I'm thinking about getting some Forgewood shafts.
Does anyone here have experience using them?
What are your opinions of them as a hunting arrow?
I suppose the reasons for wanting them are their weight and durability.
I found a dozen that I have made into arrows w/ 160gr. tips. They are made of hemlock. I would like to try some of the old POC forgewood if I could find some. These shafts are heavy and strong. I think at 20yds and closer they would be great. They weigh 800grs. with the tip, fletching and nock. They are about 200grs. heavier than the carbons I usually shoot or 215grs. heavier than the POC shafts I shoot. Being heavier they drop about 5" lower than the others at 20yds. But the impact has authority! Where are you getting these? If you don't mind me asking. What wood are they made of?
I've been looking on this website. http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/
It only lists shafts made of Hemlock though.
That business is for sale and has been for almost 5 years now. Also states on the first page that "Has no inventory." so don't look for buying any of these shafts anytime soon. Prices listed are from early 2000.
Tom,
They are no longer in business,have not been made in about 10-12 years, for the Alaskan Forgewoods,much longer than that for the Sweetland forgewoods which were the original made with POC.
Danny
That's disappointing.
So who's gonna volunteer to buy the business and start making these shafts again?
Tom you can find them on the Internet from time to time; but it is very hit and miss, and you can expect to pay 7-10 dollars and more per raw shaft.
Thanks Bjorn.
I don't have enough interest in them to warrant paying 200+ Australian dollars a dozen.
So what's a good alternative? I want the strength they offer mainly.
Ashby talks about the hardwood shafts breaking on 3% of the oblique shots as opposed to 30-odd% for carbon and aluminium (don't remember the exact figures).
However, looking at Raptor they have the Hammerhead shafts which look very inticing.
Tom,
Ipe is a very good shaft, heavy and strong.
Danny
Is this wood the same as Ironwood?
Tom,
Ipe is Brazilian Walnut. Like Danny said heavy and strong plus some heavy spines too. Iron wood grows around here where I live. Hard, dense stuff. I'm sure someone has made shafts out of it but I've never run across any. dino
Thanks Dino.
I've had a search but can't find anyone who might sell it in dowell form.
I've emailed a couple of dealers.
I have gone to footed shafting with the foot left extra long-more strength and weight forward. I am getting them from raptorarchery.com
Tom,
Contact Hickory Creek Arrows.They are a sponser on here listed in the links up top. That is where I got my ipe shafts, 75# spine and 5/16 diameter.
Danny
Thanks Danny.
I 'm interested in a small diametre too.
QuoteOriginally posted by Danny Rowan:
Tom,
Contact Hickory Creek Arrows.They are a sponser on here listed in the links up top. That is where I got my ipe shafts, 75# spine and 5/16 diameter.
Danny
The site says not taking orders at this time.
When I spoke with Steve last he had 14,000 shafts of hemlock forgewoods...he was going to sell them with the machinery. Be a shame to have them just sit around. As I recall any wood other than POC will have a tendency to regain it's orginal dimesions unless sealed. Whereas POC has a natural glue that once processed into forgewood shafts stays there. So as time goes by I am worried about the condition of these hemlock shafts...
Thanks alot snag, I'll try to contact him.
If he has that many and they're gonna just reform a couple of dozen slung my way can't hurt.
Tom,
Bill Bonzar at Allegany Mountain Arrow Woods sells Ipe shafts. dino
Tom one thought would be to maybe keep an eye open for 2-3 Bill Sweetland forgewoods you can try out.Bill's are the real deal POC and as snag mentioned they will not swell in wet conditions.Sweetlands forgewoods are also pretty near as straight as you could get a wooden arrow.bowdoc
Tom,
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=61;t=007005
Thanks all. Allegany looks the goods to me.
Maybe laminated birch would be the way to go.
i just ordered a dozen victorian ash shafts. Anyone here have experience with that hardwood?
Mike I replied to your ad.
I've got some shafts that you might be interested in.
i live just down the street from the old forgewood shop and i have been trying to convince a furniture making longbow shooting omish family to pick it up, I belive it is right down their alley. maybe we will see them again
Is the machinery steam-powered?
