Okay guys- I have shot lots of citters. Taught IBEP. I know about "sharp" broadheads. Used Magnus for 15 years now with great success. Accu-sharp and a few swipes on ceramics and they are what I would call "sharp"- shaving hair on my arm. Now the new lesson (for me!!). . .
With that said- I used a German Kinetic this year- out of the box- the sharpest thing I have ever witnessed. Scarey SHARP. . .
I shot a KS buck in Nov. and the arrow sliced through with barely a blink. The deer ran about 25-30 yards and looked back. He never knew he was hit. Finally just fell over. I have never- I mean NEVER- witnessed blood like that in my entire life. Where he was standing looked like a 3' circle of blood poured out from a bucket. It turned out to be lung and heart!
Now- I have thought about this alot. . . I talked to Ron at KME and he was not suprised. As a detailed sharpening guy, he helped me realize there is "sharp" and there is "SHARP." And you can easily kill most animals with "sharp" and probably even less than "sharp." BUT- there is something to be said about "SHARP." I mean truly hair popping sharp- perhaps as sharp or more than a razor!
I am not naive enough to think one deer will give me enough evidence- but I am SERIOUSLY re-thinking what "sharp" really means. It brings me back to old experiences and reflections on various hits and even the the accidental/ occassional marginal shots.
Just something new for me to consider as I close out my year in these reflective holiday evenings. . .
Thoughts??. . .
I have a freind that got some of those shortly after they came out and he said that they were so "SHARP" that he was afraid to handle them with out gloves.
When I can afford some I will get some, I would like to get just one for the IBEP classes that I teach just to show the class what "SHARP" is.
Brent- However- while they are a GREAT broadhead, my hope and point is NOT to advertise the Kinetics (mine were a gift and I could never afford them otherwise). I guess I would like to think that the sharpness of those heads is a great standard for us. While I may not get there, I am going to take more time and tools to hopefully move that direction with my Magnus and others to be "SHARP".
i got a few packs of them silverflames and i agree most people dont understand just what truly SHARP really is
that i believe can be really beneficial to a traditional bowhuntr if the quarry doesnt know its hit it may not travel as far
I switched to a different quiver this year where the arrows were in contact with each other. I was constantley trying to touch up the heads to pretty sharp. Finaly gave up on my 3-blades, just was not satisfied with sharpnest or results. I went back to a bow quiver and the old standby Zwickeys Hoping for better results in a few hours this morning. Finally getting back to temps that my old body can handle.
So, do we know how German Kinetic puts "SHARP" on their broadhead, or is this some kind of EDM technology??
They are the sharpest and might I dare say toughest or close to, on the market. I use them as a standard for sharpening all my heads now. Hours on diamond hones and leather!
How they do it (From their webpage)
"CNC-Laser cuts the blades from a tool steel board. The thickness of 1.80mm (.071") and the grinding of the cutting edges are made in a CNC wet-grinding process to preserve the hardness of the steel. No other manufacturer offers this blade strength!! Prior to this process the blades are bead-blasted and vibratory ground.
The blades are precisely tempered to 55-57 HRC. In order to ensure a homogenous molecular structure of the steel, the blades are then subzero quenched in a special cooling chamber.
The final process in achieving razor sharpness is accomplished by de-burring of the edges on a wheel containing elephant leather and a special polish paste."
Good News! They have a sale - Only $79.95 for 3!
i have shot them in a foam target like 20 times or more and still took the hair off my arm
I shot through a whitetail doe with a Bear Razorhead and she went on feeding until she fell over. The attitude of the deer (physically and mentally) has more to do with how they react to being shot, but sharp will help. We are talking enth' degrees of sharpness now so let's make sure we don't make folks think they can't hunt with anything but a German Kinetics head.
I can shave hair with my file sharpened Bears, so they kill quickly and let good blood trails.
Enth' degrees.
The question I have though, is once they become dull, how difficult is it to get them sharp again?
After sharpening my Eclipses are just as sharp as the GK broadheads and I get 6 for the price of one.. I'd bet on it!
I personally think you can get almost every good quality head to be as sharp as a GK. It just might take a little time.
At 80 bucks for 3 I think I can go without them, I have my eye on some eclipses and will stick with my old trust worthy ones.
