Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: LATradHunter on November 06, 2008, 11:01:00 PM
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hey gang, im wondering about arrow weight. Im mostly using easton epic 500's...30" with 155grains up front. at 7.5gpi thats 225gr of shaft, an 8gr nock, and 155gr broadhead for 388gr total weight. im shootin em out of a 45# recurve at my 28" draw. is this an adequate hunting weight arrow? everyone else seems to use 500+ grains. they bareshaft really well and fly true. any advice? Thanks a million :D
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388 is too light, especially when you could just as easily use a heavier around 500-600 grains. 388 gr. is significantly less lethal than 5-600.
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you are at 8.6 gpp. nothing wrong with that. A WELL TUNED 8.6gpp shaft with a sharp broadhead will kill just about anything.
With that said a well tuned 500 grain shaft (11.1)gpp with a sharp broadhead will do the same thing and also get through some bone if need be
JMO
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
388 is too light, especially when you could just as easily use a heavier around 500-600 grains. 388 gr. is significantly less lethal than 5-600.
I disagree. The weight of an arrow does not determine how lethal it can be - arrow placement, penetration, and trajectory are better methods to determine how lethal a shot can be.
With a lighter arrow your trajectory will be flatter, and your arrow speed will be up. Your total KE will be down, however due to the arrow weight. A heavier arrow will increase penetration greatly.
To play around with a heavier arrow, stuff an arrow or two with some weedwacker line (I use three strands of .105HD full length, they add around 100gr to the total arrow), it'll raise the arrow's weight but won't effect the spine and force you to retune. I guarentee they'll hit your target a lot harder, quiet your bow down some, and possibly inspire some confidence.
Doesn't hurt to try it.
:thumbsup:
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ok..i also have some 29" easton 2117 legacy's. theyre 12gpi for a total weight of 508gr. they also shoot well but SHOULD be overspined for 45#...anybody else using overspined aluminums? according to the chart i oughta be using 1916's or 2016's...
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An overspined arrow will be less effective then a lighter one flying perfect. Put it where it needs to go and drag out your deer.
Steve
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You mean because a chart says you should use something else you will discard what your eyes tell you about them (they shoot well) and shoot something different?
I disagree about the weed whacker line..it DOES affect spine...the DYNAMIC spine.
Arrow weight is relative to the draw weight of your bow...no one thinks someone shooting a 45 lb bow should be shooting a 800 grain arrow....there is a window of weight relative to your draw weight that will work ...
Trust your eyes..not the charts.
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i shoot 55-60# bows when i hunt and my arrows wiegh in between 650-750grs. when it come to arrow weight i like to think of the porche and the train anology. if both are going the same speed, which one hits the hardest? 200gr. could mean the difference between bouncing off a rib bone or busting through it.
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What are you hunting? Whitetails I assume? How deep into the ground do you want to go after you pass through the deer?
All things considered, a heavier bow with heavier arrow will obviously out penetrate a lighter one(da) With that said, you will be better served using the set up you have, learning to shoot it well and being confident with it. You have plenty of bow/arrow for whitetails.
Good luck - Bob Urban
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everyone else seems to use 500+ grains. they bareshaft really well and fly true.
Shoot'em!!!
Brett
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a Texas whitetail doe (2 yr old), field dress 65#. 5" width chest where the heart is, 9" width at the back ribs.
they duck at lightspeed. 320gr arrow doing 210fps will shot thru anything she has and get there faster.
would I shoot this rig at a moose. not likely. ya rig for what you are hunting.
rusty
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Remember O.L.'s lesson about center shot and cut past center arrows. Over spine in the chart does not necessarily matter.
I've decided to drive a train versus a porche.
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Carbon arrow at 8.6 gpp is a fine set up for deer, medium hogs, etc. For monster boars I would use a heavier arrow. Good arrow flight comes first before heavy arrow - per Dr A.
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Here's an idea about a heavy FOC arrow: I shoot a heavier bow and my arrow weighs 630 gr. with 20% FOC. My first trad deer was killed 2 days ago ata very steep angle. 30' u below me and only 5 yds away. My shot placement was great for a less angle shot but in this case the arrow entered high and tight behind shoulder and went straight down, to the brisket, barely passing her center-line.
She only ran about 70 yds or so, but through such heavy brush I had to crawl the whole way almost. My lower limb had struck my stand reducing power/speed and thus penetration. I had what looked like 18-20" of arrow sticking up out of her when she ran off and that arrow was beating into everything. However, the arrow didn't come out of her. I found it 3 ft from where she was laying. Heavy front (heavy, period) could have possibly helped hold that arrow in her chest in my opinion. With all her running and "beating around the bush" the broadhead actually sawed a much larger wound where it had been working up/down and back/forth. Her lungs were in tatters and the entrance hole got enlarged to nearly 3".
I think a lighter arrow might have more easily been bumped out ? :campfire: :campfire:
ben
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Well, the train vs porsche theory works if you want to push a moose off the track at low speed.
If you are hunting whitetails or mule deer, the 388 is plenty if it's flying perfectly. The same theory used to be applied to rifles, but also fell to the wrong side. A 223 will kill a whitetail as dead, and more quickly, than a 45-70 when hit in the boiler room.
If you were going for elk or moose, I would tell you to go to a little heavier arrow...say 450 or so. Believe what you are seeing and disregard the ultra heavy suggestions...there are diminishing returns on both ends. I have used between 8 and 10 grains per pound for for over forty years and have had no problems with penetration.
Frankly, I don't ever want to be hit with even a 300 grain arrow with a sharp broadhead. A whitetails ribs are about the size of a carpenter's pencil and are easily penetrated. Work on your accuracy with the rig you have and be confident.
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My arrows and broadhead weigh in at 438 gr not including what the nock, feathers and insert weigh.
I have shot two deer this year and had pass throughs on both of them. One was a complete pass through and the other went all the way through and stuck out about 6" on the other side. One shot was at about 10 yards and the other was about 20 yards.
I'm shooting a 50 lb bow at 28". My broadhead is a 125 gr Magnus 2 blade that is extreamly sharp.
My arrows are not much heavier than yours but I am satisfied with the results. If you have fine arrow flight and your broadheads are razor sharp I don't see why your set up will not work.
Adding weight to the inside of the shaft:
I tried this by inserting aquarime tubing in one of my arrows. It was very tight and I could not shake the arrow hard enough to make it rattle. I went to the back yard and shot the modified arrow along with a regular arrow and filmed the sequence. I filmed from the target back to me to get an idea of what a deer would hear. The modified arrow buzzed and the non modified arrow was alot quieter. The modified arrow was also alot more sluggish and would have caused me to reprogram my brain to compensate.
Might want to test an arrow the same way to see if there are any changes in sound or flight before hunting with it if you go that route.
I'll be the first to admit I may have done something wrong with the modification as I am a rookie but I know what works for me and I'm sticking with it.
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As pointed out, what you are hunting is a very important part of the equation. A sharp broadhead in the correct spot with your combination will be fine on whitetails and other thin skinned animals. Keep'um sharp and good hunting.
Bill Turner
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If they are shooting accurately I wouldn't change anything. After the season is over you may want to experiment but now is not the time.
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I'am a firm believer in a heavy arrow. I guess my question would be why shoot the lighter arrow? What is the advantage? Remember we are talking bow distances (20 yards or less). The trajectory advantage is minimal - with in a couple of inches or less. The Kinetic energy advantage of a heavy arrow is signifcantly better at bow distance. Kinetic energy always equals penetration capability. Unless you feel confident that you can shoot a deer and miss bone every time I don't understand the argument for light arrows?
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No one is arguing for "light" arrows....he is shooting about 9 grains per pound, that has been suggested by most bow manufacturers for decades. If you like heavy, then shoot heavy, but figures on paper don't always present themselves as such in the real world.
I've hunted deer with a bow for over forty years, and have seen what arrows will do...from light to very heavy; mostly it's how far they stick out the other side, or how deep they go into the ground on the other side.
Scientists have logically figured out that bumble bees can't fly. It's amazing what happens when the rubber really meets the road.
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I don't post alot and try to stay away from some of the more controversal topics but I just don't get the point of shooting light arrows. I guess that what I can infer from some of these suggestions is that if I feel that I can shoot it accurately then that is fine. I can shoot a 22 cal. very accurately out to 50 yards - confident to hit the heart of a deer so I guess that is enough caliber for deer. I know people that have killed deer with a 22 cal. so that must be enough caliber for deer. I don't believe that for one minute and hope that you don't either. I respect the animals that I hunt and use the most efficient bow weight and arrow weight that I can. Why wouldn't you?
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Okay, let me make you a little bet. Take a small diameter carbon or aluminum arrow and front load it to about 388 to 400 grains and put a good cut on contact head on the end.
Then take a 500 grain arrow that isn't front loaded, and a bigger diameter....say 23/64th's cedar.
I will bet that the carbon penetrates as well or better when shot from the same bow, providing both arrows are flying perfectly.
There is a lot more to it than weight alone....just like theres more to a bow's performance than weight alone. Get some honest testing then we can debate it more intelligently.
And I wouldn't make any assumptions about how much respect anyone else has for the game they hunt....especially some who have been doing it for five decades.
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George - I love your posts and really respect your opinions but if you really believe that then why did you say to jump up to 450gr. for moose?
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Umm, because moose are bigger, with bigger,thicker ribs, and a tougher hide?
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Martin guy - Thanks for making my point. More weight equals better penetration.
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Adirondackman.... Now....I would suggest heavier for moose...because moose have thicker hide, and bigger rib bones...probably three times the thickness of an average whitetail. The average person hunts deer, with pencil size ribs and less than a foot from side to side.
I have had my own eyes opened just this year by fooling around with smaller diameter arrows, that are lighter and have more frontal weight, and I would not hesitate to use them with confidence, if I were shooting ten less pounds.
I know fellers who get pass throughs on whitetails regularly with 45 pound bows and 400 grain arrows. I'm not guessing at it....I've been witness to it.
I personally shoot arrows that are app. 500 to 520 grains on my 55 pound bow. That is just a little over 9 grains per pound. The problem with saying this arrow is too light, or that one is too heavy, just flies in the face of historic fact. There is a line of diminishing returns of course, but we can't make a blanket statement that only a certain level is correct.
I'll take a perfectly flying 388 grain arrow with a sharp broadhead on a 45 pound bow and have short blood trails. Have you ever read Jack Howard's testing that he did a few decades ago? It's quite interesting reading, and if you keep an open mind, eye opening as well.
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George - I will consider your argument and close my post with this thought. Grains per pound has never had anything to do with the hunting efficiency of an arrow. It has to do with the efficiency of the bow to launch that arrow.
Example: 8.5 gpp 45lb bow - 383 gr. arrow
70lb bow - 595 gr. arrow
From a grains per pound argument your telling me that these 2 arrows will have the same penetration? This is not true. In fact you have to shoot a heavier arrow with a lighter bow to be effective on game.
My argument is to shoot the highest grain arrow that your bow can shoot well, thats all.
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So my use of a 425 gr arrow to take 3 deer means I did not respect them? Or the elk I killed last year with the same setup :rolleyes: :(
Steve
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well I think it's more appropriate to think of it in these terms- I used to put the kids in the back seat of the chevy wagon with a box of crayons and drive 500 miles to granny's for thanksgiving.
Now we'd have them in carseats a d strapped in- wouldn't dream of doing like we used to!!!
No way I didn't respect my kids- we didn't know any better but we do now.
Shooting the maximum weight possible and achieving perfect flight provides substantial benefits- quieter bow- greater downrange momentum- and enables one to avoid refining his or her setup whenever they chase a differnt critter. Sometimes the hair covered computer (or in my case the bald computer) is very resistant to retraining especially in moments of high stress.
Shooting the most you can comfortably shoot accurately in both bow weight and arrow irrefutably provides advantages over going the other way.
Add to that mix a well sharpened head and you are ready for anything be it Orc or grizzly or whitetail. I want to see my arrow go 20 feet out the other side of a doe so it falls out the other side of a 200 on boar
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Originally posted by George D. Stout:
I know fellers who get pass throughs on whitetails regularly with 45 pound bows and 400 grain arrows. I'm not guessing at it....I've been witness to it.
I grew up around it.
Looking back at the group I started bowhunting with -- friends and family who'd been bowhunting whitetails since the early 50's -- I can't remember anyone using more than 45#, and those were recurves using Dacron strings and shooting aluminum arrows. I also can't remember anyone having problems blowing through deer after deer, year after year.
It worked well for a lot of decades, so why do we think it won't work now, especially with better arrows and faster strings? Trying to re-invent the wheel is fun, but it doesn't change the blacktop on the road.
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My 400-425gr arrows have been killing whitetail deer for a long time from my 44# and my 52# bows.
I wieghed some of my carbons the other day and one dozen was 390gr each. I've had many pass throughs with my set up, one with the 52# bow usring the same arrows right through the shoulder and out the other side.
Heavy arrows are fine too.
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Originally posted by LATradHunter:
hey gang, im wondering about arrow weight. Im mostly using easton epic 500's...30" with 155grains up front. at 7.5gpi thats 225gr of shaft, an 8gr nock, and 155gr broadhead for 388gr total weight. im shootin em out of a 45# recurve at my 28" draw. is this an adequate hunting weight arrow? everyone else seems to use 500+ grains. they bareshaft really well and fly true. any advice? Thanks a million :D
It really all boils down to a balance between choices....but for me...the 2 most important factors that have the greatest effect on an arrow's penetrating potential on an animal are "Broadhead Choice and Arrow Tuning" as long as the bow's draw weight and arrow weight are within acceptable or legal weights for the type of animal being hunted.
A basic rule of thumb is to use as heavy a bow as you can comfortably handle under the specific circumstances you will be hunting in and use an arrow that's somewhere around 7g. to 14g./lbs. or so.
Whatever you choose...just make sure your equipment is tuned to the best of your ability and you have a good sharp broadhead on the end of it.
Than it's all up to you to put it where you are suppose to...and even when you don't...a heavy fast arrow isn't going to guareentee a kill.
Whitetail deer aren't armored trucks ;) It really doesn't take much to penetrate one and kill it.
Ray ;)
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That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, Jason..too subjective. For every guy you know who didnt have any problem and blew right through deer, some other fella has 15 other fellas who lost a bunch of deer due to no penetration, etc.
I think it comes down to something similar to what was said earlier- you can probably kill a whitetail with a 22 almost every time you shoot one...is it the weapon of choice, though? I don't believe it would be.
If you chase a moose, do you want to do it with a lightweight whitetail setup? I bet not. So then you have to set up your bow differently, learn to shoot it well, go on your trip, come home, set it up for your lightweight setup and relearn shooting it cause deer season is coming. Too much work for me, and probably a few whitetails and moose are glad we'll go through that rigamarole too!!!
On the other hand, what's so bad about shooting THROUGH a bunch of whitetails by 30 feet and then using the same setup to guarantee the moose gets two holes in him as well? Nothing, in my book.
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LA you didn't say what you were hunting so I assume it's deer. Your setup is fine...and I'm not talking about arrow weight (which is fine btw) I'm talking about your arrows flying true. There is nothing more important than that. If you are accurate in your shooting, you are fine. My dad never used more than a 40lb recurve and had no problems shooting through deer for decades. Yes, I'd use more weight and more arrow for moose but for deer there's no need.
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thanks guys...ive decided to either try some 100gr brass inserts for my carbons or go with some 2016 aluminums for deer. Ill keep my lighter arrows for small stuff... truth be told most of the time when i decide to go "Deer" hunting i end up stalking rabbits, which is a blast for me. I've always had a tendency to like small game hunting more than the big stuff. :) Theyre plentiful...and tasty :bigsmyl:
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Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, Jason..too subjective. For every guy you know who didnt have any problem and blew right through deer, some other fella has 15 other fellas who lost a bunch of deer due to no penetration, etc.
I suppose so, but in 20+ years of bowhunting I can honestly say I've never known a single person who's lost a deer due to lack of penetration. Shot placement? Yes. Penetration? No.
For decades, sub-50-pound stickbows were the norm for bowhunters pursuing whitetails. Literature and production numbers bear that out. That's more than anecdotal. That's history. A lot of bowhunters today seem to have forgotten that.
I think it comes down to something similar to what was said earlier- you can probably kill a whitetail with a 22 almost every time you shoot one...is it the weapon of choice, though? I don't believe it would be.
Comparing 45# recurves to .22 rifles isn't exactly an apples-to-apples analogy. I don't recall ever hearing a time when .22's were the norm for whitetail hunters. Now .30-30's are a different story, and despite a hundred or so years of evidence to the contrary, there are some people today who don't think they're adequate for whitetails. So I suppose bowhunters aren't alone in forgetting their past.
If you chase a moose, do you want to do it with a lightweight whitetail setup? I bet not.
Ironically enough, I blew completely through my bull moose with a setup I've read here and elsewhere is supposedly inadequate for whitetails. ;)
On the other hand, what's so bad about shooting THROUGH a bunch of whitetails by 30 feet and then using the same setup to guarantee the moose gets two holes in him as well? Nothing, in my book.
Absolutely nothing. But that's quite different than saying people shouldn't hunt whitetail unless their equipment is capable of blowing through a moose.
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A heavy arrow is function of silence and lethality is part of silence
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If your hunting set up will pass thru a ripe watermelon it will pass thru a deer.
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This is the sort of informed debate that allows us to consider alternate viewpoints, weigh facts and make informed decisions. For me, this is a thought provoking exchange.
Like many of you, I have successfully harvested whitetails with arrows that ranged from 8 to 14 gr/lb of draw weight. Each of those arrows achieved complete pass through. 540 gr aluminums to 800 gr hickory arrows.
I do not have the history in traditional archery that many of you do, nor have I shared camp with some of the pioneers of the sport. Does anyone know what the pioneers used? My guess is that we may see the same range of opinions in their selections as we see here. What was Fred Bear's set-up? What did Paul Schafer shoot from those 80+ lb bows he shot?
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If it ain't broke it don't need fixin.
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Well here is my thoughts. I will always shoot a heavy arrow for a couple of reasons.
Unlike a bullet there is no increase in wasted meat because of excess shock to the meat. So I believe you can never have too much penetration potential. A heavy arrow will give you more potential.
Heavy arrows are quiet out of bows.
If I want to shoot a moose, a grizzly, a white tail, or a rabbit I use the same arrow. I don't have to have 4 sets of arrows. I always will shoot the same way no matter what I am hunting. I don't have to moose hunt practice or rabbit practice all of my practice is relevant to now matter what I am hunting.
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Well, this one has gotten borderline nasty eh? Guess I'll throw my hat in the ring and see if I help or hurt things....
Couple points, An arrow that is heavy in one bow will be light in a heavier bow.
A grain weight that is medium to heavy out of a strong bow will be grossly heavy in a light bow.
The better shot you are, the less you need to rely on a heavy arrow to compensate for a chance misplaced shot.
It's all about moderation even if you are talking about how heavy you should go. I say, moderately heavy for the DRAW WEIGHT OF THE BOW.
A 400 grain arrow from a 40 pound bow is (to my mind) moderately heavy at ten grains per pound. If shooting 8 grains per pound, that is the low end of heavy. 500 grains would be borderline too heavy as it would start affecting performance. Sure it would hit hard and penetrate well if properly tuned but trajectory suffers. Of course, the standard response is that "if you are hunting with a light bow, use heavy arrows and keep your shots under 15 yards." (Or something similar. We've seen versions of that line thousands of times here.) But honestly, as George, Jason and others have said, that 8 grain/pound arrow will shoot through pretty much any deer out there. The trajectory will be pretty much the same from a 40 pound bow as a 60 pounder if the grains per pound are the same. Honestly, shooting 60, 70 or 90 pound bows for deer is like using a .300 win mag or .416 rigby rifle. Overkill plain and simple. Then too, do guys who shoot those heavy weights need to shoot the heaviest arrows they can out of their bows? Nope.
Not nocking heavy bows, I shoot a tad over 60 and don't consider it heavy, just comfortable and I'm confident of a pass through on any deer I shoot but what about someone like my 13 year old daughter? She'll be shooting a 40# recurve and I'll go with the heaviest arrow that will fly well. I expect that will be around the 10 or 11 grain/pound range but I'll test it with lighter arrows front loaded to make the weight I want and see what FLYS best. Honestly, for her, I'd probably go with an extra heavy and tell her to keep her shots in close (remember that line above?...) But, if she was able to hit a tennis ball regular out to 20 yards, the lighter(medium heavy), faster arrow that still flies well would be the more efficient choice. Not more efficient by penetration standards but by accuracy, trajectory and distance standards. Sure it wouldn't be the BEST penetrator but it would be more than efficient enough to shoot through a deer if properly placed.
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Jason, history or personal experience...even extensive personal experience, means nothing to some folks. It's really a wonder we ever killed anything before these newborn traditional bowhunters came aboard to save us :saywhat:
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i didnt know this was such a controversial topic. Thanks for the replies! :) Its great how many viewpoints can all come together and give advice, each good in its own way one this site.
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Did anyone mention that the most important thing is that the arrow be heavy enough to absorb the energy of the bow so it doesn't damage the bow when you shoot? Which is a fact. Aside from that I pretty much agree with Dave which is just my opinion.
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I think if you wait for the ideal shot opportunity (1), make an accurate shot (2) and the deer doesn't move (3), the 400-450 grain arrow with just about any sharp broadhead should work fine for whitetails.
In my experience, I can wait for the ideal shot opportunity. I'm not perfect so I'm apt to blow even easy shots once in a while and deer have moved even when they appeared calm before. Personally, I'm going to get as good of an arrow for penetration as I can so when #2 and #3 don't go right, I have a better chance of things going my way.
Jason
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The way I understand it, Fred Bear's theory was get as close to 10 grains per pound as you can, and don't stray 10% either way. For example, if you had a 50# bow, his ideal arrow weight would be 500 grains, and anything from 450 to 550 grains would be acceptable.
This year I have been hunting with two bows, 43# and 45#, and my hunting arrows average 440 grains +/-. It gives me good cast out to around 25 yards and plenty of penetration.
It seems to me like 10 grains per pound is a "happy medium". 11-12 GPP+ arrows will definitely penetrate better, but it seems to me that when you're trying to shoot instinctively it's a lot harder to judge "arrow drop" around the 20 yard mark. I think you have to have a combination of adequate speed and sufficient arrow weight for optimal results.
When we shoot 3-D, I shoot different arrows, around the 8.5-9 GPP mark, but I'm not concerned with penetration when it's 3-D time.
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Big Al....the 11/12gpp will only penetrate better if they are flying perfectly and are of same diameter with same head. I personally use arrows around 9 to 10 grains per pound, but I've seen what the small diameter shafts will do even at lighter weights. There are too many variables to throw a blanket over one factor.
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George, I agree with ya on that one. Those heavier Axis-style HIT shafts penetrate like nobody's business. But when it comes to a deer's boiler room, I think what's really being debated is "how far do you want your arrow to stick in the dirt on the exit side, 4 inches or 8 inches?" ;-) JMHO, of course.
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I agree with you partner. And, even being an extremely ol phart in this sport, I still learn something new all the time. Gotta' love that.
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if you take the penetration factor out of the question "do i need a heavy arrow", there are reasons to shoot a heavy arrow. for yrs I hunted with 65 to 70 pound HH big fives. I used hickory arrows which gave me arrows in the 700 gr range. I didn't do it for penetration per se but that was the trajectory burned in my instinctive groove. first shot accruacy is the most important thing there is in bowhunting. your instinctive groove is based on arrows speed assuming ya don't change your anchor and draw length. even today if I get an arrow in the 160 to `170 fps i fall right back into my instinctive groove........
rusty