Just read Dr. Ashby's report. Pretty cool stuff. My understanding is the 650 was for heavy bone from big game. What about if you hit a rib on a deer on a broadside shot? How much arrow to ensure getting through? I have no doubt my 42# would get a pass through with an arrow that's up to Dr. Ashby's standards. But what if I catch a rib on a deer?
The way I understand it 650gr should be seen as a general rule not an absolute figure, you could probably get away with a few less grains on smaller game on bone hits and get complete penetration...assuming all other factors Dr Ashby has reported are met. Also as you know there is a big difference between the momentum required to breach a rib and a shoulder bone, a heavy arrow comes into its own here.
Personally I treat 650gr as a minimum on everything I hunt, to be sure I have a good chance of breaching heavy bone.
Good hunting!
I wouldn't worry to much about deer ribs, they are not that tough.
With a 53lb DAS, I put a 420 gr arrow with a 4blade Stinger thru the paddle bone, a rib, lungs, rib and broke the offside leg of a 2 1/2 year doe a week ago.
Deer are not armour plated - not a lot of vitals on the other side of the shoulder knuckle either. I'll take the trajectory of my set up any day - helps me greatly avoid the dreaded "bad hit"
Steve
I agree with Steve. The only time I use arrows that heavy is when I'm bowfishing, and in that case they're about 1,500 grains. Honestly, if a deer rib stops your arrow, you've got a serious problem somewhere.
I will say that I am beginning to wonder. I just lost a very large buck that I hit a shoulder on. The shot was 30 yards, 59#@32" bow, 825g total weight arrow, tipped with a 2-blade Stos (145 double bevel). Arrow broke off about 2.5" up the shaft in the middle of the walnut footing. How that didn't blow through, I don't know. We are speculating a broadhead failure.
Ribs are nothing, and i really believed that nuch of the recent single bevel stuff was overkill, but I am beginning to understand the idea of increasing your odds when something goes wrong. :banghead:
That sux's Bob!
But as far as arrow weights and penetration...Dr Ashby's tests are on African big-game! Not North American big-game. Deer ribs and even elk ribs don't compare.
With a two blade set-up and an arrow of about 420-500 gains, you should have no problems with your 42# bow, getting an arrow through the vitals on a good side shot, even if you hit a rib.
I had a friend who shot at an elk with a 70# compound at 20 yards with a 400 grain arrow. It hit a rib and he only got a few inches of penetration. He's a good shot and made a good shot and was really bummed out when they didn't recover it. He's positive it hit a rib square on.
Jason
Bob,if ya hit the joint, I dont think anything is goin through, Lt. Dan, deer ribs shouldnt be any problem at all, with your set up..
Is there really overkill with a bow? I have taken more deer with a bow then most and I have lost a couple to. Yes a 400 grain carbon with a 3 blade has killed a ton of deer. But why would you not want to use everything we now no about arrows and broadheads?
To answer the question, yes you will break the rib. And you might even get two holes. But not everytime. Ive released to many arrows on deer for people to try and tell me they always get a complete passthru with there 400 grainer. Ive shot the light arrows they are NOT as good.
I'm shooting 625 gr arrows out of a 42# longbow pulled to 30 1/2 and had pass throughs and yes even hitting ribs . Will it happen everytime I don't know but I like heavy arrows and most of the weight up front.
Only thing I really have to contribute is that I agree there's always that "one time" when things don't follow the norm for your setup.
The last deer I shot with my older compound went something like this:
29" draw @ 60# 450gr arrow with a new Muzzy 4-blade
On a perfect broadside shot at 40 yards I hit too far back. Right on the line where the lungs end. The deer bolted on a dead-away run. I could plainly see that I had 3-5" of penetration at best. All I found was some hair that the broadhead had clipped off.
To say it ruined my day/week was an understatement. It was the major reason for me to move up to a 70# compound. My current setup is #74 and 3-blades from a 450gr arrow.
P.S. I accomplished getting poison ivy that day looking for the deer. It was 18 degrees out!!!!!
Point is that I was used to getting complete pass-throughs out to 30 yards. Whatever is "normal" is only "normal"...there will be exceptions to the rule.
QuoteBut why would you not want to use everything we now no about arrows and broadheads?
Because I feel - for me - going from my 425 gr to 650 would give me a trajectory likely to cause more bad hits then might be solved by their use - if you buy into the current "studies".
