As of late I've seen a lot of postings here and on other traditional sites degrading and belittling camouflage and carbon suits in particular. I for one think carbon suits are really a great innovation. Since I have started using them I see much more game. As for camouflage, plaid and other pattern will work just fine for deer hunting but turkey is open during archery season too. There is also the point that while I'm hunting I don't want to be seen by other bowhunters.
I like to use as little commercial garb as possible unscented laundry soap wash again with baking soda line dried if possible , scent shield body wash unscented deodorant baking soda in the boots and play the wind
I sometimes spay coon urine on my boots - but it does stink so I skip it frequently. Its hard to say if it makes much difference.
I think carbon suits are a scam.
I use a piece of dental floss tied on my string and watch which way the wind blows it. If the string is blowing towards me, I'm happy. Fortunately that's quite a bit cheaper than ScentLoc and all of that other stuff.
Come to think of it, though - I do have some footwear that might be improved by a strong dose of coon urine. :p
If your not using a carbon suit your scaring more deer than your seeing. Before I started using one I would spook about 30% of the deer I encountered. Since getting one over 10 years ago I have had less than a hand full smell me and half of them are dead.
When evaluating any new item of technology, I always look at it from the perspective of how it impacts fair chase. Does it give an unfair advantage to the hunter? On the one hand, a lot of people say the scent loc stuff doesn't work, that it's just a hoax. But if it does work, if it actually does take away the animal's ability to smell the hunter, that's stacking the deck too much in the hunter's favor, IMO.
The same could be said for camouflage, of course. However, to animal eyes that don't see color, camo may not be a big advantage to the hunter. Deer, for example, may see camo as well as they see blaze orange, or plaid or whatever. In addition, regardless of the pattern worn, hunter movement is another visual cue that the hunted still has to use to their advantage.
I hunt in regular camo, If you know how to hunt you don't need all that high tech fancy stuff, if you try to loc your scent, sit high in the trees, kind of takes the fun out of "hunting"; Plus the cost of it is ridiculous, the average family guy getting buy in this economy needs a loan to buy it, I would rather buy shafts and supplies...just my thought...no offense to anyone :) to each thier own.
Extensive testing has been done by chemical engineers who claim it does work for a while until the carbon absorbs all it can.
Once the carbon absorbs the odors it's useless and requires a temperature of 1100+ degree F to reactivate it. There isn't a dryer made that will put out that 1100 degree temp to reactivate it.
I'll stick to showers, baking powder, spray scent elimination products and most importantly watch the wind.
Guess I'm missing something, never use half the gadgets and potions folks insist are vital to hunting yet game still impails itself on my arrows, unlucky game? Suicidal moose perhapse? Or maybe, just maybe, gullable hunters with more money than comon sense?
At one time I had hoped that a carbon suit could work, but from my experience working canine tracking dogs, from the military testing, and from scientific data and reports, etc....the carbon suit technology cannot prevent your detection from a canine, a deer, or a bear. The commercial carbon suit is already saturated at time of manufacture and neither a commercial nor a military unit can be recharged without destroying the entire garment. It is impossible to recharge either a military or a commercial unit in a commercial clothes dryer.
Superstition and the placebo effect are strong in competitive sports and in hunting. You could have your lucky underwear or your lucky charm and swear that you could pitch the baseball faster or could see more game. If it helps your mental game, go for it. But, no amount of vodoo, polls, or threads can overcome the fact that carbon suits have been scientifically proven not to work for the purpose being used when hunting.
Daddy Bear
I use them religously all the parts gloves, head and mouth cover pants and coat and also a antimocrobial liner system, rubber boots, it is all only worn in the woods then sprayed down before and after each days hunt I shower with antimorobial eearth scented soap every day and mouth spray is also used, yes it's extreme and I hunt the wind but have had deer less then 10 feet while on the ground dead down wind my wind puff bottle with powder has actually hit the deer in the nose and even made a 8 pt sneeze with it once and bear dead down wind at 6 yds who took a ride in the truck, I have seen the results first hand but it all needs to be worn and care for properly then it will have it's full effect, will not step in the woods without it. I have not been winded or had a deer catch my ground scent in the time I have used it. I belive my wall shows it.
No. I use the wind.
