Trad Gang

Ok here goes.

I live in IL and my closest public hunting area an hour away is on property owned by the National Guard.  They have worked out a program with the DNR to allow hunting on the property when the guard is not there training.  (I was there over the weekend and they had a bunch of men and women training and getting to deploy yesterday.)

Well here is my conundrum.  There is a very high fence around all of the property with very high gates.  Clearly this is a fence to keep people out and to protect civilians from live training sessions.  I know that it exists to keep people out but it also keeps the deer in.  The areas size is 2500 acres.

I truly believe in Fair Chase and have always been a stickler about following the premise.

What do you all think.  Would you hunt here or not?

in a situation like that...its about population control. Hunt it!

Doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother you.  Bases are BIG.  Lot's of area for deer to hide and escape.  You will probably only see the fence on entering and exiting the base.  Your call though.

At 2500 ac I wouldn't worry about it. If it was 250ac, that would be different.     Pat

Go for it!

I agree with TrapperDave - population control. I have also seen some deer do some truely amazing things when they put their mind to it - concerning a fence. I would hunt...  JDH

I just returned from my friends ranch in Texas. 350 ac with a high fences. He only hunts it for population control. At this time there are 95+ deer on the ranch and the Bio said he needs to take 35 deer this year.  It is no slam dunk on 350ac. What is Right for one may be Wrong for another, do what you feel is right.

Mark

Not a lot of areas that big in the wild.Id love to hunt it.

My buddy hunts Picatinny Arsenal here in NJ.

The base is 6500 acres but I am not sure how much of it they can hunt what with the top secret nature of the work they do there and the thousands of pounds of buried munitions, but it's still a fair amount.

This place has fences everywhere but the hunting is needed to manage the herd and it is no easy task.

I think you should hunt it and you can justify it in knowing that, as you mentioned, the fence is to keep people out, not keep game in.  Since this is a moral dilemma that fact should give you peace of mind.

Given the definition of "Fair Chase" (below) - unless you think you had an improper advantage - there is no problem. To me - the key phrase in my comment is "you think".

"Fair Chase" is the original code of conduct first used by Boone and Crockett Club members in the early 1890s at a time when sportsmen emerged as the guardians over our game animals and birds. It was defined as the ethical, sportsmanlike, lawful pursuit, and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

You have two questions.

What is "Fair Chase"? Is both questions because it has two meanings. The first is a criteria for record book keeping and has specific definitions about fences and such.

The second meaning is "What seems fair to you personally." Only you can define this.

My choice would be to hunt the population control hunt inside the fence. With over 4 square miles of area the deer are not trapped in a pen and you will have a true challenge. I would not however submit a large buck for scoring taken from this area.

If it's the same place I'm thinking about, I've hunted there myself.

Terrain alone offsets the fence. That place is huge and rugged. Watch where you step in the dark or you'll be tumbling into a gulley. Place is thick with thorns too.

They aren't stocking the animals so there is no artificial population.  That is the one BIG thing most people "miss" when talking high fenced areas.

Population control is a cop-out! If that's all there is to it, I can let others handle that. Don't bend your ethical line by using such justifications.

As far as each particular situation, it is up to YOU! If you feel comfortable with the size of the place and the fact that the game has a fair chance of eluding you, go ahead. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT OTHERS THINK! It's what YOU think.

Personally, I doubt anyone will "condemn" you for huntin' a place like that anyway. As others said, it's not like it's 250 acres and stocked to sell hunts.

Hey I'll come hunt it.  Its legal so its ethical.  Its fair enough chase.  To me the only problem I see is when you shoot a Pope & Young you won't be able to enter it into the book.

If I had the chance to hunt in there I would not lose a wink of sleep.  I would rather hunt in a 2500 acre high fence (fence to keep people out) than sat at home.

If hunting there is perfectly legal , and you're comfortable with it....

Ethics is a personal call, if you are asking for opinions; mine would be to hunt the place.

Thank you for your Opinion.....

ethics..
its not what we think mate! its what you think

i live a half an hor from jefferson proving grounds in indiana it is where they tested ammunition,bombs and the such i have on video a deer jumping those tall fences..always deer laying on the side of the road by these fences..i put in every year for a draw tag havent been pulled yet still praying though...

This is a tough question, and there have been a lot of thought provoking opinions so far.

Hunting ethics is more of a personal thing, based on eachs own experiences and moral compass, and doesn't necessarily equate with what's legal and what's not. 2500 acres is a pretty good size chunk of land, but there are still alot of variables to be considered.

How long has the property been fenced in, and is it actually a "game proof" fence. What's the layout of the base and how much ground is actually open for hunting? Where are you hunting in respect to the fence? Is your closeness to the fence, or it's relationship to some terrain feature [or whatnot] what's governing the animals movement?

These kinds of things, and probably some more I'm not thinking of, could have an effect on whether one thinks it's fair chase or not.

I agree with Biggie on the population control thing. If they're that overpopulated there's other people to deal with it (especially on a Guard base!). I'm a hunter, not an exterminator.

For me, I'd have to pass.

I'd bet a people proof fence is not a game proof fence.
Deer can go through, over and under things we could not have a prayer getting through.
Walk the fence if you can. I'll bet you find they aren't contained.

Then go hunting with a peacful mind.  :)

Brad@work,

You(not you personally but speaking of bowhunters in a general sense) couldnt exterminate 5 deer in 50 acres in a deer season behind a high fence...if they were trying to exterminate deer they could ONLY use firearms and bait at night.

Otherwise, it just isn't going to happen.

I'll also bet its not a game proof fence if the property has terrain changes. I've seen deer belly crawl through a 3 foot high drain pipe, then walk to a chain link fence in a drainage ditch to get under the wire, coming from a National Park into a subdivision in the evening to eat pansies.

Things often aren't as black and white as we would like them to be.

We as hunters complained to game departments that we needed more deer and more opportunity. Now we have that- and non hunters have cars damaged and lives at risk in certain situations because deer are so successful at reproducing.

We as hunters better find it within ourselves to be a part of the solution to some of these problems before they take the control OUT of our hands and put it in the hands of sharpshooters and contraceptive makers.

Additionally, some folks ONLY have these limited opportunities to hunt because of financial concerns, etc. Better they take advantage of that than sit at home and watch TV I say.

I say do what you feel is right for you. BUT DON'T TRY TO ENTER A BUCK IN THE RECORD BOOK IN MY OPINION, ALSO

Enjoy it, don't pass up a chance to hunt a new place.If you don't like it ,don't go back.Besides when did "fence" become a four letter word?
 Leland

Sounds like deer management to me, I WOULD GIVE IT A TRY , if you feel the fence is a problem for you, don't go back!!!

I drew a hunt in the Newport Army Ammunitions Depot (west/central IN) several years ago. I can't remember the exact acreage (less than 500 acres I think) or the number of deer that were supposed to be inside the fence, but they were wanting the herd thinned down considerably. Weekend after Thanksgiving, 25 bowhunters- 2 deer killed and 11 deer sighted. Plenty of sign, but they must have known the hiding spots! LOL! The guards there said they have seen deer crawl under the fence all the time and watched them "appear" outside the fence in the crop fields near drainage culverts. I'd say to give it a try. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Mike

The P&Y Club rules of fair chase state that you shouldn't take an animal "While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures."

The way I interpret that point in the rules of fair chase is that the fence cannot take away the animals ability to escape from the hunter. As long as the animal can hide or get away from you I wouldn't worry about the fence. Just hunt someplace that is not near the fence.

Hunt it.  Let's keep our guardsmen and their vehicles safe from marauding deer.  :-)

The deer can out smell you out hear you and out run you. Thats fair chase to me 2500 acres is a pretty big area.

QuoteYou(not you personally but speaking of bowhunters in a general sense) couldnt exterminate 5 deer in 50 acres in a deer season behind a high fence...if they were trying to exterminate deer they could ONLY use firearms and bait at night.
 

Ray,
I agree with you here. My point was, if you don't think hunting behind a fence is quite kosher, don't justify it by saying it's for, "population control", because as you said, "it just isn't going to happen".

Also, for the record I didn't say Bill shouldn't go, just said I don't think I would. He was asking for opinions, wasn't he...

I belive I'm the one who said  "Population Control" I was in no way justifing it. I'm not looking for acceptance.  Just stating what needed to be done on the ranch...

Thank you everyone for your opinions and insight.  I have decieded that I am going to go down there and hunt it for a day and really check out the fences and see if they are deer proof.  If they aren't and the deer have plenty of opportunity to "get away" then I will hunt it more.  Just by having me with bow gives the deer an unfair advantage.

Also, thanks everyone.  On other forums you would never get true ethical reasoning.  The world of Trad still gets it.

I'd give it a try. As long as you're not sitting ove a baitpile,this situation sounds OK to ME.

If you are bowhunting on 2500 acres even if the thing was paved and you could see every deer there they would still have plenty of room to get away from you.  :bigsmyl:  

You do as you wish but I would have no problem hunting there.I don't do the record book scoreing mess anyway so that would not be any consideration to me in the first place. jmo

absolutely, brad...

2500 acres is huge.. No ethical issue on my end. I would hunt it and not think twice about it.

If P & Y had an issue about the deer, then they have an issue. I don't think any of your trad brothers would have any issue. They would want a "hunting buddy" invite..LOL
A big buck would not qualify for the book,,, buts thats alright.  No advantage in an area thats almost 4 square miles!!!

Go hunt and shoot straight.

John III

Compared to the areas we have to hunt in Iowa (with no high fences) 2500 acres is huge! The timber I usually hunt is under 150 acres. The deer generally hang around in the same section (640 acres). Granted, they could go farther away, but you are hunting a much larger area, fence or no.

I'd say, go for it. You'd be surprized how many deer can disappear in that 2500 acres.

Hunt it and make sure you close that DAMN GATE!!!  I don't want any combat oriented deer mingling with the local deer herd!!!    :biglaugh:

Unless you get them cornered for an easy shot it is a no brainer.  Go for it.  Although, if you chased them all day (on foot of course) and actually manage to corner one, I would have a hard time saying that you didn't earn it.
oxnam

quote:

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Originally posted by JoeM:
close that DAMN GATE!!!     :smileystooges: