Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: emusmacker on September 12, 2008, 05:20:00 PM
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I know there are some trad gangers that are thinking I'm stupid and ignorant for asking is 40#'s heavy enough for deer. and let me start by saying that I do not know the history of trad archery and I'm an ex compound shooter. I don't understand why people are so sensitive about that question, I know there are many who have killed deer with 40# weight, and I plan on hunting with that weight, but only until I get my 52# built. Just wanted some info from other trad gangers.
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I've killed a lot of whitetails with 40# bows. That's all I used for years when I was younger.
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i personally know of several deer that were killed with much less. 40# is plenty
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Let us know while your eating Backstrap... :saywhat: :wavey: :thumbsup:
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There are many who have killed whitetails with that weight...and less.
There are many people who have bounced arrows off deer with that weight also.
Everything must be perfect- arrow flight, sharp and I mean sharp broadhead, and a close shot on a calm deer.
No one thinks you are stupid and ignorant. Im not certain I understand why you are asking, though, because you have told us you've already decided you are going to hunt with it regardless.
Whatever we say will either make us look like heroes- if we call it right and you kill the deer quickly and cleanly- or we look like chumps to you or are your mental scapegoats, or worse, as you tell yourself it was OUR fault because we said it was OK and the deer didnt die quickly and cleanly.
If you are looking for a clear conscience I dont think you will find it because some will be all for it and others will say no.
Its all about respecting the animal, and whether you can get the job done or not, are disciplined enough to wait for the perfect opportunity, know how to really sharpen a broadhead well, and know where to place that arrow. Then you will need good blood trailing skills or help if the deer doesnt fall in sight.
ONLY YOU CAN KNOW THOSE THINGS not those of us who do not know you from Adam's housecat.
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I hunted with this young man (Cody) this last weekend he used a #40 Baer bow his Grandpa gave him,
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/wtpops/ShilohHunt008.jpg)
Shot placment:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/wtpops/ShilohHunt010.jpg)
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There was a guy who killed a elk with a 48# self bow and a Snuffer. The shot was 4 yards but still.
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Looks like that woodsman did not bounce off that hog. ;)
40lbs is just like shooting 60lbs.You need to be able to make a good shot with either.Do that and they both will work just fine.Don't do it and you are counting on luck with whatever weight you are shooting.. :D
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Ray has got it, keep the shot 15 yards and under and put it 3"s behind the shoulder amd dead deer. Put it 6"s in front of the last shot I mentioned and ya may find it, but ya may not. 2 seasons ago I had a real bad shoulder. I shot a 42# at my draw Widow. 29" arrow with 125 grain Snuffer, total weight 375 grains. I killed two does and coyote with the set-up. One was a fawn at 4 yards through the shoulder blade and the tip of the snuffer just poked out the off side, but remember it was a 5 month old deer. The second was big doe(130#s dressed)she was at 12 yards I hit her a bit back but she was quartering slightly away, the head stuck in the off shoulder blade. She went 40 yards. The coyote was a big female(42#s or so) she was 25 yards and was almost dead away. I hit her in the left ham and it exited just behind the off shoulder with about 6"s sticking out, she whirled and bit it off and was off, she made it about 70 yards and left very little blood. I believe it will do, but if ya can shoot more weight it would not hurt. Shawn
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I took a 120# doe this week, wed. morning at 22 yds, quartering away with a 1976 BW1226, #46@28. Hit her between fouth and fifth rig from back, through a rib on off side, busted a hole in the shoulder blade, double lung. Ran 45 yds and piled up,didnt get out ofsigh! I was using aVapor 4000, 29", 150 wensel woodsman, total weight 425grns. I have also shot 100+ shots, at lest 3-5 days a week since spring, with several different bows, and this also was my 53rd deer with a bow, confidence helps. Make sure you can put it where you look, quartering away preferably, the heavier the shaft/head combo the better. Hope this helps. Sam.
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#45 is all i ever use just have real sharp 2 bladed heads and shot placement and ya should be eating back straps :archer:
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There isn't a game animal in north America that hasn't fallen to a 40# bow. In Alaska 40# is legal for sitka black tail deer, caribou, black bear and dall sheep. 50# is required for moose, brown bear, bison and mountain goat. I've seen photos of wood shafted arrows with stone points that passed through a white tail shot by a 30# self bow.
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What Ray said...you've already made up your mind...why the question?
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Are you pulling the full 40#'s or a tad more. I bought a Redwing hunter that is 40# @ 28" the man I bought it from, told me that he had taken several deer with it over the years, I had no reason not to believe him. If you choose to use a 40# bow for deer you will would want them close and quartering away for sure. Be sure to keep us up to date.
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If it is legal in your area, and your setup in tuned in go for it. As most of said already your shot needs to be a good one but that is just not with a 40# bow it is with any bow.
I have been using a 45@26 recurve for the last couple of years and have killed many deer, hogs, and small game with it. I personally keep my shots to 20 yards out of the treestand and 25 on the ground. I have yet not recovered an animal "knock on wood".
From reading your post you seem to have already made up your mind so go out and have fun this season.
CS
This topic has been highly debated on here everytime it comes up and I agree with the statement shoot the most bow you can but in saying that if 40# is it for you and legal go for it.
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I am sorry but I have never heard of a 40# bow bouncing off of a deer. Maybe using a blunt, heck even a field point will penetrate soft tissue. If you have arrows that are tuned properly 8-10 grains per pound, a sharp broadhead and good shot placement 40# is more than enough for deer.
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Learn to shoot the forty well. Spend the money you earmarked for the 52# on arrows. Go fling and enjoy a wonderful life. :D
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As long as 40# meets your state minimum then heck yeah! If not, then no way!
:)
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Scott,
Then you haven't been around other hunters a lot. I have 50 guys hunting suburban deer with compounds in a group I started, and have been bowhunting with young people a lot during my time.
There's been many shots bounced off shoulder blades, ribs, and sundry other hard spots on deer, and there will be more in the future as long as folks don't take perfect shots.
Shooting the legal limit may be inviting, but me, I prepare for the worst possible outcome in my setup, then shoot to make the most perfect shots I can.
If you only prepare your setup for perfect shots, well, you'll find out I guess.
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No offense Ray but I don't know you and for you to assume that I haven't been around other hunters alot is condensending, even a 50# or higher bow shot into a shoulder blade aint gonna be good. A bad shot is still a bad shot regardless of the weight of the bow.
I hit a small deer sqaure in the shoulder blade and watch her leave with my arrow 3 years ago. I was using a razor sharp grizzly and a 50# Martin Dreamcatcher. I ended up finding the arrow(the grizzly was actually twisted) about 75 yards away. I only got about one and a quarter inch of penetration. And yes I have learned to wait on the perfect shot. That is a part of the maturation process.
If I just wanted to take any shot at a deer and not wait for the perfect shot I would use a rifle and blow through the shoulder blades.
Most compound shooters I know use the lightest fastest arrow they can along with mechanical broadheads, so compounds and Trad bows imho cannot be compared. I have also learned that a heavier arrow will out penetrate a lighter arrow.
My best friend shoots wheels and he, his brother and a group of our friends went to Illinois last year and it is sad to say they came home with sad stories, I attribute to bad hits, light arrows and mechanical broadheads.
As a side note that little deer did fully recover I have pics of her on my trail cams every year since and have even had shot opporutinies on her but she gets a free pass. She is easily recognized by the 4 inch scar she carries.
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Scott,
you are sort of making my point for me, aren't you?
If a 50 lb bow makes a bad hit worse, whats a 40 lber going to do?
My aim here is to explain that bad hits happen to everyone...our goal should NOT be to see how little weight we can shoot when we make perfect hits- rather its to shoot as MUCH weight as we can shoot well, for the sake of the game when we don't.
If I hit a whitetail in the shoulder blade I have complete confidence I am going to break it, and drive through to make the kill. A rib? Same thing. I broke a caribou rib (I hit it exactly where I was aiming of all things, but it was square on a rib bone) it broke the rib in two and cut two ribs on the exit side.
Had I been shooting a 40 lb bow, I doubt that would have been as sweet an outcome.
Anecdotal evidence is a bad route to go in justifying anything- example- "I hunted with a woman in Wyoming who shot 4 mule deer over 200 inches with a 39 lb bow- and she made no bad hits." "I hunted with a guy in Africa who shot a 41 lb compound and he killed 7 animals and no wounds"
Fifty people, hunting for 8 years in one area, hunting one species, on the other hand, makes for some compelling evidence.
I am running a fair chase hog hunting operation and I've had the opportunity to watch a good many people shoot at game there when they were just invited guests and also now as pay hunters.
I'm just going to say that bad things happen to good, well-intentioned people and leave it at that.
I was NOT trying to be condescending, but YOU DID BEGIN YOUR POST BY IMPLYING YOU DOUBTED MY STATEMENT ABOUT ARROWS BOUNCING OFF DEER WITH 40 LB BOWS, DIDN'T YOU?
The difficulty with threads like this is that there are 100 people lurking on this post who will never say anything, but take our implied acceptance of this setup as proof they should also shoot one similar to it- I'm not going to change MY mind that our goal should be to insure people shoot as much as they can shoot effectively- and not figure out how LITTLE weight they can get away with.
We likely won't change one another's minds...and that's OK..I just want it on the record what MY experience is...and those lurkers to hear my notions...they may do with the information whatever they wish.
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I've seen people that shot 50# bows that were barely getting 40# at their draw. There's a big difference also in 40#@28" and 40#@24", in real performance.
That said; I get a lot of pictures sent to me of deer and boar killed with 35# and 40# bows. Just use a heavy enough arrow, a razor sharp 2 blade broadhead, and shoot close and accurate.
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thanks for the info folks, the reason i asked the question about being stupid is i saw the same question on another bowsite and that guy got called everything but stupid, and i know that many trad shooters frown on those questioning penetration, and bow weight but personally i feel like more weight is better to an extent.
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Ray, we can agree to disagree.
emusmacker to answer your question. In my opinion 40 lbs is more than adequate to kill a deer with. Razor sharp broadheads, tuned arrows and make a good shot and you will have backstraps for dinner :thumbsup:
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In some states 35lbs is legal.....40lbs is enough for deer. Doesn't matter what weight you shoot....your broadheard should be razor sharp and your arrows should fly true...in short,your gear must be properly tuned. I always find it funny to read how it's ok to hunt with 40 lbs but everything else (arrows, BH's) needs to be perfect or close to that. Everything should be as close to perfect as you can get it regardless of the weight you shoot. You can shoot 60lbs....if your arrows corkscrew and impact sideways you're in trouble. Shoot 70 lbs if you want but if you hit it in the foot, you were better of with 40lbs....
Good Luck
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Ray and Scott you both make great points and in the end I think you believe the same things. The question asked is will a 40lb recurve kill a deer and the simple answer is yes. Will a 65lb bow kill a deer deader (is that a word), no. Will a 65lb bow go through a shoulder blade? Yes more often than not, will a 40lb? In some areas of the blade it will, most areas it won't depending on the size of the deer. Will an arrow bounce off a deer, well thats really a yes and no answer. The arrow will not bouce off like you were shooting a metal deer, it will break skin and come out if hit directly on the big part of the shoulder bone. That happend to my Dad with a 50lb Recurve shooting a 500 grain arrow with a 3 blade head. If he had been shooting a 2 blade, who knows. This happened last year in IL, that deer was killed the opening day of shot gun season and my dad had hit the shoulder square.
Is a higher poundage bow better, well yes as a general rule. But a gut shot is a gut shot whether its with a 40 or 60lb bow. Same goes for a hind quarter shot, neck shot, spine shot etc. More poundage comes into play most with dealing with shoulder blades.
There are a lot of deer killed every year in every state with a .22 but I doubt many people tote those during general firearms even if it were a legal round. Heck I know a guy that killed an elk with a .22 magnum, but that is another story and I had NOTHING to do with it.
Yes 40lb is enough, will there be a day when you wished you were shooting more poundage, probably. But have fun and hunt.
Scott
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I read in one of Fred Bears books that his 70 yr old father killed a doe with a recurve pulling 30#. 40# should be plenty.
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Originally posted by James Wrenn:
[QB] Looks like that woodsman did not bounce off that hog. ;)
Not tryin to be a 'know it all' or just a plain old jerk but I believe the broadhead in the hog picture is an MA 3 made by Del-Mar. 3 Rivers is the only place I've found that sells them.
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Dozer, I caught the MA3 too. I have an old arrow from the 40's with that head on it.
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Yeah I looked back and see you guys are right about the head.Either way it worked very well because a good shot was made on the hog.
