Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Danny Rowan on May 02, 2006, 04:45:00 AM
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Thought this might help some newcomers and maybe some of the oldtimers will chime in with some no nonsense advise also. Lets make it easy.
Ya know, there are a lot of new shooters/hunters that do not have access to a mentor to learn some basics and they try and read what to do, many get confused in the search. I thought I would tell how I tune my bows in a very simple manner.
First, when I get a new bow I put the string on and get my brace set correctly. Now my instructions are for a modern recurve or longbow, not a self bow so remember that. Once I have the brace set I leave the bow strung for 24 hours to let the string streach in,don't matter the string material, let it streach in first, then reset your brace and you should be ready to go. Now I use my bow scale and a ruler to get a starting nock point and use a small piece of masking tape to mark it.
Now the arrows. I do not bare shaft or paper tune, too confusing. Here is how I determine a starting point. I take the bow weight, lets say 60# recurve,first add 5# for center shot, now for every inch of draw over the standard amo of 28 I add 5#, so for my 29 inch draw that would leave me with 70# of spine,if the bow is using ff type material I add another 5# which brings us to 75# of spine. Now if I am using a point above 145gr. I add another 5# so now I have a spine of 80# with an arrow of 29 1/2" BOP. I have found that with my draw and the weight I shoot, 80# is my spine on all of my bows.
I take 6 arrows of the corecct spine and I shoot three at a time watching my arrow flight for any wobble. After the first three arrows I adjust my nock up or down depending on what I see (now I normally set my nock at 9/16 above center as I have been doing this a long time and have found that on almost all bows this is my optimum nock point for my style.) Once you find yours then you can start there on every bow you shoot and you will probably find you do not need much adjustment. Anyway, shoot three arrows in a set and adjust until you have straight arrow flight.
I then put on the correct weight broadhead and shoot a little more to make sure.
Works very well for me. Hope some of you can use this or add to it as you wish.
Danny
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Good info. Joseph
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good info, but I do take some exception with the spine of the arrow. If you are using wood I go with your analysis. But I sure found that does not seem to work with the new carbons.
I have a 49 lb checkmate firebird at 28 inch draw. I draw 29 inch. If I go with your arrow pick I would be in the 400 size carbon. They just are to stiff. I find with 125 gr tip, 3 feathers that are 5.5 bananna cut I get the best overall arrow flight with the 500 size carbon arrows.
I do the same with a new string and for the new guys, it does take several playing around to find that sweet spot for brace height, the bow will then not have a lot of noise.I then just put on a nock point 9/16 above center for starting point, catwiskers silencers and then shoot a few at about 6 ft into target. Based on what I see I may move the nock point up or down to fine tune it. I then move outside and shoot some arrows at 10, 15, and 20 yards. I keep looking for arrow flight, side to side or up and down movement. I may have to move the nock point a hair to fine tune.
Once I get it shooting a good arrow, I measure brace height and nock point with the name of the bow, string type, spilt release or 3 fingers under, tab or glove and date. I have this data to help when I have to replace the string.
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Yep, all I shoot is wood. Never liked alum. and do not like carbon. My method may not work with carbon or alum.
I do the same Bill, by recording all the info for the bow so when I change strings I can get it set up in no time.
Another thing I do is make all my arrows so that when I reach anchor the broad head is just touching my bow hand finger, just another check to make sure I am drawing to the same point every time.
Danny
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I shoot a 50# @ 28 r/d longbow. My draw is 28. I bought 60-65 ash spined arrows and they were so stiff the nock end hit the riser on release. I'm not sure if my bow is lighter than advertised or what but there is no substitute for buying multiple spines and testing.
Costs more $$, but I found lots of people willing to trade shafts.
Cameron
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Good Info, Danny.
Gracias
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FYI, AMO spine weights are determined by measuring deflection on 26 inch centers but the results are for 28 inch arrows. The reason that many guys find heavier spines work well in their modern bows in because of high degerees of centershot.
Danny you are getting good results but the more accurate way to reason through this is not really adding 10 lbs for the 2 inches from 26"-28" ( That 5 pounds per inch formula WOULD apply for going from 28"-30")...Rather, add 5 lbs for bows cut to center or near center and add 10-15 lbs for bows cut past center.
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Danny,
That's pretty much what I do (no bareshaft or paper) but once the arrow is flying well, I do shoot broadheads and field points to see if they're shooting to the same spot. If so, I'm good to go.
Bill,
The Easton Axis 400 carbons spine out around 85-90 pounds, whereas the 500's are 65-70. With a 125 grain point, I'm not surprised the 500 is flying well for you. I can shoot a Beman MFX (that's the woodgrain that's the same spine as the Easton Axis) with a 125 grain point cut 29.5 and drawn to 29 inches from my 55 pound Super Shrew Scout recurve. However, I like the 400 size with 100 grain brass point and 175 grain points better with that bow.
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That a good tip for how long your arrow shold be so you can use it as a draw check as well. Now a stupid question, why do tradtion archers not use a kisser buttion to make sure they get the same draw each time ? I do not use one as with a spilt finger draw I lock in on my face and also put my nose on the string....
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"Another thing I do is make all my arrows so that when I reach anchor the broad head is just touching my bow hand finger, just another check to make sure I am drawing to the same point every time"
BTW (in addition to like tuning styles), great minds think alike Danny. My arrows are 29.5 inches and I draw 29". The back of the Razorcap blade bumps up against my forefinger and I know I'm there consistantly. :thumbsup:
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OK OLD Timers,
You say set the brace height. I have always wondered about HOW to go about setting the brace height. I have normally just set it somewhere around where the bowyer sugguest and dont fiddle, but if I was wantin' to fiddle with it, what do you fellas do? What are you looking for?
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Steve,
Watch who you're calling an old timer you young whipper snapper!
You're right from the standpoint that you want to stay within bowyer recommend brace range. However, within that range, there's generally a sweet spot where the bow will be quieter and you also may feel less vibration (generally the higher the brace). The tradeoff is that you will loose a little performance as you go higher in brace (shorter power stroke). If you don't notice a difference, then keep it as low as bowyer recommends (usually the bower will give a 1/2 inch range as the recommended brace).
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For setting my brace height, I get it up to where the string doesn't bite me, when not using an arm guard. I then go for nock point. Some brace height tuning may be necessary, but it will generally be greater, than less.
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Ok guys,what I've just read is what I do also and it's always worked sooner or later after some playin a round.However I've recently acquired yet another bow its a Black Widow TFIII its 53# @ 28" I draw 29" and have my arrows cut 30"B.O.P.I've shot every thing from 70# to 90# spine all in wood and it seems that the 90's fly the best which really stinks cause they will be really hard to find.Also in the BW book you get with the bow there arrow formula says I need 94#spine so my little test seems correct just doesnt make any sense to me any ideas or advice would be appreciate. Thanks John
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Widows are cut way past center so using your formula 90/95 would be about right cause if past center 1/16 add 5# and if over that add another 5#. I have heard that most Widows need a lot of spine from woodies. Yeah POC is hard to find in that spine, but lam birch is not and it makes great arrows. You are pulling about 56# at your draw so 20# for the 30" = 76# add 5# for ff= 81# and 10# for the past center cut would be 91# and if using a point above 145gr add another 5# and you are up to 96#. Sounds right to me but some will probably disagree. Bottom line is what flys good out of the bow.
Danny
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Danny using that theory that I agree with, I could then hypothetically build my window back to center and then things should be back to "normal"or am I way off in my thinking?
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Yep if ya build your window out to center then you would shoot a weaker spine.
Danny
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I have found that if the carbon shafts you get are to stiff you can put rubber tube up the inside full length and this softens the spine about two spine ratings and adds weight also.
Cheers KIM
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Danny, do You shoot Split-Finger or 3-Under? And how does that Effect your Previous Excellent, I may add, Instructions?
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Shakes, I shoot split finger so do not know if shooting 3 under would affect my method. I would be interested if someone that shoots 3 under would test the theory and see if similar results are found.
Danny
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Boy Danny, times have changed since you last posted on this thread shootin carbons and all.
I got your formula a while back from someone else when trying to find some arras to shoot outta a widow i used to own. This formula worked and saved me a lot of headache.
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I have a set of POC arrow shafts cut to my standard 28.5" with 125 points and no feathers in spines from 45-100. I shoot these starting at my guestimated spine using a similar formula to Danny's. I try a couple spine ranges up and down to see how they fly. Then I switch to some fletched arrows of the best flying bare shafts and see how they fly.
There is a big difference in cut past center, center and out from center bows. The center and past center bows shoot arrows nearly straight and the out from center bows like double shelf and self bows have a great deal of archers paradox, that is bend and recovery. With the archers paradox is is more important that the arrows hit where they are pointed.
Perfect arrow flight is hard to reach but is beautiful when you get there - a clean wobble free spiral to the target. You will know it when you see it.
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Forgot all about this post,LOL.
Yeah Jim,once I started shooting AD trads I was hooked. Between those and the older carbonwoods, tough to beat since I can get the weight I want 675-750gr depending on insert and point weight.
I still like wood but hard to find the old Sweetland and Alaskan forgewood compressed shafts in the spine I want.
Danny
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Is there a brace height chart for older bows you buy second hand and the manufacturer is out of business? I have 2 Wing Falcons in 25# and 40# and cannot get any definitive info on the brace for these bows.
Sam
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Sam,
Most of those older bows do well around 8" of brace. Might go to the collectors forum on here and get a better answer.
Danny
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Danny,
How much extra would you add for a 200 grain head?
I have some 85-90 Shurewoods weighing in at 700 grains that shoot pretty darn good with a 200 grain ACE broad head. I got em for another bow and just trying to figure out how to get to the end of that formula for future reference.
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as to brace height; I noticed Byron Fergusons brace height on his bows to be what looks to be about ten inches to a foot... is brace height good at 8 inches then bad at 9; then good again at 10- is there a magic formula? Like involving bow length; grip type; center shot .... ???
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Jim,
I was taught to add 5# of spine for anything over 145gr. I used to have some 90# Alaskan Forgewoods and at 29" with a 200 gr Ace Super Express they flew perfect out of a 64# Blacktail.With the 200 gr head those arrows were pushing 1000gr. I gave the arrows to a dear friend to try.
Danny
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Brian, I can't imagine ANY bow being braced at ten inches to a foot unless maybe it's some novelty super short, reverse handled, super deflexed bow like the li'l suckling bows and I dont think even those are that high. Longbows generally brace beteen 6 and 7 1/2 inches, recurves roughly 7 to 9 inches.
Brace hight is what it is. It is best in one particular spot for any given bow and arrow setup. Not good at 8, bad at 9 and good at 10. More realistic is okay at 7 5/8, better at 7 3/4 dead quiet at 8 and less good at 8 1/4. It won't magically get good at 10 inches again. In fact, putting a string on a bow that braces a bow that high might actually damage it.
The numbers are an example only. You might even fine tune down to 1/16" increments.
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"now for every inch of draw over the standard amo of 26 I add 5#"
I understand that when measuring spine for wood arrows we support that arrow on each end with a span of 26"--Is the standard that the weight range i.e. 50-55lb is for that weight at a 26" draw--for some reason I always thought that the weight range-- 50-55lb spine-- was good for a bow drawing between 50 and 55lbs @ 28" not at 26"??
thanks, Rick
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Yeah but can you tuna casserole?
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Sorry, that should be for every inch over 28". I will modify the original post. Sorry for the confusion.
Danny