Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: EIGHTWGT on November 08, 2008, 07:33:00 AM
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I saw a couple of posts where people had mentioned Dr Ashby was/ had done a report yet to be posted on low poundage bows.
Can anyone elaborate on this fact ? Shooting a 43# hybrid of my own making and really liking the low draw weight I am very interested in this report. I have after reading the 'Ashby Reports' switched to grizzly broadheads, and higher weight arrows (12gpi) with EFOC... Id like to read more...
Thanks guys
Tom
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I, also, am interested.
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I have two bows, 42# & 41#. My total arrow weight is 550 grains, with a 150 grain Wensel Woodsman broadhead on the business end, so I'm shooting a little over 13 grains per pound. These arrows work very well for me on deer and small 200 pound and under hogs. Don't know how they would work on a 250 pound or more hog since I've never encountered one while bowhunting.
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Don't have any insight into Dr Ashby's research, but a buddy of mine has recently gone from high poundage bows to short recurves in the mid 40# range. He downsized due to damage from the rigors of an adventurous life. The good news is his shooting has been unbelieveable, much better than I have ever seen him, he is killing deer better than ever, and he has been bowhunting 40 some years. If a deer walks by within 30 yards it is good as dead, and he is getting pass throughs with the same arrows he shot out of his 60+ pound bows. I have been a fan of 70# plus bows for years, but after seeing him I plan to move below 60# with my next bow. As someone once said a 40# bow with a 400 grain arrow can kill a moose. I know my buddies 40# bows and 500 grain arrows are more than up to moose, bear, and elk.
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Tom,
I went down in draw weight to a 45 pound Martin Hunter this year. Shooting CE Heritage 150's, 160g STOS with a 40 g adaptor, for a total arrow weight of 550 g. My EFOC is 19% which, according to Dr. Ashby, is on the low end of EFOC. I've found that I'm shooting much better also with the lower weight.
Shot three deer so far this season. Two bucks both field dressed 180# and a doe that I'll probably get 2 or 3 sammiches out of.
One, 12 yards, broadside through the heart, complete pass-thru. Second buck, 20 yards, hard quartering away shot in the ham/femoral, did not pass thru. And lastly the "2 sammich doe", 20 yards, quartering away, entered between the 3rd and 4th rib from the back, exited out the opposite leg and broke it.
So, 45 pounds is plenty for deer as far as I'm concerned. Plus I can practice more shooting the lower weights, which is a good thing. I also like a heavy 12 gpi arrow and the relatively high FOC. YMMV.
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The good Doc is collecting more data and will tie that in with UHFOC's. Just looking at his existing data he gave minimum speeds for an 840 grain arrow (I think it was) to consistantly reach the off side ribs of a buff...I can exceed his numbers with a 47# bow drawn to 30". It's not the horsepower, it's how fast you use the horsepower you have....O.L.
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O.L., what about a shooter whose draw weight is 41-42# with a 25" draw length? Would draw length be an important variable in this equation? Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in this aspect of archery and bowhunting.
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Eightwgt + FL Does that = bonefish??????
OK to the ???at hand. I still beleave in the maximum efficienticy(sp) of a bow. That is the most energy into the arrow that will fly the straightest. I see folk quite often that shoot 6" to 7" groups that with a well tuned arrow will cut that in half, sometimes it is us , but I want the best tuned equipment I can get. That hopefully will gain in shorter recovery(dead quicker)...
P.S. I no longer own my Blackswan 85#er
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On the wheelie bow sites I have read many threads where the guys are constantly trying to attain "More speed and K.E.! More speed and K.E."! :rolleyes:
That's fine but, without also adding MASS, adding speed does very little to improve K.E.
I would like to see a penetration test between a 300 gr arrow shot from a 60 lb. wheel bow at 280 fps and a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 lb. recurve or longbow at around 180 fps.
Anybody want to speculate which one would get better penetration at any range? :D
Ron
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As I understand Ed's report he set about finding the threshold at which an arrow would reliably penatrate bone .
He also is looking for a way to explain why his research indicates lighter poundage bows are more efficient .
I am pretty sure the formula for working out the momentum of an arrow which is one of 13 indicators of arrow penatration performance is MOMENTUM = MASS X VELOCITY . That should indicate which of the above bows should deliver more momentum to an arrow
regards Jacko
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
On the wheelie bow sites I have read many threads where the guys are constantly trying to attain "More speed and K.E.! More speed and K.E."! :rolleyes:
That's fine but, without also adding MASS, adding speed does very little to improve K.E.
I would like to see a penetration test between a 300 gr arrow shot from a 60 lb. wheel bow at 280 fps and a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 lb. recurve or longbow at around 180 fps.
Anybody want to speculate which one would get better penetration at any range? :D
Ron
I'm crap at physics but doesn't KE come from a higher mass?
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Tom,
KE=Mass x (velocity) squared. So velocity is king in calculating kentic Energy. But KE is a poor predictor of penetration.
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Java,
I have read a LOT on this subject and am somewhat of a tech type person anyway, although Im not a physics major, nor engineer. I was interested in what Mr Ashby has found in relation to low poundage because he seems to have spent more time gathering this information than anyone I can remember reading about. Its another way to learn more... as we never stop learning no matter our experiance...
BTW - 8 wgt + Florida = bones, tarpon, reds....
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Ron,
What curve or longbow is getting 180fps with a 13.3 gr/lb arrow? I want one!
Steve
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SteveB; i'm with you , only i want one of each.
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Steve, pull one to 32 or 33" and you can get it! :) At 30" I can get 160 at 14gpp.
RonD, Any bow gains or loses about 3-4% in horsepower for each inch up or down. A 40# at 28" should put out 9-12% more then a 40#@25". I say "should" cause there is enough difference between bows you can find good bows that will perform as well at 25" as poor ones at 28".
Blueline, good tuning goes without saying....
Before everyone goes off on tangents with this KE and mass thing...Keep in context what the Doc is looking at is how to optimize what ever bow is in your hand. In that context KE is a moot point, it's essentially fixed with little difference between 6gpp to 14. The ONLY thing a bow does is put KE into what ever arrow we stick into it...How we use that KE is what is important. It's like having a 500 horsepower engine sitting in your living room floor...We can make dragster 300mph in the quarter or we can drop it in a Kenworth and pull 80,000 pounds...A LOT slower...We all agree a 60 pound bow should be more powerful then a 40, it's because of more KE available.
Ron, Yep, the compound folks have a lot of false perceptions. They "think" they are optimizing KE with "fast/light" arrows. Truth is ALL bows work the same. Compounds get more efficient and have more KE as arrow mass goes up just like ours do. Their arrows would do more "work", as in cutting meat, if they'd slow them down with arrow mass, again, just like trad bows. Some say "speed kills"...Yep, with "fixed" KE speed (time) "kills" the amount of work that can be done....O.L.
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OL - I like my ear just where it is :bigsmyl:
Steve
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I was shooting a 27" CX 200 with 100gn head out of a 55lb compound and it way out penetrated my heavier aluminums. I think the increased speed and smaller diameter shaft is important.
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"I think the increased speed and smaller diameter shaft is important."...Yep, small diameter is WAY more important then the speed. Increase the weight internally til the speed was the same as the aluminums and you'd have something. Have you even read the Ashby reports?....O.L.
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carlr2s....I think you are correct sir. We have not walked all of the streets and alleys as of yet. Once that all is settled, we can discuss degrees of dead. :goldtooth:
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I hope you guys know I'm just having fun with you by instigating this "spirited debate" :p
Here's another question: Does E=mc2 also take into account variables like EFOC or the shaft's paradox recovery time after the string is dropped on either type of bow?
Seems to me that a stiffer arrow will loose less energy to paradox than a weaker spined arrow would. So, the stiffer shaft would utilize a greater percentage of the bows energy?
Again, just like to instigate but, half serious about these variables, particularly the EFOC. I see no provision for EFOC in the equation E=mc2... and what about carlr2s point about smaller shaft diameters? lots of variables here. O.L...?
Ron
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Ron, "Seems to me that a stiffer arrow will loose less energy to paradox than a weaker spined arrow would. So, the stiffer shaft would utilize a greater percentage of the bows energy?"
Nope...Don't work that way. The only time spine plays a roll is when it causes contact with the bow. And that's usually the stiffer arrow that loses energy, not the weak one..Poor tuning will cause rapid energy loss, but that happens after it leaves the bow. Stirring the pot is good! At least it's well thought out and constructive, unlike others! :)
Yep, lots of variables, some are obvious, some aren't so....O.L.
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hmmmm well it will be interesting but ah... ah.... how exactly does penetration on a buffalo equate to penetartion of 100# Texas whitetail? Texas whitetail has about 5 or 6 inches of chest width at the heart.
So far their ain't been no 80# pigs in Texas (that is the size I hunt for....fits as a unit in my smoker :) ) that have lived over been shot by my 45# recurve......so don't understand why the penetgartion on a buffalo is going to change what I am doing ???? :) Interesting though.....and I am glade I was not the guy standing there with a 43# bow about to shoot at a water buffalo. Now that guy would need some professional mental health help IMO LOL
rusty
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Yeah Ron, is this Santa Claus' bow?
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The tests will give a lot of folks confidence in hunting with lighter poundage. Many are limited to the 38-40# range due to physical limitations, or simply the fact that they shoot that weight muuuucccch better. By going EFOC, they can sometimes double their penetration potential on deer size game. I can certainly see the value in it.
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What is being discussed here is important to me as low draw weight and short draw length shooter. At the present time I am shooting between 42# and 43# at 25" and want to get the best performance I can from the bow (recurve - 60", 46#@26")and get the best penetration I can in the hunting situation. Sometime back I lost all interest in deer hunting and acquired an interest in hog hunting because they are plentiful here in Mississippi. However, I hesitate to hunt hogs because of my concern with being able to kill them with my current bow that has such a low draw weight and short draw length. I chose the recurve because I thought and had read that the recurve would give me better performance than a longbow at my draw weight and draw length. I got into bowhunting because I like to hunt and wanted to have the most enjoyable experience doing so. However, all the technical and ethical issues that drive this sport is destroying the fun for me and making it more complicated than I want. However, in the hunting situation I want to get as clean a kill on the animal that I can and refrain from just shooting an animal under the guise of fun. I literally want to get the best from the bow I have and that means being more knowledgeable than I am about the matters of KE, penetration, and EFOC. But it seems that so much of the technical material is more a matter of opinion than fact and this person contradicts that person and in the end it makes it very difficult to know what to do. Even tuning the bow becomes tecnically confusing. At the present time, my concern with this issue is so great that I have decided not to hunt and just limit my shooting to the backyard (having fun and not worrying about getting a kill). Until I can find answers for myself to these issues I think I will limit myself to the backyard and let people with the heavier draw weights and longer draw lengths do the hunting and harvesting.
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Apex,
(and everyone else looking for the "super stickbow")...
I was intensionally exaggerating. There are recurves and long bows that get 180 fps or faster but, they'er obviously not 45lb draw shooting 13.3 grains per lb.
(And are the wheelie bow hunteres really shooting only 5 grains per pound now? Geese, I hope not)!
I'm one of the guys that have to shoot a low poundage bow because of physical problems and was just trying to point out that as O.L stated:
" the compound folks have a lot of false perceptions. They "think" they are optimizing KE with "fast/light" arrows. Truth is ALL bows work the same".
RonD, I don't have any experience with large hogs but there are plenty of people here who do. Before you decide one way or another if your bow/arrow/broadhead combination is up to the task, I'd encourage you to ask for some real life info from people who have real life experience with the brutes. Theory is fun to explore but don't let it be your deciding factor. Your set-up may well be adequate. How big are the hogs in your area?
Anyone have experience hunting hogs with lighter draw weight bows?
Ron
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RonD - don't limit your hunting, limit the size game. I promise if you hit a 80 pound pig in the heart with your rig it will be in the BBQ. for eactly the concerns you discuss I went to stringwalking a long time ago. I aim for the spot and hit the spot.
over the years I have proven to myself that hitting the spot with a sharp BH and well tuned kit will bring down the things I hunt with a 40# bow. Of course I have hunted mostly in Texas. I would not be interested in tring Africa out with a 40# bow but that leaves a lot of huning all things considered accuracy trumps penetration if you know your game and are cool in the stand :) . BUT I have never felt I was giving up peneatration with the rigs since the small diameter carbons have come along. i was amazed at the penetration I got with those old Beman Hunter 40/60 outsert arrows. I thought I had found a ray gun
rusty
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Rusty, "how exactly does penetration on a buffalo equate to penetartion of 100# Texas whitetail?"
Yep, that's all well and good when you are shooting more then required you can intentionally (or unknowingly) make poor choices and still be successful. Do you know any ladies, kids, or those with physical issues and can't accurtately shoot 40+ pounds?? Would 25 or 30# work?...You bet IF and only if they make good choices on arrow weight, broadhead style, ect...That is how penetration on buffalo equates, what works there works with anything. Those that follow Doc Ashby's lead can ethicly hunt much larger game with bows they can shoot accurately more so then folks shooting a lot more weight and ignoring it. ..So unless someone has something against those without heman physical abilities hunting, I can't see any other reason for the negitive comments?....O.L.
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RonD, "that means being more knowledgeable than I am about the matters of KE, penetration, and EFOC. But it seems that so much of the technical material is more a matter of opinion than fact and this person contradicts that person and in the end it makes it very difficult to know what to do. Even tuning the bow becomes tecnically confusing. At the present time, my concern with this issue is so great that I have decided not to hunt and just limit my shooting to the backyard (having fun and not worrying about getting a kill)."
Yes sir, that's an issue for sure...A person can look at Ed's data and "see" what differences broadheads, heavier arrows, skinnier arrows, and higher FOC's makes...Those same principles are going to work no matter if we're talking buffs with an 80# low performance bow or a 30# high performance on deer or pigs. When it comes to who to listen to....Resumes help! :) Lots of experience over many years isn't a good resume when they are closed minded and have only done things the same way for no other reason then to follow the crowd....
Somewhere I've got a photo of a young boy with his first rabbit kill. His dad got a hold of me and the boy is a drawf but loved going hunting with his dad. Problem was the little bow just didn't have the horsepower to do the job even on rabbits with the light POC arrows they are trying to shoot. I made him some 1/4" diameter hickory shafts with little tiny broadheads. Soon after I got back the hero photos with his first rabbit. That was a true trophy. The same ideas that work on buffs worked as well to the far extreme....O.L.
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If we can get more young children and women into the fold of Trad hunting with Dr. Ashby's research then I say he has done us all a favor that we can't repay.
That being said. I shoot my 55# bow just fine but if Ashby's research indicates that a lower bow can be just as effective, I'm dropping 10#.
I think of it this way. I can kill a squirrel with a 12gauge. I can also kill the same squirrel with a 4-10 and it'll be just as dead. Why carry all that extra gun if it just isn't needed?
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Sharpster, the hogs in this region of Mississippi range from 30 to slightly over 200 pounds. These hogs are found on the local NWR, where they have a fairly large population of them and a diminishing number of hunters. I haven't hunted them because I have never felt confident that my setup would do the job and make a clean kill with minimal suffering by the hog. What I am currently shooting is a Marriah Thermal T/D recurve, 60" in length, 42-43# at 25". I shoot B50 strings of my own making and use wool for string silencers and have a brace height of about 6 5/8". I think (not positive) the low brace height gives me better string follow on the release and in turn transfers more energy to the arrow. As far a arrows are concerned I shoot a 1716 Gamegetter II shaft cut to 26 1/2", 4" parabolic feathers (left wing - right hand shooter)with a 135 to 145 gr. two blade Magnus broadhead. I have shot 1916 XX75 Easton shafts with the same feather setup but use only 100 grain broadheads and they seem to shoot well from my bow. I limit my shots to 15 yards or less. I figured that if I were to hunt hogs at the NWR that I would have to limit the size of the hog to somewhere between 50 and 75#. We don't have a local bow shop that serves traditional hunters and the one shop here has a limited inventory of anything dealing with archery. Without these services it is difficlt to find the equipment to measure and weigh all of the essential features when it comes to arrows, arrow weights, broadhead weight, and total weight of arrow when fully decked out.
When I come to sites such as Tradgang I look for bits and pieces of information that I can experiment with and workout the dynamics that work well for me. I have learned a great deal from readinig posts here and from different how-to articles posted on this site. Any help you good people offer I accept with gratitude. So let me say at this point "thank you."
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RonD, Kudos to you for being concerned and trying to do your best. Those that shoot more weight then they need and or draw much further then some, make it sounds as if it's not a big deal, too much effort, or whatever. Fact is we all screw up occasionally no matter what we are shooting. Those that down play trying to optimize our equipment, not a one of them ever screwed up a shot and said "danm, wish I'd gotten 10% less penetration!" Keep digging, keep experimenting, take "common wisdom" with a big grain of salt...Things that "work" for others tells us nothing more then it "worked"...Once at least....That's a far cry and could be totally opposite from what works best.
A few facts...
Better tuning out performs poor tuning...
Sharp out penetrates dull....
Broadheads with less cutting diameter and high mechanical advantage out penetrate wider and shorter...
Heavy out penetrates light...
Skinny out penetrates fat.....
High FOC out penetrates low.....
Single bevel out performs double when bone is encountered....
Broadhead and arrow integrity is a must...
Those remain true no matter the shot placement.....O.L.
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RonD,
I'm not a bow/arrow tuning expert by any means, my specialty is sharpening stuff. That's why I suggested you ask people with real life experience, and like O.L. said not guys who "shot a hog one time and...bla, bla bla". You need to talk to people who have a lot of experience hunting hogs with various trad equipment.
Ray Hammond comes to mind first but, I'm sure there are others too. Ray has run a "traditional only" hog guiding service in GA. for years. I'm sure Ray has seen many hogs of all sizes shot with bows of vastly different draw weights and could speak with a level of first hand experience and expertise that few others could match.
You're right, hunting should be fun! My gut feeling is that you most certainly could cleanly kill hogs of 150 lbs or less with your setup. You may need to be picky about your shots but that comes with any hunting. We all need to be picky for one reason or the other no matter what we're shooting.
Ron
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i think im going to order a 95# black widow and make a batch of 1500gr arrows just in case i run into a wooly mammoth while deer hunting :knothead: . Just kidding...this is a very interesting thread :thumbsup: ... has anyone had success with the new Eclipse single bevel broadheads?
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Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
A few facts...
Better tuning out performs poor tuning...
Sharp out penetrates dull....
Broadheads with less cutting diameter and high mechanical advantage out penetrate wider and shorter...
Heavy out penetrates light...
Skinny out penetrates fat.....
High FOC out penetrates low.....
Single bevel out performs double when bone is encountered....
Broadhead and arrow integrity is a must...
Those remain true no matter the shot placement.....O.L.
I love the fact that someone else said that besides me ;)
I totally support what you just said, O.L. ;)
I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal.
Ray ;)
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What is the formula for calculating the FOC?