I should say they are not omish but menanite, so im prety shure they use any kind of power.
So what would people recommend for an EFOC-suitable shaft that can come in heavy spine-range but remain smallish diametre? I'm shooting 23%FOC now and wouldn't really like to go down too much. Up is fine.
Oh and toughness is a MUST!
QuoteOriginally posted by jrchambers:
I should say they are not omish but menanite, so im prety shure they use any kind of power.
Well, get convincin' it would be a terrible thing to waste. :biglaugh:
I don't think getting the machinery is the problem.Thats just a matter of money..Getting the POC is.They are not allowing logging of any POC right now.The native americans did let some companies come onto thier land and remove only the stumps and what tree's were already on the ground.The Japanies brokers bought it at auction for a price way higher then anyone could afford to pay for it as arrow matirals.No other wood works as well...bowdoc
Interesting.
So who's gonna volunteer to plant a POC plantation?
I was told there was another problem in production of Forgewoods, that the process used formaldehyde which is now considered a serious environmental hazard and tightly controlled.
The owner of the machinery (I investigated when he advertised it for sale) told me the shafts he has are seconds.
I think the AD carbon arrows are good candidates for your HFOC and toughness.
The Coquille Tribe is not allowing any stumpage to be removed. The Nat.Forest has ONLY 200 acres of possible POC arrow wood quality trees left! Forget POC as a source for the forgewood shafts. If you look at the cost of the machinery and the likelihood of having to use hemlock or some other "less than desired" wood the forgewood process is a thing of the past... IMHO.
Well said snag,well said.bowdoc
Doc, that was hard for me to give up on that dream! I really wanted to keep alive this part of archery history. But sometimes things just aren't like we would like them to be.
snag - I'm with you on this one. I followed the same path as you, although I believe you followed it a bit further. It sounds like we came to the same conlusion. I wish it weren't so and keep hoping that someone in a better situation than me can make it happen at the right time.....but that time may have passed.
Do you recall seeing the list of "lesser than desired" woods that were actually considered and/or tested in the machinery?
Thanks guys.
Maybe I'll investigate some local woods that are gonna pack a huge punch.
So is the US gov. doing anything about increasing its POC supplies? Is it a candidate for plantation realistically?
And yes, the AD Hammerheads are looking more and more attractive each day. I just need to get through the few dozen woods I have left and then the Heritage 350s I've just started using.
I been shooting Sweetlands for a long time and I kind of do not use them as everyday hunting arrows but rather use them on special hunts like bear hunting.I always take the forgewoods along then.They work good for me and the extra weight of the shaft really helps to quiet your bow not to mention the better penatration from the extra weight as well.bd
Well considering they're NLA I'd think using them on special occasions fitting.
So did people buy several dozens knowing they were going to become extinct?
Tom:
The real problem is POC only grows in two very small regions of the world. The SW corner of Oregon/ NW corner of California and on the Island of Formosa (Japan). The Japanese have been very smart in this entire venture, they have not touched the wood on Formosa, only used ours and willing to pay way more than us. Yes you could probably do a plantation, however can you wait 200 years to harvest the wood?
Before Bill Sweetland past away he tried to have POC declared "Endangered" and was not successful that would have slowed down the usage and prevented exporting of the wood to Japan. Such is life.
Bob
They experimented with sitka spruce, yellow cedar, mtn. hemlock, and Alaskan poplar. The hemlock proved to prove the straightest shafts and best flight characteristics. But POC is still far and away the best for this process. It has that naturally occurring glue (lingdon) that whan compressed under heat makes a bond that is stable.
Lignin: an amorphous polymer related to cellulose that provides rigidity and together with cellulose forms the woody cell walls of plants and the cementing material between them... Websters.
Lignin comprises about 25% of woods composition (all species not just POC)...Bruce Hoadley, wood products professor, University of Connecticut. And doctorate of wood technology from Yale.