Ksdan already stated he isn't trying to promote German Kinetic broadheads, he simply has a new perspective of what realy scary sharp is after handling them and has a new standard to strive for regardless of what broadhead he chooses to use.
We are all aware the GK heads are expensive and that your old Zwickys, Bear Razorheads...etc will kill things just as dead, and that you can buy a 100 of them for the price of 3 GKs...bla, bla, bla. Give it break. Use what you want and get them sharp.
Thanks, Burnsie.. I'll give it break..
I teach multiple IBEP Courses each year. You would not beleive what some folks call "sharp".
I was lucky when I started shooting traditional, as I had two mentors that would not let me go to the woods without checking my broadheads. One would show me how to sharpen a broadhead, and the other one would dull it, and then they both wached, and coached me as I learned to sharpen them on my own. I burned alot of midnight oil sharpening broadheads, that I thought were sharp!
I knew I couldn't go hunting until they were "SHARP", and that they wouldn't go until I was ready! Thats dedication! I was a man grown at this time and not new to archery.
Point is that everyone should try to get broadheads as sharp as their ability. Some can do it better and make it look easy, while the rest of us strive to match them.
If you know how to get them scary sharp, and you can help someone else to learn....by all means help them.
That is what I've found that the "Traditional Family" does...help each other.
Thank you Burnsie! Just got home from church. . . that was my first thought after a few posts- Guys, THIS IS NOT ABOUT GERMAN KINETICS!! I have a new level of sharpness I want to pursue. That is why I called KME- not to advertise but to gain new skill. Ron was incredible and "lives" my new understanding. I am going to try the KME system to gain new skill.
For what it is worth- while I do not see most ever say this - one of the reasons I have stuck with trad over these decades is because it is so economical. One bow and you never really have to buy one again, arrows last forever, and one set of broadheads can last years and years.
The LAST thing I would suggest is a guy has to spend lots of money on equip. If you have it to spend though- those Kinetics are an amazing weapon.
Thanks again Burnsie for setting it straighter! Thanks to the rest for additional input. What this site is all about. . . hope the discussion helps others.
I love my Snuffer and sharp is the way i keep them...zipperman
I use to think if it "grabbed" your fingernail it was sharp. Then I thought that if it would shave off all the hair in a spot it was sharp. Then I thought if it would shave the hair off without "pulling" hair or needing any pressure it was sharp. Then I thought if it would shave without "feeling" anything on your arm it was sharp. Now I've seen a guy work his knifes still he can "free-shave" the hair on his arm 1/8" off the skin. That's what I think sharp is now...and I'm working on it.
How sharp something is going in isn't as important as how sharp it is half-way through and coming out. Being S-H-A-R-P going in helps, but there's A LOT that depends on the geometry of the edge, which steels ares used, and hardness/heat-treat used.
There's always "sharper" but we've got to decide where the point of diminishing returns is. (Notice I didn't say "no" returns...just "diminishing.)
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
I can shave hair with my file sharpened Bears, so they kill quickly and let good blood trails.
Enth' degrees.
After 35 yrs hunting: New understanding of "Sharp broadheads"
George, come on brother, surly you to, can learn something after 35yrs.
With no disrespect to Mr. Bear, his broadheads are some of the worst steel ever made, you have a wire edge on your SOFT, file sharped, bear heads, they will NEVER compare with HARD polished steel.
All he was saying is, his eye's have been opened, now after 35yrs, he has a new respect for what is really sharp.
This year was a new one for me too.
I got some of the heads from Abowyer, and some Grizzly heads. I found the steel to be MUCH harder than the Zwickey, and Magnus that I am used to.
I found the difference between sharp, and the sharp that comes from hard, polished, steel.
Yup, all kinds of "sharp" out there.
As many of you know, my life has somehow evolved into the quest for the utltimate edge. (not sure how that happened BTW).
As a kid free-hand sharpening knives, the goal was simply to be able to shave hair off my arm with the grain. That was plenty good for many years, and still is to some extent but, always looking for a bit more. Next challenge was to get the blade sharp enough to shave against the grain. That still is my standard. If the blade will shave hair in any direction, it's pretty darn sharp.
Then I saw the hair whittling challenge on bladeforums. That's where you take one individual hair and carefully whittle tiny curls up along the edge of the hair... without cutting through it. That took some time to achieve!
