Please bear with me.
While I choose to shoot traditionally now and then, I hunt with others that don't. I don't force my opinions on others, thats not who I am - however I chose to share this on another board I frequent in the hopes that someone might pause and think..
I had an interesting weekend.
I'll readily admit, my eyes have been opened from shooting traditionally. Shots that I thought were slam dunk have become a hard look, an evaluation of my ability to the leathality of my shot. I hate to say I've begun second guessing things, but I've started taking a stern look at what distances and shot angles are appropriate when taking game for me.
Case in point. I had three does come within at least 30 yrds of me this weekend. All broadside, all shots that I would normally - read as pre-traditional - consider a shooter type scenario. I held all shots, for one reason or another deciding that I didn't care for the angle of the animal, the agitation level of the animal, the time of day that could result in a late night bloodtrailing with possible rain on the horizon.. I've started to take into account variables that previously haven't really mattered to me.
Here's where it gets interesting, at least for me.
A fellow hunter, one that I enjoy hunting with, was with me. I don't necessarily consider him (or myself for that matter) to be a fanastic judge of the situation, but responds well to pressure and the decision making process. I feel he made a bad choice that night.
I passed on a doe at 31yds as ranged by my Nikon. It was late, rain was coming, surrounding area was not conducive to trailing in my opinion - so I let her walk. She walked straight into my partner, who didn't hesitate on the shot. I watched the hit, and thought it was solid from my vantage point. After a bit, I walked from my position to the point of impact, and ranged my buddy's stand. 32yrds. I asked him when he got down to me what he shot the doe at - 23yrds he said. We found the arrow, and it was covered in fat, with white hair, the blood trail was steady red, but sparse.
I decided to take up the trail immediately due to the oncoming rain. After tracking through the woods, through the corn field, through the tall grass, we hit a cut hay field. I've never had such a terrible time blood trailing as I did going from leaf to leaf in a cut hay field following blood spatter. It took almost 2 hours to cross 20 acres, all the while listening to "we should give up, this is taking too long, we'll find her in the morning..." .
Eventually, after kicking her up an hour later in a small stand of woods much to our south, I had to agree.
I didn't sleep well, knowing the hit wasn't solid. So at first light I packed up and went back to the spot of last blood. It was the most unusual pattern, fresh blood north, south, east, west - all no more than 20 feet and then nothing. I looked for hours, every now and then I've find a spot on a leaf, then nothing. It was a proverbial needle and in a haystack.
I hated to give up, but eventually I just ran out of help. I had no more blood, my buddy was content to loose the shot, and the response I got back was "at least it was only a doe".
Maybe I've changed, I don't know. My perceptions have really changed from shooting a traditional bow, with my limited range I've become so much more particular with shot placement and range. I don't care if it's a doe or a buck, they deserve my best to try and kill them as humanely and quickly as possible.
If that means I pass on the shot, I pass on the shot.
Something's happened to me this year. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm definately aware that it's happened. Take what you will from this story, while I won't brow beat my hunter partner of years for my opinion of his candor, I would encourage you to take a hard look at what each of you is truely capable of.
What if you where on the other side of that arrow?
I appreciate the moment to clear my head,
Chris
:coffee:
Congrats you are a traditional archer and most of all a hunter. When you get that deer (doe or buck) within your range and make a good clean kill you will have a greater feeling of acomplishment than your buddy. (not putting him down at all)
I dont think it had to do with shooting trad gear, it had to do with the mindset that brought you to love to shoot trad gear. The same thing happened to me before I started shooting trad again, and I just "happened" to go back to my roots because of it.
Congratulations on your conscious though. It will lead you in the right direction as it has done for me.
--c--
Feel the same way. Passed on a really big 7 point the other morning at 15 yards, because he gave me nothing but a quartering to angle. After telling a buddy about it, he said, "You should have shot him". I just told him I felt better about letting him walk than taking a less than perfect shot.
I think most "traditional" hunters are possessed of a well developed conscience. Of course, there are always exceptions. The fact that we choose a more simplistic method is many times a natural progression in maturity and respect for the animals we pursue.
About the only thing I disagree with you on is your post title. There is no "crisis" in conscience. It's your own to evaluate and interpret. I wouldn't worry about my buddy's decision to shoot, rather I would consider more the attitude after the shot. The fact of the matter is, we don't know if that's normally a good scenario for him or not. From what you posted, he obviously misinterpreted the range, but that probably happens more times than not without the benefit of electronic aids.
Making a marginal shot certainly does not make a bad man. Taking a marginal shot may or may not make a poor hunter, depending on your own standards. It's up to you to decide if his attitude about it is enough to affect your hunting association.