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I'm always amused that we get a dozen or so, "I know a guy who" posts on these light bow threads but never get the untold hundreds of anticdotes on the bad results from them :-)
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I got an "I know a guy" story. His name is Hoot Gibson and one of my trad heroes. he is the guy who handed me a recurve and got me to shootin these crazy bows. Anyways, his some killed a deer with a 30 something pound bow with an aluminum arrow (not sure which one) a good ways back. 40 pounds will work. My wife has a 40 pound longbow, maybe I'll see if I can get some arrows to fly out of it and try for myself this season.
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I have read all the posts and I agree with Ray and Biggies last post, but what happens when we all get older and can no longer handle the weights we are touting? I shot 80-90# bows for some years and settled on 60-70# bows for a lot of years, but due to some shoulder issues I shoot 52-57#s today. Should I stop hunting when I get real arthritic and can only shoot 40#s? No, I will just get closer and take real high percentage shots. The question asked is 40#s enough, the only real answer is YES!! The other stuff that is talked about is all speculation and up to the individual to know the bows limitations and make do with it. I myself have always had a problem with my shots being forward. My mind knows that shoulder is there to protect the goodies and that is where I want to be, I really want to stay off that shoulder but I do hit it quite often, I kill lots of deer with that hit even with 54#s but my bloodtrails are not great a lot of times. I try to stay off that shoulder but for some reason I hit it a 1/3rd. of the time it seems. I guess I am saying do the best ya can and try as hard as ya can to make that perfect shot but don't give up if all ya can handle is a 40# bow and it is legal to do so. Shawn
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Hopefully by then Shawn, we will have enough practical experience to only take the perfect shot.
40#'s is plenty enough to kill a deer but the other factors are just as meaningfull.
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A perfectly tuned arrow and a scary sharp 2 blade broadhead and you should be fine. I think you should shoot the most poundage you are comfortable with. There are a lot of guys shooting heavy bows that probably make bad shots due to the poundage that they are shooting. I dropped down to 44lbs this year and my shooting has never been better. SHOT PLACEMENT RULES SUPREME!!!! Maybe we should poll the deer and see if they would like to get shot with an 80lb bow or a 40lb bow. By the way, nice post Shawn.
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Good post Shawn !
I've been thru the cycle and now shoot a 43# longbow.If I didn't think (and know through experience) that it was enough , I wouldn't use it !!!!!!
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Shawn, good post.
On the other end of your logic train is my own current question... Should I let my daughter who is 13 bowhunt for deer this year with her 36# bow? After all, it's only 4# less than 40 pounds and is legal here in Missouri. She shoots it very well and I believe she would do fine. Very likely I will be right with her in the same tree or ground blind to whisper advice but how do I justify letting her hunt deer with a marginal draw weight bow? I have every confidence that properly placed, a heavy to very heavy arrow would do the job from her bow but it all comes down to confidence. I don't have complete confidence in my own shot making ability so how can I have it in hers?
Also, she currently LOVES to hunt and shot her first deer last fall with a rifle and also her first turkey the spring before and a couple squirrrels too. But.... she's getting to be a teenager and outside interests from other kids at school are gaining influence on her so I REALLY want try keeping her interested in hunting while I can before it becomes "uncool" (if it ever does). Hunting aint very cool with lots of kids these days. I have to walk a line between letting her participate while she is interested and making her wait until she is stronger but maybe not AS interested. If all goes well and she manages to make a clean kill I think she will be hooked for life but if I dont' let her go (and actually hunt, not just tag along), she may loose interest.
After typing this, I think I've made up my mind. I'll take her if she can show proficiency out 10 or 12 yards with a heavy arrow and broadheads and sit close to help her along and be a "bug in her ear". If she looses a deer to a bad hit, I'll treat it no differently than if I lost one shot with my 60+ pound bow. ALL effort will be made to recover any animal shot but the lesson must be learned at some point that a kill is never guaranteed in hunting whether you are shooting a rifle or a bow. Hopefully any blood trail will be heavy and short but a long difficult one will hopefully teach prudence, responsibility and respect for hunting in general.
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Dave is she is hunting deer and keeps her shots close and knows to put it behind the shoulder, let her hunt. We want to keep the young in the sport. explain that things happen and she should be prepared for the best and the worst. I have made some hits that appeared to be about perfect and failed to recover the deer and others that were way less than perfect and made a quick recovery. As hunters none of us want to lose an animal but it does happen and we should amke every effort to not let it happen, but we also have to keep on hunting when it does. Shawn
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38# at my draw last year heavy arrow sharp broadhead 12 yards clean pass through!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f137/swankeer/Picture004.jpg
Please resize yer image to 640 pixels wide or less - thanx!
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Taking a dear with a 40 is much reasonable than taking an elk with a 50.
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This is a subject that always crops up at least a few times a year. Here's my take ...
How much stickbow draw weight can ya effectively and consistently control?
How consistently accurate are ya with that draw weight, within yer effective hunting distance?
Can ya create and maintain super sharp broadheads?
Are yer arrows of a proper weight for the game ya seek?
IMO, too many trad bowhunters are overbowed, and it shows in their inability to come to full draw and their subsequent poor accuracy. These folks would be better served dropping down a bunch in draw/holding weight and get a heap more consistent/accurate with the arras they fling.
OTOH, I've seen newbies to trad bowhunting struggling to hold a 40# recurve at 28" of draw.
Then there's the matter of arrow weight - at 10GPP, a bow that holds at 40# will shoot a 400gr arrow. For deer, I think that's too light. So ya up the arra weight to 500gr and now yer in the 12.5GPP range and yer effective arrow speed and killing distance suffers (or at least it should matter to ya).
See my point with all this?
Know yer limits. Understand what tackle is required to effectively down the game yer after, and work towards that tackle goal.
Oh yeah, always HUNT SHARP! :readit:
:wavey:
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Thanks Rob, I'm used to shooting compound bows and realized real quick that trad gear don't have letoff. Lol. I'm comfortable shooting 40# and can shoot a little heavier good. But bow season is in here in Ga. and my other bow hasn't been finished yet. There's been some good advice and it really don't matter if you shoot wheels or trad shot placement and being comfortable with equipment along with sharp heads is what matters most.
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Draw weight can be misleading.
I have 50+ pound bows that are barely suited for rabits, and 40# bows that I would not hesitate to hunt with.
Guaranteed the 40# ACS/CX will outperform the 50# selfbow with any arrow weight. This gives us a wide range of performance to consider, not just bow weight.
A dog of a bow is a dog, but we don't need a race horse either.
We all know to have politicaly correct arrows and flight, but it realy boils down to knowing your limits with the equipment you hunt with, and not taking Hail Marry shots in desperation.
Bow hunting is about getting close, not shooting far.
I had a friend shoot a very large moose with a test bow from Rodney Wright, he drew it 39# at his 27" draw. 1 Arrow and the moose went down, and there was enough energy to bend up the broadhead on the far shoulder. More power would have just bent the head more. He picked his shot and the distance he was confident with after turning down many marginal oportunities. That is good hunting.
To much draw weight for many is giving them false security. We often see short drawing a bow that is to heavy. You do not gain anything when you can not come to full draw! Some guys are short drawing up to 3", but brag they have a heavy bow.
One guy was trying my carbon arrows and insisted he had a 27+" draw length. The arrows were marked for testing in 1" increments and he was actualy only drawing 24". When he tried a lighter weight bow I had with me he was drawing nearly 28" and shot much better. 55# was far to much for him , and a 40# at full draw was shooting the same arrow visibly faster.
Point is draw weight is not the wholy grail of what to use. Shoot what you can draw and hold and don't shoot beyond your means.
Less can also be more.
Pat has a Pecos River longbow that was to heavy for her. When we shaved it down a few pounds the draw length she pulled increased and the arrow speed actualy went up with the same arrows. Why? She ended up holding the same draw weight only at a longer power stroke, and it gave her more performance. Less can be more if you are a short draw shooter.
If we run the jackson calculators www.bowjackson.com (http://www.bowjackson.com) and use the KE / MOM values out to 30 yards we can make some informed decisions on what is good at what ranges. {They show them out to 100 yards}The arrow drop is there also, but this is something that falls under our shooting ability with that set-up, not just drop numbers.
Like I said earlier, I have bows over 50# I would not hunt anything bigger than a rabbit with. Look at the bows performance the way you have it set up, then decide . Most modern 40# bows do just fine when we do it right.
Take only high percentage shots no matter what bow you shoot, and stay within your personal limit of ability. It is better to pass up a shot than to be asking for help to track a poorly hit deer.
Pete
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Great posts Shawn,Rob and PeteW :thumbsup:
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Knowing your equipment and the anatomy of your quarry will go along way in helping choose the right # bow rather than just the experinces of others.
In my experince 40# can do it but I would want more.
Why would the archers that use to shoot 40# or their wife shoots less and its plenty choose to shoot more now.