A friend of mine called me at about 1:00 this afternoon to help in the recovery of a deer he had hit with an arrow shot from his compound.
He had climbed down after an uneventful morning sit, and spotted a young buck bedded in the Alfalfa.
He guessed the deer would eventually rise and head for the cover of the woods, so he got comfortable and waited. The buck did just that.
With a little rain, and a little wind he was able to move to intercept the deer, and was offered a twenty five yard shot from ground level. The hit was high in the chest. No pass thru, but two holes.
He watched the deer cover four hundred yards across the field, and slow to a walk for the last little bit. As soon as it reached some tall native grasses, it bedded down. Through his binoculars he could see it, head up and alert.
One hour, two hours, and finally its head went down. About halfway across the field, he noticed it`s head was up again. This time he did his best to get out of sight, and back out. Thats when I got the call from his cell phone.
The plan was for me to become visible from about four hundred yards, to keep the attention of the deer while he snuck around from behind into the wind to try and get another arrow in the deer.
I have no weapon as I do not have permission to hunt there and the landowner is gone.
Before long my buddy steps into view, and gives me thumbs up. The deer was bedded next to several large felled trees that had been there for years, and he took him with a great shot through the center of the neck, because the body was totally blocked.
I have always been a believer that therewas NO SUCH THING as the "void". The non-existent space
under the spine, and above the lungs. BUT, upon inspection of the hit, and the damage done by the
Thunderhead, the lungs were totally untouched.
The broadhead holes clearly visible from inside the chest cavity, and the lungs in my hands without a cut in them. They had a bruised appearance, and the chest cavity had some blood in it, but not nearly enough to kill the deer.
I have no pictures because my wife had her digital camera(s) at a baby shower today.
It was not a traditional kill, and am not sure if I should post this, but it COULD be an issue that a trad hunter might come across.
I have seen the pictures of a disected deer showing no possibility of a "void", but today, I saw proof that an arrow can pass over the lungs, and under the spine. I had the lungs in my hands, and there were NO cuts, or nicks in them.
He said, that before he shot, the deer just didn`t look right, and was actually paying no attention to me. I think he was having difficulty breathing, and would have died eventually.
There it is, take it for what it`s worth.
Maybe the disected deer in the photo I saw had bigger lungs than this buck.
It's there !!
yes it is
Oh, I suspect this is going to be a long one.
:campfire:
I will just say that I have tracked many, many deer over the years and the only ones that were not eventually recovered were those with the "right behind the shoulder, but high" hits.
I know that this is supposed to be physically/biologically impossible but, I'm not totally convinced one way or the other.
Ron
Anatomically impossible. The expantion and contraction of the cavity is what brings air into and out of the lungs. They do not shrink and expand inside the cavity. Your example may have been a sick deer with extremely unusual circumstances that most likely no one here will ever experiance.
There is no void in a healthy animal.
Virtually all cases of an alleged "void" hit are never recoevered so there is no way of telling where the actual hit was. Anyone who has shot a few deer have been surprised on some recovered animals as to where the arrow actually hit as opposed to where it really did. Most likely what happens to most "void" hits.
There are cases of a deer taking a dbl lung hit and surviving, but the verified ones are extremely rare.
Steve
Been there, done that. I'v seen this first hand. There is a "Void". Very similar story with the same results. No damage to the lungs, just under the spine with minimal bleeding. I'v done it and seen it happen to fellow archers.
It is not really a void, it is the upper part of the back loins. If you shoot about 2-3 inches under the spine it is possible to shoot thru the loins and not get into vitals. On a large deer it is at the most 3-4"s but uit can be done. Shawn
Gotta disagree bud......there is no meat under the spine inside the chest cavity....
Been there. done that. Left a nice X on her side from 10 yards. Know what i saw. Don't know for certain what actually happened.
The lungs don't have to fill the whole chest cavity to work as stated.
ChuckC
Here is some information that I found on another website about the misconception of a "Void" area in deer. It was originally written by Dr. Tom Gross, a pulmonologist (Lung Dr) and avid archer from Iowa.
Quote"As a disclaimer, I am not privy to what others have seen or witnessed. I am only trained in normal mammalian anatomy. As such, I offer the following:
1) The lungs are not "glued" to the chest wall. That said, they are mechanically linked by fluid forces between the chest wall pleural surface and the lung pleural surface. The example I use for my students is to take a zip lock bag, put in a very small amount of fluid to "wet" the surfaces and close the bag squeezing out all the air. Then try to separate one bag surface from the other. Can't be done without ripping the bag or putting air into the system. During normal respiration, the chest wall expands a small amount and the lung expand to remain constantly in contact no matter how fast or sharply you breath in. The diaphragm moves up and down a good deal as well, but again, the lungs are in continual contact with the diaphragm. The lungs never separate from chest wall - pleural space is a "potential space" until disease causes fluid to accumulate (effusion), bleeding (hemothorax), or chest wall puncture or lung rupture (pneumothorax). There is no anatomic pr physiologic void.
2) the lungs of all large mammals have recesses that reach above the horizontal lowermost reach of the spinal column. I will gladly attach computer tomographic images (CT scan) from man, pig, sheep to demonstrate that you can not design a path that goes under the spine that will not puncture at least one lung (assuming we are talking about the chest cavity). Someone needs to tell me how to do this with a Mac - or I can email them to someone to do it for us.
3) Not all pneumothoraces are lethal. Even bilateral lung puncture can be survived if there is not a large "sucking chest wound" and/or the lung slices quickly seal up with blood clot. Most of these animals will die, but a few can travel a long way even with "double lung" hits if only the tops of the lungs are sliced.
So, there is no void except in the beliefs of some; you can hit an animal below the spine and not recover it. "
Dr. Gross goes on to say,
"one common misconception is that a pneumothorax (collapsed lung) is an all or nothing phenomena. This is not true. Now certainly with a big open chest wound, most certainly the lung will collapse completely, but this still happens on a breath by breath basis (breath in creates negative pressure drawing air through open wound) and can take many minutes (= many yards if running). Also, if chest wound seals up (narrow slit, fat, clot, etc), lung may only leak a little air during expiration (positive pressure in lung to get breath out) and only partially collapse. Humans and deer have two separate pleural cavities (one for each lung), so dropping one lung leaves the other relatively unscathed. The bison has a single pleural space and was relatively "easy" to kill with even a one lung shot. That said, I have heard that an arrow to the chest of a bison may still take large fractions of any hour to put it down.
In addition, remember your fluid dynamics and air flow resistance factors. A deer trachea (windpipe) provides a much bigger cross sectional area than most any broad head wound (area of circle vs intersecting slits). Thus, air will still follow path of least resistance and animal will be able to inspire until pressure in pleural space impedes air entry through normal channels. This scenario also presumes a "sucking" chest wound whereby entrained air through wound on inspiration does not escape on expiration (think ball valve). Very deadly. However, a true open pneumothorax (air in and out wound during respiratory cycle) can be tolerated for a very long time (ask many of our young men getting shrapnel wounds overseas or any trauma center doc)
The bottom line on one lung hits is that they are very survivable if no major pulmonary artery is cut. Think of the lung arteries as roots of a tree. They start out pretty big as the main artery comes out of the heart, then branch repeatedly until down to the size of capillaries ((10 microns diameter). If you center punch the root (hilum) of the lung, you have cut an artery only a bit smaller than the aorta. Although at considerably lower pressure than the aorta, the pulmonary artery to each lung receives 50% of the cardiac output. No other organ can boast this fraction of total blood flow. This is the major reason a double lung hit is so deadly. Combine the blood loss with large volume pneumothorax and the animal may just fall over after a couple of steps. However,most times I suspect they bleed to death before they asphyxiate. Now if you do not cut a big artery, the bleeding may stop, the lung may only partially collapse, and the animal will be able to travel a long way (or may survive). Much more similar to a gut shot, yet in my experience these guys do not lay down. I suspect many are lost at great distance. Those that live must not get infected and must endure the pain and athlectic disadvantage of a pneumothorax. For those of you who have had a spontaneous pneumo, you know about the pain and shortness of breath. This would be fascinating, albeit ethically difficult research. "
Great info from Dr. Gross, hope it helps people understand the lethality (or lack there of) of certain shots.