I've come to the conclusion that my opinions (or anyone else's) are not going to change most people. The best we can hope for is to find a few like-minded folks to call friends. Then again, even the best of friends will eventually disagree on some issue or another.
Thank you for the story. I have run into the same thing out there in the woods, and I am glad to hear from yet another like-minded hunter. Being a gal, hearing the words "only a doe" gets my hackles up, as well as saddens me. A life is a life, and it is all she has.
Killdeer
What crisis? You acted on your ethics. You seemed to do all you could to find the deer even though you had no part in its 'wounding?'. I would be proud to hunt with anyone who is guilded by such a conscious, such as you.
In my opinon there is no such thing as ONLY anything, all prey deserves as much respect as I can give, irrespective of species, sex or size.
Watt
I feel the same way....one life is as valuable as another regardless of headgear or lack there of.
One thing I have learned over the years, on an evening hunt, if I dont see it go down...i wait till morning. A dead deer isnt going anywhere, a marginally hit deer will leave the county if you jump it out of its bed....
We as hunters and conservationist owe it to the game we are hunting, our fellow hunters and the non-hunting public to be as ethical as we can. Passing on a shot that we feel does not ensure a humane and quick kill only goes to show that we as hunters have progressed and evolved. Everyone who hunts, both veteran and newbie should take heed to your thoughts and story.
I hestitated 15+ years ago to come "back" to traditional equipment for the same reasons of conscience. I was afraid I'd not be good enough to successfully take a deer and place my shots consistently.
Then it happened w/ a compound. 22 yards, clear shot... hit a single tiny branch of a green briar sticking straight up I didn't see...and it hit far back, deflecting the light arrows so popular back then (and now?) with modern bow shooters.
I watched that buck lie down, within 15 yards in thick stuff...couldn't shoot... state boundary line was 75 yards away and not huntable--couldn't trail or recover. I was trapped and couldn't risk getting down to try a shot.
So I waited for the deer to die. It was a perfect liver shot. No blood where it lie for 2 hrs... and that was the most gut-wrenching 2 hrs of my life. I almost quit hunting with a bow--- period.
From then on, it became a situation where I KNEW (for me) that I will never see EVERY obstacle in the woods between me and a deer, under any conditions, and that I was limiting all my shots, compound or not, to inside 20 yards in the woods...30 in the field cause I practiced it regularly, but 20 in the woods with brush around.
From there..it was easy to realize that I didn't need all the gizmos to shoot 20 yards and I slowly gained confidence to switch to the simple stick and string of my youth! Never looked back.
Still limit myself to 20 yards or in... shoot and shoot decently at 30..even farther, under field conditions, but...wont' take the chance on game... they move and things just seem to show up I didn't see.
Like Killy says...life is precious... all life. I take seriously the responsibility for trying to end any life.
Congratulations. The choices you've made and where you now are is way beyond a question of equipment!
I wouldn't call this a crisis either. You did the absolute right thing, and that is honorable. One of the things I treasure most about this community is the respect that is present here; for fellow hunters and for the animals we hunt.
Glad you shared this story. Whenever I try to explain to others about my range or comfort level with various situations I feel somewhat awkward because I have so many limitations. Then I always think: "taking a life shouldn't ever be easy."
Well done.
Sarah
excellent.. thanks for sharing, the comment "it was only a doe" is just wrong, sorry your buddy lost his deer.
I think we owe it to ourselves and to the game we hunt to take only "high percentage" shots. By that I mean shots that we have practiced enough, or made enough in the past, that there is no reason to believe we won't make again. What a "high percentage" shot means would vary from hunter to hunter, but I think most ethical hunters would pass on a shot they could only make 2 out of 3 times. On the other hand,we need to be realistic enough to know that it is never going to be 100% either.
I hunt ducks, and even though I don't take shots at ducks I don't believe I can kill, some of them do glide off in a way that you know they've been hit, particularly in these days of steel shot, and will probably die a half mile off in the tulies. I fish and know that some of the fish I hook and lose will probably die, particularly if one swims away with one of my lures in its mouth.
I suppose the bigger and smarter the animal is, the worse we feel if one is wounded and not recovered. But whatever the animal, as was mentioned above, it still just has one life to give.
I feel bad about every duck and fish I lose, and try to recover those I can, and I'm sure I would feel worse if I hit a deer and couldn't revover it. I even have a moment of sorrow when I kill a deer and do recover it.
But when you've done everything you reasonably can to recover a wounded animal, and can't find it, then that should be that. If you took a shot you shouldn't have, then that is something worth pondering in the future. Otherwise, if someone continues to have negative feelings about it, I would say that person probably didn't carefully think through all the probable ramifications of hunting with the bow and arrow.
Wihill,
Although your buddy didn't say anything I bet he learned a big lesson. You showed him with your actions what is right. I bet he is still thinking on it.
