Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: 1Cycopath on January 08, 2009, 08:52:00 PM
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Only started shooting again a few months ago after being away for almost 20 years. Got my groups under 10 inches at 20 yds with the occational flyer. Not fantastic but good enough that I felt I had a high probability of a clean kill from my tree stands. I have 3/4 of a year to tighten up that group before next season. Should I be holding myself to a specific group size to dictate my hunting range? What size is everyone comfortable with?
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I would say yes you should hold yourself to a specific group size. If I am in the vital area 4 out of 5 times I feel very comfortable, also I try to take no shots over 20 yrds. Shoot out to whatever yardage you are confident at though
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Shot this one the other night. 25 yds in my basement.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o232/Ottodude/IMG_1152.jpg)
No, I don't always shoot like this...... :banghead:
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It seems the rule of thumb for most trad shooters is the size of a pie plate. Say around a 7" group. At whatever distance you can hold your group to the size of a pie plate, this would be your range.
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thats a BIG basement :)
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barn door. :o LOL.
i'm as good as otto but at about 5m.
with good concentration i can group a saucer with the occasional "otto" group + fliers out to 15m, which is my max so far.
great shooting otto, bet that group felt goooood!
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Very nice group Otto. What kind of house has a 25 yd basement? I'm jealous of both.
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With my Morrison ILF riser I can consistently put 5 arrows into a baseball sized group at 20 yards. I've only had one other bow I shot that well with and it was a 62" RER takedown recurve. I've got another RER but I'd have to put the Morrison down for a while to see if I can match it, and putting the Morrison down ain't easy.
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I kinda hate to say this but It's been on my mind for a while now. I won a bunch of big 3D shoots this past summer and can stand out behind my barn or in my garage and bust nocks off my arrows. Ive also had a pretty good hunting season, one(my first trad) bear, 2 does, and 3 pigs. Even though I got all these animals I was not very satisfied with my shooting. All but two of the shots were about 4 inches left of where I was looking. I think I hurried the shots and did'nt get to full draw.( I shoot right handed). I think shooting a tight group is great, but what Ive been doing latley is this. When I get ready to leave for work in the morning I shoot one arrow at my target(15yds). I leave it. when I get home I shoot another. and so on. ONE COLD SHOT TWICE A DAY.It's alot differant than shooting 50 shots in a row and then shooting a group. I may be headed in the wrong direction, but I think not. Don
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I agree with batman. Its the first shot that counts. Nothing wrong with shooting alot though. Its to much fun. I know a few great hunters who only shoot 3 arrows per day. I think stumpin helps alot if you ground hunt and if one hunts out of a tree stand it is better to practice out of a elevated platform some. I think repetitive shooting burns the mechanics into ones brain. As soon as my groups start to get wide I quit shooting.
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i never shoot more than 2 arrows at a time, like batman i try to shoot one arrow pick it up go to a different position then shoot again.
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Does it count if you shoot 1 arrow out of 10 different bows!lol
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Here a some of the first arrows I put through my Bruin that I got this fall, at 25 yds. I like to practice at 25-30 yrds, it makes 15 all that more easy.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/BadgerArrow/bruin.jpg)
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My one shot groups are outstanding. :archer:
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FANTASTIC question but I don't trust everyone to be honest.
I'm working hard to keep my arrows in about a 5in (across) circle. I feel it represents a good heart/lung shot. Which is what you should be going for. I'd be lying if I said all of them were in it but most of them are. I shoot with that accuracy out to about 15-17 yds. Between that and 23yds my groups open up a few more inches.
For hunting I only shoot below 17 yds because I feel even with a less than perfect shot my groups are still good enough for a vital shot. I do still occasionally experience a wild shot which is why I keep it so close.
I also agree with batman that is good advice.
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Most of us can shoot very good groups,"SOMETIMES." The thing is that being human we tend to forget the fliers.It's the archer that is the most consistent that will bring home more animals and awards.
Here is a game a world class archer told me to try.Make yourself a circle on your target whatever size you want.Let's just say softball size.Start at 5 yards and shoot three arrows into your target.Don't move back any farther untill you can shoot 10 three arrow groups into the spot without a single arrow out.Then go to 10 yards and do the same thing.Then 15 and so forth.If at any time you miss even one arrow,start all over.See how long it takes you to get to 20 yards.Give it a try,it's a humbling experience.
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A little more than a Pie plate at 20 with occaisional flyers.I try to stay around 15 or so if possible, been a tuff year,Jesse.
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All 6 on my 10" blue target at 23 yards for a dozen or so groups, with the ocassional flyer as it got later in the day. Most were near one handed groups.
All 6 on it in the center ONCE at 35 yards (lucky).
It was a good day. Good enough to have scored an 8 or better on a 3/d target, or take home bambi's dad.
The Kid
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i belive a good goal for hunting would be a base ball 5 arows at 10 13 17 20 22 yards, if i cant do that every other time im not comfy shooting criters.
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I usually shoot 4-arrow groups & I'm satisfied if I can get a 3-4" group at 20yds & under/5" at 25yds & over.
This my first shot group today at 30yds (VERY happy with this one!)...
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/robtattoo/group002.jpg)
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I hardly shoot for groups any more,arrows are expensive and I got tired of breaking them and having to refletch them.
Besides I worry more about where my first arrow goes. I tend to shoot 3-4 arrows from different spots in the yard and aim for a different location on the target every time.
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40 yards (Helps with the 20 yarders)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/40ydgroup2.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/40ydgroup1.jpg)
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^^^^^^^^
LoL..I couldn't see that ball at 40 yards let alone hit it. Nice shooting.
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Being a relative newbie, I'm happy with my 6 to 7" groups.
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Nice shooting Rob As always :thumbsup: is that you Morrison longbow?
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Shooting baseball sized groups at 20 yards is world record class shooting. What are you guys' averages on the 300 round?
Mark
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250-260 nfaa one spot.
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their is always one or two that fall out of the 4 ring.
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Originally posted by batman:
When I get ready to leave for work in the morning I shoot one arrow at my target(15yds). I leave it. when I get home I shoot another. and so on. ONE COLD SHOT TWICE A DAY.It's alot differant than shooting 50 shots in a row and then shooting a group. I may be headed in the wrong direction, but I think not. Don
Great Idea!
I am going to try that.
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quote:
Originally posted by Toxophilite:
My one shot groups are outstanding. :smileystooges:
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Best way to practice I think is this.
Stand 6 yards from the target and make a circle of 4-6".
Shoot three arrows. If you can put three arrows in the circle two times in a row. Take one giant step back wards.
Keep doing this.....if you don't get three in...stay there till you can
You will see how this can help drastically.
You will also find a place where you aren't so consistant and mostly I find that is fatigue or lack of concentration (that i mostly my problem). I have a hard time shoot target faces indoors because of this...I GET BORED EASILY.
3D in better live animals is BEST.
Jer Bear
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Great question and being honest helps us all.
I truly believe it has a lot to do with conditions and what you are shooting.
With my target bows, on the flat range and known distance, I can put better than 80% in the gold and the rest in the red ring out to 40 m using the approveed FITA target. Longer distance = wider groups (duh)
Now when I go to the field course or 3-D range with the hunting bow or longbow or self bow things get way different!
From that pont of view - I like the idea of only 1 or two shots from varying angle and distances to really get the hang of my ability to judge distance, elevation and conditions.
At my age now (59) I truly believe that I better keep my hunting shots under 35 yards, and 25 is smarter. I am becoming a lot more fond of the tree stand than I used to be. I also need to find elk wallows where the bugling is good and the hike is a lot shorter than I used to take!
It has been said above that the first shot counts - how true!
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59 you are in your prime Fletch.....just get to the gym and put some good nutrition in you and stretch more and you will be running those hills bud.
