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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: J-KID on December 24, 2008, 05:12:00 PM
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So I'm getting ready to order new arrows and I'm wondering if I might not need to tweak some specifications. This arrow tuning stuff is not my strong point, I just shoot arrows toward that spot. Right now I wouldn't say my arrows "fly like darts." I can hit the mark, however, I often see some sideways movement about 15 yards from me before it hits the target. I don't have the patience or the tools (cutter etc.) to do all that bare shaft tuning stuff. I just want to shoot arrows toward that spot! let me tell you what I'm currently using and those of you that understand this stuff can give me some guidance.
I'm shooting a 62" Tomahawk Longbow, 50# at 28". My draw is 28.5" I'm currently using Carbon Express Heritage 150's cut to 29.5 with 50 grain inserts and 150 grain points. I use 3-5" shield cut feathers left helical. I don't use a cap wrap, but I will on these new arrows. I shoot a tab, split finger.
What are your thoughts and suggestions. Is there some way I can improve this setup? Thanks and Merry Christmas,
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I'd say you are very close. Might need a little more weight on the tip.
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Maybe go with a 100 grain insert?
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I agree, your set up sounds very reasonable. Some minor tweaking of point weight, nock point or brace height is probably all you need to finish dialing those in.
If you don't want to mess with bare shafting, you can accomplish much the same thing by shooting broadhead arrows against field point arrows and adjust accordingly. I use the biggest broadheads I can for tuning.
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Explain what you mean by "broadhead arrows against field point arrows and adjusting accordingly".
I shoot 145 grain field points with 5 grain washers and 150 grain Woodsman broadheads. They appear to shoot identical.
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The cx spine chart online shows that at 30" you can use the 250's all the way down to 40lbs, and that's not adjusted for it being a longbow. Yes, the charts usually run stiff, but check it out anyway. Depending on how deep your shelf is cut, you might actually be on the weak side.
http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/techarrowselect.html
Drawing an inch short and watching your arrow flight should tell you if it's weak. Or, replace some of your 150 points with 100's and see. Not much trouble to try it, and if flight gets worse then you know to go the other way.
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I agree that your setup is probably just about where you need to be. The wraps may stiffen your spine a little. If you like your arrows cut to 29.5", try the front weight tweaks already mentioned. If the "waggle" your getting 15 yds out is side to side, you might get some results by changing your brace height up or down a little bit at a time, too.
I'm not an expert "tuner" but your setup and arrow selection is really similar to mine. CX 150's with 145gr up front work great for me.
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J-Kid, it's basically bare shafting but with broadheads and field points instead of bare shafts and fletched shafts. For example, if your broadheads were consistently left of your field points and you're a right handed shooter, it would be indicating stiff spine.
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I really appreciate all the help so far!
I have tweaked the brace height and settled in on 7 1/4". I can draw an inch or so short and see what happens with my arrow flight. I can also bare shaft some broadheads and field points to see where they hit in relation to each other. I'll try to do these two things tomorrow and post the results on here for further guidance.
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Love your book! I don't have alot of experience tuning, but it's probably not a good idea to shoot bare shafts with broadheads from what I've read. Shooting fletched shafts with broadheads and fletched shafts with field points can tell you if your too stiff or weak, though.
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WHOA, you misunderstood me. :help:
You shoot FLETCHED arrows, both broadhead and field point arrows. This accomplishes much the same thing as shooting flectched field points against bare shaft field points.
Don't ever shoot bare shaft broadheads unless you want to learn the definition of "wild weasel". :eek: Seriously wild flying sharp thingies aren't good. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Honestly from what you describe that doesn't sound like your problem anyway, I just threw that out there since you said you didn't want to bare shaft. It can be a very useful tool if your arrows are already all fletched up. :thumbsup:
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Probably need more point weight in my experience. I don't think those Tomahawks are cut to center.
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So how's this idea? I can get a Carbon Express Heritage Test Kit with 2 each, 150, 250 & 350. The a field point test kit that includes 100 - 250 grain field points. I'll have them cut to 29.5" (or should I do 30"). What is the standard length? I'll wrap and fletch the 150's and 250's, set up a new string (it's time to change) with normal brace height, nock point and silencers. Then I'll shoot a variety of point weights till I find the best arrow flight and accuracy. Is this going to be $60.00 well spent? (Since I'll be using wraps they can be peeled off and I can probable sell the test set-up or loan them out as needed.)
One problem. Right now I'm shooting 150's at 29.5 with 50 grain inserts and 150 grain points (200 grains total). With the test kit I'll only be able to increase this to 250 grains up front. If I need a weaker spine I won't be able to test it beyond adding the 50 grains.
