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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Apex Predator on October 14, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
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I know this debate has been beat to death, but I still can't figure it out. I have always been a 12-14 strand dacron man. Now that I am building bows I want to tweak the performance some. I have tried TS1 Plus in the past on a Hill bow and was not happy with the extra noise. Now I am building straight and mild R/D longbows. I figured it was time to try again. I bought some D97 and twisted up a 12 strand string. I used as short of a serving as I could get away with. I think it's .024 FF serving. I installed the same wool puffs that work so well on my dacron strings. I tried this string on each of my bows, one straight and one R/D. Both bows are 66" NTN. There is a noticeable performance difference which requires me to drop about 50 grains off my point weight on each bow. It feels crisp at the shot and both bows seems to have a little less shock, even though they are very mild to start with. The one complaint that outweighs all others for me is the noise. They are both much louder! The sharp "tink" noise is not something I can get use to at all. It sounds like rapping a wooden spoon on my bow limb. What am I missing, or does everyone that praises these strings just live with that obnoxious noise? I did play with tuning to see if it would get better. No dice!
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I don't use the stuff much myself, but I have read that you can shoot a lower brace height with FF, and that may solve the noise problem.
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Don't know what to tell you. Every longbow I've owned was quieter with TS1 than with dacron. Is the "tink" the arrow knocking off the riser?
A well-tuned bow, regardless of string material, always has some noise at the shot. Dacron's pitch is lower than most of the low-stretch materials. Gently pluck a bare string and you'll hear the difference. But as far as volume, the lower-stretch materials (except regular old FF) have always been quieter on my longbows. I'd be more concerned with volume than with pitch, though lower frequency sound waves do travel farther.
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I don't know if I am any help here I use B-50 mostly ( price more than any reason) I like the crisp feel of FF I prefer 97 when I use it. Keeping the fibers running the same way, padding the loops, beaver strips or wool. I don't think I have gotten a FF string as quiet as a B-50. JMO
blueline
I have not tried the TS1 mentioned above
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Marty, some of the bowyers I know put B50 dacron on their bows and tell the customers that if they choose they can use D97 or any other fast flight material if they choose too since the bow can handle it. Personally, I am sticking with B50 for a number of reasons: (1) with a low draw weight and a short draw length I shoot a low brace height on both the recurve and longbow to help that sharp broadhead when hunting, and (2) the B50 produces less noise than the other materials even though my bows are capable of fast flight material. I don't think string stretch is that big of a concern for people using the B50 material.
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What you describe sounds like an arrow with the wrong spine or you have a brace height too low.Try raiseing the braceheight some to see if it helps.You can shoot a higher brace and still get better performance if that helps.You also said you ad to drop arrow weight with the new string so you are now shooting lighter arrows than before.That sometimes means a little more sound.
Personally I have never seen b-50 be any quieter on any bow unless it might be a recurve.The main reason then is just because the bow was shooting slower. jmo
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Everybody has different perceptions. I personally cannot tolerate the twangy sound that dacron makes...
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I know what you mean about the difference in sound. It's not so much pitch as it is "sharpness" of the sound that bothers me. I have 2 R/D bows, a Morrison and a Pronghorn, that like D97, but I couldn't stand the noise until I stumbled on the secret. Try a Mountian Muffler type string if you can find it. The difference is amazing. :readit:
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Well, I normally shoot 650 grain arrows, but had to reduce tip wieght by 50 grains to stiffen them up some for the D97. This is on 50# bows. I think I have plenty of arrow weight. I dropped the point weight because they were showing a little weak while bare shafting. I was able to fine tune each bow, but can't live with the violent sound of the D97. Maybe I am just used to a very quiet bow, and others are able to settle for less?
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Maybe you just built a Dacron bow instead of a FF bow. ;) If you like the b-50 why not just shoot that?If I saw the results you speak of I would certainly do so but do not think it is the norm.jmo
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iv had mixed results i could not get ff as quiet as the Dacron one some of my bows but then others have been way way better with Fast Flight +450 D97 some bows just seem to me to suit a certain string better.
when i switched the sounds of the fast flight was weird but now i don't like the feel or sound of Dacon feels like its slow and vibrating, just get used to things i guess
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I get comments all the time on how quiet my longbows is, and I use a Dynaflight '97 string. My arrows weigh 9-9.5 gpp. It's a deflex/reflex design.
When you switch strings, you have to re-tune, and not just the arrows. Besides making sure you have good arrow flight (not just watching the arrow fly--use O.L.'s method), be sure your nock fit is correct and your silencers are in the right spots. I use one small set of cat whiskers, tied on around the string. Moving them an inch or so up or down the string can make a difference. Rubber works best as a silencer in my experience.
Chad
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One thing I have found to help quite down D97 strings is to pad the loops with extra strands. I like 12 strand strings with 18 strand padded loops.
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I really want this to work, so will continue to play with it. I just haven't seen or "heard" the results most talk about with these newer string materials.
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like madness i have the loops of the FF strings padded
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Padded loops do help--I use dacron for padding, usually pad out the loops in Dynaflight to 18 strands.
Chad
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I find that on some bow designs the type of FF string material can make a difference. I have a heavily R/D longbow that can be noisy with the wrong string. I've found that D97 on that bow is high pitched and a little loud. TS+ was quieter yet and regular Fast Flight was the quietest.
Strand count can also make a difference on noise levels with certain bows.
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I just use the FF plus on my bows, 14 strands for everything up to 65#, and it makes a big difference in feel, sound and performance over B50. Maybe Destefano will chime in, he experiments quite a bit with the different modern string materials.
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Ive researched this topic to death just as it has been posted upon a lot. OL Adcock has the best wisdom on it but I think he will be in agreement with me on this.
The reason there is more noise is because the string is less stretchy. The energy from the bow that is left over from firing the arrow does not go into the string directly instead it causes noise which is excess energy. In the switch form B50 to FF you have to understand there is going to be a performance gain in the form of ft/lbs of energy. If you use the same arrows as you most likely will you will see an increase in noise. This is because the string imparts more energy into the arrow just the same way as an increase in bow poundage will impart more energy into the arrow. To maximize your efficiency with any bow you have to use correct grains/lb of arrow weight. I think you can see where I am going with this.
There is an increase in noise because the arrows you are using are too light. They were just the right weight when you were using B50 but now with FF they are too light and they cause excess energy loss or noise. You even exacerbated the problem when you dropped down in point weight to stiffen up the spine of your arrows.
In short the arrows are too light and you need at least 10 gr/lb of arrow weight.
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He said earlier that he's shooting a 650gr arrow out of a 50lb bow. Even with the 50gr drop he still is within the 10gr per pound.
I say who cares if you shoot Dacron or FF. As long as you have a setup that works is all that matters.
JMO
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Man ya guys don't know nothing about noise. I like to shoot olympic risers and ilf carbon limbs. I have compound shooters duck when I released :) .
yep pad the loops. don't trim the fuzzy stuff off the loop braid and don't wax the loops or braid. of course for on some bows that is just the getting started.
rusty
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I have shot both and for me and my bows D-97 is much quieter than B-50. The B-50 seems real twangy to me. Guys who shoot with me always comment on how quiet my bows are. I do use wool yarn aroung the string ends and wool for silencer or fox silencers as well. Shawn
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The reason there is more noise is because the string is less stretchy.
That can cause more noise, but it's only one of many causes. I shoot a little less than 10 gpp with a 30.5" draw and I have no problems with bow noise.
Other causes are a nock that fits too tight, a bad release, arrows off spine, incorrect silencer placement, etc. etc. etc.
He's shooting a 600 grain arrow from a 50# bow with the Dynaflight '97 string, so I don't think arrow weight is the culprit.
I agree that some bows seem to "like" one material over another--danged if I can figure that one out.
Chad
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On my bows, TS1 isn't louder, although it's definitely a higher pitched sound than dacron.
Don't forget, you are right next to that bow when it goes off. The sound you hear is likely not even close to what a deer 20 yards away may or may not hear.
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Thought I would add my thoughts to this topic.
I have a Blacktail Elite TD bow. She's 66", 42# @ 30". She's not a light bow physically because the riser wood is basically made up of two exotic woods; cocobolo for the main riser, a heavy wood and footed with shedua a medium weight wood. The limbs are bamboo. She's strung with Dyna97. I don't know how many strands make up the string, but Norm Johnson's wife, Kathy, makes the strings for Norm's Blacktail Elite recurves. The brace height is 7 1/2". There are a pair of rubber cat whiskers attached to the string. I shoot a 32" Easton aluminum XX78 2215 arrow and with a 150 grain point, the entire arrow weighs 550 grains. This comes out to 13 grains per pound. I also use a tab. The bow is whisper quiet upon arrow release. No string twang. I believe the string has the proper amount of strands combined with the heavy weight of the riser (overall weight of the bow), the use of a heavy arrow and rubber cat whiskers dampens string noise.
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If you are using TS-1 try making an endless loop string to get the most out of it. That's what I shoot on both a R/D and D shape longbow with half a cat whisker on either end and both bows are real quite as well. Woolies are nice but cat whiskers are better.
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T
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Try catwhiskers instead of wool puffs or string leaches, puffs dont seem to always work with D-97..
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Well, after all the advice I've decided to build a new string with padded loops and try some cat whiskers on this one. Right now I have to go glue up another bow. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again, Marty
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I use 8125 and fast flight strings on all of my bows, even selfbows, and have always found them to be quiter than dacron, as others have said I pad the loops with dacron. String silencers are often placed too low to work properly, I have found them to work better if they are closer to the limb tips instead of halfway down the string...Glenn...
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In reality, considering the cost between B-50 and low stretch string, the difference in performance isn't really worth it. Especially on a recurve.
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I am using "String Leeches" on my fast flight strings.
These absorb vibrations, and being quite small, I doubt they slow the string down much.
These have worked well for me on a mild R/D longbow (Mississippi Lakes Longbow) a 7 Lakes Longbow (mild r/d) and two Dryad R/D bows.
All these bows are quite quiet once you have them tuned.
Apex, with your handiwork skills, I am sure that you will get this sorted out, and have your bows shooting a quiet as death, soon enough.
Good Luck with your newest project.
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They shoot very quiet now with dacron, just trying to fix something that ain't broken I guess. Thanks for all the input folks. I love this site!
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Mike, The performance difference is like shooting a bow that's 5-10#s heavier. I consider that significant and worth the extra cost, especially on selfbows where you really want to tweak a little more out of it.
Having said that, I'd shoot it even if it were slower. I prefer the crisper feel of the shot and decreased handshock and noise.
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I use the d-97 and pad the loops. I also use string leeches and a heavy arrow. My bow is very quiet.
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Wassup Marty!! Man, I've been having the exact same problems you have with the 97. My bows are quieter with the dacron. I was so confussed at first, I even broke out the baby powder to see If the noise was coming from my arrow hitting the riser somwhere. No luck. Changed arrow weight, spine, length, carbon, wood, aluminum, no luck. Tried not putting on string silencers for all my test with both the dacron and the d97,figured it was obvious that the puffs would quiet the string in the end. Have come to the conclusion that this particular bow out of the herd just likes dacron. It really pi$$es me off too cause Its one of my favorites. I've not given up hope on it yet. When I can afford it I will try a diff. FF material and see if that makes any difference. Ive tried every thing above and none made the difference I was lookin for. Hope we can come up with something that works for everybody. I think some just have not heard what a longbows whisper sounds like.
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Every bow that I've owned that had F.F. on it was loud to me, no matter what I tried. B-50 all the way!!!!
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Well I twisted up a new string last night. Twelve strands of D97 with 4 extra strands of B50 woven into the string loops. I tied on some cat whiskers. Noticeable difference! I then started moving the whiskers around on the string. I found the sweet spot only about 8" from the tips. Now it's almost quiet enough to hunt with.
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you might want to consider upping the total weight of your arrows. absorb more of the energy. i would go stiffer spine and add tip weight not reduce it. If you have a crono, do a before and after with what you have now. then change shaft weight and stiffness. you may find with the added weight the speed is the same and the noise has come down to what it was with b-50. BUT you are now putting more energy into the air(arrow). Faster usually makes more noise.