Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Todd Brickel on January 02, 2007, 11:21:00 PM
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Okay, I'm going to give carbons another try after 10 years. My last experience was in 1997 with Easton ACCs. I made some mistakes with them that was a costly lesson. Now I'm looking at carbon arrows again, but am interested in increasing the physical weight.
Since I've read a bunch on here from others increasing point weight with 200+ grn heads and 100+ grn inserts, I wanted to solicit opinions on distributing the increasing weight. I believe FOC may still be important, if for nothing else than trajectory and not making it difficult for feathers to steer the shaft. But honestly I don't know.
So if one is adding lets say 100 grains to the arrow is it best to distribute it throughout the arrow via say weight tubes, or to concentrate the increase at the point either in broadhead weight or insert weight? Or lastly is an equal distribution over the length of the shaft and the point best?
Thanks for your advice and expertise.
Ramhunter
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TTT
I too would like to hear some views on this
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IMO adding weight along the entire shaft also adds stiffness which in most cases is not what we want unless one is shooting a high poundage bow. I picked up a 1/2dozen carbon express 45/65s @29"stripped the vanes added feathers and 165 gr head. They weighed 535 gr.total and shot great at 53 lbs.
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Check out Pete ward's site www.peteward.com (http://www.peteward.com) and hisd review of the Ace 200gr Super Express. Whether you add weight to the front end or over the length of the arrow will not make a difference...a 600gr arrow is a 600gr arrow. I used to shoot with the weight tubes and have since switched over to the brass inserts, steel b'head adapters and did not notice any difference. I still miss those deer!! :banghead:
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You can add weight to carbons by filling them with weight tubes as you can get them at 3 Rivers (http://www.3riversarchery.com/ListProduct.asp?offset=3) or for even more weight you may use "aquarium airhose" wich should be even heavier then the weight tubes and cost less then them. As these things are very weak and the weight is added over the whole legth of the shaft spine is nearly not influenced.
Depending on waht weight you want and what spine you need heavy carbons as the gold tip traditional, the carbon express heritage or grizzly sticks there may be carbon shafts that already have enogh weight for your purpose.
Greetings, Schlechee
PS: As i am german i hope my english is good enough you understand what i mean
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I had some Maximus left over from my compound days and as they where dear shaft I wanted to try and use them.Even with heaps of weight up front they are still a bit light for my 63# Robertson so I added some of the black rubber tubing that is used to hold the screen in fly screen doors(do you have them in the USA)This made the arrows about 750 grains with steel adaps and 180grain b/heads.The really interesting thing is that having the weight inside the shaft made the dynamic spine softer than it was before even though it was the same on the spine tester.I guess it is the increased mass that slows the reaction of the shaft.?
Cheers KIM
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I've been wondering this myself. I have a few Easton Lightspeeds in 500 spine that should be fine for my bow, but I need to up the weight considerably. Does adding the extra weight up front, ie; heavier heads & adapters, not reduce the spine at all?? I always thought that a heavier point would weaken the spine. Do weight inserts & b/head adapters not have the same effect?
For my alloys I used some microbore PVC tubing cut 1" longer than the shaft length. This brought the weight up by a nice 150gn & hasn't affected the spine at all.
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We continue to talk this subject to death. Being cheap and or retired as I am, I added 1/8 inch poly rope that I got at the dollar store for 50 ft for a buck. I use the bemen 500 size shaft at 29 1/4 inch long, 3 5.5 inch bananna fletch and 125 gr bh. My bows are checkmate at 48 lb and 50 lb at 28 inch draw and my physical draw is 29 inch. I have not found that adding the weight of the poly rope does change the spine of the arrow. It does add about 15% to the total weight of the finished arrow.
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Todd
I have been adding all the weight to the front, brass inserts,heavy heads steel adapters, etc. Really seems to work better then the stuffing tubes route,
I am now trying the newest skinny carbons easton FMJ
get a hold of me if you want to borrow some and try them befor you buy.
Scott
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I was under the impression that adding weight to the front had performance gains over weight distributed...
Todd -- info on your rig will help determine what you might need or what might work best.
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Theoretically, a stiffer shaft with the majority of the weight up front would penetrate better...less deflection of the rear of the shaft on impact. Also, the lighter the rear of the arrow, the easier it is for the feathers to steer it. I have seen bareshafted carbons with lots of weight up front practically turn sideways as they flew, but hit the mark perfectly and gave gorgeous flight when feathers were added. OL adcock's tuning method is a must for carbons in my opinion, I can't recommend following his instructions enough. Some of the conventional wisdom applies to carbons but not all, they are a very different animal than aluminum or wood.
Personally, I've found that front loaded carbons, i.e. a stiffer shaft than you would normally use with 2-500 grains up front, perform wonderfully on game and foam critters. I have some weight tubes but don't have them in any arrows right now because I'm happier with front loading.
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Put the weight up front, start with full length arrows and trim 1/4" at a time until they tune to yuor bow. You can also get a heavier arrows with Griz stiks or Trad Lites and add the weight to the front to tune. Carbon arrows are very length sensative when tuning for spine, so only trim a little at a time.
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I did a LOT of very careful and scientific testing a couple years ago to make up high spine and weight arrows. I heard all the same things as above,i.e. adding things like aquarium tubing, rope, weedeater line, etc. had the effect of,1) increasing spine, 2)decreasing spine, 3)no effect on spine. What I found, was that adding materials to the full length inside the shaft, that have no spine of their own, will DECREASE the DYNAMIC spine of the shaft. It won't have any effect on the STATIC spine. Dynamic spine is what happens when you shoot an arrow out of a bow, static spine is what happens when you check it on a spine tester. Weight tubes are fairly neutral on spine, since they don't add a lot of weight and they do have a bit of spine on their own. A well balanced and spined arrow is the best for flight and penetration. An arrow that has a high FOC, dosn't fly as well, is harder to tune, but still gives better penetration than a lighter arrow.
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Rick, no disrespect...and my fiddling didn't amount to what I would call scientific, but I've found that with the carbon express 3gr/in weight tubes (yellow) my arrow spine did increase...to the point where it's very easy to see with impact location, not necessarily lower, but decidedly to the left (right handed) even at hunting distances. My opinion is because the material is "stiff" compared to some of the other things used. I really couldn't tell when I used soft materials like rope, screen spline, or aquarium tubing.
I think there are quite a few archers out there today who would disagree with your statements about a high FOC not flying well and harder to tune. On the contrary, I've found visible arrow flight to get that much better when going from a conventional FOC to a much higher one.
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I've settled on aquarium tubing.....adds about 100 grains.......and has ZERO effect on spine, or arrow flight, and makes the arrow quieter....for me.
OH!...and I can use high OR low FOC from my Arrow Dynamic shafts.....they don't seem to care if the head weighs 125 grains or 225 grains....nor what bow I shoot them out of.
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Guys, thanks so much for all the responses. I guess I'm not the only one out there pondering this question. Some specs would probably help, wouldn't it.
I'm shooting 56# Robertson Recurve with a 29 1/2" draw - true draw as I use a clicker - target panic :(
I've been using aluminum 2020s 30 1/4" long for the past few years with 125 grn Razorcap broadheads with very good performance and penetration. I'm not going after dangereous game, so no need for 800+ grn arrows.
I'm intrigued by the small Easton arrows, Axis and FMJs, and want to have a finished arrow in 550 grn complete range. I like to shoot arrows out to 30+ yards and don't want trajectory to suffer with too heavy of an arrow.
It would seem the 400 size would work well, and I think I need to pick up another 100 grains or so to hit my target weight - then of course the minor detail of making them fly right.
I was looking at the weight tubes in 3 Rivers, picking up about 60 grns there and then changing the Razorcap ferral to a heavier version getting the broadhead to 175 grns which would put the Axis shaft right in the 550 range. Another option would be to forego the weight tubes and just input a 100 grain insert instead.
In the end, I think there are probably lots of options to get to where I want to be, I'm just concerned about too much FOC - maybe that concern is unfounded?
Scott, thanks for the offer, sounds like you are ahead of me in this game of playing. I may take you up on it. I'm very intersted in knowing more about the specifics of your setup.
Ramhunter
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JC, no disrespect taken, I did say weight tubes were "fairly" neutral on spine and the amount of change depends on which ones you use. I am sure there are LOTS of archers who would disagree with me on the high FOC thing, but I have actually done the testing and I know what the results were. Its easy to get mistaken or misinterpret results. I can remember a few years ago when trad guys were first trying out carbons and some were shouting that they defied the laws of physics, they didn't.
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Todd,
The Beeman MFX 'wood grain' shaft is made by Easton and with the same specs as the Axis, except they're a little heavier due to the wood grain finish. I'm guessing that you could get by with a 400 series and a 150 grain Razorcap and be close to what you're looking for.
I'm shooting 400 series Axis with 200 grain Razorcaps at 29.5 inches BOP, 60# @29 inches from my Super Shrew Samurai with great success. I'm right around 525 grains of arrow weight. I think the MFX is slightly above 1 grain per inch heavier than the axis. Shaft deflection is the same. I really like them a lot and think they're better than Grizzly Stiks, Arrow Dynamics Trad Heavies and Blackhawk Archery Vapor carbons. I've used them for two years now.
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todd
I am working on the FMJ right now, the 340 are a little stiff 55#@29, BUT ITS TO FROZEN OUTSIDE TO DO MUCH SHOOTING
I added 3/4" #4 bare copper wire behind the fmj insert, this size wire fits perfectly and you can make what ever weight you want
I am finding no arrow drop with all the weight up front on carbon arrows and I think they penetrate better although I cant prove it
now the 340 shoots like a dart out of a 60# bow so I am still tinkering
if you see the wife ask her what she thinks of carbon arrows, there a wy moose in our freezer that she thumped this year, pretty clean kill
will let you know soon as I get these zerode in
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Jc & Terry,
It's amazing how we all experience different effects from the same tests. I just finished several weeks of bareshafting numerous shafts such as Terminator's, Maxima's, Max 4's, Carbon Tech's and Full Metal Jackets. I shot them with every conceivable weight point and 2, 3 and 5 grain weight tubes. Not a few shots with each, but weeks of shooting inside and out from 10-50 yards. In every case, I experienced a weakening of arrow spine with each progressive increase in tube weight. I found that a 2 grain tube had the same effect on spine as an additional 25 grains of point weight and a 3 grain tube had the effect of a 50 grain increase in point weight. The 5 grain tubes took a shaft that bareshafted perfectly and sent it off the bag target, weak. I know it doesn't seem logical, especially with the aquarium tubing which is very rigid. It should increase spine, but in my testing, weakened it in every case.
JC-get in touch with me before you start buying shafts for that DAS. If you're going to shoot over 60#'s, these bows are off the charts for how heavy spine they need.
Joe
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I just got my CX shafts flying like darts with 100 gn brass inserts and 200gn ezpull points (so total arrow weight was 570 grains outta my 58 # longbow and 57 # recurve) was all set to order some 200 grain razorcaps when I just heard they are going to be discontinued. I really wanna use WWs but I can't find a steel insert that weighs 75 grains... it would seem to me with all the 125 grn glue-on heads out there someone would make a 75 grain insert to total out at 200 grains.....anybody have any hints????
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ps..these were 45/60 terminators that even with the 100 grain brass inserts, and regular 125 grain field points acted too stiff. (got them clearence at wally world so they were already cut to 29"....saved a few bucks per shaft but ended up spending more tuning....penny wise, pound foolish I guess)
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njstickbow,
Maybe it was your shaft. Arrow Dynamics are tapered and I insert the tubing in from the front, and it gets jammed into the taper. The taper is where the bend is on the shot, and the tubing isn't there, so there is no difference in spine for me.
Just another reason I use these shafts. No matter what I do to them, they fly perfect for me, and seem to defy physics :D
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Interesting thread.
I like it when my arrows defy physics, for me :bigsmyl:
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Terry,
I shot the AD shafts for quite a while and never thought of using a tube in them just because of the taper. I did have problems with those shafts splitting out on the nock ends when stump shooting.
Never too old to learn a trick or two I guess.
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Yeah NJ.....that was the only problem I had too...so I quit using the stock nocks early on.
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Marc -- 3 Rivers has 75gr steel inserts (as well as 100 and 125).
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Most of my experience is with Carbon Express Terminator Hunter 60/75's and various weighting methods. In my arrows, out of my right handed Morrison takedown, arrows that impact on target without the yellow 3gr/in will impact approx 2" to the left with the tubes. Don't know about defying the laws of physics but I can get these results every single time all day long. No other changes in the setup, just adding weight tubes. Not sure what would cause that other than too stiff. Can't say about the other commercial wt tubes cause these are the only ones I've bought.
As far as aquarium tubing, maybe you are thinking of the rigid airline tubing? I'm talking about the really soft clear stuff...you can easily tie it in a knot if you want to. It's fairly heavy because of the thickness of the plastic, but very flexible.
I wish I could get the tapered shafts to fly out of my bows. I have never been able to get the AD's to NOT wobble, no matter how much tuning I tried...same for the Grizzly sticks, I went from way too weak to way too stiff with exact same flight results. It certainly may be something I'm doing, but I can't get them to perform nearly as well as tubular shafts.
They certainly work for Terry, I've seen him shoot them out of bows with 10-15# draw difference and fly perfectly. I put them on my bow and they wobble like crazy. I know it's just me, but it still happens :biglaugh:
NJ, David says we'll get to my target wt of 63@27. My hope is, it will be enough to push the CT Safari's (15gpi) I've been playing with. I'm not 100% sure but I think these spine at .150 or so, vs. my typical CE Terminators of .290. I'm looking at about an 800gr finished arrow, with hopes of shooting it off the shelf. I'll let you know when it gets here how that works. What are your suggestions for arrows, always open to something new?
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i just picked up a dozen AD trads.i cut them 30"bop,shoved some aquarium tubing in the front.like terry said,screwed on a 125gr. point
and they fly like darts out of my 55# sequoia.
the finished arrow weight was 592gr.i either got lucky or the AD's are,"all that and a little more"
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JC -- I've thought of this a couple times, but never tried it (never really needed to)...I've shot the Axis/Beman shafts quite a bit and find them to be excellent shafts. I wonder if you needed a very heavy shaft, could you add a brass insert to the front as normal, then another to the front and one to the back to counter any spine change the extra front load might cause...it would make for a very heavy arrow with 300grs of just brass inserts, plus whatever bh...seems like getting to 800 plus would be very doable...of course, only if it flew and you wanted to tinker.
A 400 (or maybe 340) Axis/Beman built this way would be interesting out of a 63#r.
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JDC, for some, they are all that and more. Terry swears by them and I've seen the results first hand.
BJK, now that's one I haven't thought about. I can't get the 340 to work out of my 63 or 64# morrisons with the brass insert, only the standard aluminum...not stiff enough. I have 2 300's here but haven't had the time to try them.
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jdc,
I usually cut mine level with the front of the shaft, so when I shove the insert in it jams the tubing so it doesn't rattle. Glad they worked for you. Of all the people I've sent ADs to try, or let shoot, they all had the same results as me. JC is the only one...go figure. :banghead:
Also when JC shoots the ADs out of MY bows, they fly fine and dandy....double figure. :banghead: :banghead:
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I just tried some 50 grain brass inserts on my 29" Carbon Extreme Terminator Hunters. This upped the weight from 475 to 525 grains. The flight was great before, but now it's absolutely perfect with much more penetration in the bag target....
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terry,that's exactly how i did it.i tell ya fellows.logging in to this site has cut years off my learning curve.
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bjk, yes you can add weights to the back to bring the spine back up, I've done it using the GT weight system, but there are limits on it. ie you can't just add as many weights as you want to make a real heavy arrow and you still need to make the arrow balance out right.
Terry, do you find that you can put the same abount of tubing in all the AD shafts? The ones I have that I tried it on all took a different apparently due to variations of the internal taper. I have to go along with JC, I've tried my best to make the tapered shafts work for me with little success, maybe its because I can't tune them like a paralell shaft. I do have some double tapered hickory shafts that are awesome, I wish I had some more!
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Originally posted by Rick McGowan:
Terry, do you find that you can put the same abount of tubing in all the AD shafts? !
Yep.
And here's my arrow tuning regiment....I get them cut off the front end to 29 inches BOP. That's it.
At that point they are tuned for any of my bows from 58 to 70#s no matter the fletching, wrap/cresting, bHead with or without a steel adapter or tubing or not.
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Terry, can I send you my bows & all my carbons for tuning? :bigsmyl:
Actually, I had exactly the same results with 2213 XX75s. Cut 'em at 29" fill 'em with poly tubing, add b/head of choice. All fly perfectly from 50# up to 72# Go figure :D
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I like my weight up-front so this is what I found works best for me.
I cut 1/8" brass rod into 2" pieces. This fits very snug on the inside of the 3/16 clear aquarium hose. I fit them together and cut the hose at 2" as well. This fits perfect inside my CE 250 shafts. Put on a little gorilla glue and shove it to the front. With 190 gr field points plus this extra weight my arrows are flying great and great penetration!