Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: wingnut on November 20, 2008, 08:56:00 AM
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After reading a few threads about shot selection and thread bare bloodtrails, I thought I'd ask the question about selecting the shot to produce an exit hole.
We all look at shots as to where they enter. Heck we burn a hole in that spot. But do we see where it will exit and if it will produce the trail we need?
From a treestand the shots are down hill and produce a wound path from up on the near side to down on the far. If the arrow doesn't produce the exit, the chest cavity will retain the blood until it reaches the entry hole. Sometimes this never happens and we end up following nothing and hope to find the animal.
I had a hunting partner that liked to hunt elk from a treestand. He shot two huge bulls each at 8 yds from the tree. Both were hit mortally and neither left a blood trail. The reason was no exit wound because of poor penetration.
We have touted a broadside shot and a 1/4 away shot. Heck I have promoted 'shoot the far shoulder' for years. I realized recently that the far shoulder stops the penetration and prevents an exit wound.
Now I have decided to look through the animal and go for high probablility exit shots.
I can't remember ever loosing an animal with two holes, but have tracked quite a few to no end with one.
What do you think?
Mike
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You make a great point Mike. That is one of the reasons that I think broadside is the best shot angle. Other than ribs there is nothing else to inhibit penetration and the width of the body cavity is at its minimum with a broadside shot. In other words, the broadhead has to travel through less of the body before it is sticking out the other side. Worst case of course is a shot at a deer facing away or sharply quartering. (Won't even discuss frontal shots) In those cases the arrow has to pass through an aweful lot before finding air on the other side.
I still take quartering away, but do sure prefer broadside.
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I think nothing is more deadly than a double lung shot with an exit hole.
Right straight thru the side.
Not only a blood trail - but TWO blood trails that normally don't last more than 50 yards.
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I agree with you both. Broadside is best for pass-thru penetration and gives you the best opportunity at both lungs.
Lots of angles will kill 'em, but if you don't find them, you should feel like ****.
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Mike, good observations and question. Would 2 holes in the wrong or less optimum spot be better then 1 in the best spot? I've seen elk hit as you say with no pass through calmly walk 30 yards and keel over. I've taken deer hard quartering with entries in back of ribs/gut and exit in front of opposite shoulder that left little to no blood trail and the animal travel 150 yards. Lots of variables....I do think folks take too many shot angles they shouldn't, especially on elk. Quartering away reduces the odds of pass throughs...Tree stand angles reduce the odds of pass throughs. Add those to possibly less then optimum tune, broadhead selection, light/low performing bows, our goof ups...and trouble shows itself. :) ....O.L.
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This is another reason I believe in heavy bows and heavy arrows. I shot my deer at 15 yds. this year broadside but right at impact it jerked it's far shoulder back and I ended up cutting off the top of the knuckle bone before exiting. I was using a 70# Bear T.D. with cedars and 200 gr. Ace heads. Even when things look good at realease there's a ton of stuff that can happen before actual impact. Your point is a good one because we should really be concentrating on the exit spot when we're shooting just like you said.
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Agreed, whatever you have to do to make two holes a high probability. Might be shot selection or changing your setup to a heavier lbs and/or heavier arrow.
I shoot a very heavy slim carbon arrow, very rarely I have an arrow that doesn't make two holes. Given that, I worry less about shot placement.
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Yes. Broadside, ground level, two holes is ideal.
I like the idea of visualizing the exit point and not aiming for the opposite shoulder, maybe just behind it for broadside or in front of it for quartering away. On deer the lung area is large and just behind the shoulder exit would work on slight quartering away, not on hogs a with smaller boiler room.
Good arrow flight is very important and most overlooked. It is hard to describe good arrow flight, but I know it when I see it.
I have been having good luck with 55+ lbs and big Ace this season - and good arrow flight.
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Excellent topic Mike. :thumbsup:
I agree with all of the above... As hunters we're not just concerned with killing, we need to recover the animals that we shoot. Most of us would prefer to miss cleanly than kill an animal but not be able to recover it.
The moment that we find our quarry dead is the emotional high point of any hunt and one of the highest "highs" that we can ever experience... Unlike the moment we realise that we have wounded or killed an animal but have lost it for good, which is the lowest of "lows".
Shot placement, shot selection, and pass through penetration all play critical roles in determining the outcome.
I have come to the point where I only take broadside or very slightly quartering shots because the heart is too small of a target and because we need to take BOTH lungs AND have an exit hole in order to limit the distance that an animal is capable of traveling after the shot, and to ensure that there is a lot of blood to follow.
The other critically important aspect of recovery and heavy blood trails is the importance of an extremely sharp broadhead... no matter how many blades it may have. Even though I'm a devout two blade guy, I'll take a razor sharp three or four blade head over an "iffy sharp" two blade every time, and vice versa.
I read somewhere that a double lung hit animal can only live for 90 seconds. Well, on a dead run they can sure cover alot of ground in that time! Even animals hit perfectly can be lost if there's not enough blood to follow them.
So for me...
Broadside double lung hit + sharp broadhead + full penetration = Steak and eggs.
Ron
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This topic seems to come up and then fade away in cycles covering decades:)
Harry Elburg has made it known that he prefered to hunt deer while stalking from the ground using a flatbow and a backquiver. He has noted that his all-time favorite shot on a whitetail deer, for reasons of stealth, is: "My favorite shot on deer is from the rear quatering into the front. I aim right behind the last rib and for the far shoulder. That shot also allows you to make your move without the deer seeing you."-Elburg
His quest for an off side exit became the mother of his invention, the Grizzly. This was quite a number of years ago into the last century. During that time Elburg often stressed the importance of an off-side exit, especially for tree stand hunters who required a low exit. "You want your broadhead to go in one side and out the other, especially if you are shooting out of a tree stand. Because if you don't have a bottom exit wound you will often lose game. You really need that blood trail coming out the bottom."-Elburg
Over the years, some may have gone the route of Elburg and selected tackle to increase the odds of an off side exit, some may have gone the route of limiting shots to increase odds that off side bone will not come into play, some have chosen to include both. Regardless the route chosen, I think it is good that the topic was again brought up in this thread, as ALL of us should strive for an exit wound:)
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Wingnut, Thats some pritty good think'n for a wingnut,LOL.
Most of my kills have been from the ground, a few from a tree, I always want an exit and I get one about 80-90% of the time.
I believe an exit increases your odds of recovery dramatically.
Some would say, they like the arrow to stay in the animal to cut it up while it runs away, I have seen no evidence of this cutting up effect.
The only time I have see this is when the arrow is stuck in a leg and the leg is going back and forth on the broadhead.
I have never seen a set of lungs cut up by a broadhead that was in the chest cavity other than the initial shot ( I believe this is an old wives tell) you can take a knife or broadhead and sandwich the blade in your hand, move it around all you want, you'll never cut your self, until you slide across the blade.
With Doctor Ashby's study and EFOC I have cooked up even better arrows than I had, now I'm looking for 100% passthroughs regardless of what I hit.
Of course I want broadside double lung, but that don't always happen.
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even with a great hit and exit, the animal is going to live and go for 60 seconds or so. Sometimes you get lucky like OL said and the elk just keeps feeding til it tumps over. Most times it does a "death run" and covers a much ground as it can til it goes down. How far can a man run in 60 seconds? 400 yds, 500? Well think about how far a deer can go.
You need something to follow.
Mike
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I posted this on the thread titled " favorite spots to hit them" on the powwow..11/16/08
The best place to hit game changes with each different view. Aim for where you want the arrow to EXIT the critter. Broadside, as has been said above, is the safest angle.
Lungs are what you aim for- an arrow shot animal only hit in the heart can and often does travel a long way with a blown up heart- typically a lot further than with punctured lungs.
