Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Tim Fishell on October 23, 2008, 09:18:00 AM
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I have always struggled with this. I have never shot a deer with my bow and this is my 14th hunting season. I had a button buck at less than 10 yards hunting from the ground last night and I let him walk. I just couldnt bring myself to drop the string knowing he was a button buck.
So I am curious what some of you think about this. I am by no means out for only big deer seeing how I can't even seem to pull it together with a small one or a doe for that matter.
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No issue with me, if it's brown, it's down!
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Tim Shoot you a deer man,good eating and you will not ruin the herd if you do.You still have to make a good shot and trail them and find them and that experience is almost as fun as seeing the arrow enter them for me.I have killed my share of deer and not quite as mad at them as I use to be at 58 years.I passed on some and spikes as rules require on one area I hunt but on my property I let young hunters and first kill go for it and I would shoot one also if needed for the freezer.I didn't vote b/c it was either or and I would make up my mind at the time of shot.Kip
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Fawns of the year, including button bucks, are the most likely to succomb to the factors of life of any in the herd. Especially in an "up north winter" setting. We used to have a lot of ideas about how to manage a deer herd and some of those ideas have changed or are changing.
I personally have shot botton bucks and likely will again. If I have a choice of an adult doe, I will take her instead, cause there is more meat. You make the choice.
I suggest that if you are having some problem "gettin er done" for any reason, maybe consider committing to just shooting the next deer that comes by (that presents a reasonable shot opportunity).
That way there is no concern over what it is...... it is just "next". It is worthy of your arrow because it is "next".
Do that a few times and THEN worry about what you will or won't shoot. Deer are nutritious and delicious, but you gotta kill one before you get to eat it (unless you are a wolf... then you get to eat it while it is still alive and watching you).
Shoot straight and pick a spot.
ChuckC
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I'm in the same boat as far as you when it comes to taking deer with my bow but I would still let him walk. I'm not a trophy hunter and I don't "need" the meat enough to take such a young buck.
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Button bucks are off limits as well as small bucks 125 or less,except our kids they can take what they want.
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I wouldn't have any problem at all if I were you Tim. Like Chuck said, get a few before you start trying to be selective.
That being said, I am fortunate to hunt an area that is blessed with a very good deer population. I know that if I am patient I will have other opportunities, so I let the buttons walk. But your situation is completely different, and your decisions should not be influenced at all by what I or anyone else chooses to do.
Drop the string next time buddy!
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The button buck that you let go this year will be a forked horn or so next year. And the year after that he will become a 6 or eight point if the genetics and nutrition are there. The only difference in the deer is the size of his antlers and the size of his body. It is still the SAME deer. Unless you are trying to build up a herd because of low numbers in the area or you are trying to grow "trophy" bucks, then I see no reason not to shoot the BB whether it is this year or in 2 years.
BOB
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I generally shoot the first deer that gives me the oppertunity. Over the years some of these have been button bucks but I've never knowingly shot one. I'm always disapointed when I shoot a small doe that turns out to be a BB. I would prefer to let them grow a bit but at 15-20 yrds, you can't always tell. At the same time, I don't loose any sleep over killing one either.
I butcher my deer myself and try to avoid the real small ones because they're just as much work to butcher as the larger ones but, you only get 1/2 the meat.
If you haven't killed a deer yet then by all means, shoot the first one you can regardless of size or sex. Get one under your belt, then you can get picky after that. JMHO,
Ron
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Mostly I will let them walk, But they are so tasty. Most areas I hunt I get one deer a Year, I usually make it count. I much rather spend time in the woods doing the hunting.
Blueline
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Originally posted by Whip:
[qb] I wouldn't have any problem at all if I were you Tim. Like Chuck said, get a few before you start trying to be selective.
My first bow kill was a button buck. :D
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As said above: My first kill ever was two weeks ago and it was a button buck...I have a freezer full of delicious meat and the experience of a kill under my belt. Now, I'll go out and be more selective.
Just my opinion...Christian
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You did the right thing ------ I see there isn't a huge difference in the % of hunters who would "shoot" and the % who would "pass" Truth is today most hunters can hunt enough places to make either choice AND benefit the deer. Clubs, Public Land and any large area - particularly wild areas DON'T Shoot. Use your binoculars - there is NO satisfaction in it - I don't care how long a guy has been hunting - if it that bad come hunt with me - I will put you on deer other than buttons - bottom line is they are fawns - the most vulnerable. But if a guy will hunt Urban Units - edges of Parks - edges of school yards - behind a church -- ALL deer in these areas should be taken (button fawns included) - better in your freezer than dead on the side of the road.
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When you are hunting plubic land any deer goes down. I am hunting said land and havn't seen a deer this year.
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To me it is the same deer whether you shoot it today as a nub as it would be three years from now as a racked buck.
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Thanks for all the comments so far guys. Pretty close to even and some very valid points for each side.
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Sorry but the question is too simplistic and assuming to be able to be answered.
My answer is someplaces "yes", some placees "no".
If I am hunting an area that needs lots of deer reduction then "yes" but most other places "no".
That said, if you haven't shot a deer in 14 years then by all means drop the string!
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With the deer population here in CT you shoot what you see, then go get a replacement tag if available for the area you're hunting. Population control at this point is more important than getting the "shooter" buck.
For the last few years in my area I could take an unlimited number of animals on private land... now if only I had the time to hunt!
The little ones taste better anyway. I had some ribs the other year from one that still had spots when on the hoof... finger-lickin' good!
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I wouldn't worry what others think. You have to make the decision that is right for you. Personally I don't shoot at the obviously young/small deer down here in Texas because they can really move quickly which increases the chances of a botched shot and a wounded deer.
I shot a young doe several years ago through the paunch because she jumped the string. Took me about 16 hours to recover her and in the process of tracking her I jumped her twice. Just made me feel bad that she had to suffer so much.
So now I only shoot at big slow bucks LOL
Brett
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Im surprised how many people shoot button bucks. I dont understand the logic
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I've never killed a deer with my bow after a lot of years of trying. Last year I let a nubbin walk all around me and I passed, I don,t think I will let one pass if I get the chance this year, but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
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Since we are talking about button bucks here, from what I understand, button bucks on the 200 acre farm you hunt tend to move many miles by the time they are 4 points next season. Is that true?
With that said, yea I would probably shoot it, but thats your own decision. Just remember there is no wrong decison.
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Well said southmdshooter. :thumbsup:
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i have not taken a deer with bow yet either, that being said i pass on all "small" deer. just don't feel the need to do that. i have had dozens of chances in the last few years and have passed. hunting hard now, waiting for a decent deer.
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I had the same choice several years ago. I had switched to trad about 4 years earlier and still hadn't killed anything. It was pretty early in the season and a little BB hung out under my stand for several minutes offering a number of shots. I just couldn't do it. Not because it was a buck but because it was a little fawn. I would have made the same choice for a little doe. Later in the year, or if he was a little bigger, I probably would have shot him. I don't know if that answers your question but there it is.
Early season or later born fawns are too small to kill for me. It's just not worth the trouble for the small amount of meat you get.
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What logic is required ?
There is no logic only choice. For every arguement "for" there is an argument "against".
Don't know about you but I am deer hunting.
It is a choice pure and simple. and it is his (or ours or yours) choice.
If he has not shot a deer yet, or in a long long time, and worries about whether or not he should take a deer... then shooting whatever walks past might be a good "practice" for when Mr. Big walks past. and, as stated earlier, chosing "the next deer" alleviates the worry of whether he should shoot or not, based upon deer size or age or sex.
ChuckC
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As for confidence, if you are saving yourself for bucksilla, you will probably miss the monsterbuck if you have never dropped a string on any deer before. You don't play in the superbowl without a lot of practice. I have never seen nor shot such a buck and still lay up at night dreaming of all of my brown ghosts at the lease with envy, horns or not. But what we do is hard and reguires alot of practice with real targets and real deer that jump, move and turn grown men into children. (I love it)
With respect to management, I have read that you will never know that buck's true potential until after 3 years but that first year deer regardless of gender have about a 50/50 chance that it will not make it through the first year of its life. That being said, if the buck or doe makes it to year 2, its a fighter and has a greater chance of making it to maturity. In my opinion, shooting a button buck due to life expectancy has far less effect on the herd than shooting a two or three year old fork horn that has a greater chance of living but has yet to reveal its true potential.
I now choose to let the spikes pass and only shoot older cull bucks and all the does I can get. However, you have have been more selective, cautious, and more patient than I ever could have been. If you want to shoot one, feel free and and know that you did something special regardless of what the realtree staff would say. Bhill
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I've shot two on accident thinking they were does. If you're in an area that you are trying to grow big bucks, leave them alone. If it had been 14 seasons since I shot a deer, I'd down one in a heartbeat.
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Tim, if he was on public land that you normally hunt I would shot him in your situation...most likely he'll be shot during gun season anyway.
Now if it was private land, and he was a late born small button I'd let him walk. I had the following choice two days ago...twin buttons both gave me shots under 15 yards. I passed only because I've seen the bigger bucks there that those two may be their offspring.
What ever choice you make, best of luck...
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14 years!?! Shoot that deer. There are a lot of preferences and opinions here, don't worry about what everyone else will think.
I guarantee, when you get a deer and post pictures here, it will be nothing but congratulations and high fives. Not one person is going to say, "You shouldn't have shot him, he's not a shooter buck."
Does, button bucks, and mature bucks are all trophies especially when taken with trad gear. Down the road, maybe you want to work on building up a heard or putting a trophy on the wall, but put some meat on your table.
Obviously you love hunting, but throw in a little killing and it gets even better.
oxnam
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ok ill bite.
Im 19 ive been hunting for 10 years now, 4 with a stick and string. Ive killed over 20 deer with trad equipment 2 that made P&Y. And those are the only two bucks ive killed with trad equip. Ive had literally hundreds of oppurtunties to kill everything from button bucks to 10 points but have always passed because they were young deer. I have no problem with people killing young bucks but you will wont be able to kill/hunt big bucks if your shooting them when they're BBs all the way to basket 8s. Last year one of the P&Y bucks I killed I had let go the two previous seasons before.
Now I get it if its your first year hunting and have never killed a deer or something like that, but my first year with a recurve I could have killed a few basket 8s a few times but decided to let him go (not an easy decision) and take a doe, and letting these young bucks go are really paying off now.
Also to better understand my situation I am hunting on 7000 private acres in WV (so our bucks aint that big to begin with) where less than 10 people hunt a year and we dont shoot anything unless hes a mature buck, weve been doing this for 10 years and its really paying off big time.
I understand that things are different if the land isnt managed or if its public land and if you dont shoot it someone else will, but bottom line they cant grow to be nice mature bucks with good rack size if there killed young period.
And for those who said population control SHOOT THE DOES!
For example this is a buck I saw on the property a month ago and he will not be killed on our property by any human. Hes a young deer with a lot of potential, hopefully he can make it till next year so I can have a crack at him in the woods.
Good luck to all this year! Be safe
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/chonaker4/P1010013.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/chonaker4/P1010005.jpg)
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I have taken a couple of buttons not knowing at the time of the shot. If I know a head of time, I'll let him walk.
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As a rule I let them walk, that being said doe fawns are in a world of trouble when They come by me I will let there mother walk to get to them, I take plenty of deer for the freezer and only want the best eatin, I know I shot a BB this year and would not have if I could have seen the nubds at 12 yds, but he tastes great, we also let all 1yr old bucks walk on our property here in vt. When I hunt Ohio no bb's and I try to hold out for a 125" gross buck, I only have 10-15 days there and come home without some years but it is my choice. Shoot what ever makes you happy and be proud of it.
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Tim,
Sounds like you answered your own question by not shooting. Good luck!
Mike
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Thanks again guys. It is good to see some others perspectives on this.
For those that wanted more info about the area I am hunting. I hunt public land that is roughly 144,000 acres in size. The part that I hunt is 2 square miles with roads to the south, east, and west and private land to the north.
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I wasn't going to post again but after reading many responses I feel I should. I definitely felt my first deer was a trophy - more importantly it was a trophy to me. I'm sure an accomplished hunter with multiple P&Y class deer to his/her credit would not catergorize my button as a trophy. That's ok..it was my shot and I'm proud I made it.
When I shot my first deer I didn't know he was a button...thought it was a doe.
However, that wouldn't have changed the shot I took...I'll explain.
First of all, to me hunting is a very personal experience and means different things for different people - obviously - and I'm not writing this for approval or disapproval. I'm writing to explain the instincts that took over when the deer hooked around and presented a perfect broadside shot.
I'd be lying if I said there was a ton of time for contemplation when the deer gave me a shot. He was 10-12yds. broadside and quartering away. I felt it was time to draw and shoot. I did!
My point is that: my instincts took over. I'm happy with the decision and I fully understand that the decisions and instincts of one are not those of another.
So, again...I say do what you feel is right for you as a hunter.
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I voted no just because we need to take a few does to balance the herd better so we dont need the meat .
Mike
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After 14 years ,break the ice and shoot a small deer. Then when a big one comes your way it will almost seem natural. I get excited if there big or little.Get one under your belt then hold out for a big one.
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I'll let'em walk, never needed to shoot anything that bad. I too am still waiting for my 1st with a bow.
Eric
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The last deer I shot was a button. The first deer I shot was a button.
I didn't know either was a button when I shot.
I don't beat myself up over it but as a rule I let spikes, buttons or fawns that are with the mother walk. So I voted "let em walk."
I have shot a doe when there was 2 does and 2 fawns, figured the little guys were taken care of...but it's always been a lingering question. If somebody knows for sure whether or not does will "adopt" fawns PM me so we keep the thread on course.
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deer "management" to me is if i can "manage" to put an arrow in the vitals....im not picky...Tim, you just passed up some prime venison..
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I have shot a few buttons by accident. One was off the ground, at ShrewHaven, where we have a strict 6 point or better rule....think I was looking forward to telling Ron? He just shrugged and said something like "accidents happen meathead, was it a clean kill?"
I would never shoot a button on purpose, but the world won't come crashing if you choose to.
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Leatherneck. lighten up dude.
I practice shooting at targets too, but I guess I need to get me some of those targets that your club must have that make me get all nervous and excited and buck feverish. Up till now I've had to practice my composure on real animals.
As I recall, nothing was said about trophy status or worthiness or anything like that, but I am guessing that 99% of folks will get more nervous if a large gnarly buck walks by than if a doe walks by. Maybe not.
Anyway. there is no sin in shooting a button buck, unless the club rules forbid it. Then there is no choice except hunt elsewhere.
ChuckC
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I would have no problem shooting it.
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Really whether or not you shoot a BB is kinda moot.
Nothing personal but if it has been 14 years you need a new game plan and whether or not you shoot at BB's will matter some but not much.
Either you're hunting where they ain't or you need better methods or both.
But most likely you need to find a place with more deer that are less pressured. Having lots of deer around you will hone your methods and break the ice.
Find some place with more huntable deer.
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As a first deer with a bow, I would never judge anyone harshly, however I consider Button Bocks gift deer for those who never have killed a deer with a bow. After you take your first you should consider button bucks a once in a lifetime tagging.
JMHO,
Greg
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I voted no, but I don't see anything wrong with it, especially for a first deer. I'd much rather shoot a doe than a button buck and there are usually quite a few doe around the property I hunt.
But, if I was in an area with few deer and there just weren't many opportunities, or if I had never shot a deer yet, or possibly on public land if the season was winding down, I wouldn't hesitate.
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I wouldn't shoot one myself because I pay a flat fee to have my deer processed whether they are 40lbs or 100lbs. I usually try to take mature does for this reason. I also am fortunate to get a good amount of opportunities. I heard someone make the statement here recently " I never have once regretted NOT dropping the string" I think its one of the most profound statements I've read here. If "you" are unsure then maybe "you" shouldn't. No one here can make the right decision for you.
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I killed one this year, I try not to shoot them but it happens. Tim, in your case shoot them, shoot every deer you legally can. Get ten or fifteen under your belt and than woory about being selective. I will say this a button bucks meat will be the best ya ever eat from a buck, because once they hit 1.5 yeras old all is down hill in the meat department. Shawn
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Quite simple for me,, Ya only die once,, Ya can't kill em Big,, If ya kill em Small,, and No,, I don't have Private Land with Lots of deer on it to hunt ... But that's just me ... Good Luck ...
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Your out there to shoot a deer, after 14 seasons SHOOT!!!! If it's legal shoot it!
I voted no, but then I normally average 3-5 deer a year. If the freezer is low, I fill it; then get selective.
Do what you are out there to do, then you can get choosy. Trophy deer are nice but all deer create memories, and after 14 seasons you are way behind on memories.
Shoot one, then sit and watch them if you want.
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I'd say it's past time to break the ice Tim. 14 years is too long to still be choosy. Get one under your belt then try for a bigger one the next time(which can only happen after the first time). What others would do is for them to decide. The first one will taste so good regardless what you get. ;)
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14 years :scared: ......SHOOT!!....No, wait a minute....pick a spot.....settle in.....stay calm.....now... :readit: :thumbsup:
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My answer Is kind of Hipocritical. While I voted let them walk I have honestly Shot a button buck. It was last year and my First deer with a long bow. I was going to pass him up when my hunting partner who was in the tree next to me said.... It's your First... You almost have to!" It was the first and ONLY thing to come into range all year so I shot I didnt realize it was a button buck till I retrieved him I was just thinking it was a doe, while I was waiting for something with antlers. So my real answer is.... If it's your first....You might want to take the shot, It was very rewarding. But From hear on out... They walk, and get the chance to be majestic!
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee256/krakka17/P1020807.jpg)
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Dont have a problem with it, its just easy to get within shootin distances around the places I hunt.(Of a young doe that is) Ever once in a while the kids will shoot a button buck during gun season/ youth hunts, and I always kinda feel bad. I think it has to do with the fact my mouth starts watering when a young doe gets close! LOL.
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very intertesting to vote and see the poll on this - and to read all the comments
you post this on a main stream Bowhunting board and it would be I'd bet 90%-10% against shooting them, maybe more
QDM and the love of horns have changed everything in the past 5-10 years
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I normaly shoot.....
1) Bucks
(bigger the better,but a good shot at a spike doesn't get passed up)
2)Button Bucks
3)Doe Fawns
4)Mature Does
I actualy hate to shoot mature does.I believe they posess good survival instincts to help thier fawns make it through the first few months of thier life.Once the rut kicks in,the mature bucks(and does)drive away the fawns hanging with thier mother when she comes into heat.Then they are just wandering around aimlessly,fair game for coyotes,cars,hunters,and the elements.I once found a little Button Buck curled up in a ball on the edge of a field.....he was FROZEN SOLID!!!!! There had been an ice storm the night before,and the little buck didn't have the sense to go down over the bank into the thick pines (about 100yards) to get out of the storm.
I shoot any fawn that gives me a good shot.
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I voted to shoot them as I was looking at it from what I would do in your shoes.
I once heard someone say that "NOTHING teaches you how to be a bowhunter or how to kill a deer better than actually killing a couple of deer."
I like to think that I could be a "selective" bowhunter and let small bucks pass but honestly, hunting public land where I may only get one to three or so real shot opportunities in a season I could go either way on personally shooting a button buck. The later it is in the season with an empty freezer, the more likely I would be to take advantage of whatever deer gave me a shot. I've never yet killed a button buck with the bow but I've shot a few with the rifle not knowing they were b.b's until they were down and it never bothered me a bit.
p.s. I only read the first page of this so if I'm repeating on others, sorry.
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I answered 'yes' because I would. I have turned down a whole lot of shots this year because the moment was not right; and too I wanted to hunt more ! Shooting a deer is a personal decision; and some days you will only take a big buck; and others a doe- heck - its about the shot !
If you don't want to take the shot- then don't- its YOUR decision.
The argument about how big it will be is based on: IF it does not die of some other cause ~before~ it gets big.
If you shoot a big buck; it may have been about to father a record book buck from a doe it was about to breed.
If you shoot a doe; it could hold a trophy buck fetus in it- that might have grown to be a big huge opprotunity for you some day.
If you don't shoot the button buck; it may eat up the food that makes the big buck that you saw once- not survive the winter...
It could be an inferior deer that will grow and inseminate the doe- that could have fathered a buck from a trophy buck...
another words: take the shots you want to take; and do not take the shots you don't want to take.
If your hunting to feed someone elses ego- then rethink why your in the woods anyway.
:campfire:
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There is more than enough button bucks to go around, fill your tag. Around here when gun season arrives guys are shooting everything they can including button bucks, I see them laying dead on the side of the road all the time, my opinion has always been shoot them and enjoy the experience and the great meat. (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/420W/IM000217.jpg) This one was my first trad kill I already have two deer down this year but if a button gets in range I would not hesitate to put it in the freezer, for me it's all about personal enjoyment and feeding my family, I spend a lot of time and money doing this trad thing I need to offset the cost by providing food for the table.
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The fact that you are struggling with the decision suggests that maybe you should review just why you could not bring yourself to drop the string.
Anyone who thinks you can implement some kind of QDM on unlimited access public land is living a pipe dream.
The dumbest deer in the woods is a two year old buck in November. Do the horns matter that much? If they do, you better hold out for a 4 year old, otherwise, the decision to pass doesn't really accomplish a thing.
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Tim – regardless of what anyone says…..shoot the next couple of deer you get a chance at. It’s easy to get high and mighty with several kills under their belt. The first deer I killed was a button buck, and for the first 10 years of hunting, I never even gave it a thought. I shot the first deer I had a chance at. After that, you can get selective, but gaining experience won’t hurt your herd, or make you less of a hunter.
Imagine how many buttons get killed by gun hunters every year? Cars? You killing one will make zero difference to the herd, and a big difference to you.
My son’s first deer was a button also, and we had the skull mounted European style. It’s a great mount and a great memory. Drop the string.
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Here is my take on the situation of shooting or not shooting a button buck. In that state of Indiana we have had manditory check in all of all a deer harvests for many years so there are some great records. I was just looking at statistics from 1987 to 2000. Over those years there were about equal number so BB as doe fawns harvested (11 to 15 percent of the total deer harvest). During that time period we could harvest two bucks per hunter, one in archery and one with firearms. This lead to alot of hunters shooting smaller bucks for their second buck versus holding out for a quality buck.
Around about 2000 the state DNR instituted the "one buck rule" which allowed a hunter to take only one antlered buck during the course on any season in the hopes of increasing our buck quality. BBs are still counted as antlerless. With the one buck rule hunters have been holding out longer for a quality buck and passing on the scrubs. Hunter surveys and my personal experience shows that we are seeing more bucks and better quality bucks because of this rule. The percentage of button bucks being harvested hasn't changed over this time period. It is also interesting to note that over this time our deer harvest numbers have increased, our percentage of bucks harvested have stayed about the same. From a QDM stand point it makes more sense to control the antlered bucks that you harvest versus worring about button bucks.
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Guys thanks again for all the insight. By no means is this about QDM or a trophy to hang on the wall. When I had the deer at less than 10 yards I drew down picked a spot and something just told me not to do it. Driving home that night and reliving the experience I regreted not dropping the string. So I guess the moral is we all have to live with the decisions we make whether right or wrong. Will I shoot a BB if one walks by this weekend? I cant answer that right now. For me it seems to be a spur of the moment decision whether or not to release that arrow.
I have hunted 14 years with a bow and have never once regreted not taking deer. I have had numerous opportunities to take deer that I felt good about but for one reason or another it didnt work out. I hunt just for the pleasure of being in the woods and taking in what God created. Seeing deer or even taking deer is just icing on the cake.
Thanks again for taking the time to let me know your view points. Good luck on the rest of your seasons and shoot straight.
Tim
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First of all I wont say that I havent shot them, to my knowledge I have shot 2 in fact. One was a mercy kill on a wounded button buck that I was unable to even salvage any meat from the other was a mistake on my part. That being said I find no problem specifically with shooting them for the table. I discourage it on my lease because I feel that every button buck I can see through to adulthood the better. I know that I will probably not see that particular buck on my lease once he is an adult since he will be run off to find his own territory once he reaches sexual maturity but it a personal choice for me to do it this way.
On the pro side of the argument they are the most likely not to survive their first year, you probably wont get to see them on your property as adults (as mentioned above), they are really easy to drag out of the woods and they are darn tasty.
It comes down to personal choice like many of our decisions while out in the field, let your conscience guide you.
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Let's try to understand that we should be conservative about applying provincial points of view on a global basis. The deer herd in one area of the country is vastly different from the deer herd in another. I have killed a pile of deer with gun and bow and only two would meet the minimum criteria for bucks that some of you have posted. A 115 inch eight point gets a lot of attention in most areas that I hunt.
There is nothing wrong with shooting a button buck. Nothing. If you want to shoot one then do it.
I think that if you have never shot a deer then you should shoot a button buck and be proud as punch about it. Furthermore, everybody in the hunting fraternity should be happy for you. Most of us evolved to a mind-set of passing on young deer after we had already killed a bunch of them ourselves. We tend to forget that.
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My QDM comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just my own thoughts on the subject.
I personally believe as a hunter, you are responsible to be a part of the management system. What that means is entirely dependent on where and what you hunt.
Everyone hunts for their own reasons and we're all free to set our own personal goals. A scrub to one may be the trophy of a lifetime to someone else.
I will say this though, if you have not killed a big game animal with a bow, you really do not yet know what it is to be a bowhunter.
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Originally posted by Molson:
I will say this though, if you have not killed a big game animal with a bow, you really do not yet know what it is to be a bowhunter.
I decided that the previous post was going to be my last until I read this. If this is what you believe then you have missed what hunting is all about completely in my mind. Hunting is not about killing or not killing. Yes that is what we are out there to achive but to me this is not the only reason I hunt. With all due respect I know exactly what it is to be a bowhunter. But I am an Outdoorsman first and a Hunter second!!
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Tim that is not meant to be any type of insult to you or anyone else. I can assure you that you will know what I am talking about when it happens.
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Hi Tim,
As far as this topic goes, opinions are like As@@@@@s, we all have one! That being said, I would have killed this little buck. I, just this season, broke a long dryspell by killing a young button. Wonderful deer, I was SO tickled and the meat has been excellent. I needed the confidence boost badly.
I think that for your own confidence you should have taken the shot. Kill that 1st and then be a bit more selective if you want. But lets face it, at this time in our history, we have an overabundance of deer roaming around. And as mentioned, yes the deer would probably grow a nice (if typical) rack in a couple of years and provide, in many folks mind, "better" trpohy. But, realize that the bucks just dont "grow bigger" they grow exponentially "smarter", and the likely hood of you even seeing him again is very small in all reality. We hunt with trad-bows and it's not likely we could ever seriously impact the "herd" by "over-harvesting".
I, myself wouldn't sweat it, take the next deer (whatever size) and be thrilled(you should be as you did it "the hard way")don't over analyze this too much. Our time (for most of us) in the field is very limited. Enjoy it fully. Enough preaching!!
Good Luck
Harry.
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Go ahead and take some meat home. I've taken them in the past.
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Tim there's absolutely nothing wrong with you sitting there another 14 years if you want to. There is much more to hunting than killing. Shoot a deer when you're ready. I do however understand the point that Molson was making above. Its kinda hard to explain, but a lot of different feelings come over me at once. Its a little different each time for me anyway. But its yet a another part of the experience. You'll understand if and when the time comes.
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There is no shame in taking any deer with traditional tackle. My first deer taken with a bow 33 years ago was a button buck. I let those little bucks walk now, but that first deer will do alot for your confidence when you have to put a shot on one of the big boys.
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cant eat antlers. thats the way i look at it.
-cory
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Well, if there wasn't any humans the the bears, yotes and any other predator would take them young'ens. I hunt for the hunt, I get Meat as a bonus.
If You don't like to take a BB, Don't
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You cant eat antlers, but some of us LOVE COLLECTING them.
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QDM.... does that mean "quality deer meat"? :thumbsup:
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Tim here in Jersey in some zones we have an early season. You have to "earn a buck" you have to shoot a doe. Like Ron [Sharpster] said previously sometimes at 15 to 20 yards you can't tell the differance. Over the years I have shot a few. They sure taste good. In our neck of the woods if we didn't shoot it someone else probably would. That's due to the hunting pressure here.Also, they aren't the smartest of the deer family just like fawn does.Comes down to survival of the smartest and fittest.I always said if GOD didn't want me to shoot it he wouldn't have put it in front of me.
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Remind me not to walk in front of bentpole's stand/blind!LOL
Just a little funning bentpole.
Mike :biglaugh:
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I have enjoyed this thread!
I have shot button bucks...two of them...on my first deer hunt after being in the stand for about one and a half hours. I thought they were does. Missouri BB's look like a full grown Fl. doe. ;) They each weighed over 160 pounds. Since then I have been able to spot them...and pass on the lil fellers cause I know there Pappy or Grandpap is out there. I do shoot does...but pass on the lil ones. We leave in a couple of days for Missouri...and since I got a 8 pt last year (finally)...(small rack older buck)...my Uncle says...I can shoot the does or 7 pts or better. So I have a new challange. :)
There is a certain satisfaction to know your hunting the wind right...and the babes are there playing/feeding under your feet and you know you could but you don't.
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Roger Norris has it right on the button!! No pun intended. After ya kill 10-15 deer than start worrying about being selective. Shawn
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I should add that a lot of guys who pass small bucks and such most likely did not always do that. I knnow a bunch of people, myself included that have got more selective but at one time when I was young I shot everything that came by. I also hate shooting a mature doe, she is most likely gonna have twins the following June and most likely one doe fawn and one buck fawn. If I shoot a big mature doe I just killed 3 deer as far as I am concerned one most likely a button in the spring. If I kill a doe fawn or a button I killed only one deer for the doe fawn may or most likely not get breed late this winter. Shawn
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Would if I could. Can't so I won't. State law is forked horn or better.
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Would I shoot a button buck on my next hunt, NO. Have I shot a button buck before, Yes. You have to learn how to kill a deer before you learn how to let them walk, in my opinion. Like others have said get the experience on several deer first, then you can be selective later, if you want...Then, you'll be ready when Mr. Big walks by, because you'll be able to say "Hey, I've made this shot before"...
David
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Tim,
I'm of the opinion that you are best served by increasing your knowledge on the subject to help form your very own personal position. You must live with your actions and your best satisfaction is usually found when you follow your own built in moral/ethical compass and abide by your founded principles. This would apply whether your choice is to pass or your choice is to shoot.
The one point of view expressed in this thread that I personally have trouble getting behind is such:
A number of posters have repeated a theme of public land vs private land when it comes to making your decision. Let them pass for game management reasons on private land to better the quality of the deer but shoot them before someone else does on public land because one less would matter little as everyone else is shooting them. Yet, they follow this up by making a blanket statement to not worry about what others would do. I find this a troubling model to follow.
When you make your decision and set your compass to guide your personal choice, you should probably stick to it whether you are hunting on TV with thousands of viewers to witness, or whether you are miles from nowhere and all alone. You should never go against your carefully guided personal moral/ethical compass based out of concern that you better get it before someone else does. Doesn't this go fly in the face against the statement of not worrying about what others choose? One should not go against their personal values just because the odds are you will not be caught, one should not go against their personal values just to be first, and one should not be sorry for going against their personal values only after being caught.
If your personal choice is to let button bucks pass and the thought of knowingly taking such a deer bothers you, don't do it. I will add, if you have not found shot opportunities on deer you would feel comfortable to take after 14years of trying, going against your gut and taking a button will not change anything but make you feel guilty for going against your compass. I'd suggest you look elswhere to find the answers you need to harvest the deer you seek. Obviously the button bucks you see have buck dad's and doe mom's who survived the years to breed. They are there to be found and are clearly not where the botton bucks are when under your stand.
You can always change your techniques, tactics, and/or location to improve your odds. You can always actively hunt small game to improve your skills and vet your ability to arrow game. I lost count the number of squirrel, rabbit, and vermin I arrowed before I was allowed to loose an arrow on a deer. That was over three and a half decades ago and I continue the practice to this day.
If you choose to take button bucks, then be comfortable with this choice as you alone must live within your skin.
Good Luck,
Daddy Bear
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From a management perspective there is absolutely nothing wrong with (and lots to gain by) taking doe fawns, buck fawns, yearlings and mature does, especially where the deer population is too high anyway. Whether or not to shoot these deer is more of a personal choice based on the 'warm and fuzzy' (or maybe the ego-padding) aspect, but certainly not the management aspect.
I'd like to think that as ethical hunters who hunt primarily for challenge and sport rather than survival our concern would be MUCH more focused on taking and making good clean shots than on the rest of it. Despite the lucrative opportunities offered by 'monster bucks'(see TV hunting shows and camo ads) antler and body size are nothing more than peripherals to the main effort. Sure, we all enjoy the thrill of outwitting a big deer and to say otherwise would be (for most anyway) a lie. But lets not make it more than what it is.
So, don't feel bad about taking those smaller deer. Rather, strive for and feel good about making a good shot on whatever deer you shoot. And if it happens to be a smaller deer, feel good about helping the deer herd survive and the game managers do their job.
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Tim, shoot and eat good and when you do score post a photo as I for one would love to see a photo of your first trad kill.
My wifes first and only bow kill was a button. We were sky high with excitement. I was so proud of her I would have had the dang thing mounted for her if she want it done.
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i to have never yet but i would when i get a chance its good eating
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If you haven't shot a deer with your bow in 14 seasons, shot the next one that comes along don't worry about the size and have fun.
Your next one can be bigger.
Don
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My main goal right now is a spotted fawn that I been seeing lately. Man they sure taste good. Venison Veal...hard to beat.
I have yet to harvest a deer with trad and will not hesitate to shoot the first one that gives me the opportunity, so long as I do not arrow a doe with a dependent fawn, I will feel fine and be mighty proud of my first. And the most tender meat is found on the young'uns.
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I want to add something after reading gatorgars comment.
I moved from Michigan to Idaho in 1985; and when I left - shooting a doe was just becoming the act of a 'real hunter'. It was the last gasps of the 'the best hunter gets a buck in the first light of opening day with one shot' era.
The taking of antlerless deer has proven to be a biological nessesity for all deer herds. Button bucks are antlerless deer.
In the fifties; sixties and seventies- the taking of an antlerless deer was something few ever dared try bragging about. But slowly that changed; as knowledge increased about proper wildlife management techniques and realities.
Now some apologize for shooting antlerless deer- attributing their acts to 'game management'; 'QDA' manual stuff.
I learned a long time ago that does can be really really hard to hunt; and taking any deer with a bow is a cool thing.
So- I move to Idaho; and right off the bat I realize that everybody in every spectrum of society here had a taste in their mouth for calf elk. Shoot a bull - cool ! Shoot a calf; and people would huddle around the person with one hand out and big begging eyes.
Elk calf taste like veal. They are so good its unreal.
Button bucks and first year does taste better than any age the deer will be.
Fear not to fling; the great feast awaits- let your arrow sing.
( through the air: you know...) :D
Gatorgar is right. They are made of meat; and complete the feat.
( of shooting a deer with your bow -you know?)
:rolleyes: :campfire: :archer:
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I guess it depends on where and why you hunt.In a place that only allows one deer a year I would hold out for something with more weight on it because I hunt for the meat.Like around here where I can shoot 6 or more deer in a season given the chance on public land I would shoot one.Not because of any chest thumping or anything but because they are the best eating deer and have a little more meat that a young doe.I see them as the tastiest deer you can put in a pot and that is why I deer hunt in the first place.If hunting someone else property I would shoot one only if they said it was ok because people get all uptight about deer at times and I would be a guest.You kill a button buck and there will be one less deer next year.You kill a doe and there will be 3 less deer next year.By shooting the little guy and spareing the doe you will have two more tender ones for next year and not impact the deer numbers.Lots of ways to look at things. :)
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My first trad kill was a button buck and since then I have mistook one for a doe. No regrets and a pan full of yummy steak. :thumbsup:
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My first deer was a button buck and it was the only one.
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Tim, if you have never taken a deer then my advice is to shoot whatever deer gives you an opportunity. Don't watch hunting videos and buy into the whole theory that you HAVE to shoot only big bucks. My first bow killed whitetail was a button buck, and I still remember it to this day. I don't ever shoot them anymore, but at that time if someone complained to me about it I would have had words with them. That being said, I live in an area where seeing deer while hunting is not an often occurence. As an example: this season I have nearly 70 hours logged on stand and I have seen only 11 deer. I hunt alot. But if a guy living in my same area only got to hunt 35 hours a season and shot a button buck then good for him. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with are experienced deer hunters who shoot anyting and everything. One of the best deer hunters I know shoots any deer that gives him a shot. The guy has P&Y deer on his wall, yet he will take a button buck at every opportunity. And if he runs out of tags? Well his wife has some. He keeps hunting.
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After 7 pages- I really want to chime in- so I will. I've PM'd Tim with my thoughts after the first day I read this. I too feel they are off limits even for a first deer, and I feel the same for doe fawns. It has nothing to do with the Disney syndrome- it has more to do with trying to teach my children about hunting and ethics. Yes- we are allowed to kill them by law, but, by personal standards- I wouldn't feel much pride by killing a fawn and taking it home for my family to eat. Are they tasty- I'm not sure cause I've never killed one. 25 years ago my younger brother shot his first with a bow- a bb. My older brother and I were excited for him- but that elation ran low when we found the button buck. We have taken many deer, and for a few years- it was the meat that sustained our family. But we have always felt that fawns were off limits- and held ourselves to letting them pass. The majority of fawns are travelling with a mature doe- and she should be the true target of the hunt. I don't buy into the theory that fawns won't survive the winter without a doe- I feel they join the first family group they happen upon, and survive just fine. Personally- I usually pass on does that have fawns with them, just depends on how my freezer looks at the time.
So- to each their own- and I don't judge others- I just choose to pass the young of the year and let them grow......