Anyone out there in any state feel my pain, depression, anxiety...etc. I don't know if there are enough adjectives to describe it really :rolleyes: ...maybe some of you can sympathize and help out with my lack of verbage. No offense to the gun hunters out there its just the terrible experiences I have had while bow hunting during Michigans firearm season has almost made me hang up the recurve. Anyone who has hunted in the Southern Lower knows...might as well be in Iraq.
Public properties around Madison ( Wisconsin) get hit pretty hard too. For years we would just go visit the Footed Shaft on opening day of gun season and not worry about it.
ChuckC
Hard to feel your pain. You've had 6 weeks of archery only and still have the month of December.
We get 3 weeks of archery only.
I am right there with you, it is depressing. The orange army who usually scout the weekend before are out with quads screwing up the rut already! Isn't it great. They should have a drawing and break up the gun season so not so many are out all at once. All I usually do after gun season are deer drives with muzzleloaders. Sometimes I can find a honeyhole in some sort of neighborhood setting to sit for unpressured deer (AKA: deer that sometimes come out during daylight in michigan...)
I really have no problem with gun hunting, I enjoy it! I just pick up my Flintlock, 95 grains of Black powder, stuff a patched round ball down the muzzle and go to the woods! I love it!
Correction Vermonster13...our bow season runs from October 1st to November 14th. Before that we have early firearm from Sept 18th to the 22nd, then youth gun season from Sept 27th to the 28th, then regular firearms from Nov 15th to the 30th. Then bows only from Dec 1st to the 4th (why I don't know, it does the archers no good, must be a token gesture to keep the days between the two seasons at almost an even split.) Then Dec 5th to the 21st we have muzzleloader season then from Dec 22nd to Jan 1st we have Late Shotgun. All totaled we have 49 days of bow season and 50 of gun. The thing is not the amount of days but rather their timing. We have one full week of gun just before the bow opener, tell me how fair/grand that is. Also, the general firearms starts during the later part of the rut, just when things are getting good around here. Another problem is the fact that when the boomsticks start deer might as well be ghosts. 1 million (MIDNR Statistic) gun hunters tend to have that effect. Couple that with a failing wildlife managment approach and it makes me wonder why I even pay them the license fees for what litte of a so called good experience I can find around here. Sorry, none of this is pointed at you it just brings up the crux of a heated debate in this part of the state but thats a whole different animal.
"It's like Christmas with guns."LOL I love it.
Firearm license sales for Michigan were about 730,000 last year with 300,000 archery licenses sold. Firearm hunters took 60% of the deer killed and archery took 25%, Muzzleloader and special tags took the rest. You also get to hunt with your bow through muzzleloader and shotgun season of which there are far fewer tags sold for than archery.
Deer seasons are for controlling deer numbers and the Michigan DNR has very specific goals for the populations. Unless archery hunters start taking larger numbers of deer and purchasing more tags don't expect much change.
Still wish we had as many days open to hunt as you fellows do. 6 weeks and done here. Firearms starts here Saturday and goes for two weeks. Been two weeks without being able to chase deer and I'm Jonesing big time! lol
Im headed to the deepest part of the swamp with my longbow.....it will be like hunting in the middle of a big pumpkin patch with all the orange around me... i just hope i dont get shot on the way out... I've already heard the chainsaws cutting shooting lanes, seen the orange ribbon tied to trees so that the fellows dont get lost...apparently they've forgot what a compass is for.... I'll be after the pressured deer where they go...in the thick stuff.
Vermonster... the 60% and 25% number is just a wild guess based on number of licenses sold for archery and firearm...I do agree we are lucky to have plenty of available hunting... i personally do not like any gun seasons before archery... that was the beauty of our archery season..the deer werent pressured and you could pattern them ..now they are being shot at two weeks before archery season.... I do like to archery hunt the late muzzle loader season...after the deer have been holed up for 2 weeks during gun season..they tend to visit the crop fields early to fatten up and get ready for winter during the late season.....