Will guys I tried the carbon suits back when they first cane out. And was sold on them until one day for lunch i had a bowl of some good beans. And later that afternoon will lets just say i dont use them now. :biglaugh:
Used to use it, but stopped wearing them bout 6+ years ago. I found that I saw just as many critters without it as I did with it. So the benefits didnt equal the cost.
QuoteOriginally posted by rg176bnc:
If your not using a carbon suit your scaring more deer than your seeing. Before I started using one I would spook about 30% of the deer I encountered. Since getting one over 10 years ago I have had less than a hand full smell me and half of them are dead.
I think its because you have evolved as a hunter, not some gimmicky suit.
I too have had deer at less then 10 feet while hunting on the ground, including the mature doe that I shot at about 8 feet on opening day last year, but I have never owned a carbon suit.
This topic will be debated until the end of man kind... we each have our own way of hunting, and feel it MUST be done this way :notworthy:
I wear mine because I like the camo patterns, and feel if does indeed work just a little bit- than that is in my favor. We can all say we hunt the wind, but in my many years of hunting- I don't think the deer know all the rules about not heading past my stand downwind...in my home state of Michigan- trying to harvest more mature bucks- they usually bring up the rear in a travel group- meaning does/small bucks must pass by- really isn't beneficial when they know something is up...
Some stand locations just are not "perfect" and swirling winds are the norm. If they give me an edge- so be it- I need all the help I can get.....
I use scent, silver thread, along with scent kiling soap, spray, head cover, and take chlorphyll tabs. This takes care of most of my scent, have actuallly hunted upwind of trails and killed deer, had a doe stick her nose in my blind last season first week, 90degerees, sweating like a pig, she finally spooked ran out to 256 yards and looked back just in time to catch a broadhead.
I agree with DRR, that this is a long standing debate, and could go forever. We each use what we feel is ethical, so be it. My issue is that while they may work for some people, they are consistently pricing themselves out of the hands of the average blue collar worker like myself in this time of a troubled economy. I asked my 68 year old Dad about what he had done in the past about the scent issue, and he simply washed his clothes in Baking soda water and hung them on the line to air dry. I think that even if you wear Scentlock and such, which I don't blame anyone that does if it helps them out, we must all be aware of the wind in our blinds/stands. JMHO. Mark
I have and wear both brands...I don't believe they are scent proof but that they help reduce the amount of scent to some degree...I always take the wind into consideration when hunting...the clothing is just one part of what I try to do to reduce the amount of scent...that said most of this stuff is super expensive so I always buy mine on closeout or clearance sale... I'm not going to debate whether Scent Block/Loc works or not, I think it does help some along with a lot of other things. I usually take my actual hunting clothes to the woods in a bag and get dressed there. I don't wear my clothes in stores, restaurants, pump gas, etc. I wear some type of rubber boot usually and they only get worn in the woods. I use scent reducing sprays. I wipe my bow down with it, and my treestand/blind. I play the wind. If I am on a stand and the wind switches on me, I'll move..I do a lot of things that some folks scoff at or say isn't necessary, but I know one thing for sure it works for me!!!
David
I don't personally use them, but I would try them if I needed new clothes and they were on clearance. My theory is also that they may reduce your scent to a certain extent. Possibly the scent is reduced to the point where deer may think the scent is days old or further away. I think some deer may be more tolerant of this reduced scent than others. Basically I think each scent control step that you take, (using scent free soap before hunting, storing clothes in air tite containers, dressing in the woods, scent-loc clothes, etc.) all contribute a small amount to reducing your scent. With that said, the more paranoid I get about all of this the less enjoyment I have. It gets to the point where I don't go out hunting because I don't have time to take a shower beforehand and I don't want to contaminate all of my clothes and have to spend more time re-washing everything.
My theory about re-activating the carbon is that the heat from the clothes dryer may remove a small amount of the built up stink, but more likely the suits simply keep the scent inside (like rubber boots). From what I can tell, the scent-lok material doesn't breathe very well and it may just contain the scent more than it actually "adsorbs" the scent. I always wonder if Gore-tex or any other raingear would be just as effective. I think the same concept is used in the 'Elimitrax' products.
QuoteOriginally posted by econnell71:
I hunt in regular camo, If you know how to hunt you don't need all that high tech fancy stuff, if you try to loc your scent, sit high in the trees, kind of takes the fun out of "hunting"; Plus the cost of it is ridiculous, the average family guy getting buy in this economy needs a loan to buy it, I would rather buy shafts and supplies...just my thought...no offense to anyone :) to each their own.
