I decided to take my last deer for this year; I decided on an antlerless deer; as I am already seeing muledeer dropping an antler or two.
I have staked this spot out; a path the deer take over water; where I can sit next to and under the path.
I was looking at a close shot; that was for sure; and eye level with the feet of the deer.
So last night I watched the deer cross where I wanted them too; I practiced up close; and at the last minute decided to use a laminated birch wood arrow: tipped with a super sharp grizzly el grande 160 grain head - sharp enough to shave with.
I sat down on my 3 legged chair; in some catails; waiting for the moment to arrive for a shot. It had snowed the night before; and melted off a bit; and I was really confidant.
I did wonder what time it was; and took out my gps and only got to note that I was .78 miles from home; when a deer walked out into my shooting path. I let the gps down; and drew back; as the deer stopped and sniffed the ground where I had walked.
It lifted its head; turned and looked the opposite direction from me; and I settled in on a hair above its elbow. My arrow was there in a blink; and the deer shot straight up emitting a louder than loud bleat; and then taking off like a bucking bronco.
I could see just the 5 1/2 inch fletch sticking out its left side; and then I saw the broadhead and shaft sticking out the other side of the deer.
I have killed some 40 deer and never seen this reaction; it jumped up again; and took off full tilt; and I immediately figured I hit the heart.
I saw it run hard and tight to the ground until it took a right around some bushes; and then it was out of my sight.
I waited and then took a picture of where I had held to shoot the deer; and then measured off the distance from my chair to the deers tracks- where I hit it: with my bow as a measuring stick.
One length of the strung 66 inch Sentman; two lengths; and a half more. So a two and a half bow length shot.
I immediately found both halves of the arrow.
There was blood on the snow; and then where I saw the deer disapear - no more. Not a drop. I looked for an hour and a half; and no more sign.
I could see where other deer had run off; and perhaps this deer; but no blood. none. I left ready to return tomorrow. It will be down to 16 degrees tonight; and the snow should still be there.
As I left - I heard coyotes in the background....
I pretty much figure I will never shoot a grizzly again. I hit exactly where I aimed; like a dream that arrow hit; and no blood trail. I do figure that the deer if heart hit will go about 180 yards.. but in neck high grass; it will be a tough find. I can tell you; that if I do not find the deer tomorrow I will take all my grizzly heads and hammer them into oblivion.
At this point; I am shocked; and disgusted and disapointed.
If I find the deer; I will include all the photos; because its the last time I will be shooting a grizzly head - I will return to the Zwickey and the easy to follow blood trails........
I feel for ya. That is the reason I have gone exclusively to 3 blade heads. I have never had a poor blood trail with 3 blade heads, both the Woodsman and Muzzy have given great bloodtrails, even on marginal hits.
i hope ya find the doe tomorrow...hate to say it..but that could happen with any head......i wouldnt blame it on a proven head.
I have had deer jump about 5 yards sideways when they expire. Be sure to check to the sides of the trail. I have also had them fall 10-30 yards past where the blood stopped, like they ran out of blood. Good luck tomorrow.
be patient that can happen with every head and every bow, hope you have found it by now
after having a three blade snuffer 160 save my hunt this year I have vowed off all two blade heads. The big three blade head hit the femoral artery on a less than perfect shot and from that point on I will never shoot another two blade head. No matter how "proven" they want to be.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dustin Waters:
after having a three blade snuffer 160 save my hunt this year I have vowed off all two blade heads. The big three blade head hit the femoral artery on a less than perfect shot and from that point on I will never shoot another two blade head. No matter how "proven" they want to be.
Same here. Two blades penetrate and kill stuff...finding the animal afterwards can be a challenge. WW's and Snuffers leave amazing blood trails.