Sweetlands deciding factor to use POC for his process was spine weight to mass weight ratio...Personal conversation with Sweetland himself, 1990 ish.
So this Lignin could be artificially created or replaced by another chemical?
The Alaskan Hemlock that Alaskan Forgewoods used is a very good arrow shaft, problem was that the attention to detail that occured under Bill was not there for the Alaskan business,lot of inferiour shafts got to market. As long as you used the top notch shafts very good, the seconds and others not very good. I shoot the Alaskans and have never had a problem with the top notch shafts, problem is when you find them on that auction site you have no idea of the grade so you might pay over a hundred bucks for a doz shafts to find out they are not the best grade and therefore not good arrow material.
As for them swelling up, not a problem if sealed, even the Sweetlands will swell up if moisture gets to them and once they swell they are useless.
Danny
I'll keep an eye out on the site.
Sealing has always been, in my mind, a given when using any wood outdoors or that would be in contact with moisture and even dirt.
Most woods will swell to a certain extent when they get moist anyway without sealing.
Lignin's exact chemical nature is extremely complex and not fully understood, principally because isolating it from wood changes it chemically.....Hoadley
"Understanding wood", The Taunton Press, box 335, Newtown Connecticut, 06470
Snag,
Did they try fir? I have always liked fir as an arrow and it is available.
God Bless,
Paul
TTT
Bill at Alhegany Mountain can help you. Depending on what spine you are looking for I would try Ipe, Hickory, or Purple Heart. All 3 will make a very heavy and strong arrow. Joseph
This thread got me thinking back some. Last night I dug out an old video and watched it again. It's called "the history of the compressed cedar arrow". Bill did a little presentation at a Traditional Archers of Oregon banquet one year, around 1987. Larry Jones of Wilderness Sound Productions filmed it and together with Dave Doran of Archery Past they put the video together. I'm sure Dave still has copies if anybody is interested.
I highly recommend it to anyone that has any curiosity concerning Bill Sweetland and/or his process of the original compressed cedar shaft. A wealth of knowledge, plus if you know who to look for you get a glimps of Jim Brackenbury of Brackenbury Bows before he passed away and a young Norm Johnson of Blacktail Bows (before he was even building them I believe).
stump
That sounds very interesting.
I've only just discovered Forgewoods but I'm very keen to learn more and even to get hold of some.
Did you ever shoot them Stump man?
yes
stump
QuoteOriginally posted by stump man:
yes
stump
And how were they????? :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
Down in SE Alaska the Western hemlock and Sitka Spruce are the predominant trees.
On the Kenai Peninsula I have seen Mountain Hemlock and the larger spruce species is some hybrid called Kitz Spruce (I may have misspelled that!) which is, I think, a Sitka/White/Black spruce hybrid. Lots of black spruce on the west of the peninsula but they are small and scrubby.
We don't have Doulas Fir up here.
As Joseph says, Bill at Allegheny Mt can make you some very nice hardwood shafts in 5/16 at heavy spine and physical weight. I recently got some 5/16 hickories spined at 80-85# and weighing about 650-680 grains raw. That pretty easily will get you into the 800 grain arrow range.
However, you will not be able to get much more than 12-15% FOC, unless you can find a 300 grain glue on point. Keep in mind, too, that hardwoods don't recover from parallax as quickly as softwoods like cedar so one usually needs to overspine with hardwoods. Adding a lot of weight to the front calls for even more spine. The short of it is that there is a limit as to how much one can front load wood. Wood, regardless of the type, just doesn't exist in spines high enough to handle extreme front loading for modern bows with fast flite strings in the 60-65# and up category.
I agree with bowdoc, Stumpman and Bjorn re the Sweetlands. They're about as straight as wood can get. And the small diameter, heavy physical weight and heavy spine as well makes them something special. I've managed to find a few over the years. I, too, use them only for hunting, but I do use them, so when they're gone, they're gone.
Oh yeah, my buddy made some purple heart shafts in his shaftshooter that are thin diameter and heavy. I have shot one a bit and it past the test.
I think I have about a dozen of the AK made ones left and 4 of the old Sweetland's. I won't use the Sweetlands and don't shoot the AK ones much anymore. I credit them with an elk and kudu that a lighter shaft may not have killed. They are just too heavy for most of my open country hunting.
I really like the Forgewoods (Sweetland) they do quiet a bow and work well for treestand hunting were closer shots happen.
I have searched for quite a few years for them and have about 3-1/2 doz.I do use them for special occasion hunts & not stump shooting etc.I have owned the Sweetland video very very informative,BUT be fore warned Mr.Sweetland can talk you to sleep in his video !!!
Tom: Sorry...kinda spaced out there for six months or so i guess, grew up in the 60's & 70's you understand, ha!. THEY WERE THE BEST OF THE BEST OF COURSE(forgewoods, not the era)!!! Bill was my good friend and he taught me a lot. Some of the shafts I currently make (and i'm sure bill would agree) rival with the forgewoods of past without having to go thru the meticulous process he invented.
Joesph and Steve H. Hits it on the head and identify's a lot of the characteristics as being species specific. IPE, Hickory and Purple heart can give mass along with small diameter and tuffness or rupture strength...both of which are highley desirable among today's archers. Bill's process built these two favorable characteristics into an arrow shaft using a species that just didn't/doesn't have it under normal circumstances, POC!!. He just stuffed a whole lota wood into a very small package to get there type of thing...and he got it!!. Recall if I may (off the top of my head here, I may be wrong) but under normal pressure visualize the knock end of your arrow to be 5/8" thick and the point end to be 1 1/4" thick. He squished this whole mass into a 5/16", 21/64" or 11/32" frame work to get what he wanted as a spine wt./mass wt. ratio. Keep in mind, yesteryears archers didn't like a heavy mass weight in their arrows like they do nowday's. 500gr's was a heavy arrow (finished) back in the 50's-60's. Another reason he used POC! it was light mass weight and he could do this process without getting TO heavy. With other species he quickley got to heavy in mass weight(ie doug-fir or any of the hardwoods). One of his biggest problems was getting so heavy(mass wt) archers didn't want them. It boiled down to PERCENTAGE OF COMPRESSION which was about 60% of total capability with the hydrualics that he had((with POC). If he went more than 60% they became to heavy(mass wt)than archers of the day would purchase.
FOC!! Forgewoods had a built in FOC (front of center)mass weight, which todays archer has become obsessed with (my opinion). recall if you will, knock end was 5/8" point end was 1 1/4" before compression. Bill's objective to adding the mass weight up front was to reduce the breakage behind the point that was a common occurance with the POC! At the time he developed this process he was a professor at Berkely University in California teaching archery classes. Breakage behind the point was his main concern, as it is today with POC that has not unergone his process.! This fact hasn't changed in 60 years!..No Wooden arrow shaft of modern manufacturing(doesn't matter the species) will ever obtain the FOC mass weight capabilities the old forgewoods did, and remain within the shaft footprint, without using bill's process(again my opinion).
FOC vs.Balance: With today's variety's of alternate species avilable in shaft material we don't need to build up the mass behind the point to prevent breakage behind the point like they did back in the 60's -70's with POC. We can simply select a different species and get both mass and rupture strength from our decission. ie hickory, IPE, Fir, purple heart.etc.etc..
Paradox recovery: I assume we all know the definition of paradox recovery. If not research it, figure it out and come back. Bill used POC because it was the shaft material of his day and was one of the best for quickness of paradox recovery even after it had been compressed.... Especially after it had been compressed with the built in FOC!!... So they say, "softwoods recover from paradox quicker than the hardwoods"...I believe this to be true but have no experience personally with the hardwoods, so I refrain to commint further other than to ask those that have experimented with both and may know more than myself such as Fred Asbell, Marv Cochran, Dave Doran, Wes Wallace, Norm Johnson, Ted Fry,etc .
Orion: Give me an addy & spine wt. You prefer(static)
Steve: What kinda shaft you get that Muskox with?
LKH: good to see you still out there. Vern's still giving everybody a bad time ( thats good).
So sorry for the length, kinda got carried away.
stump
Stump: I was just goina mention, check out my two going on three play-by-play hunt threads going on right now. One to start in 5 minutes. Three critters (actually 4, but didn't mention one goat) and more action to come using SA-Douglas Fir! ; ^ )
Just would like to know??? The company has been for sale for 10-12 yrs.??? How much is he asking for it??? Are we talking a small business I can run out of a large 2 car garadge or is it factory size???
String Cutter last time I knew around $90,000.00 I thought. Wood source is the big factor. My buddy Fletcher on here had some 20+ year old forgewood arrows and he spin tested them on his spinner and they spun perfect like an aluminum. I was in awe. Flint
I would like to start a part time gig until I retire in afew years... that's kinda steap for what I'm looking for?? But again I don't know what machinery and such that includes?? But i guess it's nice to dream sometimes??
The Sweetland Forgewoods really are some amazing shafts.
It was mentioned earlier that the POC originals don't swell, but I'll beg to differ. I have one that is puffed up like a toad. :eek: Funny thing, they swell up oval, due to the way the boards are compressed.
I personaly have shot several critters with Sweetland forgewoods from elk to black bear sized game and for my money you will never ever find a better wooden arrow then a Bill Sweetland forgewood.They were well ahead of their time.
Rick they only swell if they have no finish on them and have to get fairly wet before swelling.One other thing that makes them oval shaped is I was shooting one into a piece of plywood and the compression of going through the plywood really ovaled the first 3 inches of the shaft.
Even if a guy had Bill's equ.you can not get the POC at all and if you were to find some the cost of the arrows would be way to high.They are great shafts if you can ever find a few to try.bowdoc
I always shot them, bought all my Forgewood Battleshafts from the Kittredge Bow Hut. My favorites were the full length dipped ones in Sky or Baby blue with white feathers. I took many animals with these arrows. I still have ONE left...was thinking about using it this fall on deer....If Forgewoods were still around, I would still be shooting them.
Joe my buddy has a full set of original matched battleshafts and I have tried many times over the years to get them off him but he will not give them up.Sweetlands are just super good arrows.bd
I have probably six doz. of the battleshafts forgewoods made by the guy in alaska before he closed down. They are straight as can be 5/16 and most with a 175 grain head are in the 800-850 grain area I have only broken one in all the years shooting them and that was in a car engine.
My bad- measured weight of some yesterday that I got from I think Danny Rowan with 175 grain head they were 1000 grain area.
Really nice heads for close range hunting.
1000 gns might have penetrated the car engine-better luck next time :bigsmyl:
At the end of Steve's operation in Alaska he was using hemlock to make shafts into Forgewood shafts. The best wood for this process is Port Orford Cedar because of the natural glue-like compound in it. Under pressure and heat that substance binds the wood fiber together and it won't expand or try to obtain it's original shape. Whereas, with hemlock and other woods it will try and expand back. So, with Hemlock you should make arrows out it unless you have a dry environment for them. It is extremely hard to find "arrow quality" POC today. When I spoke with a Forest Service employee about obtaining POC for making arrows he told me there is only about 200 acres left in Oregon. Of that a much smaller percentage is of arrow quality. Then you have to figure in waste from the process....not a good scenario for recapturing an investment in machinery and time and effort....just my opinion.
I know of a man who says he has dozens of the old POC Forgewoods...I also asked if he would consider putting me in his will!!! :biglaugh:
Yeah Dave,
I know of a man in Oregon who supposedly has a room full of them. I was able to contact him once to see if he would sell any. He said he would never sell them and he does not shoot them. Shame, I know some people collect them but they were made to be shot. If they were still made I would not be shooting carbons. I have a couple of sets of six each stashed I am saving for special hunts.
Danny
I'm with you on this Danny. They were meant to be shot. I have one dozen that I have made into arrows. They are ready for the task at hand! Hopefully a juicy elk!
Very difficult finding forgewoods.I have a dozend always looking for 100# plus. I know that wont find. Marlonb