actually find wooden arrows that are quite stiff (say, over 100# using the old system), they will likely work reasonablly well out of a range of heavy bows or using a range of different weight broadheads. Of course, it'll still pay to play around, but you're well and truly in the ball-park, I think.
Thanks Doug and Tim (Old York sent me an excellent diagram explaining this). Perhaps someone else will be in my situation someday, and this thread might help them.
ben, back when i shot heavy bows ( 70lb and over) i used to find that even with alloys i had to go way over spine to get good accurate flight with heavy broadheads. Don't know why, but the proof was in the 'pudding' so to speak.Can't imagine its that different with woodies. I don't for a minute believe that you were trying to turn this into rocket science, just asking a legitimate question that would be of interest to anyone hunting thick skinned game with appropriate heavy tackle or simply wanting to have a crack at shootin' woodies from a heavy poundage bow. Now go and get me a 'buff and tell me your findings!!! Ben
Fred, 750gr without heads, I would bet they are either Alaskan Forgewoods or Sweetlands.
Dr Don, wow, could not get forgewoods to fly right??? If I shoot wood it is Forgewoods and I have perfect flight from my 60-65# recurves. The only time I have personally seen forgewoods not fly correctly is if they were trimmed to length from the point end, they have to be trimmed from the nock end cause they were tapered in density, ie the point end was denser than the nock end.
Danny
All good stuff guys..What might be driving some of the thinking is a plus or minus 5# for a 50# bow is the same percentage as plus or minus 10# with a 100#..
Doc Ashby has told me hickory has been the toughest wood arrow, beating carbon. But.... footed carbons have been very close in toughness with the brass inserts being the weakest link. Internal footing, not external. The problem with wood is you can't get the needed EFOC and that is as big a factor as the weight itself. IOW, an EFOC at 650-700 grains will out penetrate a 900-1000 "normal" FOC by a lot from the same bow...The best hickory's he's found were tapered and that's no doubt the FOC factor.....O.L.
Oh crap...O.L., now you have a whole bunch of people scratching their heads after they loaded up all of those 900 grain arrows; "OH NO! IT'S FOC WEIGHT...NOT TOTAL WEIGHT!" I can see them now trying to get the tips off and pulling all that line out of their carbon tubes.
:saywhat:
Ben, get yourself some Grizzly Stick Alaskan or Safari shafts and never worry again! Load em up front with anything that turns your crank and let the buffalo come.
Hunt it, you got it! :) They stiff need to be footed inside. Hopefully soon with the Doc's permission I'll do a photo "how to" on footing carbons with high to extreamly high FOC's.
I've been able to get high FOC's in wood arrows and durablity by using a 12-14" 4 point footing up front with a heavy/strong wood like hickory. Cocobolo seems to work well also if the grain is straight. The 4 point footing needs to be staggered, 2 of the foots (feet?) stopping about 3-4" from the other two so there is no sudden weak point where the footing ends. Back half a tapered light wood like POC, spruce, and I haven't tried it but silverwood should be good for that. I drill a 1/8" hole 1.5"-2" deep on the front end then taper for points as normal. In that hole I can now put brass, steel, or even tungsten and add from a few grains to almost 100 for aditional fine tuning adjustment. I do that with super glue and if I want to change from say brass to steel, I just touch a soldering iron to the brass, it turns the super glue to gas and if done right will literally "spit out" the brass so I can put steel or what ever in there. Doing this a fellow can come up with 700-900 grian arrows with FOC's above 20% that are tough as nails. I've only done this on a few as it's a PIA compared to carbons but it works well....O.L.
Danny I don't think they are forgewoods but could be wrong , I fletched them with left wing natural feathers ,2 nat. and one orange barred , I had read that the 190 gr. Grizzlies may be available in left bevel but I don't think that will happen . Now I have to find a heavy glue-on head , I like the ones at Alaskan Bowhunters Supply but think they only come in screw-ons . That said they are around 300 grains which would give me a finished weight over 1000 grains . That's heavy . Fred
I do have some Grizzlystiks loaded and ready to go.
The thing is, the magic of wood has got hold of me, so I'm trying where possible to use that material.
Thanks for the input, fellows!
Fred, lots of new single bevel heads out. ABowyer has some new glue ons in heavy weight and left bevel. Check the A&H site. To see if they are the compressed forgewoods, take your thumb nail and try and make a dent in the shaft by running the edge of your nail across the shaft, if it leaves a dent it is not forgewood, if no dent then more than likely they are forgewoods.
Danny
Danny , No dent , I do have stain and sealer with 2 coats of poly on them though . Just don't remember buying forgewoods other than I have a dozen Battleshafts that are a little short for me . I will check out the Abowyer heads , thanks , Fred
And Ben I was set on the Grizzlies until I found out that they probably won't be making a left bevel , thanks , Fred
Ben,
Put a couple woodies in your quiver to make you feel better. Pull out the Grizzly's when $hit gets deep and no trees in sight! It's a mental state - mind over matter - carbons the way to go for me. Wood is romantic and there is nothin romantic about the tip of a buffs horn you know where. :goldtooth:
O.L. I've been playing with footings and the internal metal footings in the point of woodies for a while also. As you no doubt know, the 100 grains or so of metal rod in the front does a lot more to increase the foc than a hardwood footing. The hardwood footing replaces wood that was already there so it's only the difference in the weight of the woods, not the weight of the actual hardwood footing, that is added toward the front of the arrow. That may be as little as 20 to 50 grains depending on the woods used, and its spread out over 8-12 inches.
The internal metal rod has a much greater impact due to its heavier weight and placement at the point/front of the shaft. It also seems to strengthen the area immediately behind the head, since the metal rod normally extends back into the shaft another inch or two. Maybe all it does is move the weak/susceptible point back that distance, but so far the arrows I've tested have held up pretty well. Bounced back at me when I shot them into a solid oak, broke the shaft mid shaft on a glancing shot. Need more testing, of course.
Orion, "As you no doubt know, the 100 grains or so of metal rod in the front does a lot more to increase the foc than a hardwood footing."
Yep, the footing is for durablity behind the head more so then FOC.
"It also seems to strengthen the area immediately behind the head, since the metal rod normally extends back into the shaft another inch or two."
I'm sure it does but it's probably a moot point since hickory doesn't tend to fail there even without the metal insert. I do it just for FOC.
"I shot them into a solid oak, broke the shaft mid shaft on a glancing shot."
Yep, those glancing shots are a bugger as 99% of bone hits would be. That's the reason for the staggered footing points. If all 4 end at the same place, that's a weak spot. We need our arrows "tillered" like bow limbs or fishing rods! :) ....O.L.
Ben, YOU are the camel slayer, not any of us. WE should be asking YOU what to use on our little mooses and deer not the other way around!
Keep using wood, errr, I mean "timbers" regardless of weight and no worries mate!
G'day Steve... I'm blushing now, mate!
I imagine moose and camel to be roughly the same size; they are both majestic and immense (from what I've seen of moose in the films and magazines) creatures.
I just can't help but be more and more drawn to timber as arrow shaft material. It is wonderful stuff!
Cheers,
Ben
The new Woody Weights now make point loading a wood arrow for EFOC possible. Of course this requires a spine increase but you can pack 300+ grains up front quite easily.
Since they are steel there should not be a strength issue, but I'm not sure how the extra glue joint arrangement would hold up on truly big game.
I have a few purpleheart shafts that Luke "The Ursus" Woodruff ran thru his shaftshooter (one made into an arrow) that spine fairly hi and must weigh 800 grains per shaft. Hope to shoot the one I have into a snow bank soon for a trial shot.