About 5 years ago I shot 4 deer with a 2 blade head. I saw 3 of them go down within sight of the tree I was in. I followed the bloodtrails of all of them and was very dissapointed in the lack of blood I found. They worked, they killed the deer quickly, but it seemed that slit would clog up guickly and not let the blood out. I now use 3 or 4 blade heads. Hope you find her.
Snuffers here. For sure!
F-Manny
What would concern me more is that at that distance you didn't get a pass through. I have shot deer with a 42# bow and gotten pass through @ 10 yards , this seems odd to me at such close distance you didn't?? I have not seen great blood trails from two blades either but have found my deer . I am also thinking of changing back to three blade heads . Drew
any broadhead will do but some better than others. as long as they are sharp and i mean sharp :scared:
Good luck Brian, I hope you find the deer with no coyote damage!
QuoteOriginally posted by drewsbow:
What would concern me more is that at that distance you didn't get a pass through. I have shot deer with a 42# bow and gotten pass through @ 10 yards , this seems odd to me at such close distance you didn't?? I have not seen great blood trails from two blades either but have found my deer . I am also thinking of changing back to three blade heads . Drew
I wondered about that too,but shooting from below and (I assume) slightly behind, he may have punched through the off-side scapula, probably toward the top.
Part of the problem was the low wound was on the entrance side. Entrance wounds tend to be smaller, no matter what BH you use. An exit wound through the off shoulder isn't going to provide much if any blood. Around here, our deer are so fat a low entrance wound (just a slit with the two blade) would plug with fat quickly. The chest cavity will fill with blood, but not much will leak out. I can't believe the deer will go far, but you'll probably have to grid search instead of blood trailing.
One lesson learned here should be to avoid that shot angle at least unless you are in open country where you'll probably see the deer go down. Massive exit wounds on the low side make for quick recoveries, so tree stands or high ground are the rule for me.
I found it! 171 steps on the drag out; but way more important; I figured out what happened.
I figured out why my two blade zwickeys have always left a good blood trail; and why the grizzly did not.
I hit the deer through the lower left lung; through the bottom of the heart; out through the lung on the right side; and didn't hit a bone anywhere.
The arrow hit exactly where I aimed; right over the elbow; and came out up on the opposite lung; as I was below the deer when I shot.
Not one drop of blood past the spot where I hit it. I did find some on grasses where it rubbed against them. VERY scant though. I actually found the deer by following the tracks.
Now speculate as to why I will not hunt with the grizzly head anymore. It is partially because I lost a pope and young bear this spring I hit with one- but more....WHY I lost that bear- and could have if not for 3 hours of looking today- I could well have lost this deer.
And this is a small doe. It is a hybrid doe; that is why I studied it so long before I shot it- hybrids are not thrifty. They taste good though!!
Now please try to figure what happened....and its not a two blade versus 3 situation...
oh and thanks for the support; and the broadhead is still shaving sharp.
why don't you just tell us?
You doubled lunged (and heart shot) that deer and it still went about 120 yards?
Glad you found her, now come on and tell us!!
Glad you found her Brian!
My speculation would say that the holes were plugged with fat.... :confused:
Brian,
Glad you found her before the wolves and coyotes did! Good on ya for the follow up.
Ray
I had almost the same comversation with a very well known bowhunter last week, only why he would never shoot Snuffers again. You must shoot what is the most accurate for you and what YOU have confidence in. For me right now it is a Magnus 1. But, I have killed plenty with Snuffers. Most shots were close with NO exit wound but with some looking I could find drops of blood to the recovery. Who knows, I may have shot them with a narrow 2 blade and got a pass through with LOTS of blood. You cannot base anything on one occasion. BILL
I have now bowkilled 60 deer and maybe 30 other critters, but sometimes even a perfect hit yields a poor bloodtrail...no matter what the broadhead. And there could be lots of reasons, but fat or meat plugging the hole is a likely one. I feel too many guys have one bad blood trail and blame the broadhead.
I currently like Woodsman heads and in general would say that a 3-blade likely would give you a better bloodtrail, but I've had some double-lungers leave poor blood trail because of fat plugging a hole. Best thing a guy can do is make sure his broadheads are sharp and that way if you make a perfect hit, but the blood isn't there, you still know the animal is down and you just have to find him.
Congrats, by the way, Brian, on killing a deer at so close a range! Always a memorable one that way!
So much for the great penetration of the Ashby single bevel. I would think that any 35 lb bow would put a sharp two bladed double bevel right through.
I'm guessing it didn't bleed because of fat or the jumping of the deer covered the hole to the chest cavity with skin.
Another reason could be that there is no way to get a single bevel as sharp as a double. I don't happen to agree with the good Dr. There's a reason surgeons use scalpals that are double bevel. Broadheads don't cut bone they split it. Everytime I went to a hardware store to get a log splitter they were always shaped like a V.
I do happen to agree with the doctor when it comes to penetration and a turning BH. THe point of the Ashby BH at AK BH Supply turns the BH not the single bevel. Why doesn't someone make a broadhead with that point and a double bevel?
In the good doctors defense I have never shot a Cape Buffalo. If I was I'd probably use a 190 Griz. With a whitetail I'm not concerned with penetration. Any thing can do that, I want a big hole. AND Ashby has never said what the REAL differece is - whitetails go away from you, and Cape buffalo go towards you. See, you don't need a big hole and good blood trail for buff.
Brian : Glad to hear you got your deer , congrats . Please enlighten us as to what you found ?? Drew
Brian, we are waiting!
I don't mean to disparage the information you are giving us, but I've been involved in over 1000 whitetail's demise and I've not seen a single deer shot through BOTH LUNGS make it 120 yards- EVER.
Bowmania,
Your statement "no way to get a single bevel as sharp as a double" is patently false.
I'll put my Grizzly up against any surgeon's scalpel AND YOUR BROADHEADS.
And, Dr Ashby never said a grizzly cuts bone- he said it SPLITS BONE.
What turns the single bevel head is the single edge on each blade, Sir, not the tanto tip!
What will kill a cape buffalo well will kill the snot out of a whitetail....there is no difference in the way a broadhead cuts one animal vs. another- the only difference is the size and density of bone and the toughness and larger mass or smaller mass of flesh.
I hope that the fletching is right wing with the el grande. Was it sharpened to 25 degrees? just curious. I think if the weight was over 650 grains there would have been a complete pass through which is different than a double hit, break, and come out on either side.
Just wondering?
R
Just my 2 cents...if you lose confidence in any part of your equipment you will not feel comfortable using it. No matter how good the piece of equipment may or may not be.
The worst time I ever had tracking a deer was with a 2 blade head. I did hit the deer far back and only caught part of the liver (a small part). In this case I MADE A HORRIBLE SHOT!! It went a long ways, the entry was high and the exit was low and got plugged with fat/guts. I did find the deer but it took 4 hours and a night and morning to do so.
I shot another deer a few days later and watched it drop in 40 yards...double lung shot with a better angle; I never looked for blood since I saw it drop. I changed back to 3 blade heads the next year...this was back when I shot compound and was close to 15 years ago.
I always check the blood trail to see how it went and in some instances because I didn't find it right away and wanted to back track to see how I missed it from the beginning usually because I took the wrong initial path.
I'm glad you found your deer...that is the most important thing. I think from reading your post you were disappointed that you didn't find more blood but knew the shot was good. That would be frustrating for sure but in the end the head did what it was designed to do.
Now...one last thing!!!
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h138/oliverstacy/pichers1.jpg)
Josh
The Japanese are pretty serious about knives...there is a reason why they use single bevel carbon blades when they slice bluefin worth thousands of dollars. Someone should tell them these knives can't be made sharp.
The Griz has about the smallest cut width out there. I've always thought it was the worst head for blood trails and I've got some bloodless Griz kills to back that statement up.
Get your self a woodsman brotha. ;) Glad ya found your deer.
Good work finding your deer. My experience heart shot deer run fast and can cover 120 yards in seconds. Double lung hits only fall quickly if the lungs collapse and this may not happen if the holes in the ribcage are plugged by fat or muscle.
Good shooting and good follow up.
(PS, I'll take those bothersome Grizzly's off your hands if you are changing to 3 blades)
I believe the deer ran that far because it was heart shot; every deer that I've heart shot (with bow or rifle) ran like a bee had stung it on the a#$! I had one go over 200 yards once when shot with a 6mm rifle; when skinned, the heart was literally disintigrated. I think good blood or bad blood is luck of the draw, assuming a good shot. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a different broadhead would yield a different result. Glad you found her, Paul.
Congrats on the deer, and not allowing the hunt to end until it was over.
I bet the deer was turned a bit, stretching the hide and the holes in the hide did not match up with the holes in the ribs. As soon as the arrow broke and fell out the holes were completely closed off.
Any chance of learning something from the experience of another is fine by me. I`m all ears so to speak.
I will post some pictures as fast as I can.
The arrow entrance and exit wound closed up pretty tight; unless a two blade hits between the muscles - not cutting any..(slim chance) the wound will not seal up - it may not bleed as much as a 3 blade but it will bleed.
The wound from the grizzly was a twisting wound; and it sealed up like a flap on a dryer vent.
But the other thing; is that this deer had long hair- and the blade cut it in such a way that there was no route straight out for the blood.
Had a normal 2 blade hit; it would have left a wound that bleeds more.
And I say that as a person that has grounded dozens of deer with a 2 blade zwickey.
The broadhead is apparently what it wanted to be; a head that penetrates even if there is bone in the way. But for a blood trail... it sucks.
I think the reason that the arrow did not go all the way through ( I am holding over 70 pounds and shooting 31 inch 11/32 arrows) is because the broadhead twisted as it went through the heart muscle.
It did indeed hit lung on each side; but I just cannot see it doing the damage that it did; without losing enough energy to keep it from a pass through. The broadhead did stick out - the deers shoulders came back and hit the arrow; snapping exactly in two.
I feel totally sure it was dead in about ten seconds from when the arrow hit it.
I shot that head just to see what it would do. It was a test. What happened was I got a great shot at a deer and hit it exactly where I wanted too; and it was as fine a hunt as when I shot a pope and young mulie buck. Period.
But there I was; with a deer hit perfectly; and there was no blood save when the arrow fell out; and within a yard of that. Then it was only smears of blood on grass- and not a drop the whole time - the 171 steps I took eventually- with no blood on the snow. Blood on the snow is pretty hard to miss; and I was following the deers tracks. I had made a perfect hit on a deer; and could well have lost it to coyotes or wolves. It was a long night.
I thought of the huge bear I had hunted for 5 years - and hit with a grizzly and lost; and in that case - there was no blood trail either.
I will start photobucketing some pictures right now.
Not taking up for Grizzly heads or anything, but you may not have gotten 'normal' grizzly penetration because the shot was so close and the arrow did not have tiime to recover and straighten up at such a short distance so did not penetrate as you would expect....Just a thought...
I'm with Shaun,
anyone who wants to get rid of those old nasty Grizzlies please send em to me...I have a good home for them where they will be loved and cared for.
Ryan....a narrow cutting width, twisting through a critter, is a lot different than a straight cut.
Remember the old broadhead shaped like an apple corer? The grizzly actually does that inside the animal, unlike the broadhead that was shaped that way.
For every crappy example anyone on here can provide about THEIR experiences, there are a thousand people who can do the opposite.
The proof is in the empirical data...not in your one or two examples. I've seen two, three, four, and five blade broadheads have L O U S Y blood trails.
Brian may have been so close there was no spinning involved...I am anxious to see whether the S cut appears in the exit wound or not.