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I also think many do not understand deer anatomy. The lung/kill zone on a 220# field dressed buck is no bigger than my open hand- 6" x 6".
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Question from the less-experienced:
Would a high level treestand (vertical measurement) require a longer shot distance (horizontal measurement) in order to get both lungs and an exit? I guess this is a geometry question: how high on the near lung can you hit and still expect to hit the far lung?
I've always kept my stands low because I didn't feel comfortable shooting at a deer too far from my tree but a high stand would seem to require it. We also don't have a lot of real tall trees around here. :knothead:
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In my opinion, very high stands are difficult to maintain a good shot angle from with traditional equipment. Besides I don't get along with high things well. I set my stands at 12 ft. in trees that provide good cover and we get lots of oppurtunities.
Mike
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Well...
I don't even know if I am really qualified to comment. My experience hardly compares to guys who shoot 5+ deer year in year out. Here in Oregon its tough to shoot 2 animals a year so we are limited.
I believe the following to be true, your mileage may vary:
A high double lung on an elk results in a dead elk with no blood trail. Generally good for a mad dash for 70-80 yards.
When an arrow falls out of a critter blood trails ALWAYS greatly decrease in volumn or disappear entirely.
I have never seen a blood trail improve after the arrow falls out. Any one had a different experience?
Several years ago my brother shot a bear just before dark and the arrow hit the off shoulder. After giving him enough time we trailed that bear until three in the morning. Found him with arrow still in him; opened him up and could clearly see where the Snuffer did in fact do considerable interior damage. I am convinced that the arrow kept the wound open and the blood flowing allowing us to make the recovery.
Blood trailing in the dark in that thick cover was LOT more excitement than I wanted. Talk about the heebie jeebies, I was puckered up for several days!
I called in a bull for a friend who promptly shot him in the liver(complete pass thru) with a two blade head. I watched the bull jump a fence about 100+ yards away. I marked the spot very carefully knowing there would be blood on one side or the other. NO BLOOD on either side. Went back, found all three pieces of the arrow. Late that day we found the bull where he bedded down, little to no blood. I have not used a two blade head since that incident. I remember thinking how I wished the arrow was still in him.
So, I am not so sure that a complere pass thru is the "be all and end all" that most subscribe to.
Again, your mielage may vary.
Most of my experience is based on elk taken from the ground.
Bob
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Brett,
Heck man most guys say 90 sec. My personal experience and that of Rusty is that most are still alive in 45-50 sec. I've killed a lot of bear with a bow and some on video. The death moan is sometimes two minutes after the shot.(no misplacement, no BH failure) They may only be 50 yds away but it took that long to go out. I've watched elk doublelunged with a pass through stay up for a couple of minutes before going over. Most of those didn't go far but were on there feet.
Brett,
We need to come shoot your deer, they die quick.
Mike
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I get a lot of flack from guys when I go to a 3d shoot because of this topic. I have never, never shot in a tournament of just for fun to hit the 8,10,12 ring on a 3-d target. I always shoot for shot placement, and look real close to the angle of the shot to see just what I would have taken out with the shot. For the most part, there is not a target out there that a 10-14 ring will give you the best or in some cases even an ethical shot. Why practice for a perfect score, when in fact you perfect score shooting would only be bad shots on a animal. Look at the angles on some of your shots. Perfect 10 ring shots......woulded of very very hard to find animals.
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I typically end up with arrow on both sides of the animal and few pass thrus. All of my kills are stalking on the ground, and 2 kills in low treestands-6-8 feet off the ground.
It has always seemed to me that it would be difficult to make a double lung shot from a 16+ foot stand if the animal is closer than 50 feet.
The angle is pretty tight.
I'll work for a shot broadside, on the ground and not more than 20 yards.
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Well this is not a debate over what is anatomically possible but rather a discussion over the need and placement of exit wounds. Sharp broadheads and correct shotplacement are no brainers. What I am trying to emphasize is that in order to have a high recovery rate you need an exit wound.
Everyone has an animal that just fell over in a few seconds. That's great!! Heck I've had my share too. My buddy and I shot two elk out of the same herd and watched them both go down in under 30 seconds each. Both had exit wounds and were double lungs with collapsed lungs.
That is not the problem. The question is what are you going to do when you have no exit wound and are 250 yds on a sketchy bloodtrail? Also had this happen and have had professional guide tell me that if they go 200 yds they won't be found. I told him to "go #$%@ himself" and recovered my animal 200 additional yards with a high double lung hit.
Mike
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Originally posted by wingnut:
What I am trying to emphasize is that in order to have a high recovery rate you need an exit wound.
:readit: :thumbsup:
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Hmmmm - brain must be hypoxic for around 45 seconds to produce unconsciousness. Death occurs in white-tailed deer at about 35% loss of their blood volume. white-tailed deer blood volume is about 8% of their body weight. a deer's heart is big for their weight at about 0.9% of body weight. on a mature 120# Texas white-tailed deer with a aorta cut would take over 1 minute till it was clinical dead. that is assuming it was clearing all the blood from it's chest cavity. that doesn't happend that I have ever seen.
from a physological stand point there is no cause of death in 7 seconds from a bilateral pneumothorax caused by an arrow ?????????
rusty
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Rusty,
Deer are real "shocky". I think a lot of them just pass out from the shock and die while sleeping.
Mike
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I totally agree with the exit wound. if cavity is congested with blood it reduces the pressure graditent enough that some blood flow can be maintained for a while even if major vessel cut.
yep that is why we give 20 minutes before we follow up :)
good thread.
rusty
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I have never understood the quarteribg away "is the best" shot.
A little to each side and you hit guts/hip or hard shoulder bone.
Shootem broadside....dead even of the lungs....if you miss right or left you still hit liver or lung.
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Rusty,
Agreed. The number I have most frequently heard for death from bi-lateral pneumothorax is 90 seconds, and again, any animal on a dead run can cover one heck of a distance in that time. If the animal is not pumping out blood the whole time it can still be lost. So it still comes down to a well placed, razor sharp (not moderately sharp) broadhead, coupled with a pass through double lung shot that makes recovery of the animal much more likely.
Brett, I had a similar experience many years ago. Bullseyed the paunch on a nice buck with an insanlely sharp Snuffer. The arrow went through him so fast he didn't know what happened. He jumped and looked around like "what the heck" and then stood perfectly still for forty five minutes before his front legs buckled and he went down. Like your doe, there was an ocean of blood inside the body cavity but not one drop on the ground where he stood for so long. I have absolutely no doubt that if he had run off, I would never have recoverd him.
There's a case of a crazy sharp broadhead getting a full pass through but poor shot placement was the missing factor that could have easily resulted in a dead, but lost deer.
Ron
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Brett,
I agree (on elk)6-7 seconds and they are down with a double lung. And yes I think it helps to have two holes too create a faster collapse.
I also think you are right about two blade heads...sometimes they just don't seem to know they have been hit...just stand there and fall over.
With a three blade head that has never been the case for me. They really burn up the real estate.
But I still prefer the 3 blade head.
Here is Oregon it sometimes rains a little bit and I want to get every drop of blood on the ground just as quickly as I possibly can.
Rusty,
Nice to "see" you. I have no reason to doubt the scientific data. I do have to wonder how long they live after they fall down :)
Once I shot a smallish four point mule deer right through his heart. He made it about 40, perhaps 50 yards and was down...maybe 3-4 seconds. Never had a solid double lunger been on their feet for more than 6-8 seconds.
Bob
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Hey Wingnut, good thread! Last year I shot two does with a Bear Razorhead with bleederblades. The first one I hit a little far back and I got the liver. Total passtru. Trailed her approx. 100 to 150 yards. Great bloodtrail. When I got to her, the wounds looked like she had been shot with a square shotgun slug. I was glad I was using a 4 blade broadhead. Made tracking her a standup job. Shot another mammy later on with the same set-up. The arrow didn't make it out the other side. I hardly found any blood at all. The only reason I was able to find her in the reedmash was because I "stumbled" up on her. I like multiblade bhs on marginal hits but if they don't produce an exit wound, ya don't find blood. Just my experience. Lots more folk on Tradgand with more experience than me seem to be in agreement that what produces a good bloodtrail is what the broadhead cuts (shot placement and sharpness) and if there is an exit wound. The single bevel broadheads are reported to have superior penetration and make "S" shaped exit wounds which "should" give better bloodtrails that standard double bevel 2 blades broadheads. Could this be "the best of both worlds"? Lots of folks think so. Can't answer that one for myself. I haven't shot one yet with a single bevel with matching fletching. Maybe some folks that do have experience with the single bevel bhs. would like to report what they have seen.
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I guess one question from the doctors/vet's is how much blood loss or what mechanism drops/puts a deer/animal on the ground versus complete "clinical brain death"? I'm guessing my lung/heart arrowed deer average 80-90 yards, maybe. My first buck with longbow last year, strong quartering away shot laced from almost the back of the ribs to in front of the off leg about where the hair turns white. He was stumbling inside 20 yards and down in 40. High/back of both lungs on a doe, ran like crazy over 200 yards. Middle of both lungs on a doe - didn't know she was hit and sauntered down the hill nibbling for 70 or so yards. Amazing difference -
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yes true, maybe down in 7 seconds but I don't think ya should approach them yet. I saw a fight between a bowhunter and a 65# doe. bowhunter was not winning till ran in and hit her with a ax.
rusty
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Having had my share of good and bad blood trails(defined as lot's of blood and little to no blood) with both gun and bow and helping others with their trailing I feel I can come to a few conclusions.
I think the big issue you are trying to bring up, Mike, is whether an exit wound is neccessarily better for recovering hit game and whether it would be better to take a "less lethal"/"slower acting" shot in hopes of producing a better blood trail to follow up.
I don't think there is any question that two holes will leak more blood than one and that two holes should be desired. However, the placement of these two holes is critical in the amount of blood spoor produced in my experience.
Broadside double-lung complete penetration does not guarantee good blood trails. Generally speaking, higher holes leak less than lower ones. This is one advantage to achieving an exit hole when shooting from a treestand...a low exit hole to drain blood from.
Take a ground level broadside shot for instance. Whether it is a high lung shot or low lung makes a difference. Internal bleeding(hemmhoraging) will occur in both of these instances and the life expectancy of the animal would be comparable, yet more spoor will be left for the hunter on the lower shot. I find it more desireable to shoot lower than have an exit hole neccessarily.
Much of the discussion thus far has dealt with whitetail deer and elk who's vital organs are fairly accessible. Broadside behind the shoulder shots are efficient means of dispatching them. However, when we consider game such as hogs and many African species who's vitals are placed further forward in the chest, exit holes are not always expected. In these cases marginal shots taken to ensure exit wounds would be irresponsible, in my opinion. It would be better to get a broadhead in the vitals with only one entry for the quick death of the animal. Would you rather risk missing the vitals by aiming a bit further back, or aim right in them whether you get an exit or not?
Another thing to consider. Deer blood coagulates awefully quickly clogging holes on not-so-expired animals. This brings to question the role of an arrow staying in the animal vs. complete pass through. I can tell you from experience that no deer I have seen shot with the arrow still in it has stayed calm. They take off like a bat outta %$#@! This most certainly will lengthen trails. An arrow still in the animal without an exit may be doing some slicing especially when running through brush, etc. However, consider this: If you get stabbed in the leg with a knife you aren't supposed to pull it out. If you do, you will bleed much more than if you left it in and got attention at the ER. It could mean life or death. Why is that? Blood coagulation, natures mechanism to stop cuts from killing us! The knife is aiding this process by lessening the degree to which the blood will need to coagulate to stop the bleeding. Now, I understand that deer don't remain still(far from it) till the arrow is taken out, but this removal will result in more external bleeding. An arrow could be doing the same in both entry and exit wounds if left there.
We as hunters try to minimize the variability by taking "high percentage" shots and using razor-sharp broadhead tipped tuned arrows out of proper bows, yet that variability is still there. That animal may move, that cut path could swirve in the animal, a rib might be hit. Frankly, that is part of what makes hunting so much fun...the unexpected. Good topic Mike! Matt
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Originally posted by trashwood:
Hmmmm - brain must be hypoxic for around 45 seconds to produce unconsciousness. Death occurs in white-tailed deer at about 35% loss of their blood volume. white-tailed deer blood volume is about 8% of their body weight. a deer's heart is big for their weight at about 0.9% of body weight. on a mature 120# Texas white-tailed deer with a aorta cut would take over 1 minute till it was clinical dead. that is assuming it was clearing all the blood from it's chest cavity. that doesn't happend that I have ever seen.
from a physological stand point there is no cause of death in 7 seconds from a bilateral pneumothorax caused by an arrow ?????????
rusty
On a completely calm deer that didn't know it was hit, this is many times the case...it takes them a bit to die. Their adrenaline isn't up(ie. heart rate not raised). However, running deer are a different story. A running deer's heart rate would cause it to go into shock more quickly from the loss of blood as more blood would be pouring into/out of the wound, generally. Try holding your breath when sitting on a couch, then when running laps;)
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When I lived in Michigan; 'Michigan Bowhunters' did a survey of all deer shot; as to range; and place of the hit.
Deer that were double lunged seemed to go about 60 yards; heart shot deer went about 180. I don't remember other stats; but I do remember that statistically; the longer the shot was; the longer the blood trail.
I shot a buck once that was hot on a doe; and even after the heart shot; he ran to the doe; mounted her and fell over dead.
I have shot deer on several occasions that were hit through the lungs; with zwickey 2 blades that didn't hit any ribs- between; but no cuts on the ribs themselves.
Me thinks that the hitting of bone causes a shock more than not hitting bone; because I have had deer double lunged with no rib damage; kick their back legs on impact; and then continue to feed ! They fell over dead shortly thereafter; but seemed not to realize anything was wrong until they got dizzy and fell over.
Bears were timed once; they can cover 40 yards in 2.5 seconds from a standstill - fast enough to catch up to a passing horse and catch it- from a standstill.
Bears that are double lunged ussually run about 40 yards or less; and that puts them in the less than 3 seconds and drop category.
Deer seem to have a built in extra kick of adrenaline; and hit bone; and they will run hard and fast.
I have known people shot in the lung with a bow; and they felt intial shock and pain; but it immediately subsided ( like when I was stabbed with a stilletto in the chest).
Now an eye socket hit; or leg muscle hit; and people say: after a bit it really hurt.
I have hit deer - just a nick on the leg; and walked them to where they get a blood or air clot that kills them... but I had to push them constantly ( open country hunting where you can see them with a binocular a long ways off).
I want a pass through - they do leak blood better; and a good blood trail is always a good thing.
Over everything is the absolute need for sharp broadheads. Arguing shots without factoring in the sharpness of the head is kinda worthless data. IMHO
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Great thread!
Matt brought up a good point that I hadn't applied to bowhunting. Medical experts always recommend leaving any sharp object in the body rather than pulling it out until you can reach medical attention. Complete pass through is going to speed up the blood loss for sure.
My albeit limited experience is that when I don't get complete pass through the broadhead is sticking out the other side with the arrow in the middle. That only clogs up the hole and continues to irritate the animal perhaps pushing them on to further distances.
Complete pass through with a quiet bow usually leads to an animal that just stands around trying to find the source of the danger. Usually they die within sight.
Double lung shots also give you a lot more room for error. Heart shots can become leg or brisket shots within a few inches. Certainly hogs and javi's are a different animal literally and figuratively.
The treestands issue is a dilemma I struggle with mentally. Low stands make for easier shots but higher treestand help with wind and with visualization. When sitting stands that are 12 feet or under I always feel like the deer just look right at me and then I'm busted or they are on alert. Much more difficult to hit a deer where you intended when they are alerted.
Great thread and great food for thought. Thanks for all the input.
Chris
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Good point on getting that exit hole,where I hunt a couple of bounds and a whitetail can quickly be out of sight with out a blood trail to follow even a mortaly wounded deer can escape rather easily.
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I like the broadside shot or even a slight quartering towards me when in a tree stand, I have found that my arrow will exit easily when I hit the deer with a 10 to 12 yard shot high near the front shoulder and it goes back a ways and out the ribcage, that makes two nice holes and a blood trail that is followed at a fast walk.
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Good thread Mike. Very thought inspiring.
I get to track many many animals a year as an outfitter. The biggest problem I see after shot placement is penetration. I am amazed at how little penetration some hunters get. Lots of this is simply because of the "that's good enough" attitude toward broadhead sharpness and arrow flight. Penetration is by far the greatest killing tool we have as archers. Yea, an arrow will kill a deer with only 6" of penetration. Only problem is a very limited blood trail on an animal that is terrified by an arrow sticking out of him hitting everything he passes. Every time that arrow taps on something it sends the animal into a greater panic thus making him run away even faster leaking sparse blood from a hole plugged by an arrow shaft. Bad news!
A complete passthrough generally results in an animal not knowing what has just happened. I've seen many deer circle back around to see what has happened only to find hisself dead from blood loss at the point of impact. Hogs are the exception. Hogs won't return but they will run a short distance, start rooting and feeding calmly, then fall over dead. I try and visualize the best shot placement through the vidals that will result in a passthrough. Exit holes kill quick and clean if put through the goodies! Good hunting! CK
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
I shot a buck once that was hot on a doe; and even after the heart shot; he ran to the doe; mounted her and fell over dead.
Brian,
Now that's funny right there... Can't think of a better way to go out than that! :biglaugh:
Ron
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Over everything is the absolute need for sharp broadheads. Arguing shots without factoring in the sharpness of the head is kinda worthless data. IMHO
That is spot on and so important to the heart of this thread. Since we're talking bloodtrails and game recovery, we should probably address the age old question: "Which leaves better blood trails, 2 blade, 3 blade, or multi-blade broadheads"?
The answer never changes no matter how long we debate it...(and let's not highjack Mike's thread).
The answer will always be the sharpest broadhead.
Ron
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No doubt in my mind that the exit wound is the key. If the blood is not on the ground, but in the body cavity, the differculty in tracking and finding game is substanually increased. Also, I've hunted out of high tree stands in the past. Killed a nice doe from 25 to 30 feet up last year but you can bet it was because I had no other choice at that time. Don't like it and don't advise it. Shot angle makes arrow placement differcult at ranges I prefer with traditional equipment(15 to 18 yds. max).
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Thaught a few pics would be nice right about now... -Simon
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/novaln1975/TradGang/AnatomyDeerRight_HR.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/novaln1975/TradGang/AnatomyDeerLeft_HR.jpg)
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Years ago, I got caught up with the mentality that I want a big 3 blade hole in the side of the animal.
What I experienced was 10 times the reaction from the arrow broadhead combo by the animal, they ran farther and faster with way more panic.
Most of my kills fall over insight, less than 15 seconds on average, I'll even bump it up to 30 sec. to be safe, why?
I think it's two things,
#1 supper duper, no fakes, razor honed 2 blade.( I think some die just knowing this arrow/broadhead is coming and lie down. LOL just kidding) :goldtooth:
#2 the arrow passed through so fast, they have no clue they have been mortally wounded and just walk off or a short trot off.
The animal 1st passes out, because there blood pressure drops and there lungs have collapsed, so no blood or air is going to the brain.
They die, because they are having massive hemoraging while they are passed out.
I don't want the animal to even know it's been hit and go into panic mode.
The amount of blood on the ground, has way more to do with how sharp the head was, as it passed through, than how many blades there are.
Want to know how long you can go with out air?
Do 15-20 push ups, exhale all your air and run as fast as you can with out taking a breath, you wont make it to the 20 yard line ( make sure you do this on grass, because you is going to pass out) :biglaugh: PS. let us know how you do.
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Mike , getting back on the original question, I like Curtis prefer to have a complete pass through,
for both the animals I hunt as well as the bear hunters I guide , generally it has been my experience that there has been more blood with the pass through thus making it easier to find the animal, dont get me wrong , animals hit well in the lungs with the arrow in them do die and most of the time are found but there is less blood on the outside of the body cavity.
You cant beat a good pass through with the exit low in the body cavity, like pulling the drain plug from an oil pan
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I have always picked the shot for exits with gun or bow.I thought everyone did it that way. :confused:
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I think you have a good idea Mike. Low with 2 holes gives some great blood trails. I shot one this year high with 2 holes and even though it was full of blood, no blood trail. With some good help we recovered it.
The question is what shot opportunities will give you the exit hole with the equipment you're using. If one were to use a mechanical head it would be wise to only shoot broadside staying away from any medium to heavy bone. Same goes for a light arrow, low draw weight, or three blade head. The quartering away shot may still be a good opportunity with a heavy, sturdy arrow with a long, narrow, sturdy 2 blade broadhead.
Jason
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Mike,
My sincerest apology. Was not trying to hijack anything. Just expressing my opinion as to the best way to get an exit wound. Yes I did get off the subject a bit and for that I apologize. I will try to delete all previous posts.
Brett
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the general approach to the topic was excellent and the question driving the discussion is likeky one fo the most important question ti answer, i can not sya that I have recovered every deerf I;ve shot but I have know idea how a couple were not found dead due to the amount of bloodtheyu lost. I went seveal days in a row dee if I could discover their where abouts by the buzzard and or crows.
rusty
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i am starting to "rethink the use of my 2 blades. The following exit hole pictures are of bucks recently killed. The first is a liver hit buck. The shot was 6 yards out of a tree stand no more then 10 feet above the deer. The blood trail after 50 yards was non existent
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/3051992835_eba85b02b4.jpg)
This buck was jumped from his bed 10 hours after he was shot and then I had a better blood trail
Yesterdays buck was shot from three yards but from about 16 feet above him a very steep shot thru the near lung and out the bottom ..It was snowing , there was blood on the ground at the point of impact and then just flecks of blood for 300 yards. Granted it was snowing hard and had that not been occuring the trail would not have been so difficult, would a three blade have been better?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/3051990301_5c29cc9229.jpg)
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Well first of all congrats on the two bucks. The goal is afterall to kill and find them.
Second, I don't think the broadhead selection caused a poor bloodtrail. Possibly the shot execution was at fault. The first one with a liver hit and exiting that high, most of the blood will collect in the paunch and it's easy for the stomach to plug the hole. Paunch hits and near paunch hits are real tough. A bigger hole might have helped but probably not.
The second buck was at extreem angle down. A shot that looks very inviting but often results in a long trail. Your buck was classic with the single lung hit. The exit hole probably was the only reason you recovered him. Try to let em get out a little more decrease the angle and catch that second lung. The trail will be better and much shorter.