My hunting buddy is 65 and never takes a day off doing something physical. he is in way better shape than me, but he isn't as good looking (tee hee).
trick is to never give in to the temptation that you are tooooo old....that is just a mind set. Be active get your nutrition (good nutrition and that isn't always the foods we get from the store) and stay young at heart and you will be running those animals down..Positive thinking
jer Bear
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My groups are 0". One arrow is all I shoot. Just don't seem right to shoot any more than that. Then I retrieve and shoot one arrow at a different distance. Just me.
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I normally shot 2 or 3 arrows then retrieve them. I never shoot at the same spot on the target, I'll pick old arrow hole and shoot at them, never really try to shoot a group any more! If my arrow hits where I'm looking I'm good to go!
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Shoot 1 and retrieve, shoot the next one from a different place at a different spot, and repeat; but not too often.
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I have always been told that size wasn't important.
ChuckC
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I am almost embarrassed to post, as I have a hard time keeping a decent group at 20 yards some times.
Anyway, here's the results from a new Griffin at 22 yards. Best group of about a 30 minute session, but I am actually starting to be able to shoot a longbow, so I am a happy camper.
http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd63/HuntPyramid/?action=view¤t=Barry112.jpg
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Originally posted by Mark Hedges:
Shooting baseball sized groups at 20 yards is world record class shooting. What are you guys' averages on the 300 round?
Mark
Its world class over 60 shots/12 rounds... I've noticed a lot traditional can do it over short periods....The Trad shooters shooting the typical 200-220 are putting together 4 or 5 rounds of 20+ which is that "baseball sized" group.
I haven't personally seen more than 3 or 4 people that can average that over 60 shots with typical traditional hunting setups though.
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I personally make my first shot of the day the most important, usually on a animal target, concentrate and work on form. If that is good, I usually shoot a 6 shot group, moving each shot, back and forth, zig, zag and so on. Doing this I usually shoot a 4-5 inch group anywhere between 15-32yds. This is as far as I shoot on animals. I also shoot different positions, angles, on my knee and so forth. I usually do real well for 40-50 shots, then because of arthritis, I start opening up. When I do this, I stop, take a breather and pull my arrows and shoot one last shot at the above mentioned distance before going in, leave that arrow in the target and it is the first one I shoot next time! This last shot is the second most important, because I am tired, not rested, and can be a lot like getting home from work and then going hunting. This has worked for me over the years, and this year I have shot 4 shots at big game while hunting, all 4 connected, just like practice. I also shoot in the wind, rain, snow to fully apprecate the difference in these situations, helps the "computer" take over.
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I have never seen a baseball group average from a barebow stickbow shooter at 20 yards. Thats a 3 to 4 inch group. Half the compound guys I no can't do that every time.
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I have a freind that use to live right on the state line, several times while shooting with him there I could not keep my 5 shot group all in the same state! With that being said on most days I can keep then around 4-5 inches at 20 yards.
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Let's see.....a 3-4 inch group average from 20 yds......
A ping pong ball is 1 & 1/2 inches in dia, a baseball is 2 & 7/8's inches in dia, and a softball is 4.5 inches in dia.
I guess if you shoot a ping pong ball sized group on Monday, then a softball sized group on Wednesday, then a baseball sized group on Friday, you would have averaged a baseball sized group.
The group I posted on the 1st page of this thread measured 2 inches....from 25 yds. No, I can't do that every time...but on average....from 20 yds....I bet there's more guys capable of that than you think.
And with a compound, with sights....sheeeeeit. Ray Charles could do that with a compound.
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I like to pin a business card or a playing card to my target. One shot at a time, retrieve the arrow and repeat. Finish on a good hit. Trains my brain to aim small, miss small and pick a spot.
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I don't need to see Ray Charles do it just the normal hunter to shoot 2 300 rounds in a row(even with sights and a release). I wasn't trying to knock anyone just like seeing honest answers.
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I was having issues at 20 yards shooting at just the target, my son (5), suggested we shoot a picture of an animal. I printed off a picture of a grouse, and low and behold my groups are getting tighter. He's so smart, he knew I needed something to concentrate on! Now I am shooting about 5" @ 20 with the ocassional drifter.
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I shoot 3 arrow groups. 6" @ 20 yards consistantly :archer:
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Grrr... I was struggling to shoot a pie plate group at 17 yesterday and was pretty mad. I watched on google vids some korean guy win a major tournament and he said to the camera "My father always says "Keep your bow hand up and your bow shoulder down."
It really worked for me today. I tightened right back up.
I just wanted to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. I've never met another traditional archer much less shot with one so I never knew how my shooting compared to anyone. I'm glad to see I'm alright. I honestly thought folks were ripping stuff at 30 yds.
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First of all, I'm not being critical of ANYONE here! I'm just stating my personal feelings about my own shooting. I haven't measured my groups, but at 15-17 yards I expect to be able to put every arrow within 2-3 inches of where I'm looking.
I also agree with batman, that after I'm confident I am tuned (bow/form) then I'm a lot more interested in where my first arrow goes than I am the group I shoot. I enjoy shooting and shoot a lot of arrows, but I am a lot more focused and intense when I shoot the first arrow of the day.
Now if I could just get all this to equate to meat in the freezer, I'd be doing good... :)
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Shoot a Bob Lee take down recurve @ 55lbs off the shelf, My avg. 300 round is in the 230's with a high of 251.
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mark we expect to see you in the olympics then. them danged koreans are making us look like fools.
So exactly how many knocks do you break a day with those 2 inch groups at 15 yds?
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Hey, here's a couple questions about this:
If Mark's goal is to put every arrow within 2 or 3 inches of where he's looking, could he actually have groups as big as 4 to 6 inches and be within his goal?
Does it mean those folks shooting 2" groups are putting every arrow within about 1 inch of where they're looking?
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.5 too .75---oopss that is my 22-250 at 100
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uhh...I'd rather not go there just yet. :(
Still trying to get back my instinctive eye I lost about 14 years ago. :(
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thats a good question tox. I didn't think of it like that.
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40 yards - shrew longbow
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p31/smallwood1972/40ydgroup.jpg)
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Based on my first question, and the premise that you try to take your hunting shots at less than 20 yards, then hitting a paper plate every time at 20 yards would really put you "in the kill zone" for most medium and large game. Hitting a softball size target at 20 yards would put you there on most smaller game.
One more question on group size: You fellas who are consistantly scoring 250 and higher on the NFAA indoor "300" blue-face targets. Are you scoring that in indoor match competition or in your back yard? (there's a BIG difference!)
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Toxophilite: Great Quote
My one shot groups are outstanding.
My groups vary from 3" to couldn't hit a bull in the $$$ or the broad side of a barn. Thats from any distance..But I like to shoot anyway
But like Toxophilite: I'm pleased with my one shot groups most of the time
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Sorry, but very few guys and I mean very few can shoot a 3" group at 20 yards every time. I have been at shoots with a couple hundred guys ther and if 1 or 2 could do that consistently that would be a lot. I am not saying there are not quite a few out there, but we are talking out of thousands of shooters. Sorry but don't see it!! Shawn
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I agree Shawn.
You and I and most everyone else can do it SOME times,but it is the exception rather than the rule.
I've been to shoots with 500-600 registered shooters and I haven't seen it yet.
Also,everyone is the king of their own back yard.
Not trying to knock anyone or their posted outstanding groups, but we don't want to discourage the new folks too much. :)
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Concentration and practice is the most important I think.....I think we shoot to many arrows and our fatigue factor and lack of concentraion kicks in...then the old lack of confidence is running right up behind that.
I shoot less arrows and concentrate on them more and I seem to do better.
Jer Bear
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My groups are too big, after reading through this post.
oz
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Here's one of my more famous 1 shot groups: Red tennis ball can lid at 48 yards--please notice my arrow is at an angle indicating an actual descending flight path!
