Hi all,
Im going up in draw weight...just cause I think I can handle it and I like the idea of flatter trajectory, better penetration etc.
My question is, where is the point of diminishing returns...or is there even one? I mean is there a significant difference between a 70#, 75# and 80# bow assuming the same gr/lb, or do the gains start becoming less and less?
I realize there are a lot of variables, like bow design etc but I was hoping for some thoughts and generalizations.
Thanks!
I think the diminishing returns start at about 65#.
I read somewhere that a 57lb bow is the top of the curve in terms of marginal gain per pound of weight pulled. A lot of variables of bow efficency, etc, though-
Orion is right on with what I've been told.
I'v a 65,67,69 longbows and I can definately tell the differce- all the same except for the woods.The 69# out penetrates them all in my deer target.
Orion hit it on the head, as far as I understand it.
I shoot selfbows. So I go higher in draw weight to compensate for the lack of fibreglass.
I feel that the 90+ # bow definately shoots harder than the little ones (<65#s) I have been shooting heavy bows so long that the light ones seem, well, Light.
I have good accuracy, good penetration and I like the feel.
The bow design,that you mentioned, is key though. Modern fibreglass bows are probably all pretty efficient. All wood bows vary by maker, wood, design and even climate.
So if staying with a fiberglass bow I think 65 to 75 is a good range.
All wood, then 75 to 95 and really try them out using a Chronograph and similar arrows.
BigArcher
My heavy recurves are...bw sb 80#.silvertip 77#.brack quest 72#.blacktail elite 72#.bill stewart 73#.super diablo 70#bw ma11 72#..all at 28".....honestly not a lot of difference to draw and trajectory dead flat to 50 yards (2315 xx 75s)...what is noticeable to me though is that when i drop to 65# and less they are really easy to draw...with the higher poundage i dont feel comfortable shooting carbons...just my thoughts...regards jon
blacktail elite is 69#
I shoot bows from 66 thru 74 lbs. and I try to shoot the same arrows from each. So far this season I've killed one deer with a 72# recurve and the results were really what I'd expect with any of my bows from the lowest thru highest poundage. I thin my most efficient bow effort/ result wise, is my 68# takedown. I would probably agree with Orion that there is a far greater noticeable difference between a 55# bow and a 65 # model than I've seen between 65# and 75# bows.Its also correct in my experience that each bow is unique so one size really doesn't fit all. None of this is as important as hitting what I'm shooting at. Grant
Mark, I built up to the heavy bows just by shooting progressively heavier bows. One important thing, I think, is to also do some shooting with your non-dominant side; or at least draw-and-hold exercises with it. It's important to strengthen the shoulders on both sides.
I also found it very difficult to make more than a 10 pound draw-weight jump at a time. Go methodically. Learn to truly handle the bow at each weight level as you go up in weight. But always keep in mind that you can never learn to truly handle a 90 pound bow by shooting an 85# bow; no matter how much you shoot it.
As you start moving up, at each practice session shoot the heavy bow you've now mastered then, towards the end of your practice session shoot the heavier bow you're trying to work up to until the muscles get tired, then go back and shoot the lighter bow a bit more (and you'll be amazed how light it's draw now feels). Finish off each session by drawing the heavier bow and holding at full draw as long as you can and then try to get an aimed (relatively close range) shot off with it. Repeat that heavy-bow draw/hold/shoot sequence several times, up until it's really hard to draw the bow again. I eventually worked up to being able to hold the 120# bow at full draw for a times 30 seconds and then be able to take a well-aimed shot at virtually any range (within my accuracy level).
Once you're heavier bow fees easy for your to use with accuracy and control it is time to make it your 'light bow' and move up to a new 'heavy bow'.
That system worked for me, and it was surprising to me how rapidly I was able to go from being comfortable and accurate with 70# to being comfortable and accurate with 120# of draw weight - about six months.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
I mirror Ed Ashby! Hard to learn to shoot a 90# bow by only going to a 70# bow. Sure you can hit with the heavier bow but not very often. I started out shooting my first traditional bow that was 70# and then went to 74# and then to 85# and then on to a 94# Hill that is my primary bow today.