Mike
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Mike; great point to bring up ( no pun intended) . I can remember like it was yesterday, having that very discussion with Paul Schafer, during one of our conversations that very subject came up,Pass through are almost definitely a must and that when we aimed we both shot for the EXIT HOLE. That way if you had executed the shot correctly you knew before you tracked the organs that you had passed through. We both agreed that it had to be almost like billiards, where you call your shot ( in your mind) before you make it. The other thing we both did and i continue to do, is imaginary shots, for example if a dog or cat walks by I imagine shooting it , the draw , release , follow through . It really helps prepare you mentally for the moment of truth! Now I must add a disclaimer... that i am not nearly the hunter or shot that schafe was!! What a great Site the tradgang is!!!
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I'm not a fan of 2-blade heads, unless they're BIG - like Interceptor/Tree Shark big. 3-blade snuffer-type heads are good, but sometimes can hinder penetration. I think 2-blades with small bleeders (Stingers, etc) are the best of both worlds. Flight characteristics and nearly the penetration of a 2-blade, damage comparable to the 3-blades. For treestand hunters, I think the exit hole is far more important than the entry hole. The first deer I shot with a trad bow was a steep shot with a 2-blade head - I got the perfect "3-D" shot, but the broadhead got stopped by the offside shoulder. No blood trail, and the dogs brought the head and my arrow back a few weeks later.
My experience is limited, take it for what it's worth.
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This is a good thread.
Part of our success as bowhunters comes from experience. We learn through hard lessons what works and what does not.
My experience with big game is limited to a couple hogs, and whitetailed deer.
As many of you know, hogs can take alot of killing, especially the big ones. The hogs I have met, carried my arrows away, and remained on their feet MUCH longer than any Whitetail EVER could, given the same hit. I was AMAZED.
I now know, that if I had been using a broadhead that had steel hard enough to remain sharp after penetrating something as hard and thick as marine plywood, I am sure the bloodtrails would have been much shorter. My broadheads were scary when they went in, but when they came out, they were as dull as if I had been shooting them into sand all summer long. Hard lesson learned. Without my broadhead protruding, creating two holes, I am sure it would have been difficult to find my hogs.
Having many friends who bowhunt, I have gotten alot of experience tracking deer.
Through the years, I have noticed a few things.
I noticed that deer travel MUCH farther when the arrow remains in them. ALWAYS.
I have no idea exactly how many deer I have killed with an arrow, but I have never had one run just a short ways and stop, when the arrow remained in them.
Even without a pass-thru, two holes are always better than one. Two holes will certainly not decrease the amount of blood flow to the ground.
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I noticed that deer travel MUCH farther when the arrow remains in them. ALWAYS.
Yep, scared and running. Having 2 holes and the arrow sticking in the ground is by far the best scenario.
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I would think that the arrow staying inside the deer would cut/slice every step the animal took - and that's a good thing, right ?
I use to think double lunged animals would not, could not, run very far. That KS deer I shot this year stayed on his feet at least 2 minutes maybe 3-4 minutes ... and made it 250 yards and I had placed a 3 blade thunderhead through both lungs.
Note - I shot this buck very close to my stand, about 6 steps from the base of the tree, and I tore down through one lung, high ribs entry, exiting low ribs on opposite site. about 12 feet up in tree. Pieces of lung did clog the exit hole after the first 150 yards to where there was little blood to trail. He died in an open alfalfa bottom/field
In a CRP patch, standing corn, thick low brush, grown up field .... 250 yards of running without an exit hole and blood trail would have been an all day track I imagine.
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When we start talking 2 blade and blood trails, it always seems there is a question...and suggestion that 3 blade would be "better?"
Recently, in a conversation with Ron (Sharpster)I commented that in the past 4 or 5 deer kills w/ 2blade heads, I had either heard or seen the deer drop within 100 yards or less, but had ZERO blood trail...
...I also commented I'd read on this site and others in past years, that is the norm of 2 blades.
Ron made a comment and I immediately wrote to Ed Ashby to confirm...and he concurred with Ron.
They both suggested that perhaps... if I'm not getting a good blood trail with a pass through on a 2 blade head...that the head may have "gone in sharp, but come out dull!"
That opens up another whole can of worms...but seems that the 3 questions in the title are all tied together...
Broadhead sharpeness can be a factor in the penetration and the presence, or lack of an exit hole (passthrough) and whether or not there is a good or poor blood trail?!
I had been using a sharpening system that allowed me to get a very shaving sharp head...but it had a radical 20-degree bevel and it apparently dulled cutting through the deer...so that on exit, it wasn't making anywhere near the hemmoragic damage as when it was freshly going in!
Ed had a very technical description I won't murder by trying to restate...
Just that it appears to me that "Exit holes..penetration...and blood trails" are often inter-related and sometimes...sometimes...it's how sharp the bloody broadhead is coming OUT, not going in! :)
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If you're shooting at a very steep angle - and LITTLEBIGMAN both of yours were - just like my KS buck the issue wasn't the killing shot, but the exit hole, being much lower then the entry, filled with lung tissue, flesh etc and I shot mine with a 3 blade Thunderhead. After 75-100 yards there was little blood, and had he not died in an open field my tracking job would have been much longer.
The steepness of the shot matters I think, and maybe more so with a 2 blade but with 3 blades too. My KS buck literally had fist size piece of lung stopping up the exit hole
JMHO
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Good thread. I want holes on both sides. I don't have anywhere near the experience of many here, but double lung shots with exit holes have meant very short, very bloody trails for me. I have used Snuffers and Woodsman broadheads, both very sharp. A broadside, high lung shot with a snuffer left a trail with blood on both sides. It looked like stripes on a highway (4 lane)! About 30 yards!
A quartering on (slightly) mid-high, shot with a WW that entered just behind the shoulder and exited through a rib at about the diaphram low on the chest left a huge exit wound (1-1/2" x 3"). The arrow stayed in for about 30 yards before she broke the 8" with the fletching off. She went another 10 yards and expired. All this took well under 10 seconds (I heard her crash). The blood trail was impressive. Most of the blood was on the low, exit side. Ray Charles could have followed it!
Here is the entrance wound:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/2008%20Doe/11-09-08_0830.jpg)
My battery went dead before I could get pics of the exit wound :mad:
Anyway, Wingnut, put me down as a proponent of exit wounds.
I also agree with you on the "imagine the exit side before you shoot" concept. I like the broadside or quartering slightly on (I know this is not popular opinion).
Last year my cousin shot one in the classic quartering away (slight) shot. The WW severed the aorta from the top of the heart. The broadhead hit the off side leg and stuck. There was no blood trail, but she died in sight about 20 yards from the shot.
That's why I'm not wild about the quartering away shot. That and it's awful easy to hit the paunch that way. I think the meat is better if the paunch is intact, and I hunt for meat...not horns.
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Doc,
Interesting concept! I will be checking how sharp my heads are on exit from now on. We spend a great deal of time and effort getting them sharp for entry. Going to be a true judgement if they are sharp on exit.
I compare this to the other day when Rusty, Jason and I were at Gil's. Gil's grandson took his first buck that morning and his dad had it hung up and was skinning. He cut through the hair around both legs and proceeded. He was really struggling until I went over and handed him my Helle knife. The job went easy from there on. Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.
Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?
Mike
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a sharpening system that allowed me to get a very shaving sharp head...but it had a radical 20-degree bevel and it apparently dulled cutting through the deer...so that on exit, it wasn't making anywhere near the hemmoragic damage as when it was freshly going in!
I've always wondered about using/getting such a fine edge. It would be very susceptible to the edge rolling over. I guess a lot would have to do with the hardness of the steel but I would think a very sharp edge at a 25-30 angle would be a better choice.
Does anyone know what the angle of a three blade is? Like the WW or Snuffer. I'm guessing 30-33 degrees. If it is that's one of the reasons they are so hard to get them hair popping sharp.