Dave
I should have given an exact shot location in my first post.
The hit was about two inches behind the elbow and high. It looked as if the hit would have been IN the spine.
The deer was a perfectly healthy six point, that is 1.5 yrs old.(No two yr molar) Dressed 105 lbs on my scale.
I think there is a void, but you have to be extremely unlucky to find it.
I like to use this pic to display what people mistake as a "Void' area,,Hope it helps,,Frank
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/4297432frank/highhit.jpg)
The Dr. Gross information is probably the best info I have seen on this subject.
I'd just call it bad luck to lose an animal to a high hit.
Kind of makes a better case for 3 or 4 blade heads, doesn't it. Bigger hole lets more air into the chest cavity. Hmmm. Oh no! It's the old "penetration vs. hole size" argument again.
Scott
QuoteOriginally posted by Bonebuster:
He said, that before he shot, the deer just didn`t look right, and was actually paying no attention to me. I think he was having difficulty breathing, and would have died eventually.
The deer was behaving like this before the chest shot or before the neck shot?
I lean towards Shawn Leonard's explination that the broadhead must not in fact, be passing below the spine, even though the shot may have looked like it did.
I can't question the knowledge and experience of trained medical personel, when they say "impossible". Yet my life experience and Bonebuster's initial post implies that it is "possible".
Here's a question: What if it was a dull broadhead? Could that account for the "bruised" (but not puntured) lungs?...
Ron
Ontario Long bow,
That piture Shows that there is an awefull lot of room above the spine.....
Ron
Sure is a lot of room above the spine. Most bag and 3D targets are inaccurate of their depiction of a deer's vitals and guys come accustomed to thinking that is how they are set-up.
Gotta agree with others. It may not be a void, but there is plenty of room above the lungs and the top of the deer. Still have to be pretty unlucky.
V13, show the picture you have posted before. It shows it perfectly. No void.
Whatever you want to call "That" spot, I hit it, the deer went 800 yards, bed down for the night and was gone the next morning.
Let me tell you what happened to me. About 10 years ago I was in my stand when i saw a buck coming down the trail. As he got closer i saw he had a arrow sticking out between his shoulders. When the deer got close i shot him. I was 20feet up the tree and the deer was 10yds from the base. The deer went 15yds and went down. I sat in the stand for 1hour waiting for who ever had shot the deer to come tracking. After no one should up I went to the house and got a bite to eat. got the 4 wheeler went back to the deer. pulled up to the deer shut off the 4 wheeler. The deer got up then ran off I tracked it for 200yds then lost blood. Went home called a friend to tell him what happened. He told me what i would have said. That i was full of it.Theres not no way i hit the deer where i thought. He had to work so he came out to the house 26 hours after i shot the deer. We found the deer I saw the horns first When i said here he is. the deer got up and walked around the hill. My friend stayed watching the deer while i went back to get a bow.I shot the deer it went down. after looking at where i hit the deer the first time will let me say i would take that shot every time.I hit to the deers left side about 3" from the spine and came out just a little to the right of his brisket. I ask around to try to find out who might have shot the deer. I found out the deer was shot the first time about a mile from where i shot the deer and after i shot the deer he went 1/2 mile.Now i will be honest if this didnt happen to me I might need a grain of salt to help it go down.LOL I have been hunting with a bow for over 30 years. And this caps every thing off to this point.
I thought I had hit the 'Void' also on one of my shots... Until I talked to a Vet.. Paradocs that's a member on here. He told me there is no space there and it was a myth... What more then liklely happened is I and your friend shot above the spine.
Its there. Only shots taken from the ground find it though.
How is there a debate over this?I've hit that spot and many others have too...Why are there non believers?