I've seen a Simmons two blade safari open a deer like it had a zipper on its side...everything fell out of that deer, and it died in 30 yards. Biggest awful mess I've ever seen other than a coyote pack-killed doe.
I've seen a hog have to be shot with five Snuffers to kill it. That proves nothing about the Snuffer per se.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
I've seen a hog have to be shot with five Snuffers to kill it. That proves nothing about the Snuffer per se.
Says a lot about the hog though!
Again, congrats on the deer.
It IS difficult, if not impossible to argue the success of a wide two blade head, like a Delta or Magnus 1.
SOMETHING strange must have happened to prevent blood from hitting the ground.
If we are not carefull, we might learn something.
At that close of range I would not be suprised at a lack of penetration on any animal. The arrow doesn't have the time or distance to get the kinetic energy it needs plus the arrow is still in paradox so it wouldn't hit straight on like it would after the arrow has went through paradox.
I use both heads a lot! I've had great blood with both and crappy blood with both. One kill doesn't say anything!!!! If you would of had 10 kills before with a griz. you wouldn't of batted an eye. JMHO
I guess I'll chime in here.....for what it's worth.
1. N of 1 trials mean little to nothing.
2. Surgeons don't use single bevel scalpels because they don't cut straight (exactly why Dr. A likes single bevel and why a chisel digs deeper into the wood the more you push if you don't know what you're doing)...I don't like crooked surgery scars.
3. I have far less experience than the vast majority of any of you on this board but when I go to track an animal I don't just look on the ground for blood, I look on all the foliage at a height approximate to where I thought I hit the animal because I know that's where the blood's coming from....I look on the ground for tracks.
Glad to see you got the deer. Enjoy the venison.
homebru
Congrats on the shot and recovery.
I shot a few arrows with Ray, and noticed the reverse pressure of the single bevel as I pulled his arrow from the target.
I know they twist hard and will be curious to see the results.
All that said, I have had a squirrel stop a 510 grain arrow from @15 feet.
The animals movement can stop or change trajectory fast enough to stop an arrow dead! The 'rat' was skewered on my 28" GT, and it had a shaving sharp Montec 125 (3 blades) with 100 grn brass insert.
I think we underestimate our quarry from time to time.
And to me, that is what's great about this stuff; we can never know everything !
Brian, congrats on recovering your deer.
Brian stated a number of facts pertaining to this recent event and you can take what you want from his experiences. He has expressed his opinions based upon first hand, direct knowledge. It never ceases to amaze me how others perceive the facts as presented implying did not actually happen the way as stated all the while being so far removed(thousands of miles)from the location of the actual event.
QuoteOriginally posted by 2-BIG:
At that close of range I would not be suprised at a lack of penetration on any animal. The arrow doesn't have the time or distance to get the kinetic energy it needs
I will have to disagree with that statement!!! Once that arrow leaves the bow it has reached it's maximum energy level. The farther it flies the less energy it will have as it sheds velocity.
Brian do not get discouraged by Rays views , he obviousely conciders Grizzlies to be the best and for him they are ,, it is still shot placemnent,, I have taken 65 whitetails with bow and to say everyone was perfect not! but I can tell you a good three blade leaves a better blood trail for me as I to have had trouble with 2 blade Broadheads ,, so it is whatever you prefer.. and yes I also agree with Ray on double Lung or heart shot deer do not go far( no 120 yds)
Well- its not going to be me that disses Ray !
I do assume that the hair on a hog is not as thick as on this deer- or on 'normal' winter coated deer( the deer I shot was a hybrid- a muledeer doe doe and a whitetail buck production). This might explain the really long and thick hair on it. Then again I have shot really long haired muledeer in the winter before- I have one doe mounted on my wall.
And Ray and his 'distance issue'. I heartly agree that 120 is possible. I ~stepped off~ 171 yards. I do not have a range finder.
The penetration issue; I think- was due to the action of the spinning head through the tough muscle of the heart. Speculation; but I have shot another deer and an elk this year with this bow and had pass throughs- different broadheads; but I know what the bow is capable of.
No doubt though- it was a double lung heart shot!
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008204.jpg)
this is where I took the shot from. Just imagine a deer there and drawing back where the arrow is pointing ( different grizzly head on this arrow in photo)
this is where the deer was standing when it was hit.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008207.jpg)
not much blood !
I took that picture when it was getting dark...
here are two photos of the only blood I could find:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008250.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008247-1.jpg)
Yeah- not a lot of blood!
Here is a spot the deer walked over; I found the deer; and walked back to this spot; because I really felt there should be blood here somewhere-
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008246.jpg)
there was none- and look its white snow!
this is where it fell.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008214.jpg)
and this is the entrance side- (http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008218.jpg)
the arrow hit right above the elbow- right where I aimed ( that works sometimes for me)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008226.jpg)
:thumbsup:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008217.jpg)
this is the entrance hole- with the hair pushed away-
and this is the entrance wound from inside:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008239.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008231.jpg)
this is the coagulated blood from the chest cavity
this is what was still left in the chest; you can see the exit wound too- to the right of my fingers ..between the ribs
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008242.jpg)
this is a closer up of the exit wound from the outside- notice how the hair covers the exit hole. I think this is why the deer did not bleed outside the body.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008233.jpg)
the metatarsal glands are different on hybrids; but the tail is a giveaway.
muledeer have a rope type tail; with bristles not hair on it.
these pictures show the black hair and long silky hair on the tail; taken from the whitetail sire.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008224.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008223-1.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008243.jpg)
I have pictures showing both sides of the lungs were sliced; and the heart.. well its hit low but hit hard.
this is a view I am putting here because people do ask about deer anatomy; and this is a view of the deer on its back; showing heart/lung and then the gut area.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/gundogsnbows/deer2-2008/deer2-2008227.jpg)
Brian, one thing I will say. You could not have walked up and stuck the arrow in that deer any better in my book. I bet with a wide sharp Mag 1, you would have walked around the blood to keep from getting your boots messed up. BILL
Thanks for the post and all the effort you put to the photo's (from the guy with a son and his family in Pocatello!).I killed my first deer with a W.W. last year from a tree stand at about 3 yards fom my stand. Took out major heart arteries and double lung, "above middle entrance" with a low exit. Might have had a pass threw but hit opposite leg on exit. Sorry no photo's. Great blood trail. Found the doe 50 steps from where I hit her. Just one experiience though.
Glad you found your deer.
Thanks for posting all the photo`s. (I MUST learn how to do that)
That is a shot I would call low in the "Pocket".
I would not expect that deer to get very far, and I would EXPECT to see a five star bloodtrail.
She IS a hairy deer, and it looks to me that in addition to the other traits a hybrid has, they have a bigger chest for the size of the deer.
I wonder if they are able to reproduce, or are they sterile.
I had this happen one time on a bull elk, almost the exact same shot only reverse the angle. My buddy shot it and kept telling me that it was heart shot. there was no blood, none, had hair and a couple of drops on the ground.
Bull was down 60 yds away and we found him by tracking also.
The shot hit both lungs and the heart.
Do you think that a trama to the heart sometimes stops it dead? It's the only answer I have come up with. The heart stops and so does blood flow except for gravity.
Good shot and great recovery!!
Mike
I have had expeeriences with close range shots and heart shots as well. I shot a small buck once at a distance of 3 yards on the ground. I was shooting a 67# longbow, chundoo shafts with Hunters Heads. The arrow did not pass thru but I got both lungs and no blood trail. Next morning I found the deer but was surprised by the angle the shaft entered/exited (I did get an exit wound). What I surmised was that the arrow was still in paradox when it hit the animal and that is why it did not zip thru the deer....it hadn't straightened out yet.
I killed a 10 point whiteail several years ago and a moose last year with heart shots. Both were shot with multiblade heads...the whitetail with a Phantom and the moose with a Razorcap. Neither animal left a blood trail. Both went down in sight....the buck about 40 yards and the moose after 3 steps. I did some research and surmised that the best explanation for the lack of a blood trail was due to the fact that when the heart is damaged like that it simply stops working. In other words no pump to push the blood out. Hit an artery leaving the heart and blood will be everywhere.
Ray: I shot an 8 pointer the same year I shot the 10 mentioned above. I got both lungs with a four blade Phantom. The arrow hit the off shoulder so I had no exit wound. There was good blood until the arrow fell out. The deer went over 400 yards. I would agree with you that double lung deer do not go far but this one is an exception and I am at a loss to explain the reason Here's a link to the buck where I found him. The wound you see is the entrance and the arrow was angled foward....a perfect double lung shot, extremely sharp bh......go figure?????
http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Arrowworks/?action=view¤t=eightpointbuck05.jpg
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Do you think that a trama to the heart sometimes stops it dead? It's the only answer I have come up with. The heart stops and so does blood flow except for gravity.
Good shot and great recovery!!
Mike
Great thought Mike. Not sure if you're right or not but, if there was little blood on the ground and the pics show far less in the body cavity than I'd have expected, then where did all the blood go... or did it not go anywhere as you suggested?
Ron
Shapster: I can't say it for the moose because we had to skin and quarter it to get it out....but the ten pointer I heart shot seemed to have a lot more blood drain out when I got it home and hung it up than other deer I have shot. Last week I made a poor shot that defelcted and hit the deer in the juglar vein/ carotid artery. The blood trail was immense although very short. When I got it home to hang it there was very little blood to drain out....almost none and barely a few smudges in the bed of my truck. My best guess on heart shot animals is that the blood stops pumping, the animal looses blood pressure and oxygen to the brain, it collapses and dies and the blood remaining in the animal simply stays in the veins, arteries and capillaries until gravity does its work.
I wonder if a large hole in the heart prevents the heart from having the suction (pressure differential) to push blood into the arteries and pull it from the veins. The heart still probably pumps, but can't move any blood. The body uses up all the oxygen in the arteries and then dies.
Jason
Hey Bill,
How ya been? I think you and I posted within a couple seconds of each other the first time. I think that both you and Mike may be on to something here.
Brian says no blood trail and I certainly believe him, but his pics of the body cavity show very little internal bleeding either. So where did it go. I think you're probably right, there was no blood trail because there was no blood pressure after taking out the heart.
Ron
I think there's more to teh story than that..fellas.
Look at the pictures where Brian found blood on the grass..and look where teh deer fell.
Its all tall brown grass.
If a deer is running full tilt, blood will be coming out and going out to the sides and that is why its smeared along the grass blades. In that type cover there won't be a lot of blood on the ground.
At the end of a 120 yard run, with those kinds of wounds, you probably are not getting a lot of blood anyway at the end. Running full tilt often produces a misty haze of blood...the deer could be pumping blood out its mouth too, in a fine mist.
I cannot tell from the photos whether there was the S cut or not...just cant see them well enough with these old eyes...but I think there's plenty of blood that came out, you just won't see it on the ground because of all the ground cover int he form of brown grass and weeds.
The blood didn't disappear...if there's none left in the body, it had to go somewhere. My guess is its all over that grass and if you walked in there with blue food coloring dyed hydrogen peroxide and spray it in a mist on that grass, you'd see blue foam everywhere!
blue food dye in the peroxide eh? I gotta try that!
The ground in the grasses was broken snow; but honest; I spent a lot of time looking for the tiniest bit of blood. In fact I found where a cat killed a mouse. Not denying the peroxide would have showed some more blood; I really got down on my knees where I did find blood; and between where I did; and looked hard for any tiny trace of blood. Didn't see any.
From my experience the heart shots cause a big shock to the animal; and they run fast - hard - and back and forth -and without a general escape plan - so you have to think outside the box a bit on finding them.
I was really shocked to see yards of undisturbed snow with not a single drop to be seen - with the deers tracks leading right through it.
The blood clot I took a picture of was probably in the 1/2 gallon size- I took it from the chest cavity; and the other pictures show the blood in the body cavity. Thats where the blood was- in the deer- not leaking out.
The head did cut; the way it twisted in and out made a flap that closed up; and the hair was soaked with blood. The blood I found on the grasses was wiped on as the deer passed by.
I think the hair and the wound kept the blood from leaving the body; there was a lot of blood in its chest cavity! And this was not a whopper of a deer. I feel certain that this would not have happened with a summer coat on the deer.
As far as the hybrid status; there were attempts to breed whitetails with mulies to get bigger racks. In captivity the hybrids were not 'thrifty' and died and the attempt to use hybrids in a breeding program: was abandoned.
Whitetails live on riverbottoms as we know; and so do mulie does. Mulie bucks stay up high; and come down for the breeding season.
The difference in the breeding; is that whitetails will chase does coming into heat for miles and miles; and does will not stand until they are really into estrus.
The mulies does are an easier catch; they will only run a short ways; and are a dream date for the whitetail bucks-- and the whitetails are here: before the mulie bucks come down.
As we know - whitetails reaction to danger is to run off in long stretched out bounds; and then go into cover- and put their tails down to see if they are being followed. Its an instinctive trait.
The mulies have a habit of trotting off; and they 'stot' - when they go fast; they leave the ground and all four feet come together in bounding. They will normally go to a place in the open- like the edge of a ridge: and look back to see if they are being followed.
The hybrids get a mixed message on what to do when threatened. Part of their brain says to run with their tail up- and legs stretched out in flight; and part says to stot; and sometimes they just freeze up in a confused state. A lot of hybrid bucks meet their maker at that point.
The hybrids ~can~ be sterile; but the big problem is that they are not good survivors. And they eat availible food in competition for the other deer.
There chests are rounder; and the meat is really really good.
Ray there was a slight but noticable 'S' in the cuts- most noticeable in the entrance and exit wounds. that is what kind of forced the wound together; that and the long hair soaked; and matted; keeping the entrance and exit holes even less likely to allow blood out.
My fear is the same thing happens with thickly coated bear hair.....
Lesson is though - that a deer can go a ways hit well; and not leave much sign- and knowing that I hope: will keep our fellow bowhunters heart full of hope; and confidence; and lead to less loss of game. I know I got to a point where I was really frustrated- had I not total confidence in my shot; my efforts to find the deer might have weakened. I thought this would be a good learning lesson for others.
Only two things that come to mide here. Tuning..you say it was a very close shot. If your arrow wasn't flying perfect (maybe release..??) they it might have entered and then had to straighten out again..dunno.
I like wide broadheads. Mine are 1.5" wide and i think they leave an excellent entry and exit hole.
Main thing is that you recovered her.
just my thoughts.
Jer Bear
under those conditions my hat is off to you, many would have NOT recovered that deer, Brian.
Very odd.
On the other hand, I have only shot a handful of deer in OH and IN..and even they didnt have hair like that deer did. Thats the longest deer hair I have ever seen. I bet she wasn't cold!
congrats on the deer and good job shootin and findin her! I also am not a big griz fan but its not through experience as I have never used them, so my opinion on that is useless, I just like a bigger head ie zwickey delta/magnus 1, killed a bunch of critters with the zwickeys. blood trails vary greatly, depends on what ya hit. and a deer running full tilt leaves a pretty good gap between drops sometimes.. I also think that paradox played a big role in the lack of a pass through on that close of a shot. again good job.. you did your part!