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Originally posted by BradLantz:
..... but the exit hole, being much lower then the entry, filled with lung tissue, flesh etc ..... My KS buck literally had fist size piece of lung stopping up the exit hole
JMHO
Brad, with all do respect Sir, it was probably blood that had coagulated into a jello, the lungs don't come apart unless you slice a piece off the edge.
Not saying it couldn't happen, just not probable, if it's lung, when you squeeze it in your hand or fingers it wont come apart, if its coagulated blood it will squeeze out your hand like jello.
Congrats on your kill
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Kingwouldbe thats possible, sure looked like chunks of bright lungs to me though !
Another thought .... like black bears are known to not leave good bloodtrails because of their fat layers, some whitetails ( like the Kansas ones I chase every year ) can have an aweful lot of fat on them.
That could add to the problem of exit holes = good blood trailing couldn't it ?
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Originally posted by wingnut:
Doc,
Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.
Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?
Mike
Oh, mike...let me stop you right there! :) I'm the last person to give advice on sharpening.
My dear friend, Ed Schlief, AK Bowhunting got me started on the Redi-Edge...man I was proud...could whip a razor edge on BH's and my knives...
I have, like so many self-professed "sharpening impaired" people, a drawer full of dozens of systems that were to be the dead nuts best last thing ever needed! Uh-huh... :(
When I made the comment to Ron (Sharpster) that I seldom get a good blood trail (or any) from a 2blade... he lit right up! He shared some words and insights Ed Ashby found in his research on BH's, design, bevels, etc... and that it wasn't the 2 blade itself...but likely the BH not staying sharp on the way through...
Bottom line: Ed's later response to clarify, shared that often a fine edge like I was using..will dull just on the hair, or going through the meat...let alone if it touches a rib or the like...then part way through..it's pushing arteries and veins aside..or just partly cutting them..not slicing them clean open like it should...ergo...more clotting...less hemmoraging, less blood trail.
We all SHOULD know that blood platelets (those things causing blood to clot) like or need something to grab ahold of to start forming a clot...a rough cut clots faster than a clean one...and while it generates a lot of arguments, biology and medical research seems to support 100% that a smooth sharp edge forms a clean, smooth cut is harder to stop bleeding than any cut with ragged edges the plattlets can grab a hold of!
I suspect that my exit wounds had several inches of the last part of teh wound track that were poor cuts..clotted up heavily, and didn't drain out causing the wound to be clogged with clots, but the initial cutting path was sharp and sliced clean cuts that bled and the critter died in sight or earshot...so I found them. Lucky me!
There are always dozens of variables...those years, the deer had 4" of fat on them. I love using ribs...but they were so layered in fat...and so greasy...I stopped using them. So I figured the exit hole just clogged with fat...
Truth is they died quick... within 80-100 yards... and full up of blood in the thoraic cavity when I opened them...
And I have to re-sharpen my bh's every other day riding in the quiver... they just didn't STAY sharp!
As you suggest...some is the hardness of the steel (apparently that is why the Griz 160-190's are so hard to sharpen well...they harder'n the hinges of hell!)...but once sharp...they stay sharp. Ron's shared vignetts of trying to dull them on purpose on 6061 hard alum...and couldn't! :eek:
To answer your question by 3rd party: Ron and Ed claim that is exactly it...that some edges, the way they're done, just aren't very durable. When I researched my Redi-Edge and saw it was laying down a 20* bevel... things came clear.
My carpenter father always told me a chisel or tool with a fine edge would cut well..once...but a more steep angle would hold a "working" edge long time!
What I didn't know till I got conversing with Ron was that a steeper angle...CAN...can be shaving sharp.
Using his system...I now can get a 25, 27 or even a 30 degree bevel to shave hair that pops off like crazy! Getting that angle on a BH that is a laminated design like the Griz, STOS, etc...is a BEAR! Gringing or working through that liminated overlay till it's all gone and in that angle...that desired BEVEL is pure-T-hell!
Once it's done... oh, my! I went back and using diamond hones and KME knife sharpener...changed all the angles/bevels on all my knives...from the flimsy 20* Redi Edge...to a 27* durable edge and now they are all...ALL shaving sharp and seem to hold an edge a lot, lot longer...
NOt to say OTHER variables don't play in... and I'm sure there have been a lot of good scenarios shared already about "what ifs" and "I found that"... but to answer y our specific question, I'd refer you to Ron or Ed... but that is exactly what they told me...and I ended up being sooo convinced... I've had to do the bloody hard work to get BH bevels changed before I could carry them to the woods...
It's not fun...not changing that bevel on laminated heads... I hated it...but felt a lot more comfortable KNOWING that my head wasn't what I thought was sharp...but I now KNOW and TRUST that the head will be that sharp all the way through a critter...and not just on my arm hair before the shot...
Does that help? Sorry for so much rhetoric...but this being home job searching leaves me divest of human interaction so when I get a chance to share... :knothead: :banghead: :goldtooth:
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Very interesting thread. That last two does I've killed this season were with the same arrow. Glue on Woodsman on a 125gr steel adapter (Trad Lite shaft, 47# @29" bow). Both times, I got a pass through with the arrow sticking in the ground. Both times, I was amazed to see after brushing it off that the broadhead was still sharp enough to shoot at another deer. Of course I touched it up, but would not have had to worry about sending it through another "victim" as is. These are file sharpened, then touched up on emery cloth.
It is fascinating to see the variety of experiences we see from our various setups and conditions.
Daryl
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Great thread guys! This is the reason I come to Tradgang. :thumbsup:
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After running some hunts this year, and from 9 years of operating an urban deer hunting program I can promise you the single biggest factor in game not being recovered isn't shot placement- its a lack of sharpness in broadheads.
Don't fire back at me that YOUR broadheads are sharp....if they are, then I am telling you that you are in a minority.
Getting broadheads sharp is easy if you know how, and a pain in the arxxe if you don't..and a lot of people need our assistance in this effort.
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I've read this entire thread a couple of times. Great information. Thanks Mike.
Could this be summarized? :readit:
Assuming you hit both lungs:
1. Two holes are better than one.
2. Holes positioned low are better than high.
3. Deer with an arrow hanging out of it's side might be getting severe internal damage but he/she will run like crazy (I've experienced this one).
4. Deer that have received pass thru wounds may be startled but will probably run less if at all. (I've experienced this one too.)
5. Spend time sharpening your broadheads.
6. I haven't seen this posted but if given the opportunity shoot 'em with a second arrow. Four holes have to be better than two. :knothead:
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Could the reason be that many "Old Timers" prefered a filed edge over a honed edge was the hardness (or lack of it) of the steel in their broadheads? Several have stated that a honed edge would dull quickly on hair,mud-caked hide,etc. where a filed edge would still "grab" even after being shot through an animal. If your broadhead has "soft" steel in it, would a filed edge produce a better bloodtrail than a honed edge that has "rolled over"?
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SuperK...
First...Hooboy... I'm in over my head...but as I have been under special "tutelage" to learn to use a new sharpening "system" correctly...and to remove that maddening layer of extra steel on a laminated broad head...I've had an epiphany.
I was recently taught and found true that one shouldn't stop "working the coarse stone/diamond hone, or black wet 150 grit paper" until the blade edge will shave hair...or try really hard to do so... and that is at the COARSEST level!
I always figured if it got "close" at the coarse material stage...then it would get sharper with the finer grits/hones/stones. Wrong! :(
That amazed me. Using my previous mentors' suggestions of how to tell if something is sharp...I'd have thought I was at a "sharp" place with the roughest stone/hone/grit a few weeks back! Nope.
But alas, I'd not YET learned it should shave hair rght there so I spent a lot of time doing the next several levels of stone/hone/grit paper to get it "finished..."
Imagine my amazement when I knocked off that first rough "sharp feeling edge" only to find it wouldn't cut zippo!