I am not a long range shooter and must admit no matter what weight bow I shoot 20 yards is pretty much my max.
justin
I had to take 4 advil just reading this thread :notworthy:
I think Gary Sentman talked about in an old video he felt 58# to 63# was a point after that when you would start to see diminshing returns.My heaviest bow is my Bamboo Longhunter 83# and a 75# HH,I did have a 95# Bighorn longbow.I prefer to shoot 60-68# longbows.I like to shoot heavy arrows from my heavier bows,so they don't really shoot flatter then my lighter bows but do penetrate deeper.
There is no such thing as a general rule for "diminishing returns", I have heard for years many times people asking for the point of "dimishing returns" for WHAT? If you are talking about whitetail deer, then yes obviously, if you are shooting completely through the biggest deer every time, then to go heavier would be the point of dimishing returns, say for the purpose of this discussion that point is 60#'s, now you decide to hunt buffalo, or hippo or elephant, 60#'s is no where near the point of diminishing returns now is it? When you get to hunting elephant and shoot all the way through every one, then you have hit the point of diminishing returns again. As far as the bow and arrows go, there is no point of diminishing returns, you will get to a point however when coming up with good arrows for a particular bow, may be so much trouble, that it becomes a point of diminishing returns.
The diminishing returns are that you need to make the limb heavier to get the weight and thus start to slow down the bow overall. Shoot an 80# bow at 10gpp and a 60 at 10gpp and see what the chrono tells you. I am talking efficiency a far as diminishing returns. You'll still get more momentum out of the 90 over the 60 just not the same increase you'd get from a 60 0ver a 40.
I've owned several bows up to around 80# in the past. Some of them have performed very well and some have been dissapointing. For example, I've owned a couple of bows from the same maker that were about 15 lbs different (one 58#, one 73#). With the same string and arrows they were only about 8 fps different. So, in that case, the gains in performance vs. draw weight weren't very good.
I agree that when evaluating heavy bows a chrono is needed. The design of a bow can make a big difference in the overall performance. Just because a bow is heavy doesn't mean it will yield more energy than a lighter bow.
Thanks for the replies, there's a lot of great advice been given!
Im going to try work up to 70# and then see what happens from there.
Dr Ashby...120#'s, now thats heavy weight! I'd imagine you had quite a time finding arrows for that bow? Out of curiosity what bow are you using most now, and what are the specs, if you dont mind me asking?
Thanks again!
The advantage of a heavier bow is not to shoot an arrow of the same weight faster, its to shoot a heavier arrow at the same speed.
I'm with Rick, what are "diminshing returns"? Stiffness of a limb increases by the cube of it's thickness so the limbs get "lighter" per pound of draw weight as the draw weight goes up. A 100 pound bow is way less then twice as thick as a 50# of the same design.
Add to that string mass becomes less percentage wise per pound also. So...Heavier bows "should" be more efficent.
What does happen if not designed into the bow is riser flex which kills energy storage. This is measurable on 40# bows with machined risers so you can imagine it's impact on heavy bows with wood risers. But all else being equal a 40# bow at whatever gpp will shoot the same speed as an 80 with the same gpp....O.L.
By diminishing returns I was meaning efficiency, and I agree with Rick and O.L. that the benefit of increasing draw weight is to increase your gr/lb while keeping roughly the same speed compared to lower poundage bows at the same gr/lb.
But i guess the flip side is you could drop the gr/lb say from 11 to 10, gain some speed, flatten the trajectory and still have a relatively heavy arrow.
Interesting stuff.
The "dimenishing return" thing was created by people who can't or choose not to shoot heavier equipment. I agree with Dr. Ashby in the way he built up to his bows. You don't need to be built like Denny Sturgis to shoot heavy equipment and for me I like having the extra umph if the shot strays from where I'm looking. Now there are physical limits to a degree for everbody and it doesn't take much change in weight when your at or close to your limit. My play bow is 70# and I can shoot it all day. My hunting bows are 80# and I shoot 3D with them with no problems if I jump to 85# I get ate for lunch.
Good points Rick. To tell the truth, I never really think about this stuff until it comes up in conversation or on a post. For better or worse, my background is of the "shoot the most bow you can shoot well or feel you can handle) philosophy, so I do. I also can identify with the arrow tuning component of your first post. Unfortunately if I get much beyond 75 lbs. I don't really shoot well enough to determine if its me or the arrow that causes the flight issues. I have to figue its me, lol. I also agree that increasing bow weight necessitates shooting progressively heavier bows until the shooter's "comfort zone" is enlarged. I probably subconsciously factored myself into the equation.Good commonsense post. Grant
Mark, most of my hunting today is done with one of my three 82#@27" longbows, but I still do draw exercises with my 85#, 90# and 100# bows, and still shoot the 85# and 90# ones frequently.
Nowadays, it's about all I can do to manage the 100# big-five for a few shots. Most of the heavier bows are still there, and I don't doubt that I could still work right back up to them in a few short months. However, with the advances in terminal performance shown with the EFOC arrows, what I'm now getting from my 82# longbow exceeds the terminal performance I once achieved with the 100#+ bows and normal/high FOC arrows - at least on game to buffalo-size.
From time to time the thought crosses my mind; and EFOC arrow setup from one of the truly heavy longbows. Ah, if only I were a bit younger, and Africa was still what it was back when I WAS younger ... :archer:
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
I should have clarified earlier that one of the biggest reasons for shooting a heavier bow is to cast a heavier arrow at a similar speed to an equivilant lighter setup. But, my point was that increasing draw weight in a different design may not yield any difference in performance.
For example, if you currently shoot a relatively high performance recurve switching to a heavier mild d/r longbow might not give you any tangible increase performance. It might even give you less.
I remember reading something about from Paul Brunner once. He was talking about an upcoming hunt and mentioned his setup. He said after chrono testing his 2 bows he was going to hunt with one that was lighter (by 8-10 lbs, I think) because the heavier one didn't yield any more energy.
All I'm saying is that if you're going to go up in weight make sure that you get a positive change from it. No sense in pulling more weight and getting less in return.
Str8, "For example, if you currently shoot a relatively high performance recurve switching to a heavier mild d/r longbow might not give you any tangible increase performance. It might even give you less."
Very true, more is not automaticly MORE, and it seems the differences in bows beyond 65# is greater then it is below....O.L.
Chris, you and O.L. are spot on. There are certain reasons why I prefer a straight-end longbow for hunting, and those have nothing to do with bow efficiency. I do have to use more bow force with them to get the terminal arrow performance I want.
That said, I can tell you from my side by side testing that the average velocity for a ten shot string with one of O.L.'s ACS-CX bows, pulling 64# at my 27" draw, EXACTLY equaled the velocity of the 82#@27" straight-end longbow I've used as the 'baseline' for the buffalo testing - using the exact same arrows. And I tested that across a range of arrow weights from 780 grains to just shy of 1000 grains. When tested on buffalo, the arrows from the ACS-CX performed exactly the same as they did from the 82# straight-end longbow.
As for tuning, I was able to get the ACS-CX to tune to the exact same arrow setups I use for the 82# longbow by by building the arrow plate out. That was done before chronographing the velocities.
I figure that it won't be too many more years before age catches up with me, and I'll have to drop down in bow weight. It sure is nice to know that there are bows out there that will allow me to do that without giving up the performance I've gotten with my beloved straight-end longbows.
When it comes to choosing between the bow design I love to hunt with and the performance I want from my arrows; terminal arrow performance will win. The animal will never know what bow the arrow came from, but I don't doubt that I'll miss using my favorite style of hunting bow; sort of like a fly fisherman forced to use a spin-caster for trout.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
Doc, you had me until you went from Fly rod to spin-caster (that's to big of a jump for me)LOL
How about Bamboo Fly Rod to Graphite Fly Rod, you're still shooting a Longbow.
Okay David, you got me. From a hexagonal split bamboo fly rod to a carbon-fiber fly rod IS a much better comparison. :clapper:
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
every day bows are 65# & 67# throwing 700 to 800 gr arrows - nice performance - shotts flat I guess - through hay bails into the second set ------- my heavy bow is 85# ----- don't know anything about trajectory - they all seem about the same - but the heavy bow - at roughly 20 more #'s blows through 2 sets of hay bails and bounces off my shed with a loud thump at 30 yards!!!!!!!!! - well worth the extra weight - and the extra weight throws arrows 1050 grains.
I do like to shoot 10 or 20 arrows with a 70# bow before getting into the 85# - easy!
<>< <--------------------<<<<<<<<
Doc, I'll make you some split bamboo buffalo arrows while you are here. You want weight, spine, and small diameter that's the ticket! Ultra hi FOC while we're at it. :) ....O.L.
Well, O.L., my intent IS to start testing Ultra-EFOC arrows on the next go around! :bigsmyl:
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
OK, for us slow guys, what would be the optimum performance for a given bow & arrow weight.
Lets say:
50lbs.
60lbs.
70lbs.
Where do I get the best performance, lets use a curve between flat trajectory and penetration.
I all ready know light is flatter and higher speed, but less penetration, I also know heavy weight is slower (drops quicker) and penetrates deeper.
Where is the balance, or where is the optimum performance (like what you said Doc.) about shooting a 64lb bow with the same performance as an 82lb'er. that's 18 more pounds of force for no return.
I hope you or O.L. can give some light on this.
David, I think O.L. will have to carry the bulk of that answer, Re: the bows. All I can contribute is that the heavy bone threshold is very real and very persistent, at something very near 650 grains of arrow mass; and that all testing so far indicates that arrow FOC has either very, very little or no effect whatsoever on it.
Once through bone arrow FOC becomes a huge penetration factor. I'll have to qualify the following remarks though. They apply only when the best performing broadheads, having single-bevels and high mechanical advantage are used. In essence; for arrows that take every available chance to maximize the use of whatever force they carry, in all regards excepting their amount of FOC.
I'm just now scraping the surface of Ultra-EFOC, but everything so far SUGGEST that there's no upper limit to FOC's soft-tissue(s) penetration benefits. The higher you push the arrow's FOC, the greater boost in penetration it shows - once the bone is breached. In the long run, this MIGHT just mean that, at trad bow velocities, any arrow with a mass above the heavy bone threshold COULD represent thorax-traversing penetration, even on game as large as buffalo, IF the FOC is sufficiently high. I should (I hope) know much more about this whenever I can get through another round of testing.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000366
My goal isn't to hijack so if people want to respond by PM that's fine. These question do come alongside the topics of heavy bows.
Has anyone done comparisons on the "efficiency" of popular bow designs? Kind of what Kingwouldbe asked. I know LeTub posted a thread not too long ago comparing 4 or 5 bows.
EFOC...I've been looking into this while trying to get a rough guess what I'll buy for my first setup. EFOC just makes sense to my mind so I'd like to go as high as possible before they start dropping like rocks. You can only "weaken" the spine by building the pad out. Are there tricks to strengthen it for using heavier heads. I know both of these can be considered "bandaid" fixes but it should would make experimenting with different FOC a LOT cheaper. (Of course, it would probably be smarter to wait until Dr. Ashby tells us the findings of his experimenting...but I know myself better than that.)
Doc. I always appreciate your expertise, I'm one of those "show me" guys before I give it any consideration.
You proved things I was doing and didn't know why, I just stumbled on to most of it.
Thanks.
Please for give me Matabele for hi jacking your thread ( but we are learning some things )
Been shooting 100# plus bows for the last 11 years. Heard that 65 after dimish return like doc said you need more weight to hunt huge game. Marlon
King, no need to aplogise at all. As you say we are all learning stuff here from throwing ideas around.
There's some great info in this thread, thanks for the replies!
I'm going to get blasted here but that's ok...
Just an observation for those who push the limit.
Eventually you will (might) suffer for pushing the limits of your strength.. But I'm not about to say not to enjoy your pursuits, beware that you may have problems in the future.
I was never a "big" guy but did weigh in at over 200 when in my 20's and 30's and fairly strong for my size.. I shot big bows and felt good while doing it.. Now, 30 years later, I'm having all kinds of joint and connective tissue problems and consider myself dam lucky to be able to shoot in the mid 40's. And I can only do that on a limited basis.. I realize that some of my issues may be genetic, perhaps not..
Enough, enjoy !
I believe that you can shoot the weight you want for nearly as long as you want if you continually work at it. I'm sure my body will hit "diminishing returns" quicker than the bow will. I'm 54, 5' 8" 150# and have been shooting in the 80 # range for mu entire career. My son is 30 , 135# soaking weight and loves his HH 80# @ 27" bow. You just need to shoot the stuff to be able to do it. Currently, I don't have as many aches and pains as most guys who don't hunt.
I noticed that as I get older ALL the joints in my body hurt at one time or another or all the time, feet, ankles, knees, back, fingers(both hands) wrists, elbows etc.. I could blame some of those on over 50 years of shooting heavy bows, but I never have shot a bow with most of them parts, so I guess I will just chaulk it up to living my life. I guess I could have just spent my life sitting on the couch and watching TV and then I would live forever, pain free, right?