Sometimes a bad lesson is just what it takes to learn many good things.
When I was a child my brother and I killed a chipmunk with a stick. When I brought it to my father he asked me and my brother what we were going to do with it. I cried for a long time because I knew what he really meant. Bad lesson but I have carried it with me to this day.
I think it is telling that on the other site there has only been 3 replies to the story. It just seems like trad guys and gals get it. Hate to generalize but sure seems like it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Tell:
I think it is telling that on the other site there has only been 3 replies to the story. It just seems like trad guys and gals get it. Hate to generalize but sure seems like it.
X2
Every hunt contains moments, sometimes hours, of conscience. We are dealing with life and death, choices and consequences. It sounds to me like you spearheaded a thoughtful and thorough attempt to recover a marginal hit deer. Kudos!
If it was all about killing a deer I would have to use claymores.
I was once standing in front of a IBEP class in Pittsburgh for one of the managed hunting groups there. A fellow was talking about a big buck (150" class) he had taken from a previous year. When asked to relay the story with the whole class at attention he refused. He went on to reply that it wasnt a big deal.
After class during some goodbye chatter we got to discussing the hunt of the big buck. He then told the entire story to me.
The giant buck you see, was 55 yards from his perch. 55 yards is BIG TROUBLE here in Penns woods. Of course the shot deflected and gut shot the deer. He found it 2 days later and had to finish it off. He had the buck mounted but was not very proud of how it was claimed. Shame too.
Imagine taking a 150 class deer, and NOT wanting to tell the story. And then also seeing that mount everyday and still feeling the hunt was a degraded claim of victory?? What of the animals majesty? The hunt itself? The prowess and woodsmanship skills of the hunter??
One of the IBEP segments had to do with yardage estimation and actually you cant imagine how many - 85% I bet- completely miss the yardage in OPEN fields within 20 yards!! I used to hold a pencil at my pants pocket and NOT ONE time did experienced hunters recognize the pencil, yet they could tell that in my other hand I was holding something, "like maybe a stick". 20 Yards open field.....
The "It's only a doe" thing gets me going as well. Yeah like does are just incubators.
I believe that those of us that agree with you, would tend to accept the consciousness of a "crisis" that the entire hunt, the memory relies upon.
You did well.
Great story and well written. Thanks for your sharing.
don't worry what "others" might say.. Trad hunting is for you.
Doing it right is what this is all about. Getting close with a perfect shot is all that matters. If things for the perfect shot don't work out so be it. Tomorrow is another day with another chance...
JDS III
I see nothing wrong with generalizations as long as a person is not being judgemental or claiming that everyone is one way or the other because the majority may be.
Generalizations are based on data or evidence and when comedians make jokes regarding them we often laugh becuase there's usually some truth to it.
I've always believed that actions speak louder than words. Actions are the fulfilment of a person's words.
A person can often show their heart better through their actions than through their words.
You did good ;)
Ray ;)
When I was 13 or so I had a daisy bb gun. Usually I would set up senario's with my army men on a bank behind our house and shoot at them. one day a hummingbird flew by and I took a snap shot at it. not meaning to I hit it. but I did. It devistated me for quite a while. Knowing I had killed something so beautiful, and not putting it's death to a useful purpose. I balled like a baby for a while. It was a waste of life that I have never forgotten. I take life and death seriously. I don't waste either one. :coffee:
:campfire:
You did well, with your demonstrated valuation of the gift of life embodied in that doe. I expect you would be welcome at my fire any night.
Blackhat, kinda reminds me of when I was about 10 ( I am 55 now) and I shot a sparrow at about 10 ft with a 12gauge.. That really bothered me and to this day still does... killing a critter for no reason and with no challange..I dont want to sound all PETA like cause I hate those bastards, but my concience was deeply affected by that action 45 years ago.
Having a conscience is no crisis and while it may or may not be true that Traditional Bowhunters in general possess higher levels of conscience than the average, conscience has more to do with your internal moral compass than the type of equipment you shoot or hunt with. "It was only a doe" is not something I would let pass if said in my company. It makes it sound as if people try harder when its a trophy buck or something. Taking a life deserves more respect than that. Unfortunately, these sentiments seem to be more common these days...Thanks for the story, hopefully your buddy will learn from it, I bet he will. Experience is the best teacher...
David
look hard at what Killdeer siad and let that sink in, "A life is a life and it is all that she has." man does that make you stop and ponder the difference between taking a world class buck or a doe?? they are indeed one and the same, they are both life not just "a doe". that quote will definitly stick with me.
Sounds to me like your conscience/judgement is right where it needs to be. However, I can't lie - and I hope you don't take offense but the attitude displayed by your buddy made my stomach sick. Sorry but I'm speaking the truth.