No wild guess, it is based on the deer killed. 249,000 with firearms and 126,000 with bows. The rest were muzzleloader, youth and special hunt tags.
Of course firearms could say they liked the days when there were no archery seasons and the deer had been unmolested before they got their crack.
Just giving other points of view. We tend to look at things only from our side. I very much like the fact that Archery is first here, then the two day youth hunt followed by two weeks of firearms and then a week of muzzleloader/archery with at least a week off between each season.
Vermonster...thats the problem...the DNR here in MI manages for profit margins and reduction of deer numbers, not producing quality deer. In Iowa their DNR manages for age structure in the deer herd and look at the type of animals they are taking year in and year out. Michigan can not even begin to compare with a state like that with the seasons we have. Don't think for a second that the animals being taken in states like Iowa, Kansas and Illinois are by accident. The firearms harvest numbers are impressive in total quantity of deer but the quality of those deer are marginal at best and the majority of that percentage are does and fawns with most fawns being button bucks. Yes, we can hunt with a bow during all firearm seasons but the effectiveness of which is reduced to the farthest margins at best. To see a deer during daylight hours during any gun season is nothing short of a miracle most literally. If you consider us lucky that we can use our weapon of choice during firearms season then we are lucky but it stops there.
Also, to the point of the gun hunters liking their deer unmolested, how many bow shots have you heard on opening day? Last year alone I counted 135 shots from dawn to Noon on the gun opener and that was only what I could hear obviously. Not only that but the deer you do see are running in a panic from block of woods to block of woods trying to get away. No, kidding one year I watched a family group of does and fawns that started out at six in number run to three block of woods and 5 of the six got killed and the 6th came out of the woods wounded. It was a button buck and I shot it as he came limping by me. I did not shoot by choice. Come on over and you can hunt my spot anytime during any gun season, we will see if you want to come back... ;)
vermonster...where exactly do you think the dnr comes up with those numbers...i can assure you there are hundreds if not a thousand in my tiny town of dansville that arent reported...those numbers are so far fetched its a joke...Ive hunted in michigan all of my life and know of very few that reported deer killed to the dnr...and a large number of these deer are being processed by the hunter. The dnr are pulling these numbers off of their checkstations and maybe from some of the processers... Or most likely just out of their rear. Its not a requirement to report a killed deer. (Dave..sorry man, im just not a DNR fan..I admit it :thumbsup: )
Vermonster...didn't think you would step into that one did you...lol...I hope this thread is not coming off as hostile that was not the intention...just venting a little frustration at the ever dwindling opportunity here and it sounds like even that is better then what you have over in Vermont. You can share my campfire anytime no matter how small and pitiful...lol :campfire:
Jacob...get ready buddy...stay low and watch your 6...so where is dansville anyway?
:campfire:
Jacob any luck this season yet? Been slow down here as far as shootin goes...been seeing some nice ones running some does though...got 13 guys from Detroit surrounding me on their lease. They have me cornered on my little 20 acre swamp...now I know how the rabbit in the brush pile feels...lol
sent pm.
I used to hate it when firearms started, but now have learned how to hunt around it, or use it to my advantage. Here goes:
Scout for hunters the same as you would for deer. Drive around the spots you intend to hunt and look where the obvious gun hunters will be. Now find a way to back-door them on opening day. They will push deer to you all day long.
Sit in your stand as long as you can take it. Most of my gun season bow kills were after 11:30am. The Orange Army gets bored or cold and will leave the woods around 9:30-10am. An hour after that the deer will scurry around. I love to watch the inexperienced gun toters with "Elmer Fudd Face" try and sneak around the woods. The deer will be 100yds ahead of them and heading out, without the hunter even knowing it.
Jacobsladder has the right idea too. Get into the nastiest stuff possible. The thick stuff is useless to most gun hunters looking for a 75yd shot. We bowhunters know how to play the "in close" game. Thick stuff allows for a 15 yd maximum shot distance, which is perfect for trad gear.
