Today I received an e-mail from a fellow who had visited my website, WWW.Warrenarchery.com, (http://www.warrenarchery.com,) and made it plain that he thought I was way out of line with my price for a Bow Bolt. Without revealing his name, here's what he said:
comment: "Hey craig, my name, as you probably read, is ---. I too made the switch from compound back to real archery. I must say, the idea of the bow bolt is great... however, i must say though, Do you have children you are putting through harvard with these things! $95.oo for a threaded piece of (im assuming is stainless)steel seems a teeny bit steep, no? I understand the R&D placed into it but cmon, did you really have to do much Development to turn it into what it already was/ is? (no offense) well i love the idea of the bow bolt however, i must say being a stick bow lover and all that traditional jazz, my $95.00 would be better spent getting apx 10-25% off my future new bow. I think the idea is solid coming from one do-it-urselfer to another, i must say. all im saying is, all of us traditionalists whom like the idea of a packable bow, smell the markup for miles. I cannot fathom how threaded steel could cost so much to create and offer to the market. pension plan retirees !
and the wealthy can only afford it, well MAYBE the rich have that layin around.(lol) Best of luck to all future endeavors, and may you sincerly be blessed with a healthy future.
-a middle class member of
society."
Well, what do you think? I charge $95 for one and give a quantity break for 6 or more which gets it down to $79 ea. I'll show you my response to him after I hear from some of you who have installed the Bow Bolt or have one in the bow you own.
I would have to ask if he knows the machine work involved in making these . I don't feel that the price is all that high all things considered. :readit:
So...how many did he buy?
:archer:
I havent installed one but I had one in my hand does that count? I think the quality speaks for itself Craig. It's a very well thought out item and I am sure its not cheap to make with the precision tooling used to make it. I dont think it's priced to high at all.
I think it's one of those "you get what you pay for" things. If you want cheap, imported crap, expect a bargain price. If you want high quality, American-made products, don't complain that they are more expensive. It looks like a lot of machining and precision goes into this product, not to mention the tooling Jason mentioned.
It sounds like a fair price for a high quality product to me. If he can't afford it, maybe he needs to live with a one-piece bow.
In keeping with the mantra of free enterprise "It is worth what someone will pay for it", I am guessing the letter writer doesn't think it is worth it, he therefore doesn't have to buy it.
There are a lot of things in America that I think are too expensive (Micro$oft Windows for one), but you know it does what it does for more people than the other systems out there. So I buy it. If you want to see "I think you charge too much for your product", ask me about Apple sometime!:-)
I don't own one, but I like the idea and think it is a good one, worth the asking price. I may buy one sometime if and when the money is available and I can justify it (Then again I've wanted a Porsche 911 Turbo since I was in High School). Like the song says "You can't always get what you want..." Maybe I can get a government subsidy.
There are alternatives out there that are cheaper (thinking of the bow sleeve, or Linux in the computer world). They will do the job, better at some things, worse at others. In the end you spend your paycheck on what you can afford that will do what you want, or you learn to live without it (I've done reasonably well since 1977 without a Porsche in my driveway).
OK, I'm done ranting now.
RonP
Ummm....I would have been inclinded to reply: "Well, as one do-it-urselfer to another...go ahead and do-it-urself" and appreciate the "savings"
I don't think it's too high at all, while I don't have one I did shoot one for a week in a Horne Brush Bow. If I was looking for a two piece takedown the bowbolt would be my choice, and I would gladly pay the extra $200.00 most bowyers charge as an option.
David
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Everyone wants a "deal" now days.
What he should do is make one for him self and then tell you how much money and time he saved. That way you will never hear from him again.
The answer lies in your sales volume.
If sales are dropping like a rock, your price may be too high. If, however, you're constantly backordered, your prices may be too low.
Supply and demand will dictate the market price, not a nasty email or two.
Thats funny what non-typical said!
Mr. Warren,
I have a Tomahawk Diamond Thunder Storm TD. The same bow without the TD is $160 less. Considering that they are getting their own TD system at wholesale, and the installation is designed into the construction process, I would say the bow bolt is compariably priced, and of compariable quality. Come the next time I build a TD, I'll be sending you $$$.
From a business prospective, I'm sure you've done the cost analysis and value added calculations. A talented craftsman is worth his wage.
One last comparison....my buddy shoots a .300 WSM. He spends $95 on two boxes of factory ammo at Cabelas these days. Maybe you should raise your price???
I can only assume that you know what your costs are and the time involved on your end. Do you machine them yourself or job that out? Either way, somebody has to get paid for the time. And I'm guessing if they are done on a CNC machine that piece of equipment is expensive. Does he know how many operations are required to produce a bolt? I doubt it.
It's not like the thing is similar to a bolt from the hardware store!
Guy needs to get a clue on what machine shop time costs first of all. He's probably giving the same grief to some bowyer out there too telling him his bows are too expensive. dino
I would say Jason nailed it. You know if you are charging too much. Not that these are done on a lathe, but even if you made a $50 profit on each one, you'd have to make 200 of them to get a lathe...forget a CNC machine.
The one I had on one of my Shrews was the best T/D system I've seen yet.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
The answer lies in your sales volume.
If sales are dropping like a rock, your price may be too high. If, however, you're constantly backordered, your prices may be too low.
Supply and demand will dictate the market price, not a nasty email or two.
What Jason said is the "law". For the real answer just look at sales.
My comment is that I would have never believed some of the BH out there should cost what they do. But then I got very very interested in making my own knives. After learning and learning and learning some more about what it takes to work metal I'm more amazed at how cheaply other BH can be made.
I still shoot the cheap ones. ;) But I don't resent the guys who make the expensive one either, or those who shoot 'em. I just don't want to drop $10 a piece for a broadhead, let alone $30. I'm not spending thousands for guides and travel or hunting things that can hunt me back though.
Non-typical nailled it! There is nothing in this world that someone else cannot make cheaper in some way and those whose only criteria for a product is price, are fair game for those who live by making a lower quality product.
I have never been one to critize a man's price for his labors. If I cannot aford it I have just accepted it and moved on, or kept on looking for one I could afford. How ever well wishing the guy might have wanted to appear... He looks like at the very least he's insincere or a sexual intellectual at the worst. He's rude.
I have not seen the product, and do not think it matters what it is or looks like.
Hey, Craig, how are you doing? I think your price is right in the ball park. I can remember the first time you showed it to me, before you got all the bugs out. Great idea, well made, affordable if you consider the $$$$ guys will pay just to have a particular limb wood that has only cosmetic appeal. If I shot a longbow I would have the bow bolt for many reasons. Just flying to a hunt one time would probably pay for it in luggage fare.
Yes I own a bow with one of your bolts installed by Dan Toelke. I am glad I found out who you are. What a great piece of work.
I am an engineer and I used to machine and I know quality when I see it and feel it. I appreciate what it takes to make stuff that works every time and is overdesigned, and what frustration is is to buy an invention that doesn't quite make it.
Only 1/4 turn and it's solid? Piece of cake :rolleyes:
What if Dan put one of these in his bows and it didn't work? Would it be worth the $30 in savings? It may look like a stainless steel hardware store bolt to somebody who doesn't know any better.
That being said, to answer your question, the answer is yes, you charge too much. So does my internet provider. And my gasoline dealer. And my taxidermist. And my dentist. And Ford and GM and Toyota. And Dell. And Starbucks.
30% of all my orders on my build list right now include a Bowbolt. Must be pretty reasonable.
Java man
QuoteOriginally posted by non-typical:
Ummm....I would have been inclinded to reply: "Well, as one do-it-urselfer to another...go ahead and do-it-urself" and appreciate the "savings"
Thats a good one!!!!!
Most people have no idea how much time, money, sweat, frustration, personal and family sacrifice is required to transform nothing more than an idea into a finished marketable product...
It starts with a simple sketch on a napkin or something. (that wasn't too tough). Then comes prototyping and more prototyping, change this, tune that, try this material.. (you want how much to make me just one of these??!!)
Patent fees, patent attorny fees (you get 325 dollars per hour??!! and you don't know how many hours it's gonna take???!!!)
Gotta have someone build a website (ca-ching), take professional pictures (ca-ching), write detailed instructions (ca-ching), promotional material, packaging, ca-ching, ca-ching, ca-ching, and then there's liability insurance.. CA-Ching!
Then you have to let the world know that this product exists, that means advertising ("advertising doesn't cost it pays"... oh yea? well not up front it doesn't)!
I left out far, far more than I included. There's just not enough space on the whole forum for the complete list. I'm not complaining, I've learned sooooo much and made many new friends and the whole process has been pretty fun overall but, if I had known what I know now way back when I was first sketching the broadhead sharpener... Well, I might have been hunting this week instead of sitting at my desk.
You are obviously a stickler for top quality materials, workmanship, and functionality and it should come as no surprise to anyone that a product of that level of quality is not going to be cheap. Having gone through this myself, I know what each step entails and honestly... I seriously doubt that you're charging enough.
Ron
"I must say" In one ear-out the other.That looks like a quality product,don't let this persons opinion cast any doubt on that.
Leland
Maybe you should tell him that if he'll make his own takedown hunting bow with a hardware store bolt and then send you a video of him shooting it for the very first time you'll GIVE him a Bowbolt for FREE. I'll bet that video would be worth every penny.... 'specially the part where he's combing the lawn for missing teeth and pulling that hardware bolt out of his ar$$.
:( :eek: :scared: :knothead:
$95 for a well-engineered takedown design that'll provide years of service and fond memories. Hmmm...sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
I have one in an Ancient Spirits Kadiak .Worth every penny.
Thanks for all your responses. I really appreciate that you would take the time. I especially like non-tuypicals response "I would have been inclinded to reply: Well, as one do-it urselfer to another...go ahead and do-it urself and appreciate the "savings" and in fact, it is exactly what I was tempted to reply, but I used what little self restraint I still have and did it a little differently. That's coming right up, but in reality, I think, Jason did "nail it". The real answer lies in the golden rule of supply and demand. While I've fallen behind in supply a couple of times, I can't stand keeping people waiting so I've increased supply and I don't have to backorder...for now.
But the real reason I posted this topic is to show what most of us in this business go through from time to time. None of us get rich in this business and most of us do it because we love it and have been involved in it for almost ever. In my case, if I can supplement my autum years by doing something I love and for which I have a passion, that will be good enough.
Here's my reply to this guy's letter:
Hi ---,
Thanks for taking the time to send me your thoughts about the value of the
Bow Bolt.
I am a little bit confused though because other than the traditional "sleeve
takedown system", I am not aware of another system that costs significantly
less than the Bow Bolt. The "hinge" or "hook" system that Dick Robertson
sells is about the same money and so is the Treadway system and the Bevel
lok system. The average additional cost of any of these systems in a new
two piece vs. a one piece bow is around $200. So, my system is in the ball
park with the rest of them. Being the designer of the Bow Bolt, I also
happen to think it offers more features than the others, which I won't go
into here, and that is why I took the time and spent the money to develop
it to the point that other bowyers might want to try it.
You mentioned, and I quote, "all of us traditionalists whom like the idea of
a packable bow, smell the markup for miles. I cannot fathom how threaded
steel could cost so much to create and offer to the market." Let me try to
explain.
There were around 20 prototypes of the Bow Bolt made in various materials
including carbon steel, stainless steel, and aluminum. The tolerances in the
machining process, while coarse in the beginning at .002" to .005", were
refined to between .0005" and .002"in the end at a cost of approximately
$200 each. That's $4000 for starters.
Next, I personally built 7 prototype bows using the system before I was
comfortable offering the system to other bowyers or offering my own bows
using the system in for sale. I wanted to be sure that it worked well and I
wanted to develop an installation process that others might follow. This
was costly. What would you have to pay for seven 2-piece bows right now?
My guess is that it would be between $4500 and $7000. I made no money on
those bows since they are prototypes and can't be sold so...., let's add the
minimum of $4500 to the $4000 mentioned above. Now, we are up to $8500.
In the beginning, I had no plans to apply for a patent for the Bow Bolt, but
many bowyers and traditional archers told me that I'd be crazy if I didn't,
so I did. Two years and another $6000 later, I was issued a US patent for a
"PRECISION ALIGNING FASTENER". Now we are up to $14,500 in expenses for
developing and protecting an idea I had because I wanted a better system
than what I had been using or had seed to that point.
Oh, but there's more. Between the cost of my simple website, some
advertising in the archery magazine, and sponsorship on Trad Gang, a great
value, I might add, there is another $2000 per year. So now, we are up to
$16,500. And there is still one last thing that is very important. It is
called product liability insurance. Without it, if you were injured because
one of my bows failed or the Bow Bolt failed I would want to be sure that
your medical bills were paid. I have found that product liability
insurance is second only to medical insurance in expense. Add another $2000 per year
and now we are up to $18,500 to safely get the Bow Bolt on the market.
So you see, it is not just "a piece of threaded steel" that I am trying
to market. Now, how many would you like to buy?
Sincerely,
Craig Warren
So, you can see, I did use a little self restraint in my answer.
Dino, your comment is the real reason I posted all this stuff here.
Bill, Doing great, how about you? That prototype bow I showed you 4 years ago got lucky this year. I got a small 8 point with it on Oct. 6.
Zog, I'm with you. EVERYONE charges too much for everything.
Java Man, does that mean I should send you another 100 Bow Bolts right now? LOL
Again, to everyone, thanks for looking at this.
Have a Very Mery Christmas
Craig
Supply & Demand. The price will eliminate some yet others will see this as a bargain.
While I have never used one, an additional $100 for the part or $200 for it installed does not seem excessive.
I have long coveted a beautiful, one-piece longbow yet have avoided them due to the inability to take it down for transport. I would gladly pay the $$ to take it with me.
What is a bow bolt??
Craig, the guy that sent that email is clueless. I wouldn't worry about it. :wavey: ...Van
Craig,
That's way more self restraint than I would have had, my friend.
When you get a letter containing convoluted logic, nonsensical rambling, and that is just plain dumb, why bother responding?
Sharpster, You sure nailed it with your post. Thanks
TSP, How you doing Tony? I'm still laughing. Thanks
3-under, Me too. I tiller all my personal bows that way. Check out WWW.warrenarchery.com (http://www.warrenarchery.com)
Man that was a whole lotta words he said to try and get a deal. I would have tried something like "Is that your bottom dollar?"
We have a guy that calls us at work some times to talk about our products. He will discuss the most obscure things. We finally found out he lives in Northern Alaska and probably has seasonal affective disorder. His calls invariably come in the winter. It's sort of an inside joke but now when we launch a product and are scrutinizing the info sheet we make sure it's "that guy in Alaska proof".
Was he from Alaska by any chance?
bowbolt? website doesnt work for me, tried a few times. youve got my interest peaked
Craig, you took the high road with that answer.
It would have been tempting to just say "go ahead and buy a cheaper one if you can".
But the same guy who invested time and thought into a quality product showed who he is when he also invested time and thought into a quality answer to a bow hunter.
Hats off to you.
QuoteOriginally posted by non-typical:
Ummm....I would have been inclinded to reply: "Well, as one do-it-urselfer to another...go ahead and do-it-urself" and appreciate the "savings"
haha thats classic
Well the dude said he's a "do-it yourselfer", so let him...maybe he'll change his tune.
Eric
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
thanks for the message craig, website worked that time?? wierd. bow bolt ooks like a winner to me. Ide pay 100+ for one.
I know the exact feeling, Craig. I went to a lot of shoots this summer with some stock bows trying to sell them cheap just to get them "out there". I just loved it when guys walk by my table and look at the rack of 400.00 bows and say "Why are they so expensive?" Or "Will you take 350.00?"
I didn't waste my time telling them how expensive exotic wood, smooth on, thunderbird, fiberglass, abrasives, shop equiptment etc. was.
I didn't waste my time telling them about liability insurance, 11% Federal Excise Tax, advertisement and gas money.
I just smiled. :)
When I start making minimum wage building bows I think I throw the biggest party around. Don't hold your breath guys it will be awhile.
Too funny, Chad
Complaining about the price of fuel or health insurance in one thing but whining about the price of your hobbies??? Give me a break.
Any item is only worth what someone will pay for it. It is simple supply and demand.
Craig you charge way to much. Better send me a couple for inspection so I can see if all you say is true. :biglaugh:
I like the system very much and have talked a few bowyers into trying it myself. I guess I should have charged you for that as advertising. :rolleyes:
It's worth every penny and probably a few pennies more.
Well feel lucky it was just an email Craig! Can you imagine the poor high school student working at Wal-Mart being pulled aside by this guy doing his Christmas shopping?! "I can't believe you're charging this much for a toy that's made out of 29 cents of plastic ..."
And NO you're not charging too much!
In my quest for the best traveling 2 piece bow system I have had bow sleeves both brass and fiberglass, bolt together takedowns(2 piece checkmate crusader type) and the connexion hinge on my takedowns that I installed on my used Super shrews myself. I am pretty stubborn about being frugal and I am a DIY kind of guy but I can not think of anything that comes close to the bow bolt. I have tried machining my own prototypes in my shop and its not worth the work I put into it. I am 52 years old and have never had a new bow, some would say I am beyond frugal. My brothers will tell you that if I could save a penny by making my own screws I wouldn't ever buy one. I have heard the words cheap uttered in the same breath with my name. I have two shrew bows on order, both with the bow bolt. You Mr. Warren (and Mr. LaClair I must add) must be doing something right to get me to let the moths loose from my wallet. Keep up your good work and don't second guess yourself ever again.
Depends on your cost and margin.
Craig,
I was thrilled when Chad Holm told me that for $200 he could install a Bow Bolt in a bow he was going to be building for me. The bow was a bargain before and after the additional cost of the Bow Bolt.
I was even more thrilled when Gregg Coffey told me he could put a Bow Bolt in my new Shrew for an additional $200. The reason I was even more thrilled was because I already had the two piece Osprey that Chad made me, and I knew how great the Bow Bolt worked. I have two more bows on order with Gregg, and both of them have been ordered with Bow Bolts. I am a little surprised that only 30% of the bows on order with Gregg include the Bow Bolt option. Gregg's bows are a bargain too for the quality of his work, and they remain a bargain with the $200 Bow Bolt upcharge.
When I was a youngster I bought a Browning semi-auto takedown .22 caliber rifle. It has the interrupted threads to take the barrel off and put it back onto the receiver with just a quarter turn -- the same idea as your Bow Bolt. I "only" paid $125 for the entire rifle just 37 years ago! Of course, a Volkswagon bug cost $1500 new back then!!!!! I know, I had one (but I bought it used from the original owner for $500). For what you sell the Bow Bolt, someone could buy a cup of coffee each morning for a month at Starbucks, and at the end of the month his entire investment would literally have gone down the toilet. My bows with the Bow Bolts are going to continue to be shot by my grandkids some day. I think that is a much better way to spend my money than to just p*** it away on fancy coffee like so many people do without a thought. Not that it bothers me if someone wants to buy his coffee at Starbucks! I go there every once in a while -- and I definitely spend too much money on things I don't need.
I am like many of the others who have responded in this thread. Let those of us who appreciate your product and think it is worth the money buy the Bow Bolts and let the do it yourselfer figure out how to make his own. I am glad you took the time, effort and money to give us a better alternative to create a two piece bow. You are fortunate to have some great bowyers like Gregg and Chad (and others) building bows that really show off the Bow Bolt. Thanks for a great product.
Allan
myself being in the steel buisness.you can't imagine the cost of steel these days...we pay $5 each for some of the bolts we use on mining equipment because they are the best...some things just demand the best....period. so feel no shame about your price and like said,he has the option to shop elsewhere.
If you're satisfied with how many you're selling at that price, then you're priced just right. If nobody found any value in your product at that price then you wouldn't sell any. Seems like you could price them based on how busy you want to be.
I would charge more than ninety five I have run non cnc mills and lathes and I know how much time goes in to a peice like that! Great idea!
The price is very reasonable for a precision component made from quality material. Funny that someone would complain about $95 for high precision that will last indefinately. A dozen good arrows will run that and you still need to assemble and tune them, yet I see no posts addressing that issue. Heck, $95 won't even buy enough cheap vinyl lattice to hide the wheels on the average trailer.........
You could lower your price so that everyone could afford one plus they would still have enough money left over for a dope bag.
You might lose money on each one but you could make it up in volume.
Good Luck
Here's how it will go down. The Chinese or Indians will start flooding the market with inferior, low tolerance "knock offs" of the Bow Bolt. To recoup some of his investment Craig will have to lower the price some to increase sales volume.The patent infringement won't matter because the International law thing is too long and costly and burdensome to fight for almost any corporation let alone an individual.Craig will face bankruptcy. He won't qualify for a big bailout like the mortgage companies and auto makers because he's just too small a business.BIG bidness is where it's at. Craig closes shop, the import knockoffs go up in price and then guys stand around bemoaning the fact that there is no American made Bow stuff.
Sound about right ? It would read funny except it's likely closer to the truth than we would like to admit.
The price is fine Craig. An old business mentor told me once that if they are going out the door quicker than you can make them , they are too cheap.Solid advise.
Hello Craig, nice to hear from the locals in this abyss of stickbow cyberspace. It does get lonely.
The verdict is clearly in from folks about that email you received. Not to worry, in a world of overhype and overpricing the high quality and fair cost of your Bow Bolt product speaks for itself. For those that don't already know, Craig is one of the good guys and a straight shooter all the way (both figuratively and literally).
Craig, Happy Holidays to you and yours. Hope to see you (and the other good guys) at the Durham shoot this winter.
All I can say is "Holy Smokes"!
You know I'm a knifemaker amongst other things and I get accused all the time of asking too much for one of my knives. But when I tell the perspective buyer to just pay me the amount per hour that he/she makes for the amount of hours I have invested, they always smile and say no!
Craig....how many people have bought, or used, your bow bolt and loved it. It reminds me of the cashier who has gone into fits of crying because a customer was nasty to her, when she had 500 who were nice. We tend to focus on the negative, especially when it pertains to us or something we did. The guys a bonehead, you can tell from the way he wrote the letter. Ron White is correct, you can't fix stupid.
QuoteOriginally posted by George D. Stout:
Ron White is correct, you can't fix stupid.
That about sums that one up!! dino
Graig.....didn't read the entire thread...you shouldn't worry about what that guy says. He's clueless like most that would email you something like that, and basicaly has no manners. I'll just leave it at that.
Best of luck to ya sir!!!!!!
My buddies here always comment on the fact that traditonal archers are about the nicest group of folks you can ever run into. They are also though (as a group) the cheapest bunch as well!
Hey if it costs x amount then that is what it is. Some people just have to bitch no matter what. I have a hard time believing that you are tiring to rip people off. Silly letter to you with no evidence to support him claim of the item being over priced. :knothead:
Your craftsmanship and quality are worth it. . . its not just a bolt, but a precision piece of equipment.
Patrickzbower,...yeah, some folks complain to us about Trad Gang and it's FREE!!!!!!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
Your craftsmanship and quality are worth it. . . its not just a bolt, but a precision piece of equipment.
Yeah, I'd sure like a stick made out of grass (bamboo flyrod) but there's no way I can afford it.
Diamands and poo are really just the same thing...carbon, but to be safe you better buy your wife charcoal. Poo may not go over so well.
And Michelangelo's Pieta is just a rock.
(I'm getting sarcastic, but at least you got compared to Michelangelo before noon!)
QuoteOriginally posted by Horne Shooter:
My buddies here always comment on the fact that traditonal archers are about the nicest group of folks you can ever run into. They are also though (as a group) the cheapest bunch as well!
I have never understood how traditional archery places stay in business for this very reason. They are trying to sell products to a group of people that would rather make it themselves than buy just about anything. It seems like a loosing proposition, but I am glad they try because every once in a blue moon I do need something I can't make or don't have the time or experience to make as good of one as I can buy.
The bow bolt is a classic example of this. I have often thought, "why can't I just make something that allows me to retro fit my bow with a take down system", but then I get to thinking about all the alignment and durability issues and I realize I don't want to take a chance like that with a 700 dollar bow. I hadn't heard of the "Bow-bolt" before today but I took a look at your web-site and that is exactly what I want. Now I just need to find some one with the time and experience who can retrofit my Wes Wallace longbow with one of those systems because I can't afford to wreck my bow trying to install one and I don't trust my skills enough to try but rest assured when I find someone who can I will be ordering one of those bolts from you and 95 bucks is cheap at the price.
I used to gasp at the cost of things like shop rates. So my partner and I opened a motorcycle repair shop. Now I know why shop rates are so high. I don't question cost much any more. Either I can afford it or I can't.
Thanks Craig, for sharing the story and your reply with a breakdown on your costs. It helps people understand if they don't have first hand knowledge of such things. This has also exposed a lot of us to your product. It sounds like a great way to go. Now all I have to do is find someone who will install one for me and you will have another satisfied customer!
Merry Christmas to all and God's blessing.
Prarrie Dog
I hate to say it but if you went down to your local machine shop they'd probably charge you more than $95 at $40 an hour shop time. I know it'd take me a while to make on my little lathe, inside dimensions and knurling.
Your not out of line.
John
Craig, you can't please 'em all brother.
Nope NOT TOO HIGH. The best always has a price
My personal philosophy (and this applies to everything): If you have it and I want it then I will pay your price or do without it.
I'd never presume to write a manufacturer to complain about a product that I had not already purchased. Pay the money and if it don't work as advertised then you have a reason to complain. It's as simple as that. If you can't/won't afford it, then join the rest of the folks who want in one hand and spit in the other.
This type person typifies where we are going wrong as a civilization. They believe "if I can't afford it, it should be provided to me". Sounds like the same kinda guy that wants redistribution of wealth - AKA: a handout.
I'm a small business operator myself and I have run across people and e-mails like this before.
E-mails like the one you are referencing always sound the same...a bipolar-type of writing style. They praise you in one statement and then bash you in the next. I think it is just the short circuits within some individuals brains who have too much time on their hands. They say stuff that they would never say to your face.
Charge what you think what it is worth above your cost. Don't give it a second thought and don't ever try to justify it to these people they are a waste of your time.
Chris
Craig,
You just keep up the good work and ignore those that don't understand...we can only hope they eventually remove themselves from the gene pool.
homebru
the guy is obviously a looser. Dont sweat it
Yep, you are charging too much. You need to sell em too me for $20. LOL
Mike
The ice storm here in Maine knocked us off the internet for most of yesterday and this morning I got back on and it took me almost an hour to read all of your comments. All I can say is WOW! and thank you all for your feedback and encouragement.
This Trad Gang "family" is incredible. Terry and Rob and and all the rest involved have made it possible for us ALL to share ideas and offer encouragement as you have here. A big THANK YOU to them. In the end, I think that's what keeps most of us wanting to improve.
Oh, about the guy that wrote the e-mail that prompted me to start this topic. I received another e-mail from him this morning. I'll include it below. Remember that old saying "all is well that ends well?" Here's the e-mail.
Dear Craig,
I would like to sincerely say you are absolutly right. The cost of the patent and achieving one ( all the time and B/S) let alone product insurance just to safly get it to the market would be obstaclerific. ( coined that myself!) I love the simplicity of the darned thing, i see it on many, many future trad T/D bows. If the system is safe, the simplicity definitly makes it reliable. Now that you informed me of the general production costs, I must say, " i will purchase one of these if it seems as good as it does seem" as well as when i have that kind of play money to put towards that kind of packability upgrade. You respectfully delivered your reasoning to me of the price, even with my blunt, straight forewardness. Craig, I WANT ONE NOW!!! take care and thanks for your time,
Hey Mike,
Let's do it. How many do you want? According to Rico's earlier post, I will make it up in volume.
"You could lower your price so that everyone could afford one........
You might lose money on each one but you could make it up in volume."
I really never quite understood how that works, do you?
Craig
in the trucking industry (my former life) the joke used to be "we are losing a penny a mile but we'll make it up on volume".
No truer words other than "wherever you go, there you are" have ever been spoken in my humble opinion!!!!
I use to think the price custom Bowyers charged was ridiculous until I started making my own. Now I think there a bargain. My bows ,and all the work involved sure didn't turn out like a custom Blacktail. Theres also an element involved called talent. My friend your price IS NOT out of line. I wonder if this fella has ever tried making something himself ?
Ray,
I've heard and used that one myself a few times. No truer words for sure and I'M COMING DOWN TO HUNT PIGS WITH YOU IN MARCH "AND THERE I'LL BE." Can't wait, but from what I am hearing, I'm going to need my regular hunting clothes on the trip going down, (size large) and some size XXL for the trip back. What's for dinner?
Craig
Craig- I have been a machinist-mold maker for 18 years, and a bowyer for 10. I have developed my owm T/D hinges. I have hundres of thousands of dollars of machinery availably to me every night to do as I please. After building a few of my own, I dedcided that it was cheeper to buy a T/D system from someone else. Keep doing what you're doing. JD
It's actually very nice to see that the fellow we have all been concerned about really is a pretty decent guy. It sounds like he thought the Bow Bolt was a good product, but he just couldn't understand why it cost so much until it was explained to him. Then he actually admitted his earlier impressions were wrong and that Craig was very reasonable. I don't like the way he went about things initially, but if we had more people who would listen to the facts and be willing to change their minds, this country would be a better place. Most people want to ignore facts and logic and stick to their beliefs no matter what. Most of us would probably like that guy if we ever met him. Now he needs to buy a Bow Bolt and get to enjoy the quality of such an outstanding product!
Allan
Yep Craig, a couple of telephone retirees down here decide to make some money on watermelons. They drove down to S. TX and bought the mellons for .75 a piece. The trip down cost them an average of .25 per mellon. So they had $1 in each of them. They got back and set up a roadside stand with the mellons priced at $2. Turned out that Walmart was having a sale for mellons at 1.25 and soon the ones in the truck were getting mighty ripe. The guys decided to drop the price to sell em fast. ended up selling the whole truck load to a guy for hog feed at .60 per mellon.
When the did the books later they came to one conclusion. . . yep gotta get a bigger truck.
Mike
im shure on the production difference but a set of precision reloading dies is around 50 to 80 bucks and that includes three dies and im shure the tollerences are equal with the bow bolt,
i dont know the differences in production, and im shure the suply and demand vary greatly but im sure a quality product could be sold for less
Jason,
I do some reloading myself and you are correct about the tollerences but there are a lot more steps in production for the Bow Bolt and each half is quite different from the other but the main difference price wise is volume. In order to get the price to where it is, I have to order at least 400 at a time. I'll bet Dillon or RCBS makes ten times those numbers in each run.
I promise, I will reduce the price when I can make that many at a time.
Perhaps you or someone else out there can think of another application for the Bow Bolt, like maybe in the auto or avation industry (well, maybe not the auto industry right now). My patent attourny suggested naming the Bow Bolt "Precision Alligning Fastener" instead so it might appeal to a larger market knowing that the Trad Archery industry is pretty small in comparison.
How about marketing a 2pc cane for airline travel Craig? Sell it to pool cue makers. Etc etc.
Got to say I'm appaled at most of the comments on here about this. I'm surprised that some guys sell anything with the opinons that were espoused on this thread.
Mr. Warren, I have no idea if your product is over priced or not, as I don't use it. However I think you were correct in the way you responded to the customer. It's nice to see that some on here still believe in "CUSTOMER SERVICE"
I'm very disappointed in some of the responces I've read from folks that I know PERSONALLY.
David,
Good ideas. They would have to be "miniturized" a bit for a pool cue, I think.
They'd think it was some kind of weapon at the airlines.
Medical forms for that Warren.
i figured it had something to do with the volume, as for pool cues they dont have to be in any perticular alignment just dead center,
i love the idea of the bow bolt i just hate the idea of choping my shrew in half, ouch.
Jason,
Please don't cut that Shrew in half. Either Gregg Coffee or John McCollough made that bow in the first place and they are two of the best bowyers in the business. Give either a call and I'm sure they would be happy to build you one from the ground up with one in it.
I think sales will dictate if its over priced or not. I'm sure you are not selling them to break even or to make a marginal profit...PR
not read through everything
but i have had several take down longbows buy far the best is my shrew with bow-bolt that Gregg did..its is a GREAT take down system..and bow for that matter that's why i have another on order with bolw-bolt
I had the same question asked of me from a fellow Fletcher a year or so back. In a nutshell I was making arrows like this ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Longbow_lad/IraqDecember07096.jpg)
... and selliing them at @ $145.00 Aussie Dollars that included postage to their door.
I just explained to him that my hourly rate when Formsetting was $45.00 and it use to take me between 5 and 6 hours to make a full set of arrows. So after the cost of shafts, nocks and the likes I was running at a loss. Funny how I had a backlog of orders though...
I've stoped making arrows for clients now days but people still ask me for 'em.
Al, you make a good point. It takes me a long time to make a dozen matched and half way pretty arrows for myself. If I paid myself a decent wage I'd have to charge $500 per dozen. I don't know how guys do it :) ...Van