edit to mods: if this should be in another forum, please move it. Otherwise....
Hi all,
So perhaps I am going about this wrong, but here goes. I literally came upon archery a few weeks ago. I am a college student and an avid fly fisherman who has always wanted to hunt.
I went straight to traditional and picked up a Ben Pearson Javelina, 66" 40@28. Apparently I draw 32", so accounting for some stack, I am shooting around 56# + (is heavy)
I am 6'5". My draw, using wingspan / 2.5, is 31". I bought 32" arrows. Looks like they are too short.
Both of these use same anchor: index in mouth, thumb knuckle behind jaw. Here is my draw so that the field point does NOT cross onto the shelf (ie broadhead would not hit riser)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/taylormargot/Alignment4.jpg?t=1223349112)
Here is a more comfortable posture (straighter bow arm, it feels like my back and bone structure are take the weight). Point crosses riser, or is within 1cm. I would, if nothing else, prefer some leeway while I learn.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/taylormargot/Alignment3.jpg?t=1223349156)
(thanks to Terry for the clock pictures)
Am I measuring wrong? Do I get longer arrows? Where? The easton gamegetters i bought were 32" max. Sigh. Anyone have some positive notes? Are there at least some benefits to a longer draw, besides stacking bows and arrows that are too short?
Thanks in advance. Mostly I am just confused and frustrated. It is hard being new.
I've never had that problem...LOL I'm sure someone on the gang will have a good answer. I do know this.. If you drew a heavier poundage bow your draw will be shorter. Your shoulders will be more compressed with a heavier bow.
My draw is about 2" shorter with a heavy bow.
Good shooting.
The bow is already heavy JDS3, heavy for me at least at that draw. When I reach my full draw, the limbs are no longer bending backwards, they are bending down (or simply not bending, the string seems to magically go backwards without the limbs moving?)
You mentioned that you shoot with a straight bow arm. I find that I am more accurate when my bow arm is slightly bent. Not everyone would agree that your bow arm should be bent when shooting a recurve, but quite a few people would. Try it both ways, and see what you think. If you're more accurate shooting with a slightly bent bow arm, then you'll reduce your draw length a little. Another thing would be taking a deep hook, which seems to improve a lot of peoples' shooting, and will also reduce your draw length by a little bit.
A side view picture will tell alot more than the above that you posted. Your elbow and shoulder look some what high in the pic. if this is happening you are over drawing. To answer your arrow question there are aluminum arrows that are 34".
Thanks McDave, I will look into those. Badger - I will get a side pic in a minute comparing both. This midterm examinations thing is a real hamper on forum surfing (lol typed serfing...reading about medieval serfs)
I have the same draw as you. I have had issues with finding arrows that are uncut and still to short just as you.Im a bowyer so I can make a bow at a wt/lt that works for me.Arrows now thats another thing.I shoot the Arrow Dynamics Tradition.I have to order them custom and they are 32 5/8.With this I have no problem.The plus side is that you can shoot a heavy arrow without adding weight to the arrow.My arrow is 612grns.
So dont think of it as a bad thing,but a blessing!
Mike
Two side shots. First photo matches first photo above(short draw), second photo matches second photo above (long draw). Maybe I don't need to switch arrows? Appears I got some room in the first, though alignment above is off
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/taylormargot/Side003.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/taylormargot/Side004.jpg)
Easton makes arrows to fit up to a 33" draw they might be able to set you up with something. from what I can see in the second picture you are severely over drawing your bow.I had the same problem when I started shotting recurves, I had bought oen that was to strong on the pull and a bit short on the draw# the bow shop I went through changed the string out for one about an inch longer than the one that was on it and that helped me with the draw length as well as the pull. it's something you could try, but check with eastonarchery they should be able to help with the arrow length.
http://www.eastonarchery.com
Dave
I think the first (short) draw looks more natural and more comfortable. It's really up to you though. The second picture looks like you are really extending or stretching, but again it's all about feel. I shoot with my elbow slightly bent.
Try bending the bow are just a little. When I first started out I thought that "locking" the elbow was the only thing that made sense. I had to look at a LOT of pictures before I believed...but a little bend in that elbow is a very very good thing. Some very good shots still have more bend than I could imagine is accurate...but it's a highly personal thing I suppose.
It felt awkward at first. But my shooting improved (and in your case, solves the problem) and now it feels much BETTER than a straight arm.
Being at your max DW will back this an uphill battle but give it a try. Imagine you had and artificial elbow installed by a drunk doctor who left several inches of the pin, or axle, sticking out both sides of you skin. (Graphic, I know, bear with me.) When you draw try to rotate that pin. I'm left handed so my bow arm elbow can rotate from about 2:00 to 12:30 position without hurting or making my shoulders follow my elbow. One of the things on my "checklist" during practice is to make sure I'm keeping my elbow at 12:30
When that elbow is at 12:30 (for LH shooters) I find I can put just enough bend in the arm that it isn't "locked" out...and my shooting improves.
^^^I'm no coach, and no expert, but that's what I do and it's worth a try.
Good Luck
Interesting points everyone - thanks for all the input, I am very optimistic. I guess what I have gotten hung up on - that really steered me towards the longer draw (and perhaps straight elbow, I'll definitely try bending it) is that I could get all my "lines" to match up from overhead. If the top picture is not overdrawn, then I can definitely stick with these arrows - there is obviously enough room for a broadhead there!
Dave - what indicates I am overdrawn? I don't doubt it, it definitely feels like I hit a wall (though I can steady myself at that wall). If what you are saying is correct, there appears to be no reason for me to get new arrows.
For campbell and soil - with a bent elbow, do you find it difficult to shift weight onto your back and shoulders and bones? isn't that the whole point of a straight arm? correct me if i am mistaken
last question - if i am overdrawn in the 2nd picture but the lines up top match, how do I straighten the lines with the shorter draw? bend my elbow? (talking about terry's clock here)
I also have a 32" draw. The thing that catches my eye is your straight up stance. Like you've been watching Olymic archery :-)
If you'll bend at the waist, and cant your bow a little, it will shorten you up an inch or so and your arrows should be fine.
You can also open up your stance a little. Move your left foot back a few inches. This will shorten you up a little too.
Look at some of the videos posted under shooting forums. You'll see a natural bend and cant in most shooters.
A long draw is a curse when trying to find arrows but man you get all the power stroke out of every bow you shoot!
Looking at the photos of your 66" bow; it looks like it has short limbs, but a long riser and at your height, the limbs look like they're too short for you. The bow really has the looks of a target bow since the riser on your bow looks like it's either 21" or 23". If you're more comfortable with the long draw length, then stick with it. Let me give you some ideas since I also shoot a 66" recurve, but I'm only 5'9" tall. I've got real long arms for my height. My recurve is a Blacktail Elite TD bow. It's 66" long, 42#@30" draw length. The riser is 19" in length. It's strung with a Dyna 97 string instead of a dacron or flemish string. This means I need a stiffer arrow since there is less stretch in the Dyna string than in a Dacron string. I prefer to shoot a 150 grain Wensel Woodsman broadhead for my point. I also prefer a more comfortable draw like in your second photo, but I anchor in the corner of my mouth and I shoot with a tab, not a glove. I cant my bow to the one o'clock position. My favorite arrow was an Easton aluminum 2115 measured and cut, from the bottom of the nock valley, to 31" in length. The arrows were all fletched with three, 5" parabolic feathers with an eleven degree twist. All was good until this year when Easton discontinued my favorite 2115 shaft. So, instead of going on E-bay and finding some 2115's, I decided to go longer in length since the Dyna string allows me to where Dacron would give me problems. I noticed Easton still makes a 2215 shaft size. Armed with that knowledge, I went to my local Gander Mountain store, since GM allows me to buy one arrow or shaft at a time and picked up one 2213, one 2215 and one 2117 shafts. They are all cut to 32" long and fletched like my old 31" arrows. This afternoon, I'm going to an archery pro shop where I live and I'm hoping one or all three of these arrows fly like darts. I'm really hoping the 2215 is the one that performs the best since it weighs 550 grains which is a heavy arrow for a 42# bow and the grain per pound comes out to 13. The 2213 weighs close to 525 grains and the 2117 weighs 585 grains. All these arrows were uncut 34" shafts when I bought them so if you go with aluminum shafting, in the higher draw weights, you will be able to get at least 33" or 34" shafting to accommodate your more comfortable draw length.
I have the same dilema and have to shoot 34" shafts for the point to clear my bowhand or prevent cutting myself with a broadhead. I also shoot a ben pearson 40#@28 and the best bare shaft tuning was with a 400 spine (2117) arrow full length with a 250 grain point, also obtained 20% foc with that setup. I envy you cause I have been looking for a 66" Ben Pearson, let me know if ever want to sell it. Good luck and enjoy this fabulous sport!
Your overhead pics show your stance is, uh, beyond closed. Your feet need to be square to the target, or as Biggie recommended, your rear foot needs to be ahead of your front foot. Your pics show the opposite. That screws with the alignment of everything and leads to overdrawing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/fliksr/Random/Alignment3.jpg)
Stand square to your taret and see where you are with your draw length.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dave521:
from what I can see in the second picture you are severely over drawing your bow.
I'm an amateur shooter at best and don't have a discerning eye. Other than the bow hand and the arrows tips both pictures look very similar to me. What are the indications that he's over drawing? Please show me the way! :confused:
I'm with McDave and Biggie on this one. Though my draw is much shorter (27"), I find I shoot much more accurately with a slightly bend bow arm, a more open stance and a 'relaxed' (less erect) style. I also think that type of shooting form is a much more 'adaptable' posture for the huge variety of shots taken one often has to take under hunting conditions.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
One small point that is slightly off the subject, but in your second picture your bow fingers are extended. It is not a good idea to do that unless you're using a bow sling, because when you shoot the bow, you will reflexively clinch your fingers around the handle of the bow to keep from dropping it. Except that you will anticipate the shot, and clinch them just in time to ruin your shot. Better to hold the bow lightly with your fingers wrapped around the handle, as in the first picture, so there is no change in your grip pressure when you release. Or just hold the bow with your forefinger and thumb wrapped around the handle, and let the other fingers drift off to the side.
Good points everyone. I have a serious check list to work with before I make any changes. I will try to take some pictures from the side today and front today with these alterations:
Open stance
Canter at waste
Bend forearm
close grip (both to avoid broadhead and hold bow)
HOPEfully these things will alleviate the arrow length issue, perhaps I don't even have one! I still don't know about clearing a broadhead and my fingers though. Other than the laundry list of problems, I am glad my form is not a train wreck. Wait will I get a video ... laugh
Don't take all of this advise to the letter. You will eventually develope a style that is comfortable and works for you. It may be different from everybody else but THAT"S OK!
All in all.....bowhunting is very personal in nature :-)
So what is the right stance? I had an experienced archer come up to me a couple of years ago and say I needed to open up my stance. Much later another experienced good shot said close it. Is there a consensus that the front foot should be behind the rear foot? I looked on an Olympic site and the had all three and they called them by different names. www.library.thinkquest.org (http://www.library.thinkquest.org) open, closed, oblique etc.
I will also say that ya may want to tilt the head into the shot a tad bit, kind of lean into it. I think you will be fine. I also anchor with my index at my nose and my ring finger at the corner of my mouth, this will give ya a half inch. I think ith a 32" arrow you should be good to go. Shawn
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
Don't take all of this advise to the letter. You will eventually develope a style that is comfortable and works for you. It may be different from everybody else but THAT"S OK!
All in all.....bowhunting is very personal in nature :-)
I admit my generation is often guilty of seeking advice / being told how to do something rather than figuring it out on their own. I may be victim of that trap right here. But I basically wanted to first, get an arrow that fit, and second, make sure I did not start off with any bad habits. Wise words for sure - thank you
Follow up question - spine
In the market for gamegetters only, 2016 32" or 2117 33". Bow again is 40@28, draw between 31-32". Not sure what I am actually pulling, I imagine around 55#. Am I under-spined at 2016 with 145 tip?
I think you'd be way underspined with a 2016 and a 145 grain tip with either a 32" or 33" length arrow pulling 55#s. With a 33" length arrow at 55#s, with a gamegetter, a 2117 (400) or a 2216 (380) would be my two choices. Of the two, I think the 2216 (380) would be the best choice, but this is just my opinion with the parameters of poundage and tip weight you gave.
I agree with Night Wing, in general. However, the only way you're going to know is to do bare shaft testing, particularly since you're outside the norms of what most of us are used to in draw length, and our previous experiences might not apply. Once you learn to bare shaft test, you will always want to do it whenever you try a new bow or arrow combination, because it is a beautiful thing to have an arrow that flies right.
I draw 31" so I just make it but do what Biggie said...a little bend at the waist and cant the bow a bit and you;ll be Ok. I tried the bent bow arm thing and I had difficulty with consistency...good luck
The problem I see is your alignment.
Stance should not matter if you are properly aligned. That's why I preach proper alignment so hard, and its all from the waist up. If you are properly aligned, it really shouldn't matter if your front foot is forward or back as again, its all controled from the waist up. You can carry your alignement with you whether you shoot up hill, down hill, rotate left or right, bend at the waist forward or even reverse cant.
Being properly aligned IMO is PARAMOUNT for the bowhunter who doesn't always get that back yard stance, and has to creat and manufacture shots in the field. No telling where your feet will be, and sometimes you might not even be on your feet.
If you look at your 1st pic, you will see if you 'carried out' the shoulder line, it would be pointing too far to the right. Its pointing too much directly toward the target than just perpendicular. You have 'closed' your shoulder alignment. This closed shoulder will make your draw length longer than is should be.
If you start with your feet paralell and perpendicular to the target, this will naturally get your shouldlers perpendicular...so yes, when learning, get your stance right so your shoulders are right. Once you learn to address the target and gain confidence with your ideal 'back yard' shot, then you can push yourself to learn to shoot from other positions by controling that aligment from the waist up, and everything below the waist really wont matter.
The elbow bend is purely personal. Mine is locked solid, and I like it that way, but I have a natural bend in my arm as well and it wont staighten out all the way like some. Other's like a bent elbow, so find out which one works best for you.
My draw length is 27.5 to 28 depening on the bow, so I aint much help on the long arrow issue.
Best of luck to ya young man. :thumbsup:
I shoot with a straight elbow and any bend will severely affect my arrow flight. Why ? is straight better than bent ? For me, yes for the same reasons you referred to above. Bbt its not for everyone. A straight elbow will give you a slightly longer draw versus a bent elbow which will affect the spine strength of the arrow. Don't get caught up in your arrow length first and try to then adjust your draw length or style to that arrow length. Find your form and shooting style (either bent elbow or not) and then adjust your arrow spine and length accordingly. I shoot longer arrows 31 with a shockingly long draw length of 27 1/2 so I'm envious of your situation but longer shafts give a lot more room for the BH and spine adjustment if you want to tinker with your weight or spine.
Good luck. Hopefully that helps. Bhill
Thanks so much Terry, I see exactly what you mean with the "closed" shoulder point too far right, I completely missed that before. I see how that overextends the draw too.
I totally agree on the whole alignment ballgame :) My father is a pro tennis instructor and I play at the college level. He teaches / I use a belief that the same stroke ought to be used from the waste up regardless of ball height - get your feet in position independent of the swing. Much more consistent that way!
I am going back to lurkerdome now. I'll see about resurrecting this thread in a month or two. Shoot on my brethren, I admire every one of you.