I can't and will never understand a thought process that says "leave a poorly hit deer to suffer - it's just a doe." Unacceptable to me in every sense of the word!!!
I'm a very tolerant person - however lately I've experienced some stories similar to this one in my own backyard and they make me sick!!
I'm glad that you feel the way you do in regards to the choices we make before we release the string. I hope you rub off on your buddy.
Some one up top mentioned that we should think about what if we were on the receiving end of an arrow. Very interesting and valuable perspective. Good thought!!
Don't know about others but I'd want it quick and clean!!!
Sorry - as you can see this is not something I take lightly.
"Look Hard at what Killdeer said and let that sink in", "A life is a life and it is all that she has."
AMEN to ALL of This, Killie Said What We ALL Should Take Heed.Bless You KillDeer, for the OutLook that Passing a Shot isnt a Sin, and as Long as YOU are Shooting Your Very Best, and the Voice In Your Head Is There For a Reason, If it Says "Not Yet..." is Better than Boogering the Shot!!
Turkeys Be My Critter of Choice for Me, Rookie-ism<----<<<< but I havent Scored a One in my One Attempt.
Like My old Man Once Told Me "Use FIRST Instinct, 99%of the Time Its The RIGHT Decision!!
Hold Your Head Up, and DONT Listen to the B.S. Your Partners Throw. Kinda Shows What & Where THEY are Made Of, Or they Would Have Piled Out into the Rain to HELP ANOTHER HUNTER In The "Camp" or WinnyBago Find The The Deer That Has Not One But 2 Arrows in it, if Memory Serves.
Your Frame of MIND,And Ethics, Were In the Right Place!!! THAT IS What is all About!! Deer,Elk,Moose, and The Like.
You Did What You Could, with the Situation, so PLEASE Dont Dog Yourself and Beat Yourself Up About It!! Do, Learn & Retain and InGrain, Right ??? :thumbsup: :archer:
A friend once told me the secret to parenting and life. Don't tell your child what to do. Ask them the following, " Is what you are doing the right thing to do ?" I hope that I can live by that. I will ask my daughter that as well.
The only problem I see in your experience is the failure of your hunting partner to respect and appreciate this great opportunity to share with nature. I applaud the generous respect you gave to that doe... I know gun hunters who are "traditional" in their heart regardless of what they choose to hunt with. I know guys who shoot stickbows who aren't worth the powder to shoot. We become soleless killers if thats all we choose to be. You have shown your true nature. Welcome to the campfire. Bhill
I don't think I could ever hunt with someone that said,"Oh well it was just a doe." ever again. It's like wheel bow shooters I used to know up in Michigan that said, " Well it was just a hog so I went ahead and took a quartering to shot. I'll always take a shot on a hog no matter the angle. Funny how a guy will take a shot at a hog he'd never take at a deer." to me on a league night. I looked dumbfounded at the guys that agreed and said, "I always thought any animal you hunted deserved the same respect and humane dispatch. How would you guys like to hear a waterfowl hunter say something like,'it's not how well you shoot it's how much lead you get in the air.' Sky busters are looked down on for a reason. If you just fling, poke and hope on anything you're not doing right." I got a lot of "geeze man lighten up" and "Now tell us how you really feel." comments and wasn't invited on anymore hunts with these wheel shooters. However other bowhunters heard me and introduced themselves and I was invited to join their deercamp.
To thine own self be true and welcome to the side of Light.
wihill - I understand your crisis and your ethics. I try not to be to judgemental of others hunting ethics. If i deal to far into the crisis i find things like
Every day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes--one child every five seconds. 12
and I spend $4K to $6K a year hunting and yet I know it could feed hunger kids????? ya can't cure the world's problems. ya can just march to your own drum and do what you feel is right.
if ya look to far ya find ya have done sumpin worse than the guy ya just judged.
rusty
I just want to thank everyone for their insights and thoughts. Ultimately my crisis was how I wanted to deal with my hunting partner, in such a fashion as to allow my beliefs to be known, my displeasure with his choice(s), and the best way to console not only myself over a matter I had little control over, but a mindset to not allow it to happen again.
I've talked with him off and on, I believe the reality of what happened is starting to sink in. Please believe me I'm not trying to shame or brow beat him into an admission of failure, just open a door to a different perspective. We're still friends, we will continue to be. We'll still hunt together, share stories around the fire, and poke fun at each other when the time's right. He hasn't shown interest in traditional archery, though I often kid him that his aged compound might as well be.. who knows where the future will go, friends aren't perfect - but the good ones can be hard to come by.
On a side note..
I did find it interesting that the other forum largely discarded it, only to see a post on "hail mary" shots appear in due time. To each their own, I suppose. All I can do is try to influence those I can in a positive manner..
:campfire: