Does anyone else shoot poorly while shooting at targets but is deadly when shooting at an animal. For instance you could put me in front of a 3d target and i will probably miss, but put me in the woods with a squirrel hoppin' around out to around 30 yards and i'll hit it more times than not. Does this occur with anyone else?
In 23yrs of trad shooting,I've heard it a million times.....I don't buy that for a minute!
no offense but if I knew I couldn't hit a 3d I wouldn't even be trying at live game. Even a squirrel. It's alive like a deer is alive.
work on 1 thing at a time. I shot for 6 months before I could competently hunt game.
QuoteOriginally posted by Swamp Pygmy:
no offense but if I knew I couldn't hit a 3d I wouldn't even be trying at live game. Even a squirrel. It's alive like a deer is alive.
work on 1 thing at a time. I shot for 6 months before I could competently hunt game.
Now thats a bullseye. I agree.
Not with archery.
I can give you the benefit of a doubt though because I do know that (for me) there is some psychological voodoo about having only one chance. My auto .22 is every bit as accurate as my bolt .22 but I'll hit more with the bolt. I think it's because I know I only have one chance. Being a lefty using a right handed bolt gun essentially makes it a single shot when there's a scope on it.
But I've never seen a guy who could pick doves out of the sky or nail squirrels with a .22 that couldn't wear a target out all day long.
EDIT: Are we talking about missing the 12 ring or missing the target altogether? What I wrote above was assuming you would miss the 12 ring every time.
I may be the exact opposite. I shoot ok on 3ds, but seem to rush too much when the deer or hog is in front of me. I've killed a bunch, but have missed more than my share of what would have been a 12 every time at a 3d shoot. It makes me made for a minute or two and then I just have to laugh. Mostly to keep from crying. Don
Do you think it might be that you are concentrating more on the smaller target? Or that the pressure felt at a tournement shooting in front of others is alot different than shooting at game.
Guru I don't belive he is trying to sell anyone anything. Not trying to start an argument but He just asked if anyone else had the same problem. I have shot Trad for 31 years and can place at just about most every shoot I attend. I have no problem shooting in front of a crowd but I do get shook up shooting a live game. I have friends that I can outshoot on a regular basis that are killing machines in the woods. Different people handle the pressure of each situation differently I guess.
Could be possible I suppose, but it defies all logic that one could not hit a 3d target with no adrenaline but be deadly in the woods. I just can't imagine hitting a squirrel at 30 and missing a 3d deer.
Steve
Some folks cop out by saying..."I ain't much on targets, but put some fur in front of me and...." In the book, "Bowhunting's Whitetail Masters" there is a chapter dedicated to a gentleman from Indiana named John Hale. John has killed a truckload of "record class" whitetails as well as caribou, elk, black bear. If you were to shoot with John on a one one one basis at the back yard range or stumpin', you'd better be on your game if you intend to keep up. Go to a bow shoot with him and there a times you would think he was shooting for the first time. A cop out for some....most likely, but I can't say always. Mike
In my years of archery experiance I have actually seen this with a fiend of mine. He could not shoot targets well,I think that it was a combination of "target Panic" and "stage fright" but he made excellent shots on deer every year. He told me that he just could not get serious about shooting at inanimate objects because it was meaningless to him. I still believe that when he shot targets alone he shot well. He just could not shoot well in front of people. I cannot recall him missing a shot at a deer.
In the Wensel brother's dvd, Spirit of the bow, Barry says the same thing. He don't shoot well in front of people, but when on stand and not thinking about who's gonna see him shoot, he usally gets eer done. Great DVD by the way. DB
I can see shooting bad in front of people maybe but not just on targets to animals
Many guys flubbing 25-35 yard shots on the 3-D course kill tons of critters. Many of them only shoot inside 20 yards at live critters.
When I shoot in front of certain friends I can choke and shoot poorly but I am generally dead on when by myself and when shooting live game. If I was by myself and couldn't get most of them "in the money" on foam; I wouldn't hunt with a bow.
Do they miss the targets when shooting alone? Some folks don't do well in crowds and I get that, but if you can shoot at live alone you best be able to hit foam alone.
sometimes when im shooting with a group of people around me i get nervouse and tense up. but when im in a blind or in the deer woods everything is so free and peaceful i dont worry as much, i feel more confident in my shooting ability simply because i am enjoying myself so much because im in the woods and hunting. that being siad, i can hit a target just fine when im alone, i just get stage fright or frustrate or distracted by things that dont have any meaning to me when in my treestand. good hunting brother.
Shooting poorly when in front of people is not much different that the excitement, nerves you face when a buck is standing at 10 steps... Practice until you can hit the 3D target consistently... Anything less is just not ethical.
I have seen it said here a bunch of times, and it has happened to me too, we all tend to shoot better when we pick a spot rather than shooting at a big bulk. Woodsman3 compared his shooting at 3D targets with shooting at squirrels. The 3D targets are often big animals like deer, elk, hogs and bears where people just shoot at a large bulk. Squirrels are small targets that make you choose a spot, because they are only the size of a spot. I nailed a rat though its tiny shoulders at 15 yards in my back yard a few weeks ago while I was target shooting. My shot at the rat was far better than my average shot at the 2x2 foot target! I think it was because I was concentrating on that little spot. It takes me effort on every shot to do that on the big target, and sometimes my concentration is off which causes my shot to be off too. I don't know if that is a good explanation, but I doubt Woodsman3 is just making up that story to sound like an idiot.
Allan
Allan,
Just curious as to which bow in your stable took out the rat ??? :)
If I can't hit a 3d or paper target, I won't set foot in the woods with my bow. The animals I hunt deserve at least that level of respect.
Kevin,
Phenolic Morrison Shawnee "A" low wrist riser with full pinecone carving (used to be Bob Morrison's personal riser) and foam/carbon Dakota "D" limbs with Copperhead skins (used to be your limbs!!!). Great combination and shoots lights out both on targets and little rodents. ;) Now if I can just get a deer in range ....
Did you just have a feeling about the good mojo in those limbs you sent my way? Do you think they can handle something bigger than a rat?
Hope your season is going well Kevin.
Take care.
Allan
I HATE shooting in front of people but do well on game(Like everyone I do miss on game).
I have a friend that is pretty good on targets but GREAT on samll game.He shot five squirrels with his recurve one day and three another time.
He also has missed 100 lb hogs at 15 yards, go figure?
I've been shooting traditional archery for 300 years so I know what I'm talking about.
Ha Ha!
That kills me when people throw that in. I work with teachers that have taught for 30 plus years and are still terrible.
I find 3-D shoots the most unnatural thing in the world. Walking a 3-D course by myself is much better practice.Bowhunting and solitude just go together.
I'll take woodsmanship skills over shooting ability any day!
I don't shoot well in competition, but shoot very well alone and when hunting.
It's totally possible...because the one thing I've learned about people is that we are wired similarly...yet diffently.
Just because a person hasn't personally experienced it themselves...doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that someone else hasn't experienced it.
The ability to focus and concentrate can be affected by the enviroment and situation.
Target Panic and Buck Fever also exist. It's a state of mind that effects a person's ability to perform and can affect people differently under different circumstances.
The other thing that also applies to the human condition...is that people will often make up excuses for their poor performance. Sometimes it's real and others it's not.
Ray ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by MI_Bowhunter:
If I can't hit a 3d or paper target, I won't set foot in the woods with my bow. The animals I hunt deserve at least that level of respect.
QuoteOriginally posted by tarponnut:
I've been shooting traditional archery for 300 years so I know what I'm talking about.
Ha Ha!
That kills me when people throw that in. I work with teachers that have taught for 30 plus years and are still terrible.
Tarponnut, I hope that wasn't directed toward me.....I guarantee you don't want to go there!
I still don't buy the original example of a guy that will most likely miss a 3D target, but can go out and hit squirrels with regularity....com'on
I can certainly see how someone can take shooting at a live animal WAY more serious than a piece of foam. That being said I'm a little bit with Guru on this one. If you can hit a squirrel at 30yrds than a hunk of foam with a dot should not be a problem.
Well said Ray (Black Wolf).
Curt, no offense meant in any way.
There is no greater teacher than experience.
I just think that the original posting is entirely possible.
Semper Fi
I will say this, I am a decent shot and I cannot hit squirrels on a regular basis at 30 yards and no one I know can. Curt can flat out shoot and he cannot do it. I have to agree with Curt on this one, but I do better on game than targets most of the time. Just not yesterday. Shawn
I've seen the same thing with my shotgun for many years. I shoot better than 50% on clay target practice, but when I have to walk 3 miles to find a covey of quail I hit better than 75%. The shot at a quail means more and I want it. Hit clay? pphhh... who cares.
Something similar I've noticed about archery practice is just practicing I usually shoot pretty good. Close to deer season my practice shots get much better because there is a real purpose to it.
Apparently some people don't experience this, but that doesn't make it not so for other people. Think I'll quit hunting because of it? Not a chance.
Other people experience what they call "buck fever" and/or "target panic". I don't suffer from either, but I won't insist it can't happen to you.
I think the buck/panic is far more likely to make a bad hole in something.
I think your mind is your own worst enemy when shooting/hunting.
I'll be the first person to admit it. My breath gets short, wrist and fingers get twitchy and my knees get a bit shakey. But...when I start to draw my bow and pick a spot on the animal, I tune everything out. Its hard to explain, but my mind blanks out and for a few seconds, I can't remember anything. I don't even concentrate that hard on my midterms! (but nothing dies during a midterm, except maybe my grades..)
But during a 3D shoot...anything goes. If I'm keeping my own score, I generally fall apart. If I make it to a shootout and have 1000 people watching me, I fall apart. But, if one of the other guys in the group is keeping score, and we are heckling each other, and all is good, there's a chance I could win something.
On a side note, if I'm stalking an animal, I don't feel the least bit of "buck fever". But if the animal is coming towards me while I'm in a blind or in a stand, I get as jittery as anything.
Its interesting how diffrent situations have their own type of stressors.
After reading some of these threads I am kind of surprised at the responses and then again not. What the OP is experiencing is very similar to what some high-level golfers experience. In a practice situation the shooter/golfer will tend to analyze every movement. "Oh I missed left, I must be torquing the bow." So the next shot they concentrate on not torquing the bow and pluck the string instead. Obviously this leads to a confidence issue which further complicates things. On the contrary, when it is "game time" the shooting movement is more reactionary (in other words "instinctive")and focused and less muddled by over analyzing. That situation is far more common than some of you think. If he knows he shoots well at game, it is not unethical to hunt.
I have nit seen that exactlybut I hunted 10yrs with a guy that I could out shoot by a fair margin. the thin was he brought home twice the deer I did.
he was not a bad shot though but I could pen his yrs back.
rusty
years ago there was an old man that was a member of our archery club, one of the worst shots but every year he was the one of the first to get a deer. found out that he limited his shots to 10 yards or less.
I'm another that struggles with shooting with groups of people. Generally, when shooting on my own I do OK. But I rarely seem to shoot well when with a group.
Glad I don't hunt with spectators!
Simple question if a person can't hit a target, how do they tune their equipment to the degree they can hit squirrels or any other game? Does one go out and hope for the best? I don't get it.
Guru,
Sorry, but I don't agree with you. I've known several guys throughout my 50 years of bowhunting that were not very good on targets but always seemed to get their deer, and small game too.Just because you hav'nt seen it done or known somebody that could do it, doesn't mean it can't happen.
Never saw anyone shoot and kill squirrels consistently at 3o yards though, althougth Hill and Ferguson could and probably did.
It could also be a TP situation, i have struggled with it some and in my early shooting days i definetly had that issue. One the target i wasnt holding my anchor long enough, but on a live animal that is moving, you often have to wait for the good shot, so i would hold longer and take my time "picking my spot" my .02 anyway.
P.
Although I suspect the "can hit game but not targets" is probably used as an excuse too often, I do think there is something to it. I've known too many archers over the years that could consistently take game without wounding and then consistently do very poorly on a structured target course.
I can't hit targets very well. I can't hit game very well. At least I'm consistent. Thank God archery seasons are long and I'm persistent (translation - hardheaded) and patient (translation - old) . :)
absolutely completely possible, some folks excel under stress..others don't. For those that shoot better "in the moment" learn how too focus like that on the 3d course. For those that fall apart a bit shoot so many arrows it's so natural of a process you can still perform. For those that completely loose their ability to function, take up photography
This happens in reverse also. I know someone who is as good a shot at targets as I have ever seen and it doesn't bother him if 1,000 people are watching him. Put a buck in front of him at 15 yards and he's either going to miss or you're in for a long trailing job. So just because you can hit paper doesn't make you a good shot on game.
I have a buddy that I honestly think is the worse shot I have ever seen.He is flat terrible and I would not be sfraid to let him launch arrows at me from 20yds.Still he kills stuff every year with a bow.He shoots them real close,misses a few and I am sure wounds a few.I know for a fact however he shoots no better in the woods than he does at targets.I personally don't think anyone does.They just get lucky or get closer shots than at the 3d. jmho
I never said that bad shooters won't bring home game. A guy that is a good woodsman,expereinced hunter, but can only shoot effectively at 10yds will bring home plenty of game. He knows his limits and makes it work for him.....That's a good hunter! I'll put my money on a guy like that anytime over a hotshot with little hunting experience.
I'm talking about the original analogy about not being able to hit a 3d target,but can consistently kill squirrel size critters at 30yds.....moving no less :rolleyes:
If someone can shoot good on targets and fall apart at game, then why can`t the pendulum swing the other way?
I`m not really saying someone who shoots POORLY at targets can do amazing things in the woods, but I believe it IS possible to reach a higher performance level when the seriousness of a shot at an animal hits home.
Bad form equals bad shooting, regardless of the target, and no measure of adreneline is going to compensate for it.
A bad shooter is a bad shooter, but I believe there are shooters who reach a different level when the time is at hand.
Good point Curt. I will once again borrow a line from the spirit of the bow, dvd by the Wensel brothers. "archery is seeing how far you can get from the target and hit it. Bowhunting is seeing how close you can get and not miss." DB
"It's totally possible...because the one thing I've learned about people is that we are wired similarly...yet diffently."
Being good at one or the other is totaly in the realm of things. I was shooting my bow at Dan Toelkes one evening and struggling with hit and miss as usual. Shooting with me was Andy Duffy. He is may well be the greatest sporting clays shooter to walk the planet. HE KNOWS OF HIT AND MISS AND WHY. He looked at me and asked do you miss game like that. I said no. His reply was you have any idea why you hit at 50 yds and then miss so bad? Why I asked. He said you think miss. It is all in your head. when you are out in the field you don't think about it and let instinct take over. "After you hit your mind goes to don't miss mode ". " When I am in competion I NEVER EVER think about missing or a target that I missed,EVER". Too many subconsciously think miss and so they do .
I must say he is right. When I am working the target over and I am missing badly it is not from form but lacking concentration of just "getting it done". I truely belive many miss at the range because they are not letting their natural abilities do their best.
That one little bit of advice really helped. For many hunting is when the "game" face goes on. No pun intended.
BTW I think Andy charges $175/hr for advice like that. That guy is a machine! I listen when he speaks.