Has anyone ever recoverd one that was supposedly shot there without having to shoot it again?I always thought that there was a spot but I killed one last year that the arrow path was just like the one in the picture (arrow tight up against the spine )and it was a double lung hit. I have shot several in what I thought was the spot and they were never recovered. Therefore I don't beleive there is a spot. I think you hit avove the spine. My2cents David
As is true with the entire human race, I'm sure not every deer is born in perfect anatomical order. That being said I also support Sharpster's idea of a dull BH. The bruising could be the cause of the BH shoving the free moving lungs out of the way instead of cutting them. I think we can all agree that just because a BH can poke a hole through a hide doesn't mean it'll do its job on the vitals.
Sort of an update to the story.
We did not find the arrow or parts of the arrow in the deer, so my friend went back to search for his arrow. (Can`t leave an arrow in a hayfield.)
He told me he finally found it where he eventually killed the buck.
The arrow was complete, broadhead intact. He thinks he may have some how gotten a practice arrow in his quiver. (He practices with broadheads
quite a bit) So the dull broadhead theory may be the answer. The blades on the recovered arrow are
as dull as a butter knife. The broadhead was a 100 grain Thunderhead, and the stainless blades should have still been reasonably sharp.
Also, I want to add, that the entrance and exit wounds were visible from inside the chest cavity, and the arrow clearly passed under the spine.
I agree with Dr. Gross. No void, but it is possible to hit a deer, or other animal, high, but below the spine and not recover it, and the animal may still live. Several years ago, upon butchering a modest buck I shot, I discovered a healed over four-blade arrow wound under its spine. The arrow was apparently a pass through shopt from ground level. The x was in the upper rib cage and hide on both sides of the animal. I killed that buck in mid-December. Season had been open since mid-September. My guess is that it was wounded sometime during September or October. Showed no signs of being wounded/hurt when I killed it.
The 'Void" is in my opinion usually a high lung hit with little or no blood trail (it's inside the animal) with a dead animal at the end if we could follow.
I have not done it myself but have tracked deer, elk, and bear hit in this manner. With nearly 40 years of experience we still only recover less then half of the animal hit like this.
Mike
yup yup yup - sharpster was right ( in my less than humble opinion) and Dozer too.
OK the scientific evidence that was shown does not ask what happens if a dull broadhead; or a head that just plain does not cut the lungs for whatever reason ( that might include something on the blade - like hair or tissue picked up on the way in). The science is based on the conclusion that a broadhead would cut the lung on the way through.
But a two blade on its side might not. I have seen this happen - where the lungs were NOT damaged - but a vein or artery on the top of the chest cavity WAS. So the chest cavity on this particular deer filled with blood eventually- and the lungs deflated.
It is possible for the lung to be cut- but not enough to collapse the lung- I happen to be a walking talking example of that.
I had a stilletto ( a two blade knife) stuck into my back that cut the vein leading out of my kidneys and cut my lung - but did not collapse it.
Now granted; I walked into a hospital and got treatment - and yes eventually my lungs collapsed from the bleeding inside... but if that vein had been missed- I probably would have not had the collapsed lungs.
I really hate to talk about the number of people I have talked to; both experienced bowhunters; and those that give the appearance of being experienced- and people on hunting shows; that shoot for practice: and then put the broadhead into the quiver and go hunting with it.
You cannot get a broadhead too sharp; but you certainly can easily hunt with broadheads too dull.
I think it is the biggest single thing we do that leads to a negative light on bowhunting.
I once hunted with a guy that I insisted on sharpening his broadheads for; and he shot a buck which got away despite a " perfect shot" as he described it. I asked him though- 'are you sure that arrow was shooting perfectly?' ( a set up question) and he replied "yes - I have been practicing with it all morning".
So in his mind - he did everything right; and the deer survived and bowhunting is a cruel activity: as bows cannot kill even with a "perfect hit". He does not bowhunt anymore because of it. No matter that I pointed out that he had NO DOUBT dulled the head that morning practicing with it; and that was the reason the deer was not recovered.
I completely believe that you should be shooting every arrow you hunt with; and then resharpening them before hunting; and too: constantly checking your broadheads for sharpness - and resharpening them.
Therefore it distresses me when I see 40 dollar a piece broadheads that if the shooter shoots to see if the setup works ( and one good arrow in a quiver does not mean all will shoot the same - or most importantly: acceptably). When resharpening that head means disasembly and sending it off to be resharpend. It just lends itself to misuse by some; and some... is too much.
In this case here; the guy accidently used a practice head. That happens. I shot a judo point in competition once and didn't know I did- things happen.
But the acceptance in any way. The propagation in anyway. That shooting a broadhead-- EVEN ONCE for practice - and then hunting with it: is ~totally unexceptable~.
That void area on most unrecovered deer: is ~probably~ IMHO a shot OVER the lungs; and through muscle; where the animal can recover.
Lets not overlook for one second - the response by this hunter to the situation. He thought he made a good shot; he watched the deer. When it did not expire when one would think it would.. when hit as he thought - he backed out and got some help -- from an apparently perfect source.
A BIG TIP OF THE HAT TO THAT !!
And the reaction worked - the deer was recovered.
I really think we need to be talking more about how to sharpen heads; and about the need to keep them sharp.
Part of the problem too; is 'white lies'. Lies which seem to hurt nobody and therefore are exceptable to our psyche.
When a person makes an imperfect shot - owe up to it. To say you hit a deer perfectly - when it was not- just gives bowhunting a black eye.
Deer can move so fast you can leave misses and bad hits: to their actions instead of yours. Be totally honest about it. We all have holes in 3D targets we wish were not there- if on a real animal it may not have killed the animal- things happen.
I once shot from a 20 foot up treestand; a buck- that heard my arrow coming ( last time I used that pattern I burned) and flipped over in an attempt to get away. I hit that deer on the bottom of its chest- and it came out over its opposite shoulder; and buried into the ground half a foot. I killed the deer - but it is an example of how fast they move!
And most often that movement is down; they as we - cannot stand still and jump up; before lowering ourselves; so a perfect shot can and does sometimes- hit high on the animal.
Keep em sharp; and be honest about hits and how it happened. Sometimes a white lie can lead to a black eye and that is not good for us in the long run.
I think the story is great; because everything was done so well - from beginning to end...other than that dull broadhead ! ( and the lack of a really effecient bow :p )
:campfire: :archer:
I do not see how it is possible to shoot an arrow into the chest cavity directly under the spine without striking the inflated lung of a healthy deer. If the deer has a partial or full collapse of the lung for some reason, I can see that it would be possible that the lung may not completely fill the cavity and may be missed. I just cannot see how it is physically possible for a healthy deer to have any gap between the top of the lung and the lungs cavity during any point of the breathing cycle. I can see how a very dull point could penetrate the cavity and somehow crease between the cavity and the top of the lung which should cause bruising.
Here is a good video that shows a professional butchering a freshly killed whitetail:
http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/video/deerfield.wmv
He shows the hung carcass with one side completely boned out with the spine and ribs intact while the other side has all flesh on bones. This gives you a great view showing the deer's anatomy. You guys who state that there is a space below the spine and above the lungs that is void of vitals, where exactly is this voided space? Are you saying that there is a space between the cavity and spine, or are you saying that the lungs do not fill the lung cavity completely to the top?? Science has proven that neither of those two scenarios exist on a normal deer, so where is it???
Thanks,
Daddy Bear
Daddy Bear; personally I was referring to most 'void shots' being ~over~ the chest cavity.
The lungs are not square; they come to a lobe in the front; over the heart- where a heart beat itself might open a slight gap. Probably not- but that is exactly where most of us void shooters are talking about.
A fraction of an inch can mean being in the chest cavity or OVER it: at that particular
spot.
Yes - there are lots of veins and arteries; but deer can recover from a shot over the chest cavity and therefore lungs - and it can still look like: a perfect in the 'dead zone' shot.
However; the lung is NOT attached to the chest wall. The lung IS a slippery surface. Crack the chest on a live deer ( did this before with pregnant car - hit deer) and you can slip your hand around the lungs- there is no connective tissue from the lung to the chest wall.