"IF YOU KNOW HOW TO HUNT"! Why that's a real slap in the face!
Many of you are saying here that you have to use the wind, hunt down wind, etc. Well of course you have to use all the well known hunting tactics and strategies.
I guess as it was said this could be debated forever. I don't believe that carbon suits will make you completely undetectable, but it is a scientific fact that carbon absorbs odor. The amount of odor that is absorbed is enough to allow more game to come into view and bow range than I have ever experienced before carbon suits.
Oh, by the way I've never bought any Scent Blocker or Scent-Loc clothing. My wife gets it for me as presents, so the cost is very reasonable. :biglaugh:
90degerees, sweating like a pig, she finally spooked ran out to 256 yards and looked back just in time to catch a broadhead.
quoted by kroger
I want to know how Koger makes a 256 yard shot with a broadhead :scared: , I find it tough make 25 yard shots sometimes!!!!
Koger- someone had to ask :banghead:
So far if I am interpreting the poll correctly, it appears that there are many that don't own/use carbon suits but that some that don't still feel it to be effective. Or to put it another way, perhaps on a wish list.
Camo: with few exception everyone likes camo.
QuoteOriginally posted by DRR324:
90degerees, sweating like a pig, she finally spooked ran out to 256 yards and looked back just in time to catch a broadhead.
quoted by kroger
I want to know how Koger makes a 256 yard shot with a broadhead :scared: , I find it tough make 25 yard shots sometimes!!!!
Koger- someone had to ask :banghead:
If you practice out to 500, 256 is a cake shot.
:biglaugh:
i use one but i'm not sure how much it helps. probably not much for me since i'm not anal about only putting them on when i get to my stand and not wearing it into the house and all that stuff. i spray my self down a little bit w/ some scent killer and some earth cover scent. to be honest i think the suits can help a LITTLE bit but only if you take all the extra precautions to keep them away from other odors. honsetly i'm gonna have to go w/ the wind guys in that the wind is prob the most important factor. one time when hunting i had a small stand in a little pine tree about 6 feet high out in a field. i had broken a few branches when i got in it so i could hang my quiver. i had a young buck walk right up against the tree about 2 or 3 feet from my feet and it never smelled me. i came to the conclusion that the pine scent covered mine and that's why. i don't know, i still buy the scentlok stuff even thought i'm not totally convinced or sold on it. i guess i'm dumb that way lol
I think it depends a lot on how you hunt. If you sit in a treestand wearing scent suits etc is probably helpful.
I hunt on the ground and find the suits-or any kind of 'barrier' doesn't breathe well under exertion, so I use the soaps, baking soda, and step in cow pies.
On the ground you have to always think of wind.
I wear camo and find it effective; plaid probably works equally well..
I think your attitude about what works is your best weapon. If you believe that it does I bet that you will help it to be so. Carbon suits are expensive goodies but you really have to consider that some smell does get past the carbon liner of the clothing via the neck line, cuffs ect. and a deer will smell it. Nothing is full prof gentlemen. Just a thought...
QuoteOriginally posted by VA Bowbender:
.... but it is a scientific fact that carbon absorbs odor. The amount of odor that is absorbed is enough to allow more game to come into view and bow range than I have ever experienced before carbon suits.
Yo are listing a fact that doesnt really support so much as allow, your following anecdotal generalization.
I suspect that the difference in smell between clean clothes stored outside and the smell of carbon clothes is much smaller than the smell of your breath.
EDIT: I just realized that could be read the wrong way. I mean that deer can probably smell human scent in anyones breath.
i dont think they are worth money. Many centuries have passed without their use. so that must prove something, no? I watch the wind, and use natural cover scents (pure skunk essence) and dont have any problem with not seeing deer and i still harvest my share!
THESE CARBON SUITS are just like when everybody started using deer whistles when they first came on the market and i proved to the people THAT THEY DO WORK!!I ride a motorcycle and i put my new deer whistles on backwards and TOOK OFF DOWN THE ROAD LIKE GREASED LIGHTNING AND LOOKED IN MY MIRROR AND THOSE DEER WHERE CHASING ME!!!!! BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT BUT FOR SURE WATCHING THE WIND WORKS!!!!!
I remain dubious about the effectiveness of the SentLoc stuff especially given the (IMO) high cost. Even if they work perfectly though, many of us hunt on public land (or even heavily used private land) where ours isn't the only human scent the deer are likely to encounter.
Even if I spend all I earn in order to become the perfect olfactory ninja, that doesn't stop the deer from spooking at the scent of hikers, bikers, horseback riders, other hunters, wandering hippies, etc.
Thanks anyway - I'll blow money on wool or something instead.
I have a hard time understanding this whole issue. Why is it an "issue" at all? It has been determined scientifically, (many times), that it is impossible to work as described. ( it actually does exactly what it was intended to 'to get your money out of your wallet' nothing more)
Marketing is an amazing thing.
Some people want to believe certain things so intensely that no amount of facts can convince them otherwise. If you treat your normal clothes as the manufactureures of scent blocking garments tell you to take care of thier garments you will/would see the same results. Come on, wake up and stop watching/ buying into all the crap you see on TV. They sold millions of pills for Restless leg syndrom and this syndrom and that syndrom, give me a break. Get off the frick-n couch and stop buying into all the BS slung at youy from marketers and salesman. Do you believe all that crap Billy Mays sells does what it's said to do. Scent Blocker/Lock is no different. Wake the hell up.
I believe that the carbon suits work somewhat; they reduce the smell of money in your wallet.
I'd like to see the research and examine the methodology of that research with a full conflict of interest disclosure statement before I conclude anything. Until you have that it's all anecdotal evidence or conjecture. I've never seen a double blind independent study though perhaps it does exist. jct, do have any links to any studies? I don't mean the "I wrapped some hamburg in it and my dog found it studies" but the standard of research that would pass the scrutiny of the wizards at M.I.T.
Until I see that as far as I am concerned the jury is still out. My own anecdotal evidence? I was wearing about three layers of it and waiting in the van with some buds when I cut one that truly belonged in a zoo! Cleared out the van! I've been a doubtful wearer since. :biglaugh: I've been on the ground without face paint and had them come in to within FEET. BUT this was in suburban woods and maybe they were just use to human scent. I had a buck within 15 yards while 3D shooting in shorts. I do wear it though as I believe in can diminish scent. But until we have valid research with ALL the parameters of good research being met, we're all just "talking trash" in a way! :) I want to see real research Anybody?
Its pretty much the same thing as a gas mask and we know they work. I dont know the science behind how the suit releases the trapped scent and dont really care. I work in a very smelly enviroment w/ a smoker. I used to go about 4 times a week right after work regardless of wind and never had a problem w/ deer spooking from scent.
If ya get lazy, every once in a while a deer would act alittle funny but thats about it. It didnt work as well on pigs, but they smell better that dogs anyway.
put on yer scentlock suit, take a walk and see how fast your dog can find you! Its SNAKEOIL folks, been around for a long long time :D
QuoteOriginally posted by trapperDave:
put on yer scentlock suit, take a walk and see how fast your dog can find you! Its SNAKEOIL folks, been around for a long long time :D
I think this would be the best test. I have owned and hunted with hounds for a lot of years. I have seen a dog wind a animal at 70 yards. I am sure a deers nose is at least that good. This would be a good test. Has anyone done it?
QuoteOriginally posted by longbawl:
Will guys I tried the carbon suits back when they first cane out. And was sold on them until one day for lunch i had a bowl of some good beans. And later that afternoon will lets just say i dont use them now. :biglaugh:
That's really funny, especially considering that this is one of things that convinces me that mine works as I don't smell those "gaseous discharges".
Another simple little test you could do, is just put something strong smelling under the "Scent Lok/Blocker" fabric and see if you can smell it by sniffing the outside of the fabric. Then try it on some regular clothing and see what your results are. I bet you will find that the scent is at least much weaker through the scent blocking material if not blocked entirely. At least that's been my findings. If your Scent Lok/Blocker clothing fails, then maybe its worn out or needs to be reactivated.
There is a little scratch and sniff thing on the tags of the garments now. I stopped and got a set of pants today.
Even if it only puts your scent down to trace amounts it still works. To the deer you smell like you were there 2 days ago instead of today. I'm not bragging folks, but I have killed 85 whitetails in the last 11 years while wearing one of these suits. I know without a doubt they work. Killed way to many adult deer downwind of me to convinced diffrently. I dont even shower anymore before going afield.
I will say they dont work as well on pigs. I dont get to hunt them often, but my experince has been about 10-15% downwind will smell ya expecially big boars. Pigs smell way better than deer anyway. Had plenty of coyotes come in downwind and never flinch a muscle as well.
My buddy was a skeptic as well till I talked him into buying one. You couldnt pry it off his back now.
I have never talked to anybody that has used one and was dissapointed in it, if they used it correctly.
You know what always strikes me funny about those suits is every time I walk into cabelas they are hanging right out in the open. Absorbing all of the odors, smells, and people fingering them. Always figured they should be vaccuum sealed in plastic bags just like the good carbon that I buy for my fish aquarium. They seal it up tight and claim it is sealed to preseve its purity. Maybe they work or maybe they don't, but why don't they seal them up in the store? Seams like they would want to preserve its purity. dino
camo?? im not a believer
Why would you use something that costs a fortune and doesn't work? Yes I can afford any of it.Rich Potter (nut)
Science can be misinterpreted. . . but when the military and industry standards use carbon and clearly show that it takes over 1000 degrees to regenerate the carbon you got to wonder.
With that said. . . do you think that some of the good reports are more a fact that the carbon does not breath and therefore acts like a rubber rain suit or plastic? I would be willing to small bet on that one.
i know of someone who uses a rubber suit as a scent elimination method, the theory behind that is way better than charcoal
QuoteOriginally posted by WidowEater:
camo?? im not a believer
Do you turkey hunt?
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
Science can be misinterpreted. . . but when the military and industry standards use carbon and clearly show that it takes over 1000 degrees to regenerate the carbon you got to wonder.
With that said. . . do you think that some of the good reports are more a fact that the carbon does not breath and therefore acts like a rubber rain suit or plastic? I would be willing to small bet on that one.
Clearly you never wore any because if you had you would know that the first drop of rain that touches it goes right through it like you weren't wearing anything. I have the light weight stuff for early fall. My wife just bought me a whole set of saddle cloth heavier weight "DREAM SEASON" Scent Blocker and the new Scent Blocker boots for this fall, I just love that ole girl.
(http://www.robinsonoutdoors.com/osc/product_thumb.php?img=images/product/DSBK.jpg&w=500&h=500) (http://www.robinsonoutdoors.com/osc/product_thumb.php?img=images/product/SBDSXJC1.jpg&w=500&h=500) (http://www.robinsonoutdoors.com/osc/product_thumb.php?img=images/product/SBDSXP16.jpg&w=500&h=500)
Wouldn't it be much cheaper for her to buy you a rabbit foot to go on your key ring?
I've arrowed several nice bucks near point blank over several decades and I always had a set of keys and a pocket knife on me. Clearly the pocket knife and the keys absorbed all my human scent making me invisible for 360degrees. Add a rabbits foot and you'll be invisible and lucky:)
Your commercial carbon has reached the saturation point by time of manufacture and cannot be regenerated below 1000degrees! You are running around with clothing that is overrun and sopping wet with scent, moreso than if you didn't wear it. Just think how well you would do if you got rid of that smelly suit and wore garments that you could maintain to keep the scent down.
You can be double wrapped in a military grade unit that was deployed in lab conditions and a canine will find you as fast by stopwatch on a course than if you wore street clothes. That is with a sealed military unit dawned in a test environment, and even the military units are one time use once the seal is broken because it is impossible to regenerate the carbon below 1000degrees. You'd be better off finding a different lucky charm than the poor choice of a bulky, smelly carbon suit to drag around the woods like a ball and chain.
later,
Daddy Bear
Show me proof of that statement because the stuff works.
Here's what I don't understand. Everyone that I know that uses one says they help but you must still hunt the wind. If I hunt the wind why would I need one? It's just hunter bate and we bite it big time.
Now with that said if you want one buy one. I don't care. Why are you so touchy about it. If you don't want to know what someone thinks don't ask. I don't ask what people think about my bow because I don't care. I hunt the way I like with what I like. And hunt alone because most of the hunters I know are not woodsmen and don't want to learn to be one. They would rather buy stuff than learn to be a good woodsmen. