Trad Gang

Does a Hill style bow produce much handshock in the 50# range? Specificaly the Wesley Speacial.  :)

Boomerang.  I've never felt the so-called handshock that a Hill bow is supposed to produce.
Mostly, it's a matter of how you grip the bow.  You certainly don't lock the elbow or use a death grip on the bow.  I shoot a Hill, or Hill style bow the same as any other bow; slightly bent elbow (unlocked) with grip contact in the web of the thumb/index finger.  

Now you will have folks who say the will jar your teeth loose, and those who love them more than any other bow.  Try to find one to shoot if you can.  I think they are great bows and both my longbows that I now own are Hill style.

Hey Boomerang,
               I agree with Mr. Stout. I have shot all  kinds of bows over the years. I now shoot Hills exclusively. I have never felt the teeth rattling handshock either. With a nice heavy arrow I believe they are one of the smoothest, quietest bows out there. But please, don't take my word for it, go grab one and shoot it. Try some others as well, that way you can come to your own conclusions about what you like the best, and what best suits your style.
                                      -Hillbilly

I shot a Hill Tembo many years ago.

As I watched the archer shooting the Hill, I was spell bound by how well he was shooting. I struck up a conversation with him, which led to him allowing me to shoot his bow.

My first shot, at 20 yards, was just left of the bullseye with the right elevation. Second arrow was right in there.

I was amazed at how such a light bow in the hand could shoot that good. At the time I was shooting a ********.

I eventually bought the bow, with the understanding that if I ever decided to sell it, I would sell it back to him.

He bought the bow back because of the handshock. I never really learned how to shoot the Hill properly because of the other ***. It is hard for me to shoot different styles of bows.

I wish I had that bow today.

"Try to find one to shoot if you can."

Thats the best advise on this one.While I have figured out how to hold the D shaped bow so that it doesn't rattle your teeth I prefer the hybrid type.

Only YOU can say what you like or don't,Good luck

Mine still manages to shock me from time to time.  Just this morning, for example...

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/20081222_rhood02_9degF_13k_wind_sma.jpg)

It was 9 degrees F this morning and there was supposedly a 13 knot wind (though it didn't feel like it).  I'd been shooting over my lunch break for a little while when the first arrow in the pic hit the ball on the top and stuck in the straw at a weird angle.  The second ruined it - gotta start quitting while I'm ahead.

I have 3 HH bows and it does take some practice gripping the bow properly. I have not felt that teeth rattling hand shock but, have had some hand shock while learning to grip correctly. I have another HH being built by Craig as we speak and I'm just about to go completely to HH bows. Good luck and if you can, shoot one first before you decide to pick one up. They're not for everyone.

all the bows I have shot I never felt hand shock.but then there was one bow that hand BAD shock that was a Jerry Hill Longbow.

Cody

Go to this web site howardhillshooters.com it will show how to grip the bow properly, if done right you'll feel no handshock.

It does matter as to how you grip and shoot the straight grip Hills more so then dished Hills.  I have a friend who picks up my Hill or Shulz bow and can't shoot it because of hand shock, while I shoot the same bow with no problems.

Cody I know what you mean about those Jerry Hill bows. I shot a Wildcat back in the 80's that nearly jumped out of my hand on the first shot. I held on tight for my next and last shot. Jarred the heck outa me.I can say that the Howard Hills I shot were alot smoother.

Come on tell the truth all the Hill bows I have shot had hand shock even with 12gr lb  at trad nite several of us shot diffrent Hill bows (one was a prize from longbow safari)anyone that shot them was  shocked that they were not shock free no one wanted to shoot more than a couple of arrows from those bows !