Now if you guys want to drive yourselves nuts like I do, the hair whittling is a good time killer and so is cutting hanging plasic wrap. Pull a foot or so of plastic wrap off the roll but, dont cut it, just let it hang vertical. Then poke your blade through near the top and with no sawing motion, just straight down pressure, see if you can cleanly slice through it.
Soilarch has mentioned another great sharpness test- If you can get a blade to cut hair from your arm without touching your skin... well you just can't get much sharper than that!
Shaving sharp as most of us think of it, is really pretty subjective. Fine hair is harder to shave than heavy hair, and long hair is easier to shave than stubble etc. so "shaving sharp" covers alot of ground. I have found a sharpness test that anyone can do and the results are accurate and reliable:
Turkey wing or tail feathers. Sharpen your blade and while holding the feather by the base of the quill, see how far away from the quill you can get and still cut off sections of the feather. A fairly dull blade will cut right against the quill but, the farther you move away from the quill the sharper the blade needs to be cut the fibers before they flex away from the blade. When you can cut the very tips off... ;)
Ron
Great info. Thanks for the report, KSdan.
This fall I was sitting on a moose gutpile hoping for some bear action when I decided to to nock an arrow to be ready. Well in the process the silver flame just brushed my string and TWANG. Needless to say I didn't have a spare string, so that ended my hunting for the night.
Like you say "spooky sharp"
anyone who wants to know.. Ron is 1st class all the way.
I ordered 6 grizz from 3 rivers and had them mailed directly to Ron, for $5 per head i received perfect, shaving sharp heads. I have messed with these grizz's before and as anyone who has, getting the ruff metal out of the way is the hard part, getting it down to a 25 degree angle, all the way down..so now all i have to do is to usr Ron's knife sharpner to keep them "scarey sharp".. Buy the way, Ron got behind because of a sick child he had to babysit, and couldn't go to his shop, so when i contacted him about my heads, he explained to me his sick child problem, and then PAID the 2day shipping to me.. I said no way, but he insisted and didn't make much money from my order.. a great guy to deal with and if you're worried about "day time minutes" he is great to talk to.
Hey Dick, You old mother trucker (his email address just so everyone knows I'm not being vulgar).
Good to see you posting! Thanks for the kind words but the thread isn't about me or KME. We're just discussing all the various edges that people consider sharp and the differences between them...and I know that you know the difference!
Ron
Hey Ron, just telling the truth... thx again..
To me scary sharp is defined like this. Breath on the edge and listen to the molecules scream as they are split in half! Now that is scary sharp.
Heard that on a comedians record a long time ago. Can't remember who it was but wish I did.
Silver Flames are easy to resharpen with a ceramic sharpener. A few pulls and they are right back to scary. I have and shoot several heads I just use them as a good bench mark. Most of the heads at least geared toward the trad market seem very good. The compound gimmicks are a whole different ball game!
I've settled for sharp in the past, not anymore.
I like the blade to start in the hairs direction and it just falls off...The hair that is....
When an animal is hit with something super sharp, they most of the time don't even know where the fly went that bit them.
That's sharp! But like you said, one deer isn't a good sample to determine if it was the sharpness of the blade that caused the deer to react the way it did. Two cases come to mind. A friend shot s nice buck while it was feedin on acorns. He was using a cut on contact style two blade broadhead. The deer jumped, looked around and then went back to feeding until his knees buckled and he dropped.
A second friend - and I witnessed this - was hunting from a tree (not a tree stand as those weren't invented yet or widely used. This was in the early 70s) Another nice 8pt walked under his tree and at the arrow's release (45# Bear recurve) the buck looked up at the same time, and the arrow planted itself right in the thickest part of the deer's skull right between the antlers! The deer back stepped a half a dozen steps and looked around. Then it started shaking its head. After a few moments of confusion and head shaking, it wandered off about 30 yards and looked back at the tree. Shook it's head again and went back to feeding.
Sharp is better than dull. That's a given.
Dan
QuoteHe was using a cut on contact style two blade broadhead. The deer jumped, looked around and then went back to feeding until his knees buckled and he dropped.
I had the same thing happen with a Woodsman head except the deer spooked a little when the arrow bounced through the brush. He kind of took a couple jumps and then went back to walking slowly until he stumbled and fell.
I also have seen lots of varied response to arrow hits. . . my MAIN point was the massive amount of blood in under 30 yds. It just got me thinking about sharpness. Ron at KME agreed with me. A scarey "SHARP" head makes more difference than we think. Dead is still dead. . . but for those marginal hits and perhaps even better/shorter blood trails. . . I am going to learn "SHARP."
KSdan....also learn spare strings, BandAids and pressure points while you're at it. :saywhat: Be careful son....I cut myself with my old file sharpened heads.
most trad guys I know can run their heads down their arms and cut a bit of hair off ... that aint "sharp" .... sharp is when you're afraid to run the broadhead down your arm because it'll slice right down into the skin and cut you bad
I came from the compound world and I have yet to see anyone get a 2 blade resharpenable broadhead "sharp" like a NAP Thunderhead or G5 Striker head or a Steel Force .... I'm trying to get there though
I have no problem getting my STOS heads so sharp I'm afraid to touch them, Woodmans are an other story.
QuoteOriginally posted by BradLantz:
I came from the compound world and I have yet to see anyone get a 2 blade resharpenable broadhead "sharp" like a NAP Thunderhead or G5 Striker head or a Steel Force .... I'm trying to get there though
Brad,
The heads you mentioned above
are pretty darn sharp out of the pack but you can do much better. I've seen many Grizzlies, Magnus, Ace and other broadheads that were way sharper.
Here's a Grizzly that is sharp enough to whittle a single hair. Look to the left of the dime. What looks like a split hair to the right of the dime is just a shadow.
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/KMEsharp/DSC01170BHphotowsplithair110-18-08.jpg)
The only out of the pack broadhead or blade that I'm aware of that can do this is the Silverflame. Give me a call if you need some help.
Ron
I hate to say I am pretty poor at sharpening broadheads,knifes,or anything else that needs a edge.I have bought more knife/broadhead sharpers in the last year than I know what to do with hopeing to find something that will work for me. Right now I have one custom knife that I can get shaveing sharp and for some reason I can get the Mangus Stingers pretty sharp on some sharpening sticks I have so I use them to hunt with.
Cody,
I'm a charter member of Sharpening Impaired International, so, welcome!
Talking to Rod and Ed Ashby, I learned that while my heads were showing signs of "super sharp" (as defined readily here and elsewhere), they had a very, very fragile 20* bevel on them. I had to keep fussin with them constantly to stay sharp..even in the quiver for just a day!
Having PM'd the original poster of this thread, I know his intent is as stated, a "very sharp" commercially avaiable, expensive head just proved to show him that throughout all his 35 years of "thinking" (believing?) that he had sharp broadheads, made him realize that "perception" of "scary sharp" is just that--perception-- until compared against something truly SHARP.
Thing is we can argue that point of "relative sharpness" till we're all purple, cause there is no real "measure" to prove or disprove the point.
Revelation is a funny thing, it comes to each of us in it's own time and way...
"I had to keep fussin with them constantly to stay sharp..even in the quiver for just a day!"
Doc thats my problem after about two hunts my arrows come out of my back quiver dull and I have to touch them back up. I am not haveing any issues putting critters down I have bagged a half dozen wild hogs and a nice mature whitetail buck this fall all recovered within 25 to 60 yards. I will say I have not been impressed with the last few blood trails I had to work with and the shots were all good double lung hits.
Ron,
Now THAT's sharp!!! :scared:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Ron,
Now THAT's sharp!!! :scared:
Jason,
Yup, sure is!! :biglaugh: Better have a big 'ol can of sulfer handy if you were to get cut with that!
Seriously though, that's a broadhead that will leave a disgusting bloodtrail. KSdan is absolutely right, there's a world of difference between sharp and
sharp and the level of broadhead sharpness is second only to shot placement and pass through penetration in the long list of factors that influence blood trail quality, quantity and game recovery.
Ron
Okay.....
So where on this scale of sharpness does the well done knapped flint hunting point belong? I've read any number of times that they are sharper than a surgeons scalpel.
Lobo,
I'd bet that a well knapped flint head would be right up there near, or at the top of the sharpness scale. We could all learn a thing or two from the Native American broadhead makers! :thumbsup:
Ron
But Ron.... :)
Given our many discussions, the phrase "well knapped" is like "really sharp". Everyone's perception is different.
I thought my heads were really scary sharp w/ their 20* bevel...till we talked. And they were...but fragile as a cold beer at a frat party. :rolleyes: :eek:
I have a friend who's into the primitive arts...and he makes/sells knapped heads. I asked him "how sharp are they really?" when we first met 17 years ago. He wouldn't let me touch them. He held my hand...and flicked it over my thumb. :eek:
He could cut smoke with them suckers! But then, not every knapped head is that sharp...just like the variations in our individual perception of our own "super sharp" heads, ---till we compare to something superior...as KSDan did!
Check out my New Year's deer thread. A SHARP head did it again. The deer barely flinched.
Appreciate the heads up from George on learning new first aid skills and extra strings. Getting cut with SHARP you may not even know it until it is too late!! Far different from those ragged cuts I have experienced from file sharpened heads! ;) :)
I've been doing this since the early 60's and I too have forgotten what "sharp" really is. I don't think it's possible for any carbon head to be as sharp as a Silverflame simply because of the densities of the materials I don't care who sharpens them.
After slupping into the "that's sharp enough" category over the years, the SF's reminded me that I need to put more effort into my sharpeneing sessions.
Foregt penetration. Most all sharp heads penetrate, but the difference in blood trails is amazing.
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I've been doing this since the early 60's and I too have forgotten what "sharp" really is. I don't think it's possible for any carbon head to be as sharp as a Silverflame simply because of the densities of the materials I don't care who sharpens them.
After slupping into the "that's sharp enough" category over the years, the SF's reminded me that I need to put more effort into my sharpeneing sessions.
Foregt penetration. Most all sharp heads penetrate, but the difference in blood trails is amazing.
Hey Biggie! I think I resemble that remark?! :)
Gotta agree to some extent but not completely. Just like anything else, lots of variables. I'm no metalurgist but, find that most carbon steel heads can be sharpened to the same level as the legendary 'Flames BUT...darn few will hold an edge like they do. Markus certainly has put together a near perfect combination of steel, hardening, and crazy sharpness. (maybe that's why they cost so much...?)
Can't argue with your last statement though:
(quote) "Most all sharp heads penetrate, but the difference in blood trails is amazing".
Been harpin' that point for a lot of years. :thumbsup:
Ron
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I've been doing this since the early 60's and I too have forgotten what "sharp" really is. I don't think it's possible for any carbon head to be as sharp as a Silverflame simply because of the densities of the materials I don't care who sharpens them.
After slupping into the "that's sharp enough" category over the years, the SF's reminded me that I need to put more effort into my sharpeneing sessions.
Foregt penetration. Most all sharp heads penetrate, but the difference in blood trails is amazing.
Biggie, I think that's big of you, (pun intended)
to admit, that even a bow hunting legend such as your self, who has been Bowhunting since the 60's can even fall into the false notion that, " that's good enough" to kill sharp, compared to that thing is so sharp be careful.
Thank you my friend for your honesty, and Happy New Year
How many of you guys draw your arrows Hill style from a back quiver and nock to your bow string in one motion while using sharp broadheads?
Though I've done this a bazillion times stump shooting, hunting small game, and using practice broadheads to the point I can do so at speed while blind folded, I'm always worried about slicing up the arrows left in the quiver and cutting off my ear when drawing this way with a sharp Grizzly!
That does it I am going to get out my heads and see if I can get them crazy sharp. Thanks for the reminder.
I think Biggie nailed it. TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT!!! We can all fall into the That's good enough mode. Some heads will be able to hold a edge longer than others because of the steel that is used to make them. But I think all are capable of being EXTREMELY SHARP if enough time is taken and proper technique is used. We spend 1 or 2 hours per shaft on wood arrows start to finish, yet we want to sharpen a broad head in less that 15 minutes per head. Time spent getting a broad head to its ultimate potential is time well spent. Don't miss understand me 40 years of sharpening blades I am still learning and perfecting my technique. I am far from perfect but I am moving forward. Enjoy the journey.
So Ron, what's the trick to getting a 3 blade head like a snuffer or Razor Cap to cut like that?
Just my 2 cents worth... I own German kinetics, they are as we all agree scary. However, I feel that most other BH's can be sharpened to that SHARP level. Whether they hold that edge or not is questionable... My Grizz; Eskimo's are really sharp, but they wont hold an edge as well as the Kinetics (witch are imo harder to get sharp once dull)... Said and done, take the time to make your BH's so sharp that you fear handling them.