Trad Gang

I stalked and shot a nice buck the other day.  :D   While skinning last nite my finger stopped on something that didnt feel right.  :(  ( lesson,  wear gloves   :knothead:  ) Upon inspection we found a 100 grain  thunderhead broadhead /8 inches of aluminum arrow inside the deer. The arrow had passed into the backstrap,went under the spine and came out just under the other side and barely broke the hide.  :eek:    The deer was just starting to get infected  :mad:   Its amazing that he showed no signs of being hurt. When i shot him he was sparing with another buck.  I have pics on my phone and will try to figure out how to get them into my email and post. The void... its for real.Even though this deer was shot with a different weapon, i think this can benefit all of us. Hopefully this wont get deleted

I shot one with a thunderhead and 3 inches of arrow in its neck. No signs of injury on the hove though. They are amazing animals

Suggestion, please take no offense.
I suggest you keep this sort of info off the internet.
The antis collect this info and use it against bow hunters every chance they get.
We all know it happens from time to time, but let's not give the antis any "ammo".

A friend of mine that we camp next to at Compton has two different rib cages taken from deer that have arrows completely through them.  The arrows are completely calcified so the deer obviously lived at least a year after being shot.  I would have never believed it if I hadn't seen it.  I have a picture of one of them.  You can clearly see the nock of the arrow above the rib cage and the calcified arrow going through the chest cavity below the spine and out mid body on the other side.  Amazing animals indeed!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010128.jpg)

John, you and I were posting at the same time.  You do make a good point - I'll let the mods decide if this should be pulled or not.  I think it is good for bowhunters to know, but certainly understand your concerns.  Thanks!

No void - just the rare but real case of a deer surviving a high hit. Also you gave the vertical spot of the shoot, but not where it was horizontaly.

Steve

John
I dont want this to turn into a debate. Just some helful info for bowhunters.

Sorry.  Deer was hit 6 inches behind shoulder blade.  If it didnt hit the spine,artery or lung or any thing in between  and had 2 holes i call it a void. I talked with a dog tracking service and he also believes there is a "void" in that area. Wouldnt have believed it until i saw it.

Probably still hit the lungs just on the outter lobes, where the least amount of 02 absorption takes place, that and most likely did not create a big enough hole to cause a pneumothorax, so the archer most likly hit lungs just not enough.

Whip
By the way that 64# t/d i got from you was the fastest bow that i have ever seen. I never should have sold it. Another Trad member here chronoed it against alot of other bows. The results were not even close. If i remember right all thing being equal it was 15-20 fps faster. Sorry went off topic.

I think the pic is fine, good reminder on where "not" to shoot one.

I also think "void" is a myth.  Too many deer are hit high or in the liver and people say "void."  I think better education of anatomy and physiology would put it to rest.

I agree, it does not exist...what does exist is the whitetails amazing ability to recover!  Their was a very interesting article in Deer & Deer Hunting awhile back about the properties of deer blood, very interesting read.

6" behind shoulder blade and below the spine means it hit either liver, lungs or both.
Simply demonstrates what Trapperdave said - the deers ability to recover.

Steve

I remember many years ago Pete Shepley of PSE bows was reported to have shot an elk thru both lungs and never recovered it or the arrow. The next season a gun hunter shot the elk and the arrow was apparently in the same state as the arrow in the pic above. Most of us who have been at this a while have made shots and not recovered animals the "should" have gone right down. The real "void" is our lack of ability to fully understand how much things happen.

Well said Bill.

I don't know if there is a void or not, but I do believe that people use broadheads that are not sharp enough to start with and get dulled even more so that they only push things aside when they go through instead of cutting. Add to that the deer's amazing ability to heal and you get what we have seen.
D-

Its allways a very interesting subject and incredable storys and impresses me every time.

I killed a buck a week ago that had an arrow in him pretty much just like you described.However it was just and I mean just behind that membrain wall what ever it is that keeps the lungs/heart seperated from the rest of the inards.It's almost centered on the body cavity which is about 6" behind the shoulder blade.Deflection could make it worse or better I don't buy the void idea if your in the lung area it just ain't there.....

Not everything is exactly as we think either...the deer WILL move at the shot and arrows do deflect of ribs to some degree...I've had it happen with a 12guage slug it can and does happen.

The so called void is behind the lung area above the stomach and intestion keep them in tight up front and low since it'll hit higher than expected when the deer reacts

Now here is a dumb question I'm sure, but a biology major I'm not.    

How exactly do lungs work anyway?  I know when I dress out an animal the lungs are "deflated" and there is a lot of empty space when I reach into the chest cavity.  So are the lungs like a balloon and fill up that space?  And when they inhale the diaphram pushes against the other organs?

Anybody have a layman's explaination of how this stuff works?   :confused:

I wondered too,during exhale,don't the lungs shrink and not completely fill the chest cavity?

yes they fill the space, the size of the space/lungs is dependant on movement of the diaphram.

That's kind of what I thought Dave.  It couldn't work to have the lungs expand and contract without something else taking up the space.

Yes, the lungs fill the space and expand and contract with the movement of the diaphragm and the rib cage. A well placed broad head will cause the"pneumothorax" phenomenon in which the lungs collapse because the diaphragm and rib cage movement causes air to be sucked through the arrow holes and the balloon of the lungs deflates. This causes unconsciousness quickly from lack of oxygen to the brain.

I think this is a good thread and a good discussion that may help someone to make a humane harvest.  I personally don't believe in the void, but I still try to avoid it.  I don't want to become a believer.  If that makes sense.

One thing though, referring to an earlier post about this thread being fuel for the antis.

Who the heck cares?  They are after hunting in general and I quite frankly am tired of being sympathetic to their views.  They will attack our heritage no matter what we do or do not openly discuss.  I personally will not give into the PC of things.

Sorry to rant.

I agree with Bard about dull broadheads being a big part of this very discussion.  I firmly know there is NO VOID.  No space below the spine and above the lungs-period, end of story.  However, we as hunters don't give the whitetail credit during some marginal hits.  With the speed that things happen during our shots, doubt seeps in with each passing moment during a less than optimal shot condition.  These animals are built for survival, and can live with the top of a lung or both lungs cut.  Many stories abound with pics like the one above.  Give credit to the critter, and speak less about how the shot looked perfect- "but musta hit the void".....

Think of the chest cavity as a vacuum.  There is negative pressure, if you pierce it then air rushes in.  Consequentially the lung will deflate as it cannot function outside of the vacuum.  Just like a baloon.  Like was stated, it is called a pnuemothorax - medically speaking.  Now there are multiple lobes to the lung so this doesn't always affect the entire lung or there may only be partial deflation if the wound can close.  Compare this with the fact that many times people survive with only one lung and usually completely recover from a pnuemothorax if treated.  Not trying to be overly technical but when you see things from this standpoint it is easier to understand why it is critical to use sufficiently adequate equipment and take shots that produce (hopefully) a double lung hit.

TrapperDave,Shaun and Jedimaster,thanks for the info.This is a great thread,an important one.     So if only one lung is hit does the other one ever deflate or does it stay inflated.Does a one lung hit depend more on blood loss then,to get the job done?

The facts are that deer can be hit and live.  Obviously any time this happens, by definition, the hit was non-lethal.  It was not necessarily because of a dull broadhead or an irresponsible shot.  I don't see that it matters if some people call it a void or not.  Everyone strives for a perfect center punch double lung or heart shot but it does not always happen.

I'm thinking when deer do that wind up drop jump boing thing the insides are sloshing around to some degree and voids could occur.  Same thing my insides use to do when riding helicopters in the service or that feeling of stuff moving around in you when on a roller coaster.  That whole things at rest tend to stay that way and things in motion tend to keep motioning.  Shooting a deer on alert certainly has some interesting results!!

I have been looking at some deer anatomy pics. Seems there is some room for an arrow to pass thru and  "avoid"( sounds better), anything lethal. Above the diaphram , and behind the lungs??

The lungs fill up the chest cavity,that's why the chest heaves while breathing.....

Diaphragm runs top to bottom and curves forward...there's no way for an arrow to be above it really...and if you're behind the lungs, you're behind the diaphragm too and not in the chest cavity at all.....

still don't see any proof of "the void"

I believe there is no " void in the chest" If you hit the chest cavity, you will hit the lungs or heart. That said, I also believe that due to differences in the physiology of different deer, it is sometimes possible to shoot a deer below the spine, and not hit the chest cavity, rare, but possible. No void!!!

I am just not going to believe in any 'study' or 'conclusion' about the effectiveness of a specific arrow --- without proof of the sharpness of the broadhead.

When the native americans were using metal heads; and making them rapidly; I think they too had problems with sharpness. I read the records of a medical doctor from the 'Indian wars'; where one guy was hit with 18 arrows in the chest- in one battle: and did not die.
Every soldier shot in the gut with an arrow: died from the injury.

Arrows kill by making oxygenated blood NOT reach the brain. When lungs are hit; the ability of the lungs to supply oxygen to the brain goes down. With heart shots; if you hit an artery (which carry oxygenated blood from the heart)the animal will die faster than when a vein ( which carries blood into the heart)is hit.

There is a possibility that an arrow can either hit the lung and ~not~ cause it to bleed and continue to bleed ( a dull head can impede the continued bleeding of a wound).

Hair can be pushed into a wound.. heck lots can happen.

As a person who has 'processed' game meat; I have only found one arrow; and that had a broadhead on it. I have the scapula from that elk; if anyone wants to surmise why the arrow missed lungs..let me know.

I have talked to a lot of other processors; and arrows and broadheads are a rare thing; compared to round balls from muzzleloaders; and high powered rifle bullets - and even .22 rounds.

So much depends on sharpness; so much on if the animal has just finished drinking; if it is pushed after the hit; if the arrow hit something on the way to the animal ( hitting branches will dull a head); and the fitness of the particular animal. Too; if the animal has an escape route; and uses it; and lays down on the wound entrance- that could apply direct preasure and stop bleeding.

We all have hit animals -and have had them die quickly and humanely on a regular consistant basis; and that is my goal. Not wounding.

I believe sharp heads; and accurate shots produce high percentages - ~overwhelming percentages~ of quick kills.

There are exceptions to every expected outcome; do a search on 'mike the rooster' and see what a chicken can live through !

QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
TrapperDave,Shaun and Jedimaster,thanks for the info.This is a great thread,an important one.     So if only one lung is hit does the other one ever deflate or does it stay inflated.Does a one lung hit depend more on blood loss then,to get the job done?

Two things are going on, blood in the lung space from the one hit, and either air pressure loss or if the hole to the outside gets plugged, then it's called a tention pnumothorax. Meaning air and/or blood from the from the injured builds in the chest sqeezing out the space for the other lung to expand. Tecnically if it's blood it a hemopnemothorax. In the ER shows you'll see them putting in a chest tube to drain blood and relieve that pressure. Just like with people, with damage to only one lung it can be fatal or survivable.

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/292686

Heres a link with multiple 3d views..

I read once about a big road killed buck that had three slug wounds AND an arrow wound completely healed over! A Chevy finished him off though!

-Charlie

never underestimate the clotting abilities of deer blood...it FAR surpasses our own.