Get your butt off the ground!! This is mainly for safety. I've had slugs go whizzing past my head on heavily pressured land. It didn't take long for me to get into a tree. You can also see approaching hunters way before they could pose a possible threat and you can see the deer being pushed to you much sooner. If your not a fan of climbing trees, invest in a ladder stand. If you put it in the thick and nasty, no one will find it.
Get in early! Most novice hunters will wait till 20 minutes before light to come in. Beat them in by 40 minutes and keep your flashlight handy to shine them off if they get too close.
Hope this helps. I have battled public land odds for 11 years and figured out some ways to be successfull during this time. I will say make your first two days really count, odds are they will be your best.
I find that 2-3 days before gun season ends, most hunters have bagged a deer or given up. The deer move somewhat back to normal. I'm usually looking forward to the 3rd week of December after Nov 18th.
Agreed Arwin...wish the DNR took more of an Iowa approach though...imagine the monsters that would be lurking about...I hunt a nasty, thick swamp and am surrounded on all sides...not only that but all of their gun stands are pointed at my swamp...wondering if I should even go in there. I think I will be more vulnerable in a tree, maybe I will put that gravel ridge between me and as many of them as possible...lol
Oh I know, all that pressure at the peak of breeding. I have often wondered if the big smart bucks that I know are there but don't see, pass on the breeding in lieu of saving their own neck. I'm not talking about 3 1/2 yr olds and under. The rut makes them dumb and they don't know better. I'm talking about the 5-6 yr olds that might be wise enough to hide rather than chase booty. Sure they might breed at night, but I think most of the breeding on severely pressured land is done by lesser bucks who blindly chase the women. Kinda like a 18-20yr old male person who blindly chases females,LOL! Some of us older males know it's sometimes better to run the other way! :bigsmyl:
Iron,
I grew up in southern lower (Lenawee county). Know exactly what your talking about. If you can believe it the county I live in now in Indiana is worse than anywhere I hunted in southern lower Michigan. We have the largest opening day firearms harvest of any other county in the state. A war zone would be an understatement. If feel for ya, but atleast we had six weeks to have our fun with out the mob.
Dave,
Having lived and hunted in Michigan for 20+ years I wouldn't stake a shinny nickle on anything MDNR has on deer harvests or numbers. They honestly are guesses at best. Since there are no mandatory deer check stations or hunter surveys like here in Indiana or other states, they are just guessin'.
As silly as it sounds, there is a sadness that consumes the large tracts of public land when the smoke clears. I imagine the woodlots to the south experience something similar. It is something that can be FELT.
I feel the worst part of firearm season, are the "hunters" who grab a gun for the FIRST time all year, and become "deer hunters" with the addition of an orange vest.
Antlerless licenses are easily available, and many of these "hunters" shoot any deer they see.
Way too often, it is a button buck killed by a hunter who does not know what they are doing, or the harm they cause to the deer herd by doing so.
Many of the hunters who do not manage to kill a deer, then complain that there was a cause, such as bowhunters, or the use of bait, or not being allowed to bait, or the youth hunt, or SOMETHING.
It had nothing to do with the fact that they had not even entered the woods anywhere prior to "deer season".
All in all, being successful during or after firearm season requires special skills on the part of the hunter. And isn`t it those same "special skills" that draw us to traditional archery hunting in the first place?
Button bucks are the least likely to survive the season, usually they are late borns and the feed they eat makes it harder on the deer you want surviving. If you have a properly balanced herd, bucks are usually the first borns from the earliest bred does and should become spikes the first year if the nutrition is available for them to do so.
Iowa charges residents $47.00 to whitetail hunt, imagine the noise if your DNR upped license costs that much, they also have more agricultural lands and much fewer hunters and less population.
You could press for antler restrictions if you want bigger bucks but there are things that come with that also. Leasing has already begun here since restrictions were passed. As the deer get larger expect less land access as property owners are approached by outfitters and wealthier hunters with cash to gain exclusive rights thus packing more hunters into the public lands.
Also gun hunters aren't the only ones who grab a weapon at the beginning of a season and become "hunters". Visit the archery shop the week before season opens and get an eyeful.
There are many more good hunters in each group than there is bad, it's just that the bad ones always stick out unfortunately.
How many tags did you fill during the 6 weeks you had the woods for archery only?
Quote:
Also gun hunters aren't the only ones who grab a weapon at the beginning of a season and become "hunters". Visit the archery shop the week before season opens and get an eyeful.
I think that is the difference between trad hunters and Wheel hunters. I am a converted wheel hunter so I know 1st hand.
I guess I'll say if you are so disatified with the hunting oppurtunity in MI, go out of state. I know when I left WA, I vowed to never spend another dollar in that state to hunt.
It's ok to not like what's happening, if you do the best you can to change it. Join the organizations in your state that are moving in that direction. Testify at state commission meetings with well thought out factual information.
Just like in politics, don't complain do what you can to make a change.
Mike
Given our long archery season it is hard to complain. I have found some places to hunt during gun season that are still pretty calm.
I noticed fewer hunters in the areas I hunt during the archery seasons, presumably due to the baiting ban in effect here now. I hope that it carries over into the gun season as well.
My experiences in the southern and mid lower during the firearms season were pretty harrowing to say the least, and honestly I'm surprised there aren't a lot more wounded and killed hunters then there are reported.
I'm right with all of you, the rifle opener needs to be pushed back a week, and go from Nov 20th through Dec 5th. I'll be taking my kids with me in hopes that my daughter can take her first buck. She passed a spike last year- too small she said, this year, hard to say what will go on.
My neighbor to the east ahs been seeing a good buck on his chunk, and hope that he ventures our way on Saturday morning...good luck to all, and BE SAFE!
Gun hunters are people too... aren't they :confused: ... :goldtooth:
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Old_Muzzleloader_picture.jpg)
It sounds like to me that the Michagan DNR is using the Guns hunters as more like pre-birth control more then good population control. Sounds like Obama's idea to redistribute the wealth.
You guys are forgetting a few things. Hunters are Hunters plain and simple!! The complaining you do about gun hunters they do the same about bow hunters and you get what we have now which is a great devide in our numbers. You guys should be happy that you can still use a bow if you choose during our gun seasons. I for one enjoy any kind of legal hunting I can participate in. The thing to remember is if you start messing with gun seasons then they are going to start messing with bow seasons as well. Why wouldn't they. There are a great number of gun only hunters out there that think it is crap that bow hunters get 6 weeks to hunt before they even get a chance.
The youth hunt is one that I am very passionate about. The youth hunters need to be out and see deer. They should first and foremost get a chance because they are the future of our sport that we should all cherish and not take for granted. Remember hunting is a privilege not a right and can be taken away if we dont ALL do our part as sportsman to protect it!!
Not bashing gun hunting Tim, I still pick up a rifle every now and again. I just don't feel as safe in the woods during the season unless I can get away from crowds.
Yeah I hear ya Mike. The thing about that crowd is 80% of them will be within 100 yards of a road. If you are like me and enjoy a good hike in the morning then you rarely see another hunter even during gun season.
Mike, I will be back home in Mt. Morris for the opener of gun season. My dad and I have 80 acres in Clio that we hunt on.
Its the wading through the crowd that is scary, unless you get out real early.
I'll be in the UP, most likely hunting with my bow. Although toting my grandfathers ol '06 would really bring back some memories.
This will only be the 2nd time I can recall when I'll actually hunt opening day. :-D
Awesome!! Good luck up there man.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ron LaClair:
Gun hunters are people too... aren't they :confused: ... :goldtooth:
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Old_Muzzleloader_picture.jpg)
:goldtooth:
Love that pic! I do have respect for those who muzzleload. One shot is all you get. I know those hunters will likely choose the most wisest shot available.
Sorry if it sounded like I stepped on some gun hunters toes. I think the majority of us who show a bit of dislike for the season have had bad experiences year after year.
There are good and bad hunters out there no matter the season, I just tend to see it more towards firearms.
Things like piles of carcasses with very little meat removed and you know they didn't get tagged.
Littering, the woods become a garbage dump, which really ticks me off.
Wreck less behavior, I've been shot at more than once by someone not checking their background. Now I will only hunt from a tree and still have had slugs go whizzing under my stand.
Bad sportsmanship, I've had problems with hunters wanting to nearly sit in my lap. When I ask them to move at least 100 yds away they either yell something rude, crash through the woods, or light up a smoke and stay in their spot.
My worst encounters during bow season might be someone setting up a bit close. I know the deer in my area enough to move around those hunters so it's not as much of a problem.
"Hunting is a privelege not a right"..... Tim ,they got ya brain washed bud.... It should be my right to hunt anything I want on "my" land shouldnt it?.... The DNR has already started messing with archery season...its called the youth season and early firearm season..... Is the youth season "really" about youths hunting..or is it just another way for the DNR to sell more licenses? Heck I can buy a doe tag a day for my tiny piece of ground.... Its all about the dollar bud..... Keeps them big wigs polishing their leather seats with their rears.
Steve, no brainwashing here bud!! Yes you SHOULD be able to hunt what you want on YOUR land. Some of us are not that lucky to have our own land to hunt and it is a PRIVELEGE for us to be allowed to hunt on stated owned land.
Also you can buy a tag a day for anterless deer on private land but you cannot buy more than 5 tags total for the year.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_38954_38957-194921--,00.html
...the reason there is state owned land is because you and I and the rest of the tax payers bought it... so youre darn right we should get to hunt it...and yes we all have the right to hunt it.... :banghead:
Where I hunt in the UP, the private property I have access to has a "no does" rule and the state does not issue antlerless permits for county. That puts me on state land for the majority of my bow hunting. With the changes to the combo license for the UP this year... :thumbsup:
I forgot that those are "state owned" animals.... I better start checking with the "state" to see if i can cut down "my' trees for firewood... heck ..maybe they would sell me a license to cut a tree down a day...or maybe even 5 this season. :banghead: :banghead:
Vermonster...I would gladly pay $200 as a resident for ONE buck tag if I could legitimately have a chance on filling that tag with a 150" deer. My buddy just got back from Iowa, his third trip and they saw 6 150" or better bucks in 6 days and he managed to harvest a 145-150" non-typical all on state land. Not to mention on his first trip out two years ago he did the same thing. Michigan has it all wrong...from what I hear about Wisconsin and the earn a buck program and shorter gun seasons I am all for it.
To everyone else... I do not believe for a second that ALL hunters are created equal or all hunters are hunters. Now I am not saying they are bad people because of the weapon they choose to hunt with..I am not saying they are bad people at all. I am saying that I have encountered some so called "hunters" that I will never place myself on even ground with. Go ahead here comes the we all need to band together debate...please save it...everyone should read the article in the Oct/Nov Issue of Traditional Bowhunter by David Sigurslid... I think thats the issue date. He explains very plainly why hunters are not and should not be equal.
QuoteOriginally posted by IronCreekArcher:
Vermonster...I would gladly pay $200 as a resident for ONE buck tag if I could legitimately have a chance on filling that tag with a 150" deer. ...
Your pockets are deeper then mine. I won't pass up a nice big rack if I had the opportunity but I'm not a rack hunter. I hunt for the hunt; any deer is welcome in my freezer.
I hear ya there Mike, I should probably let the wanting to see big deer thing go because I will be the first to loose an arrow at the 1 1/2 olds. Some may call me a hypocrite but for now I can't beat them so I am joining them. I have spent the last 5 years trying to manage my property for an older age class of deer but the neighbors are the only ones that have benefitted. I did manage to take a nice 2 year old in 2006; but man imagine just being able to see a 150" deer on a regular basis and thinking one day you might get a crack at him...for now I will keep on dreamin'...