Picked up my first Hill in late August. It shot like a dream. Just got my second today. Going home to shoot it right now. I'll let you know tomorrow what I think. So far I have felt no hand shock what-so-ever. All I know is that my "Wild Boar" has become my go to bow. If my new Wesley Special is anything like my "Wild Boar" I'll be one happy archer.  :thumbsup:

If you are expecting a 12-14oz. Hill bow to shoot dead in the hand like a 3-4lb recurve, forget it it's not going to happen! Hill bows are smooth and sweet to shoot when using proper form and weight arrows. I shot recurves and mild r/d bows for years and now shoot Hills and Hill style bows exclusively, and love every minute of it! I can only make recommendations based upon the bows I own or have shot, and to me the least amount of thump comes from my Tembo carbon lamboo. Lite limb tips and heavy risers equal less thump so stick with the heavy riser woods like ebony or blackwood, leave off the tip overlays, stick with the 3-lam Tembo (fewer glue joints thus lighter limbs, shoot a padded loop FF string, and get the carbon back. I don't care about speed and that's not what the carbon is for, but it's stiffness allows for less bamboo for a given weight giving you an even lighter limb and less thump. I've had folks shoot my Tembo and comment on how geat it feels - like an r/d bow, and it does! Ken

The first time I ever shot a HH bow the vibration from the hand shock that went up my arm and my skull was incredible. An instant migrain.  :scared:  
Once I learned how to hold the bow bending the bow arm slightly and palm it, I never had that problem again by  :thumbsup:

I second what George and Spanky said.  In addition to shooting it properly, fast flite string and fairly heavy arrows also reduce what little shock there is.  I've shot a good number of moderate r/d longbows that have more hand shock than a Hill.

When I first picked up a trad bow it was a nearly straight limbed longbow at 55lbs. I pulled back and shot it and I thought I'd never shoot another trad bow again. The sensation was like a bomb going off in my hand and I honestly thought I might have sprained something. Now that I know how to hold them I literally don't feel anything remotely unpleasant. I shoot for hours and my hand never hurts, only the finger tips of my string hand.

The main thing is the grip. It's always funny to hear people say they have the perfect grip, but it shocks the hell out of them. I guess it's a pride issue, how some people just can't admit they are wrong. Just like we all know people who shoot a bow ten pounds too heavy for them. Some people can NOT admit they just don't know how to hold it. Everyone else must be lying, because it's got tons of shock.

If holding it properly there is no hand shock. Your hand simply doesn't hold it tight enough to feel it. I always say think of it like this:

You lit a fire cracker, and you're going to hold it while it explodes. Are you going to tuck it into your fist and squeeze? Or are you going to let it pop in an open hand? If you squeeze the firecracker you'll be lucky to have remnants of a hand left. If you just let it pop in an open hand you probably won't even have a burn. Contain the explosion, but don't try to control it.

Agree with George and others.  I have a few Hill style longbows.  If they have hand shock I don't notice it. Maybe some folks are just overly sensitive  :biglaugh:  ...Van

QuoteMaybe some folks are just overly sensitive [biglaugh] ...Van  

Now that's funny right there! I don't care who ya are!!   :biglaugh:    :biglaugh:

I had a Martin Mountaineer that seemed to jump when I first shot it. I was gripping too tight and had my arm positioned like i was shooting a hybrid or recurve. I bent my bow arm a bit more and it was smooth.

Hill shooters: Would you say you have a shorter draw length shooting that style of bow vs. a recurve or hybrid? Like I mentioned above, I had to give up nealry an inch of draw length to get it to shoot right.

i don't notice handshock with my Hills. and i still occasionally shoot my heavy handled recurves and my radical r/d's....and i when go back to Hills i still don't notice the " supposed " shock.....i gather some people feel the unpleasant shock/bump, i just find it odd when people tell me that i should feel it and that i'm obviously just hiding my bias by suggesting that i find them comfortable to shoot.

Arwin I have a 26" draw with my Hills, and about 26 3/4" with a recurve but I don't extend my arm all the way out with the recurve either as it's uncomfortable for me. Ken

Some shooters seem more sensitive to handshock then others.Hill's are like any other bow to me when you properly set one up and shoot it correctly.I shoot Hill's and don't feel the percieved handshock that others claim they have.I shoot a padded loop D97 and use arrows that are 9-11 grs. per inch.Some like Hill's and other don't,I traded for one a couple of years back and now have five of them.I am a Hill fan,I have always shot longbows though and prefer them.Most of the shooters that really complain and the handshock are recrve shooters.

Arwin....
I have a 29" draw with my Hill and my Legends Recurve....

You either like Hill bows or you don't.  I fall into the second camp.  The recommended grip is not at all comfortable to me and when I hold one in a comfortable position it rattles my dental work. I am a very sensitive guy though      Shoot before you buy, but if you don't like it they have pretty good resale value. There is no shortage of people ready to buy one for the name.

I don't hold my bow arm any differently when shooting a Hill compared to other longbows, and my draw doesn't change.  The key with any bow is to hold the grip gently, let it find the center of your palm (or some other comfortable place on your palm) and just lightly wrap your fingers around the back of the riser.  In short, don't grip tight.  That increases the felt hand shock on any bow.

Finding a way to mitigate handshock is not the same thing as handshock not existing.

I've shot Hills and Hill style bows and yes, they do generate some hefty handshock.  So much taht you will have to adjust your stance and shooting style to the bow.

I prefer to fit a bow to how I shoot, but that's me.

I used to hate the feel of Hill bows and thought they shocked like a mule kick. Then I learned to shoot self bows and when I tried a Hill again I was amazed how much better they felt. There is a learning curve but its worth it. I don't think there is a more forgiving bow style and accuracy is more important than most other factors.

I have a Wesley, it is 45# at 26".  I draw it 29" for about 51#.  It is 64".  The size of the grip has a lot to with feeling hand shock.  With a smaller grip, holding the bow properly is more important.  I have noticed I am more consistant with my Hills if I shorten my draw to 28".  I can second the Tembo as a good learning bow.  It is also faster than my other Hills and Hill type bows.  Bill

http://talonoptix.com/Howard_Hill.html
The video explains it all.

I don't agree Pete. If you look at the Handshock Experiment 2 video on the same site where he compares the Hill to a 21st Century both with a Dacron string, you see they are almost identical, even with the Century's longer riser, r/d limb design, and heavier physical weight. You put a FF on the Hill and it too tells a different story! Best regards...Ken  :thumbsup:

I didn't make a statement one way or the other.

I didn't mean it like that Pete, and I apologize if it sounded that way! I was simply saying that the video does not give the whole story. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding! Regards...Ken

I shoot a revers handle hill style bow made by Jeff Massie, if I grip the bow really hard, Iget some handshock, but if I push the bow forward with the heel of my hand and just slightly wrap my fingers around the other side, it shoots great

LOL
Don't apologize, but they do kick like a mule.
The video shows it very clear. It looks like the guys arm is trying to swallow his hand.
For those that say they do not have shock, take one in a death grip and shoot 50 arrows from it in rapid succesion, then re think what you perviously thought.
Finding a way to grip or hold it and not feel it does not make them shock free. It just lets you not feel the shock.
Wearing goal pads does not make the puck not hit hard, it prevents you from being hurt by a hard hitting puck.
Letting your hand go back with the ball when you catch it  keeps your bare hand from stinging, but it does not mean the ball is harmless and doesn't hit hard. It just absorbs the impact.

I had a 36" barrel single shot stevens 12 ga that would make you purple from your neck to your wrist if the ducks were flying, but I learned how to shoot it so it didn't kill me too.
I would never say it didn't kick, but I  learned how to hold it.
I am not saying I don't like a HILL bow.

Pete

Pete, I shoot 50 arrows in rapid succession often--no problem!  I really do believe the idea that some people are just more sensitive to recoil than others.  Bad hand shock from Hill bows is just a vicious rumor   :saywhat:  ....Dave

with a death grip?

You either like longbows or you don't; I don't.  I've never shot one of any make that didn't have more handshock than I like.  Some guys love them; that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

I love long bows Just don't like to shoot hill style bows ,, shoot a Kemph or a acx or morrison then tell me your Howard Hills are smooth.with no shock!   :banghead:    :confused:

my point is why would you shoot them in a death grip? It's simply not how you shoot them. It's kind of a silly analogy. Knives are unpleasant if you hold them at the wrong end too.

The question I'm answering is not a pyshics question about whether they have handshock. All bows have handshock to some degree logically. The power of the limbs slamming to an abrupt stop is going to continue down to the handle. That is physics.

 The question is do you experience handshock from a hill bow. I take that to literally mean if my hand is feeling shock. My hand does NOT experience shock when held correctly. Therefore my bow does not have handshock.

Holding it incorrectly, much like holding many different things incorrectly, can lead to you becoming hurt.  

If the question is does a straight limbed longbow with a tiny riser shoot with more vibration then a recurve or other design that is reflex deflexed and has a large heavy riser section I'd say that is fairly obvious without a video demonstration.

I didn't take the question to be one of physics, I took it to mean does your hand hurt from a hill bow. And the answer is not if you shoot them correctly.

And what Pete and I have tried to point out is that finding ways to avoid the handshock a bow has is not the same thing as saying the bow doesn't have any handshock.

It's not a matter of shooting correctly, it's modifying your shooting form to make allowances for a bow that kicks.

If you like Hill style bows, more power to ya!  Don't make them out to be something they aren't, though.

QuoteOriginally posted by Swamp Pygmy:
my point is why would you shoot them in a death grip? It's simply not how you shoot them. It's kind of a silly analogy. Knives are unpleasant if you hold them at the wrong end too.

The question I'm answering is not a pyshics question about whether they have handshock. All bows have handshock to some degree logically. The power of the limbs slamming to an abrupt stop is going to continue down to the handle. That is physics.

 The question is do you experience handshock from a hill bow. I take that to literally mean if my hand is feeling shock. My hand does NOT experience shock when held correctly. Therefore my bow does not have handshock.

Holding it incorrectly, much like holding many different things incorrectly, can lead to you becoming hurt.  

If the question is does a straight limbed longbow with a tiny riser shoot with more vibration then a recurve or other design that is reflex deflexed and has a large heavy riser section I'd say that is fairly obvious without a video demonstration.

I didn't take the question to be one of physics, I took it to mean does your hand hurt from a hill bow. And the answer is not if you shoot them correctly.

I said it that way because you CAN'T  do it with a Hill. The pain will break you down before you finish.

I know you don't normaly shoot that way,but something needs to get people out of Denial.
If you like them thats fine, many people love them, but some people spend good money after listening to the people that swear there is no shock and they are very upset when they shoot them.
Just be honest, they have shock, and you have a way to reduce how it is felt by the way you hold it.
Then the new to be owner isn't surprised and dissapointed when he gets one.

Pete

I think the real question is about expectation and adaptation.

If you have shot longbows with very efficiently designed limbs, in other words limbs in combination with heavier risers that express the optimal potential energy delivered to the arrow, and then you shoot one of many versions of a straight limbed bow with a lighter mass riser, you will feel excess energy not delivered to the arrow in your hand, arm and shoulder. There are ways to minimize the  recoil with a heavier arrow and a firm grip, but there is no way to eliminate it.

A lot of archers shoot straight limbed bows with great accuracy. In fact many archers shoot straight limbed bows(which more often than not have slight back-set or follow the string) better than they shoot reflex/deflex designs. Is it adaptation, or expectation, or just a matter of being used to a certain design?

There are some great Hill style bows, and Hill style inspired bows out there. With all the experimentation that Howard Hill did with bow design throughout his lifetime, I wonder what he would have come up with if he had continued his bow experiments knowing what bowyers know today? The longbow has been around a long time, and it is still being refined and improved upon. And yet, having said that, a fine Hill style bow in the hands of someone who loves it is a mighty weapon with a noble history, and history is vitally important aspect of traditional archery.

they sure do look cool though....  ben

they sure do look cool though....  ben

One thing more; some archers are very sensitive to hand shock, and some are not. That is a fact. If a Hill bow has too much hand shock for someone, there are a lot of alternative bow designs that minimize the "shock", but for those archers who are not sensitive to it, all the better for them. There is something very satisfying about shooting a Hill longbow, and shooting it well. The simple lines, the glassy smooth draw, and the easy release are hallmarks of a fine Hill longbow, and not to be missed.

Right on Swamp Pigmy.  It seems that those who find Hills kick a lot just have a shooting style that's not amenable to shooting straight limbed (and perhaps low-wrist) bows.  I certainly don't change my shooting style, grip or anything else when I shoot my Hills.  Often, I'll have a Hill and my ACS in my basement shooting range at the same time and switch off between them.  Definitely different riser, grip, limb styles, etc.  I don't put a death grip on either.  Yes, the ACS has less hand shock than the Hill, but there's not enough shock in the Hill to be even mildly uncomfortable.  In truth, I don't notice it.  As I said earlier, I've shot a number of mild r/d bows that have more felt hand shock for me.  For those who've never tried it, a fast flite string reduces hand shock quite a bit, regardless of the bow being shot.  Conversely, dacron contributes to hand shock.  Just physics as Swamp Pygmy has already explained.

I've been shooting my Wesley Special for several years and love it.  It's smooth to draw, quiet, and hand shock has never been a problem. I wish i could afford a couple more.

I love threads like this one - good divergent opinions and so forth.  It's nice to have a site like this one where such a conversation doesn't degrade into flaming and so forth.

I have to admit - I giggle when I read the posts that say 'well if you hold the HH bow then it kicks'.  Heh.  I'm guessing most tools perform in an unsatisfactory fashion if you use them incorrectly.  That really doesn't prove anything.  If I turn my keyboard upside down, I get gibberish (even more than normal) but that hardly points to a defect in my keyboard.

:thumbsup:

Most archer go through the Hill bow stage at one time or another , its one of the good things about traditional archery . I think the Hill style design is most appreicated for most archers at a 66 inch length bow, just my opinion , dont over bow yourself and it can be some darn good fun!!Peace..and Happy New year walking with your bow in 2009!!!  :)  Marco #78

The sweet spot for pressure from your bow hand grip is a bit different on a straight handle Hill when compared to a high wrist pistol grip bow. If you attempt to shoot the Hill like a recurve, you'll not get enough action out of the lower limb which will cause the limbs to return out of time. This can bite you pretty hard, but this handshock is induced by the improper grip and operator error. This bite and handshock does not exist when the bow is gripped properly because the limbs will then return in proper time. When the bow is in time, feedback to the archer is that of smoothness which when combined with the lightness and stability of the longbow creates an overwhelming smile upon the archers face:)

Daddy B. described it well.

Its amusing to see these 'incredible handshock' theories about Hill-style bows used as pure fact. The same thing happens with many simple forms of learning.  Some folks will swear the broom won't sweep until someone suggests holding it with the bristles down.  And then, some still won't learn.

ANY well-made bow (or broom) can be operated  comfortably and effectively if the design and inherent 'use characteristics' are taken into account.  If applied with common sense the horrible handshock theory often applied to straight-limbed bows is reduced to what it really is... sillyness.  It's fun to test ideas and debate theories.  But at the point that biased theory starts to insult reality, the latter based on the shooter's actual use and enjoyment of the 'test device'...well then it just becomes annoying.

In a nutshell, any bow has 'shock' if you THINK it does, and it WILL be uncomfortable to shoot if you don't use it the way it was designed to be used.  I don't know how else to put it.

BTW, I shoot Hills, Shrews, Morrisons, Widows, many of the so-called 'low handshock' brands.  I've also had chronic bow shoulder problems in the past, mostly back in my 'recurves are tops' days.  Today I shoot a Hill more than any of my other bows...with FEWER physical problems than I've EVER had before.  When it comes to archery-related ailments there's something to be said for rhythmic style (and not holding at full draw until the cows come home).  

So, don't pay heed to the naysayers.  Try one before you decide that Hills are handshockers, and by all means LEARN HOW TO SHOOT THEM PROPERLY before deciding one way or t'other.  Let the proof be in your own pudding, not in some else's store-bought recipe.

i never owned/shot a "hill" longbow...but i have owned (and still own and shoot an abbott and a howatt bushmaster) and a bear montana. all are great bows. it was poundage issues that caused me to trade off the montana, NOT "handshock".

i do plan on a real "howard hill" bow this year if all goes well.

IMO, the most influencing factors is poundage coupled with brace heigth (or should i say fistmele?     :biglaugh: )

another factor that can greatly reduce "handshock" is the installation of a slide-on/strap-on bowquiver...

i've never let "handshock", whatever it's supposed to be, deter me from a well shooting bow.

i use fastflite, flemish twist strings with "string puffs", find the correct brace height in them; the result is a pleasant "thump"...

like someone earlier says: "that's why they make choclate and vanilla"...