I have this new insight..or theory for those who disagree, that indeed, that sense that a file sharpened head that seems all "catchy" and sharp enough to slice your eye, MAY indeed, not really be sharp!
Using the "cross the thumb skin" and over the fingernail techniques..it seemed way sharp...but when I knocked off that jagged edge..it wasn't close. Seems that "jagged" roughness makes it FEEL sharp...but at best..it's just "catchy sharp" for lack of a better term.
I have several friends, mentors and teachers of the arcane that have sworn a jagged edge feeling file-sharpened edge is sharper... only thing that made me ever know it wasn't the best edge for hunting is what I referenced above... MEDICAL RESEARCH.
Ragged cuts clot way quicker and we don't WANT clotting..we want hemorrhaging...and that comes from a slick, smooth razor sharp edge.
I know folks will make idols of me now and poke pins in it...cause it goes against a lot of "traditional" thinking. But dangnabbit..blood plattlets, clotting factor cells, they look for something to cling to so as to form a clot...any rough edge cut will clot faster than a smooth slice! Which is why our cholesterol plaque in our veins cause clots and we take cholesterol meds to keep that plaque down..so there is nothing there for the plattelets to cling to!
And to further back Ray Hammond's point...I now realize it's not JUST about HOW SHARP one's broad head edge is...but how DURABLE that sharp edge is! Sharp in...sharp out...will cause more damage and horrific bleeding "throughout the wound channel" and therefore...better penetration, better chance for an exit wound and then...better blood trail, it would seem!
PS. I went back and found Ed Ashby's quote in an email where I asked about this sharp broad head stuff:
Ed wrote,"IMHO, between similar profile broadheads you will be able to easily SEE the difference in the blood trails left by a truly sharp, high hardness BH and and that left by a head with lower hardness; assuming both are equally sharp going in. I'm also convinced that you'll be able to see a diference in the average animal reaction to the hits. A pass-through hit with a super sharp BH that stays super sharp throughout the penetration often elicits very little animal alarm, especially when no heavy bone is hit. They don't run as fast and as far before collapsing. Sometimes they don't even react at all, other than just a flinch at the hit. I've sure seen a disproportinate number of my animals fall, compared to the bowhunter's I've guided."
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Originally posted by wingnut:
Doc,
Interesting concept! I will be checking how sharp my heads are on exit from now on. We spend a great deal of time and effort getting them sharp for entry. Going to be a true judgement if they are sharp on exit.
I compare this to the other day when Rusty, Jason and I were at Gil's. Gil's grandson took his first buck that morning and his dad had it hung up and was skinning. He cut through the hair around both legs and proceeded. He was really struggling until I went over and handed him my Helle knife. The job went easy from there on. Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.
Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?
Mike
Sure does Mike.
I've heard soooo many people say "well, a broadhead only has to make one cut". That's certainly true but think of the forces applied to the cutting edge during the nano-second that the broadhead is making that "one cut".
A broadhead slamming into and through hair, hide, flesh, and likely at least some bone at 160 fps is equal to your knife making at least a couple of hundred individual cuts... and the steel used in knives is often superior to the steel used for broadheads.
We're drifting a bit off topic again but, I think it's an important ingredient in the "Exit holes...bloodtrails...Penetration" recipe.
Ron
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what angle of grind is a Thunderhead ? Does anyone know ?
because they are some of the scariest sharp out of the box blades ever, and I shot through my KS buck and one in 2003, several elk and other deer and I know for a fact that they go in ultra sharp, cut hair, break bone and exit and they'll still cut you really bad if you don't watch it.
I don't know that I buy the "razor sharp going in doesn't come out sharp" theory.
Now if a T-head is a 32 or 34 degree angle or something (as opposed to say, a 20 degree) then I could see some validity .... but I'm betting a T-head is pretty low angle or else they'd not be THAT sharp.
right or wrong ?
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Originally posted by Doc Nock:
SuperK...
First...Hooboy... I'm in over my head...but as I have been under special "tutelage" to learn to use a new sharpening "system" correctly...and to remove that maddening layer of extra steel on a laminated broad head...I've had an epiphany.
I was recently taught and found true that one shouldn't stop "working the coarse stone/diamond hone, or black wet 150 grit paper" until the blade edge will shave hair...or try really hard to do so... and that is at the COARSEST level!
I always figured if it got "close" at the coarse material stage...then it would get sharper with the finer grits/hones/stones. Wrong! :(
That amazed me. Using my previous mentors' suggestions of how to tell if something is sharp...I'd have thought I was at a "sharp" place with the roughest stone/hone/grit a few weeks back! Nope.
But alas, I'd not YET learned it should shave hair rght there so I spent a lot of time doing the next several levels of stone/hone/grit paper to get it "finished..."
Imagine my amazement when I knocked off that first rough "sharp feeling edge" only to find it wouldn't cut zippo!
I have this new insight..or theory for those who disagree, that indeed, that sense that a file sharpened head that seems all "catchy" and sharp enough to slice your eye, MAY indeed, not really be sharp!
Using the "cross the thumb skin" and over the fingernail techniques..it seemed way sharp...but when I knocked off that jagged edge..it wasn't close. Seems that "jagged" roughness makes it FEEL sharp...but at best..it's just "catchy sharp" for lack of a better term.
I have several friends, mentors and teachers of the arcane that have sworn a jagged edge feeling file-sharpened edge is sharper... only thing that made me ever know it wasn't the best edge for hunting is what I referenced above... MEDICAL RESEARCH.
Ragged cuts clot way quicker and we don't WANT clotting..we want hemorrhaging...and that comes from a slick, smooth razor sharp edge.
I know folks will make idols of me now and poke pins in it...cause it goes against a lot of "traditional" thinking. But dangnabbit..blood plattlets, clotting factor cells, they look for something to cling to so as to form a clot...any rough edge cut will clot faster than a smooth slice! Which is why our cholesterol plaque in our veins cause clots and we take cholesterol meds to keep that plaque down..so there is nothing there for the plattelets to cling to!
And to further back Ray Hammond's point...I now realize it's not JUST about HOW SHARP one's broad head edge is...but how DURABLE that sharp edge is! Sharp in...sharp out...will cause more damage and horrific bleeding "throughout the wound channel" and therefore...better penetration, better chance for an exit wound and then...better blood trail, it would seem!
PS. I went back and found Ed Ashby's quote in an email where I asked about this sharp broad head stuff:
Ed wrote,"IMHO, between similar profile broadheads you will be able to easily SEE the difference in the blood trails left by a truly sharp, high hardness BH and and that left by a head with lower hardness; assuming both are equally sharp going in. I'm also convinced that you'll be able to see a diference in the average animal reaction to the hits. A pass-through hit with a super sharp BH that stays super sharp throughout the penetration often elicits very little animal alarm, especially when no heavy bone is hit. They don't run as fast and as far before collapsing. Sometimes they don't even react at all, other than just a flinch at the hit. I've sure seen a disproportinate number of my animals fall, compared to the bowhunter's I've guided."
I reckon a shaving-sharp broadhead feels duller than one that won't shave when you draw your thumb over it.
You should be able to get a shaving blade with a file. I don't start using the oil-stone until I can shave my arms with the grain just using a file.
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This is a little drift but it is to the same end. A well placed exit wound.
I've been a big supporter of "file sharp" for years and have never had penetration problems, even on larger game. But I'm going to sharpen my Woodsman's to a "don't want to be in the same room" sharp for an upcoming hog hunt. I'll let ya know how it goes.
Mike
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But I'm going to sharpen my Woodsman's to a "don't want to be in the same room" sharp for an upcoming hog hunt. I'll let ya know how it goes.
Good luck. I can get them pretty dang sharp and awhile ago I thought I had it figured out but I can't consistently reproduce it. Every once in awhile I'll get one hair popping sharp. And I've tried a number of techniques. Last night I went back to a file and a couple stones. Got'em real sharp but not hair popping. I have to use a strop and some polishing compound to get that and I don't have it with me.
I'd sure like to see someone in person get a WW hair popping sharp with a file and couple stones.
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I'm going to start with the file and get them where I hunt now. Then using diamond stones, work them from extra course to xxfine using Charlies technique with each. They should be at the sharpest they can be at the end.
I will be using the DMT duofold sharpeners to do it. I'll let you know how it goes.
Maybe do a sharp along with pics.
Mike
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I've used 160gr Snuffers for years, because they produce big holes, a good thing to have if there's only one hole. I file sharpen them, and I touch them up every so often. As a kid, I once watched Fred Bear hunting in Alaska, and he was touching up his broadheads with a file next to the campfire. As I remember it (Paraphrasing here) "A couple of light strokes to touch them up is all you need." Apparently, this was something he did every day while hunting.
For years, I've wanted to try Tom Mussato's (hope I spelled that right) method where he establishes the edge, then rakes the edge with the edge of the file to harden it and produce tiny serrations, then touches the eges up again to finish the job. It makes sense, but I just can't bring myself to rake a file across the edge of my nice Snuffers.
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I do not like any head straight out of the package, I sharpen all heads better than the way they come to us. I start with the Wensel Woodsmans or SnufferSS by blacking out all 6 surfaces with a sharpie then I pull them from back to front over a 12" bastard file until all surfaces are shinning, you must get them shinning from back to tip completely. This step can take 5-10minutes per head. This will set the tone for the perfect angle to now sharpen up!
Once done, I use a med/fine Arkansas stone. I again pull the head from back to tip. I do all sides 15 times then 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4 then 2 then 1. I then turn the stone over on the fine side & repeat. Once I'm done with those steps I then with the weight of the head only pull it along the fine side once per side another 20-30 times with little to no finger wt. Once I hit each side once that's considered 3 strokes. When you are done those bad boys are razor sharp!!! 20-30- minutes per head is common!
I've also tried this exact process with the DMT Diamond Stones in place of the final finishes with the Arkansas Stone, the DMT's don't even come close in sharpness comparison for me.
The above process will get your heads shaving sharp without to fine of an edge. I've tried stropping too, it's too fine a edge for my liking.
ElkNut1
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Just a quick note on stones:
Like Elknut says, Diamond stones are really aggressive and can take a blade from dead blunt to pretty stinkin sharp relatively quickly but, even the best XX-fine diamond stone in the world can't begin to polish like a ceramic or Arkansas stone.
The progression should be (ideally):
File (if necessesary), then diamond stone(s), followed by ceramic(s), then Arkansas, and finish up by stropping on leather or my personal favorite, corrugated cardboard.
Make sure to get the blades are very, very sharp with the file or coarse diamond stone before progressing to the next grit. If not you'll end up with beautifull, mirror polished edges that are duller than dirt.
Ron
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it is a fact that what happens between the in and out hole is the most import. havig dissected a bounch of stuff in college, i can tell ya it is easy to push a blood vessel out of the way with an extremely sharp scaple.
it had occured to me (maybe wrongly) that the rough file edge of the BH would grab the blood vessel instead of push it out of he way. I have no real idea as to the facts....just one of those things ya deside is right then hang on to it if it is working.
rusty
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Lots of great input and ideas shared here. I by no means have a lot of my own expertise. I'm still learning about sharp, and how to get it. I do think that sharp is directly correlated to "exit holes, penetration and blood trails" so I hope Mike doesn't feel this is sidetracking. :eek:
Only thing I'd offer further input on, that I feel confident in my own knowledge is this:
Originally posted by trashwood:
... it is easy to push a blood vessel out of the way with an extremely sharp scaple.
it had occured to me (maybe wrongly) that the rough file edge of the BH would grab the blood vessel instead of push it out of he way.
rusty
In some of Ed Ashby's reports, he discusses at length the mechanical advantage (MA) of various blade designs, bevels, etc and he reviews the very point of pushing veins/arteries to the side. That is a whole nuther can of worms! :)
Rusty, I can't argue against wheither the serrated, rough file edge might better grab and "tear" a vein going by ...
What medical information I've been exposed to shows is that rough torn edge might cause a vein to open...but it will clot a lot quicker, which we also don't want. We need them to be cut to bleed, but we also need the cuts not to clot!
As you say, Rusty, to each his own but I learn from these discussions--- and have had to change my views on a lot of things through what's presented here.
That is why I'm so grateful for the great sharing that takes place here.
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My thoughts on the 2blade exits not bleeding.
I have a hard time believing that an edge sharp enough to punch through the other side of an animal isn't sharp enough to make the animal bleed.
I strongly believe that the slit a 2 blade leaves simply seals back together easily. Whether it be do to pressure from surrounding tissue or a moisture (sticking together) type seal. Single lacerations (broadhead or not) just have a natural tendancy to seal themselves. Might actually be more accurate to call the wound an incision, since it is so clean a cut. The larger the width, the harder it is to seal.
My opinion, you'd need above 1.25" width to get decent results. Of course there are obviously lots of variables.
A 3 blade head leaves a wound where the tissue tends to pull away from the center, leaving somewhat of a hole. Better for drainage and less prone to be plugged with tissue.
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Originally posted by Morning Star:
My thoughts on the 2blade exits not bleeding.
I have a hard time believing that an edge sharp enough to punch through the other side of an animal isn't sharp enough to make the animal bleed.
I strongly believe that the slit a 2 blade leaves simply seals back together easily. Whether it be do to pressure from surrounding tissue or a moisture (sticking together) type seal. Single lacerations (broadhead or not) just have a natural tendancy to seal themselves. Might actually be more accurate to call the wound an incision, since it is so clean a cut. The larger the width, the harder it is to seal.
My opinion, you'd need above 1.25" width to get decent results. Of course there are obviously lots of variables.
A 3 blade head leaves a wound where the tissue tends to pull away from the center, leaving somewhat of a hole. Better for drainage and less prone to be plugged with tissue.
I think (regardless of the desired amount of blood) that we must focus on what fatal damage the head is doing to the vitals rather than how much blood is going to be left.
A very quick kill is more desirable than a an easy to follow blood trail.
And I'm not saying that the two don't go hand-in-hand.
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Tom,
That is fine and good, but if you don't have the blood trail you don't recover the animal and . .. .here that is a very bad thing.
I know in Australian most of what you hunt is feral and considered vermin. We don't have that here so recovery is the biggest part of this sport. At least it is too me.
Mike
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I understand recovery is THE most important aspect of shooting an animal.
It is here too.
I'm saying, you MUST try and achieve the best of both worlds; that is, a killing shot and a good trail.
The two don't necessarily happen simultaneously.
I too strive for pass-through shots for damge of organs and blood vessels.
Anyway, I'm saying what ya'll already know.
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Tom,
I ment no offence. A shot that enters and exits through vital tissue and retains a sharp characteristic throughout leaves the best trail to follow. A good news trail if you will. I think we are saying the same thing but getting there through different means.
I believe the two can happen simultaneousley.
Mike
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I know you meant no offense Mike.
And I, too, believe they can happen simultaneously but will not always.
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I started on the project this morning by pulling the DMT grit chart. These are the grits I have available to use:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/grit_chart.gif)
The real heavy ones will really move metal and after already doing the file I think would be overkill. Where do you think I should start with a good file sharpened head? I'm thinking Red, Green, White, Tan.
Mike
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as a wood carver Red, Green, whitem and tan are the one i use for wood carving knifes.
rusty
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Cool!! I moved this to a new thread. WW. . .how sharp can we get it?