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It is very important to "cover all the bases" when trying to obtain max penetration when dealing with lower poundage bows. Just yesterday I was reminded of that lesson. My buddy killed a nice buck with the rifle. Just before skinning him I grabbed my bow (a 50 lb. Super Kodiak with B-50 string..however I only draw 44 to 45 lbs) a poplar arrow (11/32 with a weight of 520 grains,3- 5 inch left wing feathers) with a sharp Zwickey No Mercy left hand bevel broadhead. FOC was about 12%. With the buck hanging up from his rear legs, I shot him where the shoulder blade meets the leg bone. The distance was about 12 feet. There was a sharp "crack" sound when the arrow hit. The arrow did not break or fail. The broadhead did not penetrate the bone. There was no bone splits. I was able to remove the broadhead by "working" the arrow up and down, and side to side. The broadhead did not bend. I don't doubt for a second that if I hit a deer that size in the same place with the same setup that I would not have caused a fatal wound. The same bow and arrows with Woodsman and Bear broadheads have given me complete passthrus and very dead deer. Hits were behind the shoulder though. The point of all this? Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required. Its either a "all or nothing" approach. Just an observation.
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Ray, I appreciate that...."I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal."
This notion is what gets folks in trouble thinking about this stuff...This is NOT true...Any projectile as you increase it's velocity, the rate it bleeds off energy goes up by the square of that velocity..Our bows are fixed energy...They are full throttle every shot. The only way we can increase velocity is with lighter arrows...We increased the rate energy is used but we have the same energy as before..The faster we try to do work with a given amount of energy, the less overall work it can do.
SuperK, "The point of all this? Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required. Its either a "all or nothing" approach. Just an observation."
Your right, do well on one thing then ignore others and you've gained nothing, especially the broadhead. You didn't say what BH you were using and that is very thick bone at that spot. Did you read the article in TBM a few months ago Dr. Ed wrote on beveled heads? Right behind that article another fellow was doing the exact same test you did with a 40ish pound selfbow...Multiple complete bone splits and pass throughs. I would think your bow has more horsepower...Another thing to consider, the tuning part...If a person has some tuning issues, the closer you are to the game the more it'll hurt penetration. The FOC part is a BIGGY...With you only being at 12% didn't help you. There is a big jump when you cross over 20%. So don't dismiss the Doc's suggestions without duplicating the major ones like FOC....O.L.
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Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Ray, I appreciate that...."I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal."
This notion is what gets folks in trouble thinking about this stuff...This is NOT true...Any projectile as you increase it's velocity, the rate it bleeds off energy goes up by the square of that velocity..Our bows are fixed energy...They are full throttle every shot. The only way we can increase velocity is with lighter arrows...We increased the rate energy is used but we have the same energy as before..The faster we try to do work with a given amount of energy, the less overall work it can do.
SuperK, "The point of all this? Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required. Its either a "all or nothing" approach. Just an observation."
Your right, do well on one thing then ignore others and you've gained nothing, especially the broadhead. You didn't say what BH you were using and that is very thick bone at that spot. Did you read the article in TBM a few months ago Dr. Ed wrote on beveled heads? Right behind that article another fellow was doing the exact same test you did with a 40ish pound selfbow...Multiple complete bone splits and pass throughs. I would think your bow has more horsepower...Another thing to consider, the tuning part...If a person has some tuning issues, the closer you are to the game the more it'll hurt penetration. The FOC part is a BIGGY...With you only being at 12% didn't help you. There is a big jump when you cross over 20%. So don't dismiss the Doc's suggestions without duplicating the major ones like FOC....O.L.
All things being equal. I took that as this:
The same arrow (same weight, same tip weight, etc...) shot from a 40lb bow and then from a 50lb bow (of the same performance in their respective weights).
The faster the arrow is travelling the more it will penetrate (a hit on the same spot with the same sharpness in the blade).
Is this what you were getting at Ray?
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Tom, He might be but the context of the Doc's work is optimizing the bow you have in your hand. Of course a heavier bow with the same arrow will penetrate better but not as good as if you increased it's mass to the same gr/lb.
SuperK, I found that article, Aug/Sep 2008 TBM, the fellows name is Ron Kulas. His test was similar to yours with a homemade 45# bow shooting a 450gr arrow at 142fps from 10 yards. A hit a couple inches above the shoulder/leg joint resulted in the shoulder blade being completely split and the arrow penetrated to the fletching. You'd think with the less arrow mass that would not have happened. He doesn't say what his FOC is but he was using 170gr Grizzly heads on a POC shaft. I'd guess he was at least 15-18% with that set up.
The FOC factor...It basically shattered all the work Doc Ashby had done years ago in the Natal studies. High FOC's will penetrate as well or better than "normal" FOC that are MUCH heavier. I like arrow mass but only if I can put it in the front end! :) ....O.L.
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the difficulty with that, Tom, is that the same arrow more than likely will NOT be perfectly tuned for BOTH of those bows.
Something will have to likely change- point weight, shaft length, something.
Adding speed should be the last thing we worry about.
At twenty yards and under the performance advantage of adding 10 or 15 feet per second is INCHES of difference in reaching the target.
Besides, momentum is the key to penetration. The resistance to stopping is what we need to be concerned with.
O L Adcock laid down the 9( I can't count too well, but I think that was how many he wrote above) commandments
And arrow placement is the single most important factor in any hunting situation no matter what any of us say: If you put the arrow in the right spot, you can shoot field points.
Unfortunately, after watching a great many trad shooters loose arrows at game, including myself, I am of the opinion that we MUST set up our equipment prepared for the worst possible outcome, and practice like crazy to make the PERFECT SHOT. You can tell us how great a shot you are, and how you have never wounded and lost game all you wish. I'm not certain we are being as honest with ourselves as we should be if that is the tack we are taking.
In preparing this way, and should we have a less than perfect hit, and often when that happens we strike bone, we stand a good chance of breaking that bone, and getting into tissue that can kill the animal.
If on the other hand, you only hit soft tissue, I also want a single bevel head that is spinning through that tissue, to do the most possible damage while its traveling through the animal.
In the final analysis, the original questioner seemed absolutely befuddled by this whole situation and has threatened to stop hunting over it.
In my opinion, you should get some arrows together, and go hunt a hog. If you see a hog that you think is too big for your setup, here's a thought- DON'T shoot it. Move on and shoot the next one. You'll do just fine.
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RonD,
There's a FOC calculator in the How To/Resorces forum. Here's the link:
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000089
Ron
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O L - Didn't mean to seem I was making negative commmets regrading the research but in most case it is looking at exactly the wrong end of the hunting shot to make clean kills. The emphasis
should be place on the accuracy of the shooter.
if all the trad bowhunters could hold all the 4" to 5" groups at 20yds we talking about, they would be at the National Indoors collecting 1000 of dollars. How many trad bowhunters do you know that can put 60 arrows in a 5" group at 20 yds????
while the Dr's research is remarkable and intersting, it does not equal clean kills accruacy does
rusty
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I take that back. the research does not put the emphasis on the wrong end of the shot, we are. the research is neutral, we aren't
rusty
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Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Tom, He might be but the context of the Doc's work is optimizing the bow you have in your hand. Of course a heavier bow with the same arrow will penetrate better but not as good as if you increased it's mass to the same gr/lb.
SuperK, I found that article, Aug/Sep 2008 TBM, the fellows name is Ron Kulas. His test was similar to yours with a homemade 45# bow shooting a 450gr arrow at 142fps from 10 yards. A hit a couple inches above the shoulder/leg joint resulted in the shoulder blade being completely split and the arrow penetrated to the fletching. You'd think with the less arrow mass that would not have happened. He doesn't say what his FOC is but he was using 170gr Grizzly heads on a POC shaft. I'd guess he was at least 15-18% with that set up.
The FOC factor...It basically shattered all the work Doc Ashby had done years ago in the Natal studies. High FOC's will penetrate as well or better than "normal" FOC that are MUCH heavier. I like arrow mass but only if I can put it in the front end! :) ....O.L.
I understand O.L. I was just making sure I understood what he meant.
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
the difficulty with that, Tom, is that the same arrow more than likely will NOT be perfectly tuned for BOTH of those bows.
Something will have to likely change- point weight, shaft length, something.
Adding speed should be the last thing we worry about.
At twenty yards and under the performance advantage of adding 10 or 15 feet per second is INCHES of difference in reaching the target.
Besides, momentum is the key to penetration. The resistance to stopping is what we need to be concerned with.
O L Adcock laid down the 9( I can't count too well, but I think that was how many he wrote above) commandments
And arrow placement is the single most important factor in any hunting situation no matter what any of us say: If you put the arrow in the right spot, you can shoot field points.
Unfortunately, after watching a great many trad shooters loose arrows at game, including myself, I am of the opinion that we MUST set up our equipment prepared for the worst possible outcome, and practice like crazy to make the PERFECT SHOT. You can tell us how great a shot you are, and how you have never wounded and lost game all you wish. I'm not certain we are being as honest with ourselves as we should be if that is the tack we are taking.
In preparing this way, and should we have a less than perfect hit, and often when that happens we strike bone, we stand a good chance of breaking that bone, and getting into tissue that can kill the animal.
If on the other hand, you only hit soft tissue, I also want a single bevel head that is spinning through that tissue, to do the most possible damage while its traveling through the animal.
In the final analysis, the original questioner seemed absolutely befuddled by this whole situation and has threatened to stop hunting over it.
In my opinion, you should get some arrows together, and go hunt a hog. If you see a hog that you think is too big for your setup, here's a thought- DON'T shoot it. Move on and shoot the next one. You'll do just fine.
Ray. I just basically meant all things being equal, the same arrow will penetrate more if it's going 50fps faster. I wasn't delving into spine weight territory.
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No problem Rusty...Accuracy is like tuning, it should go without saying...While the effects of this other stuff isn't so apparent. We could all practice more and that won't hurt! :) The FOC part does tend to tighten groups....O.L.
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Originally posted by TomMcDonald:
All things being equal. I took that as this:
The same arrow (same weight, same tip weight, etc...) shot from a 40lb bow and then from a 50lb bow (of the same performance in their respective weights).
The faster the arrow is travelling the more it will penetrate (a hit on the same spot with the same sharpness in the blade).
Is this what you were getting at Ray?
Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Tom, He might be but the context of the Doc's work is optimizing the bow you have in your hand. Of course a heavier bow with the same arrow will penetrate better but not as good as if you increased it's mass to the same gr/lb.
Exactly Tom...which is why I stated all things being equal in regards to the 2 arrows.
I wasn't trying to speak in context of Dr. Ashby. I was just clearly trying to state a fact of physics.
The arrows are the same diameter, same weight, same material, same broadhead, tuned perfectly, same FOC, etc., etc. so when comparing the 2 arrows the only thing that is different is one of them is going faster than the other.
The faster arrow will out penetrate the slower one within the parameters I laid out....anyone who tells you differently is wrong. BOTH KE and M will be higher with the faster arrow in the situation I was discussing.
Ray ;)
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It’s the same thing with testing FOC or any other differences between 2 arrows.
In order to have an accurate test…you need to eliminate as many of the differences between the arrows as you can to produce a more accurate comparison.
An arrow with higher FOC isn’t a guareentee that it will out penetrate an arrow with lesser FOC…especially if the arrow with higher FOC is way out of tune when compared to the other arrow.
But when you make sure all aspects between the arrows are equal and only change FOC...the outcome should be the arrow with higher FOC should out penetrate than one with lesser.
It's the same principle or testing guidlines as comparing the slow and fast arrow.
Ray ;)
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Exactly Tom...which is why I stated all things being equal in regards to the 2 arrows.
I wasn't trying to speak in context of Dr. Ashby. I was just clearly trying to state a fact of physics.
The arrows are the same diameter, same weight, same material, same broadhead, tuned perfectly, same FOC, etc., etc. so when comparing the 2 arrows the only thing that is different is one of them is going faster than the other.
The faster arrow will out penetrate the slower one within the parameters I laid out....anyone who tells you differently is wrong. BOTH KE and M will be higher with the faster arrow in the situation I was discussing.
Ray ;) [/QB][/QUOTE]
Ray, If in your scenario the arrows are truely identical in every way, then I think only the K.E. would be increased by the faster arrow, not the mass.
The one point that has not realy been addressed is FOC in regards to the e=mc2 equation.
If the both arrows weigh the same, are well tuned, and shot from the same bow at the same speed but one arrow has a far greater foc than the other, the higher foc arrow will certainly get better penetration.
This seems to indicate that Einstein's theory may not be absolute? Hard to believe that a bunch of trad bowhunters could challenge a fundemental law of phyics but, is this not correct??? :confused:
Ron
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
Ray, If in your scenario the arrows are truely identical in every way, then I think only the K.E. would be increased by the faster arrow, not the mass.
Ron
You're right. The arrows mass doesn't change...but it's speed does...and therefore it's Momentum changes.
When determining an arrow's Momentum...speed plays a factor in that...just not as much when tring to determine KE.
Maybe you understood M as Mass when I was using it to abbreviate Momentum???
Ray ;)
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Sharpster,
No change there to the e=mc^2 equation. Same energy, its just that the one with higher foc, uses its energy more effectively (work). Therefore, we probably have not overcome any laws of physics.....yet!
Java Man
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Yup Ray, That's how I mistakenly took it.
Java Man,... That's a bummer, thought that would have been cool. ;)
Ron
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I love these post's, and the info they provide.
I find it interisting that the work that DR. Ashby and others have done to advance our knowledge, funny how most of this has been done by individual bow hunter's and archers and not by the mulit-million dollar bow hunting industry, and maybe thats the way it should be. Thank you all that have spent time and money testing hunting equipment.
Aslo for those that are using e=mc2 to figure arrow performanc, i belive this would be incorrect. No need to use einstein physics when newtonian physiscs works just fine. e=mc2 tels u noting about an arow in flight it would work for converting the entire mass of the arrow if converted into energy e=mc2 (energy=massXthe speed of light squared)
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Doesn't the e in einstein's formula refer to nuclear energy?
As in the energy contained within an atom of helium is equal to the mass of the atom x speed of light squared.
I've never encountered having to use einstein's formula in mechanics ever. As someone said, Newton's theories are what's relevant when dealing with mechanics.
At least that's the way i remember maths, physics and engineering lessons.
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I don't know about all the physics; my young son has a 24" draw and shoots a 50# bow which generates 36-38# at his draw. We have worked on his arrows-5/16 cedar, heaviest and stiffest we can find. A surgically sharp, and I do mean sharp, STOS or Grizzly-145 grain (whichever is around).
The most efficient and quiet bow-with the arrows tuned to match-in our case an ACS CX. 10 strand dyneema string-anyway his set up has had a lot of work tuning, bareshafting and all the rest, on top of all this my son is a very, very good shot. He has killed hogs up to 100# and a sheep that was a little more than that. He knows to stay away from the bigger hogs; but as his power increases so will the size of his kills.
I guess what I am saying in a round about way is the lighter equipment can get the job done; but you really should do extra work on your tuning, shooting and stalking.
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Hello everybody, great topic, personally i'm shooting a 52 pounds recurve bow (very low poundage for France where people like big bow to hunt roedeer ..... )
My last arrow tuning is a 676 grs arrow (340 in front) ...
Something like 13grs / pounds
I've never been under 640 grs with this bow
very good results on Sanglier !!!!!!
Working very well
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Novahunterpa, "I find it interisting that the work that DR. Ashby and others have done to advance our knowledge, funny how most of this has been done by individual bow hunter's and archers and not by the mulit-million dollar bow hunting industry, and maybe thats the way it should be."
Yep...My experience with the big folks employing NS engineers, with testing capablities far beyond us shadetree wantabee's, and deep pockets aren't interested in anything other then the status quo. It's fun watching flight records set by the likes of Hoyt, WinWin, ect..fall to "longbows"...
Bjorn, We need to get him a good string on that thing and see how he likes it! :) ....O.L.
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I am all ears OL-what kind of string are you recommending for Adam?
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Bjorn, check your PM's. :) ...O.L.
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You da' man OL!
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Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Yep...My experience with the big folks employing NS engineers, with testing capablities far beyond us shadetree wantabee's, and deep pockets aren't interested in anything other then the status quo. It's fun watching flight records set by the likes of Hoyt, WinWin, ect..fall to "longbows"...
:) ....O.L.
O.L. Why doest it have to be this way. One would think that the the large arrow and broadhead manufactures would have much more to gain financially in testing and pushing the limits of arow and broadhead technology and putting out the highest quality product they could.
While some products the sell are good,most are just gadgets, that only help there bottom line and have no real value to the bowhunter.
Again ty O.L., the good DR. and the many, others that have tried to advance the sport and push the boundaries, of arrow technology. I just hope that someday you are all appreciated for your contributions and just just buy the trad community but by the bowhunting industry and community (wheelie guy's included)
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this thread kinda makes me wonder how native americans and natives of other continents tuned their equipment. I mean, its easy for us to go online, order shafts, have them delivered to our door, use precision tools to tune them for perfect flight, analyze weights and spines, etc. They musta been good to just eyeball their measurements, feel the right weight, and watch the arrow flight... I read an article in a bowhunting magazine one time that said one tribe (lakota, i believe) 5 arrows was worth a horse. They sure were valuable. just some thoughts....
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^^^^^
Maybe that's why they were such good trackers.
:p
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OK, my taxidermist friend was trying to get his son set up for archery deer season. His son is using a 30# Bear Cub bow. He was trying to work up some heavy wood arrows for him and I stopped him. Instead I set him up with Easton Axis Junior (skinniy carbon shafting) shafts (left full length at 28"). 100 grain Grizzly broadheads with 100 grain steel inserts (200 total grains). This made for a just under 500 grain arrow. He limited his son to 12 yard shots and he was very accurate at that range. His son shot a doe and a 5 point buck in a weeks time and was probably drawing 25". He had a very short season for an 11 year old boy, but with the right setup and as Rusty pointed out so correctly, the right accuracy, he was a successful hunter with extremely lightweight gear. I'm sure that a more modern bow with modern string would have upped his speed, however the sharp Grizzly broadhead, heavier FOC and skinny carbon shafts shot accurately were the driving force here (every pun intended).
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Ray, That was good advice...The skinny arrow part of this equation, I have no doubt it has something to do with cross sectional density. All of the Doc's recommendations are nothing more then energy retention and drag reduction. In the flight stuff, many think we try to get arrows as light as possible, nope....The arrows I was shooting in the 18kg class last year were solid carbon (which isn't light) with music wire core up front for high FOC...Sound familiar? :) ....O.L.
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O.L,
Thanks. Have you discovered a formula yet to determine the balance between arrow weight, arrow speed and FOC to determine the best arrow for flight competition...or is it just trial and error still right now?
Ray ;)
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Ray, No formula....There seems to be a best compromise with wood arrows around 5gr/lb. Carbons seem to be lower and seems to be tied to the cross sectional density. We can pack more mass in a smaller space! With the same external diamensions the heavier ones definately carry better.....O.L.