I say that if an arrow slipped between the lungs and the chest wall- through there right; and the chances soar with a dull blade- the lungs will NOT be cut.
I have seen it; and I am not exactly a person not familiar with either autopsies or necropsies. I have necropsied deer with biologists - first time in the 1960s..
I was TRAINED to look for slices on lungs and wound channels and I have studied the deer and elk I have killed- and others have killed- very closely.
( not to mention autopsies on murdered people)
That does not change the fact: I am NOT a practicing biologist.
But from field experience- a shot in the chest cavity does NOT always cut the lungs; or cut them enough to make the lungs bleed; or be noticable to the 'naked eye' and fingers.
All that void has to be - that space - is the width of the broadhead if its sharp; and any size if it is dull.
Damage done by bullets in the same area cause the flesh to pulverize due to hydrostatic shock.
Broadheads are not designed to produce any hydrostatic shock; so damage done is mostly done by the broadhead cutting. If its dull; its not going to do that - at most it will be a lessor degree...agreed?
A doctor can do surgery and move the lungs around as he does his doctor thing. His fingers will be going between the lung and the chest wall; yet the damage - rare: to healthy lung tissue.
So why could not a thin broadhead slip by just like the doctors fingers?
One more thing. I could expand my lungs and breathe when I was stabbed; until my chest cavity filled with blood; and my lungs could NO LONGER EXPAND to take in air. That means they have an inflated size; and a deflated size...which if filled by blood will not allow the lungs to expand and fill with air.
( been there done that)
If there is no possiblity of a void; why does the increase of blood in the lungs prevent inhalation of air? Because the lung expansion area is filled with blood. If the lung expands and delates with breaths taken; how can the possiblility of the deflated lung allowing a broadhead to pass by - not effecting the lungs...not be possible.
Totally ready to be soooooo wrong on this.
Its how we learn
:saywhat:
The arrow would be going in pretty much a straight line - not feeling for and adjusting for the curves of the cavity where the lungs meet.
Possible? Anything is - but highly, highly improbable.
Steve
out of millions of deer that are shot each year with bows; it does not come up very often.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brian Krebs:
out of millions of deer that are shot each year with bows; it does not come up very often.
:wavey: Well it isn't fun to have "won" that lottery. I've got one in 18 years...... Yep, shot taken from the ground. Yep, arrow looked like it had been smeared in hamburger (tissue, no blood). Yep, deer walked around feeding for 45 minutes, then ambled off, never to be seen again. Yep, brown hair on the ground. Yep, not a single drop of blood.
Made a believer out of me.
Just a note too. the spine doesn't go straight across the animal, there is a dip near the front. Since you can see what certinly appears to be the shouder blades of the deer in Ontario's pic, I would guess that this tomographic cross section (OK, with a band saw likely) was taken near the front of the animal's chest cavity. The amount of area above the spine changes as you move towards the rear of the animal, even within the chest cavity.
Also, although this "phenomena" happened to me, I have no clue if there is really a "void area" or not, but I would certainly be interested in seeing cross sections of that same animal about every inch thru the chest cavity.
What it looked like in front may not reflect what it looked like two inches away. You see this all the time with tissue slides following a necropsy.
Another question I would like to ask. Are there areas of the lungs that are more solid ei, not air filled sac's but rather more muscular and forming the shape and supporting tissue. I ask that because, just because you hit an animals heart, does not mean that it will be a mortal hit, a slice to the heart tissue may not do all that much immediate damage, while a hole in the ventricles will cause death in seconds. If you hit an animal in the high leg, you may have a muscle it, or you may hit the femoral which is tucked in there somewhere. Can we be hitting the lungs in an area not so condusive to immediate deadly results ? If so, can this be better described ?
ChuckC
My father shot a buck in the "void" with his crossgun ( he has degenitive arthritis in his neck and shoulders or I'd disown him ) anyway the buck runs off pulls the arrow out and lives until my father shot the same buck with his muzzle loader on the last evening of gun season. If the void is there or not I know from experience that deer hit here even with three blade broadheads can survive. Not even a sign of infection when the deer was processed