It is my belief far more deer are lost to poor hits and poor tuning then to lack of penetration. As was most likely the cause of Jason's friend - a 400gr arrow flying true with a sharp broadhead from a 70# compound (250fps?)is not going to be stopped by an elk rib.
Steve
"It is my belief far more deer are lost to poor hits and poor tuning then to lack of penetration. As was most likely the cause of Jason's friend - a 400gr arrow flying true with a sharp broadhead from a 70# compound (250fps?)is not going to be stopped by an elk rib."
Steve
That is precisely the whole point of Ashby's research. A heavy arrow setup, which you love to not use, will make the "poor hits" not so poor anymore.
Because all hunters are going to make poor shots, like shoulder hits, Ashby proved that a better, heavy arrow setup will have an increase in penetration and a decrease the number of "lost" deer.
It is still amazing how people refuse to agree with his proven research.
Richie
By the way, years ago before I knew any better, my 500 grain arrow tipped with a Zwickey Delta shot from my 73 lb. bow was stopped immediately by a doe shoulder.
With my 66" long, 42# take down recurve, at my 30" draw length, my 32" aluminum arrow weighs 550 grains with a three bladed 150 grain Wensel Woodsman on the business end of the arrow. No problems on deer (yet).
Richie - for me going up more then 200 gr in arrow wght would lead to an increase in poor shot placement due to trajectory. This is a fact for me from both experiance in the field and on 3d. I would much prefer to use a setup that increases my likely hood of a good shot then use one that create poor ones needing penetration help. In other words, I believe use of a Ashby approved heavy arrow setup would lead to me losing more deer.
While probably unintentional, your post above is very close to suggesting that those not getting on the Ashby bandwagon are foolish or not responsible hunters. I certainley hope that is not your intent and apologize in advance if I am misreading it.
Steve
Steve,
Your first paragraph suggests your personal preference.....no problem.
My original response was to clarify that the lost deer you refer to are due to a lack of penetration. There is a solution to that issue. And it is not to practice more.
I do think people are nuts if they continue to deny the proven results of Ashby's research.
Forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds like you do that everytime this issue comes up.
Again...using a heavier arrow and bow setup would drastically reduce the number of lost deer.
This is accomplished simply because the heavier arrow is much more likely to penetrate to the vitals whether first hitting soft tissue or bone, unlike a lighter arrow.
Also, a heavy arrow can be shot as accurately as a light arrow IF the shooter wants to.
What is intriguing to me, and with the late hour, I hope I word this well...is that some of us are comparing "poor arrow flight" against poor penetration...
Question: do we think there is NOT a distinct correlation between poor arrow flight/tuning and penetration?
If an arrow is expending it's energy flip flopping around in paradox, or flying part way down range sideways to straighten out, there is plenty of super high speed video data that PROVES that this results in lost energy/velocity and that equates to lost penetration energy!
All things are related. Ashby's work on heavy game doens't in any way suggest that it isn't "relevant" to lighter skin/boned game like deer..it simply means that if it works on the heavy critters...its danged sure going to work better on our lighter game such as whitetail...doesn't it?
Is it unethical to NOT use heavy arrows, single bevel tanto tipped heads? Oh heavens no and lets not get that chicken fight started...
It's simply as stated by others...- we can properly tune a bit heavier arrow, and learn it's tragectory (if you shoot either instinctive or gap, you learn a given-weight arrow's flight arc and it gets stuck in your computer tween your ears)we can shoot it well to a variey of ranges.
If a properly tuned, heavier arrow and EFOC with a super sharp head means that we build a margin of error... that equates to less lost deer. That is better PR for us as archers with the legions of armed hunters who follow us into the woods after our earlier seasons. They're out there in numbers hunting small game, turkey and then gun deer! And they find a lot of our mistakes! I've countered for years that if that many folks followed gun hunters into the wood, we'd find a LOT of their mistakes...but that isn't the case, is it? :) They follow us!
This past Thursday, my buddy's 16 yr old hit his first buck with a bow... and didn't get a pass through... caught a bit of off side shoulder I guess...from what we could tell... No blood trail.
We found the deer..about 200 yards...but more by a grid search and some providence...
Whatever we can do to elevate the percentage of recoveries and lessen any chance for possible loss, it seems worth a consideration.
Heavy arrows and super sharp broadheads that are very well tuned to milk every ounce of penetration from our bow set up is ONE solid way to increase the odds...when things go wrong... and they do...sooner or later to almost everyone.
As the cowboys out in MT used to say, "If'n ya never got bucked off a horse, ya ain't rode much!"
I'd paraphrase and suggest if you never got a mariginal shot placement... and you shoot at enough critters...you will!
You can opt not to employ ANY of the suggestions... but that is a honest choice, but it doesn't detract from the legitimacy of research based input that helps show what we can do to improve our chances... If...IF something goes awry!
Now help an old man down off a soap box afore I hurt myself... :rolleyes: :saywhat:
I deny it because it is taken by some to suggest it is irresponsible for hunters to not embrace it unquestionly for NA game. Simply not true. For many responsible skilled hunters, flatter trajectory simply means that taking a shot felt as 17 yds that turns out to be 22 meets a higher likely hood of still be in the kill zone - common for anyone especially with quicker shots in the woods.
QuoteAgain...using a heavier arrow and bow setup would drastically reduce the number of lost deer.
This is accomplished simply because the heavier arrow is much more likely to penetrate to the vitals whether first hitting soft tissue or bone, unlike a lighter arrow.
If I am hitting the soft tissue in route to the vitals, the only added penetration would be in the dirt. If I am hitting bone that can stop my arrow, I'm not near the vitals anyway.
The doubt I had is removed - your position is clearly that not following Ashby is irresponsible - very judgemental and again, simply not true for NA game.
Steve
Steve...like I said..If you want to use a lighter setup and bounce an arrow off a shoulder blade...no problem.
I request the following ONLY because you are defending a light arrow and denying the proven heavy arrow research.....Give us all traditional hunters a reason NOT to use a heavy arrow. (Inaccuracy is not a suffucient answer)
Steve,
I'm obvioulsy a proponent of "anything that helps" group, but I can say I didn't read into Riche's post that to ignore Ashby's research is "irresponsible"... but he might have.
It's so easy to feel "attacked" and feel a need to make a broad based statement in return. I hope, Steve, you don't feel I'm doing that to you, but I'd like to comment to some of your statements.
What I thought I saw Richie comment to was that the Ashby data is rather undeniable. I believe that the data undeniably shows that heavy arrows, single bevel, tanto tips and sharp...super sharp heads IMPROVES penetration, etc. Not that everyone should run out and do it all...but that it's hard to understand how anyone can say the data doesn't support better penetration...period.
It's all tied together:
Penetration is tied to speed, weight, perfectly tuned arrow not losing energy en route. A heavy head/arrow combo equates to more retained energy and it "helps" improve penetration, if every thing else is in harmony as well.
There is a thread on here of a chap shooting a 1000 gr. arrow and big single bevel on a deer, hit the off shoulder and SHATTERED the leg bone. Quick recovery! I'd like that margin of safety and insurance, but won't shoot a 1000 gr. arrow! :)
Where I'd politely disagree with your above statement is to suggest that "for NA game, it's simply not true!"
I respectfully disagree. some light fast arrow set ups, just won't punch through bone, deflect and lose penetration often resulting..often, not always, in a lost deer!
Soft tissue is always the goal... When shooting instinctively, I quit worrying about actual distance... if...and another giant IF...IF I stay within my lethal range limits...Everyone is different.
I think a closer reading of Ashby's research and articles, although a daunting task at times for they are kinda technical, you'll see that your one statement about "if I hit bone...I'm not near vitals" is somewhat of a misnomer.
From a tree, you can easily be off a slight bit, hit a shoulder blade...but vitals lie just beneath! A good penetration set up...whether that be a well tuned shaft, heavier well tuned shaft...single bevel head...and super sharp edge..it's totally reasonable once that shot has occurred, to reach vitals through improved penetration..not a African Buffalo, but you can punch through such a bone area and stop the deer and recover it.
Deer aren't armor coated. Nope. But we all or most all of us, honestly have lost a deer to a marginal shot...even ones we SWORE were dead nuts vital shots...but never found blood or the deer! Makes us sick. Soem of us have chosen to latch onto the research cited to provide some measure of insight...and it's provided us with a way to try to do EVERYthing we can to never have another "can't understand what happened" experience.
NA animals are lost every year...so that alone suggests that there is a "REASON" to "CONSIDER" anything that we can learn to lessen those situations! If it simply "weren't true" then we'd not loose deer...penetration again can be a poor set up, poor BH sharpness and many other factors...but it doesn't discount that heavy set ups can HELP. :)
I for one would like to be clear that while I embrace the Ashby stuff, and choose to try to employ most of it...I don't consider anyone who doesn't to be irresponsible or unethical...
I just ask that if and or "when" that time comes that you do loose an animal, then...then perhaps you'll reconsider and see if there is ANYthing in the Ashby work that might make sense and be worth a try...
Peace out...
Oh yea....busting through the shouder blades with a heavy arrow is a dead mamajama.
Pricking a shoulder blade with a light arrow gets you on the "Pin Cushion lost deer statistic list."
10 gr per pound of draw weight does the job also a cut on contact broadhead or a snuffer or woodsman that are really sharp will do the job I do not think you need 650gr but 550 gr you are still going to get good tragectory and in my book shots should only be taken in your range that you are comfortable with if that is 20 yards ok if it is 10 stay to that then the heavy arrow does not matter as far as trajectory is concerned
Having nothing to do with Ashby, I've liked around 10gpp arrow weight out of my hunting longbows for a number of years. I also like 65pound draw longbows, so I normally put together my hunting arrows as close to 650grains as I can. This has worked well for me over the years without complaints.
I have a new batch of cedars set up for my newest 65pound longbow that weigh right at 650grains. I also started using some tapered carbons that come in around 675grains. Both work well. Over the last week I put together some new tapered carbons that come in just over 700grains which is close to 11gpp. All of the arrows fly great but the latest heavier arrows really take it up a notch on penetration. Not sure if Ashby's 650grain mark is intended to be universal, but for me, when I broke 700grains it clearly crossed the threshold making for a clear and marked difference over the 650-675grain arrows. I think I've hit a sweet spot with this combination.
As to any accuracy complaints due to any increase in weight/arc, I don't see it inside 35yards. I actually find the heavier arrow easier to shoot accurately. I do not notice the arc difference in the same manner as Steve B describes. I guess I would if I used an aiming point or reference mark placed on a specific spot at a given distance. But I don't as I use more of an instinctive aiming style. In hard and fast aiming terms, from point blank out to 35yards or so, I'm under my point-on with both the heavy arrow as with a lighter arrow, but the heavier arrow is always closer to point-on at any distance out to the 35yards. From point blank out to that 35yard distance you're almost always up into the target with any sight picture moreso than the lighter arrow which makes the heavier arrow more forgiving to me for error. At greater distances the rolls change, but for hunting distances the heavier arrow suits me well:)
later,
Daddy Bear
Lt. Dan, as mentioned above and by me earlier, I honestly dont think you will have problem breakin ribs goin in, but coming out may be another story, and if ya catch the far shoulder even in the scapula ya probably arent goin out the other side, I am in agreence with Richie on this, shoot as heavy a bow as ya can accurately, and try to get up above 600 grains. the exit wound is VERY important, especially if ya hunt from tree stands where a high entrance is the norm. This weekend I for some reason went back to a 560 gr arrow from my 60lb recurve, I shot a doe, the entrance was high and did not exit after hitting the far shoulder, luckily she fell in sight, but VERY little blood to trail by if she had gone farther or I would have to track at night.. I have returned to my senses and put the 680 gr 2219's back in my quiver..Ya just have to prepare for the worst case.. and at my shootin range of around 20yds and under, there is no noticable diffrence in trajectory of these 2 arrows, but there is noticable penetration diffrence when things go wrong..
I got it. Deer ribs are no big deal. I just needed to know cause I used to use a 140gr nosler partition so I never worried about it. I plan on using the 42# during the offseason and hunt with 50-55#. Thanks for the info.
140gr!!!!
ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY!!?!?!?????????????
Cutting width must've been somewhere between 6.5mm and 7mm! I bet you had NEGATIVE FOC as well! Geez...
:campfire:
Sorry, thought this thread could use some "lightening" up.
I've lost a couple of deer to hits that IMO were heavy bone related and my lack of UMPFHH was the reason I didn't get another 4-6" penetration and kill the deer or break the backbones. Big deer - 200-250# bruisers from western KS.
Anyway, after quite a bit of shooting/playing I've ended up with weighted carbons, 240 gr up front and Zwixkey Eskimoes. Total weight in the 680 gr range I imagine.
What it does for me more than anything is gives me confidence I can punch through even heavier bones if need be. You can see in practive that the arrows THUMP harder than a 500 grain combo does.
Next Friday I'll put it all to the test. I know its very dissappointing to lose an animal to penetration issues, maybe nothing worse :(