I think I'll do whatever is necessary, within reason, to get it right this time. I'm certain it will be worth it in the long run.
Advice Please.
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By the way, I have a bare shaft so I'm going out later today to shoot the bare shaft then a fletched arrow, over and over again, to see if there is a pattern. I guess that might give us some insights. I appreciate everyone's help on this matter. Got to go now, I've got four daughters (and a son in law) looking for Santa!
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Like others have said, it's a reasonable set up. But I would say baresahfting is the best way. Having said that Let me tell you my setup.
Lonewolf Kayapo recurve 46#@29 62". arrows are CE 150 29.5" long. I have a total of 175 up front with the same fletch as you. I have bareshafted this setup to the T, and have these things flying like darts bareshaft out to 26 yards, after that, i get a little tweak to the side. Anyway I know that Many bows shoot different but your setup is close, depending on how fast your bow shoots you may want to concider going down in tip weight. Anyway good luck.
P.
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Don't waste your money fooling with 350s. They are waaaaaaaay toooooo stiff. I believe 250s might work if you loaded up the point weight, but they are stiff for your setup.
I would remove some of the point weight (50 grns) and try the 150s you have. You may be a little weak on the spine with your current setup. Taking some of the weight off the point might just do it. I agree with the others who believe you to be close to having it right.
Oh, if you are the Jay Kidwell who wrote the book, Instinctive Archery Insights, I want to thank you for opening up traditional archery for me.
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I think you should try the CX 90's with that set up myself, my experience has ALWAYS been that the weaker shafts shoot better when fletched. I'm shooting them out of a 53# shafer and they shoot well uh like arrows :) Merry Christmas
Jack
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Well I just shot 40 arrows. 20 fletched and 20 bare shaft.
Results: The fletched arrows and the bare shafts grouped within a 5" circle around the bullseye at 20 yards and 75% were within a 3.5". There was no discernible difference or pattern that I observed with the fletched or bare shafts. For a while there I was thinking the bare shafts were actually flying better but I might just have been impressed with how they flew so well.
So, what does this tell us? I don't know. What happens if I put cap wraps on like I want to with the next batch? I think I'm close, just not sure I'm quite there.
I could omit the 50 grain inserts on the next batch to lighten up the front end.
Daniel, Thank you for the thank you. If you ever need any shooting help (not arrow help) I'm just an email away.
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Originally posted by J-KID:
Well I just shot 40 arrows. 20 fletched and 20 bare shaft.
Results: The fletched arrows and the bare shafts grouped within a 5" circle around the bullseye at 20 yards and 75% were within a 3.5". There was no discernible difference or pattern that I observed with the fletched or bare shafts. For a while there I was thinking the bare shafts were actually flying better but I might just have been impressed with how they flew so well.
So, what does this tell us? I don't know. What happens if I put cap wraps on like I want to with the next batch? I think I'm close, just not sure I'm quite there.
I don't think I'd do much with it at this point. Unless you know you can shoot way better than that, it sounds like your spine is not an issue. Are you shooting with the bow vertical? If not, you can sometimes misread a nock point problem as a spine problem. If you are still getting the wag with a vertical bow, it could be spine or it could be string torque. There are a number of variables at work when you release an arrow. Spine is just one of them. Cap wraps may stiffen your arrows a bit. You may want to experiment with the tip weight with your wraps vs without.
In my experience, Woodsman broadheads don't fly enough different from field points to work for tuning. A wide two blade would be better for tuning. If the wide blade groups with the field points, the Woodsman will too.
Carbon arrows are kind of funky to tune, for me anyway. They seem to be extremely sensitive to length, leading to plenty of frustration on my part. If you want to be 29.5", I'd bet 250's are going to be too stiff for your setup. I'd have to load up the front-end pretty heavy, which is not necessarily bad but can lead to heavier overall weight than you may want. I like heavy arrows, so I don't mind.
Good luck. Tuning in the off season is kind of fun anyway.
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I think with a center shot recurve,you are right about where you need to be...But you are shooting a longbow...I think the slight side to side movement is shaft contact with the riser,just slightly...
I think you are to stiff...I would bet that 100 gr inserts will just about solve the problem...
I like arrow tuning threads and watch them with great interest...
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I was not shooting with the bow vertical. I'll try that later today and see what happens. I do have a tendency to torque the string every once in a while but I can usually feel it at release and know what happened. i was really focusing on good form and hitting the spot with these 20 arrows.
Sounds like the 150's are the correct arrows. I'll go ahead and order another dozen and set a couple up with feathers and a cap wrap and shoot different weight points from 100 - 250 grains and see which flies best. I'll then order the weighted brass inserts necessary to bring my 150 grain Woodsman to that total weight. That sounds like a good plan.
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UPDATE. Help me interpret what I am seeing. I'll give you my specs again first.
"I'm shooting a 62" Tomahawk Longbow, 50# at 28". My draw is 28.5" I'm currently using Carbon Express Heritage 150's cut to 29.5 with 50 grain inserts and 150 grain points. I use 3-5" shield cut feathers left helical. I don't use a cap wrap, but I will on these new arrows. I shoot a tab, split finger."
First, after shooting a lot of arrows, fletched and bare with the above setup I think I see the bare shafts flying better. Not sure what to think of that.
Second, and this is probably the most valuable info so far, when I draw short my arrows fly better. What I mean by this is that in an attempt to lower the draw weight of the bow I draw a couple inches short and release. The arrows fly straight with no sideways kick and I have gotten where I can get them into a three inch circle with a random flier at 20 yards.
So, does this tell me that I've got too much weight up front? If I replace the 50 grain brass inserts with regular inserts will it improve my arrow flight? I also want to use wraps on my next arrows so that should also stiffen the spine. Correct? I have some regular inserts but I'm not sure how to remove the brass ones installed by *Rivers.
Advice is much appreciated.
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Read this thread through , but I don't rermember if anyone mentioned making sure your knocks are not too tight. That gave me trouble too. You probably already adjusted that but just thiught I'd mention it.
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Jay, I have found that having an arrow saw, to cut the carbon shafts, aids greatly in the tuning process. In fact, without it you are very limited. You should start with your 150's full length or nearly so. Glue in your insert/point of choice and shoot. If you're weak start cutting the shaft 1/4" at a time and shooting..
One of the best shooters on the planet told me to have the bare shafts hitting a few inches right and low of your fletched shaft at 20 yards, this for a right handed shooter. In other words, you want your bare shaft to be showing slightly weak as I understand it.
Finally, go to O.L.'s website and read his disertation on tuning, www.bowmaker.net (http://www.bowmaker.net) is the address I believe..
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pine nut, I file my nocks down with an emory board so they come of smooth. I've also tinkered with nock location and brace height. They are good. Maybe I'll get an arrow saw and do it that way.
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Jay, it sounds like you're really close to being "on" with the 150's at 29.5"/50gr inserts/150gr points (maybe just a tad stiff).
When you add the wraps, you may want to go with 100 gr inserts, cut the new shafts to 30", and stay with the 150 gr points.
Of course, you do realize you're standing on the slippery slope of carbon arrow tuning madness, right? :knothead:
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I did order a field point test kit for five bucks with 100-250 grain points. I'll put a wrap on one of my arrows and run the points through the paces to see if one shoots best. I should be able to test from 100 grains (plus aluminum insert) all the way up to 300 grains. I should get them later this week.
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J-kid, no need to get any other arrows. You are very close. I would think you need to go up to 250 in point weight and you will be on the money. I shoot 29.5" 150s with 175 up front out of several of my recurves all are 52-54#s at my draw of 28.5"s. As said before those Toms are not cut to center, so a bit more weight will get ya ther. The 100 grain brass insert and 150 head will do the trick. Shawn
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Thanks Shawn. It helps when people give me their actual experiences with similar setups. I was hoping the arrows were not too weak and with your setup it looks like I should be fine with a little more weight up front. I'll try the 200 grain points when they come in. My accuracy is good, just looking for a little more stability in arrow flight. I'll update with the results.
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To refresh you memory "I'm shooting a 62" Tomahawk Longbow, 50# at 28". My draw is 28.5" I'm currently using Carbon Express Heritage 150's cut to 29.5 with 50 grain inserts and 150 grain points. I use 3-5" shield cut feathers left helical. I don't use a cap wrap, but I will on these new arrows. I shoot a tab, split finger."
UPDATE
Thought I'd give you an UPDATE on my progress. I have tested point weight from 150 grains (tended to hit left) to 250 grains (tended to hit right) and the 200 grains (50gr. insert + 150gr. point) I was already shooting seems to fly best. I'm now shooting three arrows. One 3 fletch, one 3 fletch with wrap and one 4 fletch with wrap. It's cold outside, but right now it appears that the 4 fletch with wrap is flying best. It also is giving the best penetration. So the only change was a wrap and another fletch which might have stiffened the arrow a bit. Thanks for all your advice.