(Please ignore the 100's of other arrow holes which are nowhere near the red lid...)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b376/bachbone/1shotgrp.jpg)
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If anyone is getting discouraged please don't.
Archery is one of few sports that you might get better as you get older instead of worse. Given enough time you can learn to shoot well, but don't forget why you started traditional. It's hard, it requires skill, concentration, patience, perseverance, and above all practice. There are no quick fixes. The price of your bow or who built it will not save you.
But luckily the road to accuracy is easy to follow. It looks like a 20 yd four wheeler path to nowhere. You can find it in your back yard. If you get lost look for discarded targets.
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/SwampPygmy/rdtoaccuracy400x300.jpg)
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/SwampPygmy/blackhole400x300.jpg)
This post was obviously a joke, I just wanted to make the point that when you read peoples groups don't underestimate the years of intense hours of practice that allows you to say such things truthfully. I'm very happy to announce I'm accurate up to 15 yds. That may not sound like a great accomplishment but this stuff doesn't come easy.
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I never really worry about "groups" myself, I really much prefer one shot at a time......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana%20II/Solana09091.jpg)
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now Curt...you cut that out :)
by the size of that hole, looks like a nice tight three arrow group :biglaugh:
or one big bad snuffer :eek:
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I have never worried about groups, even before I shot traditional. It all comes down to one arrow. I like to shoot at a different target each time, at different yardages.
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Nice shot Curt, love the new avatar :thumbsup:
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Perfect shot Curt :thumbsup:
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Curt, that's a classic shot on a fine buck!
So how do you practice to get results like that?
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while I understand that in bowhunting there is only one shot, that does not preclude the fact that there are good bowhunters that can shoot more than one shot.
I didn't shoot these grops, would that I could. they were shot by a bowhunting friend of mine, getnbetr. at least in Texas he kinda sets the standard for barebow, one finger touching arrow.
http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/gitnbetr
in the bottom pic there are 10 arrows pictured, a bow hunter can be a very good shot. all shot at 20 yds indoors. if ya want to know how good ya are give it a try for 60 arrows. it is tuff.
rusty
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Toxophilite (philip) -
"Here's one of my more famous 1 shot groups: Red tennis ball can lid at 48 yards--please notice my arrow is at an angle indicating an actual descending flight path!"
Is that statement aimed at the pic of me with my group? I hope not, cause that would tend to offend me. And if it was, please know that the arrow angle looks weird, because my elk is leaning on the hay bales at about a 45 degree angle.
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Originally posted by Smallwood:
40 yards - shrew longbow
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p31/smallwood1972/40ydgroup.jpg)
thats some nice shooting buddy! :thumbsup: im gonna have to come field test the range soon.
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Andy, i can't wait, this spring we'll have to get together.
the reason i took this pic in the first place, was because for me, it was an exceptional group, definitely not the norm for me. lol
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LOL Curt thats funny,nice shot by the way
:thumbsup:
Guess it depends on how many arrows many say they only shot 1 arrow groups which puts there groups size down under 1/2" LOL
Most folks can't shoot 240 on the 300 round which means there's arrows in the 3 ring which is app. 10" across. Thats 60 arrows that ALL count...does a flier on game not count ?? I guess if was a clean miss...
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Mr. Smallwood, please don't take offense. I really wasn't commenting on anybody's group--just my one arrow. I'm pretty proud of that shot.
After years of looking at postings of photos of tight groups of arrows shot from distances of 25 yards or more, I'm just amazed at how absolutely flat those bows seem to shoot compared to mine!
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This thread got started in the first place because "1Cycopath" wanted some advice about getting good enough to hunt traditional.
He got lots of good advice but he also got some very unrealistic input from some who just can't resist bragging and showing off. :banghead:
Seeing that happening, I chose to do a little "tongue in cheek" about 1 shot groups instead of just getting griped off.
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my group this year has been about 2 acres.some days a little better.
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There is usually 6 or 7 in our group. Unless Ron is napping.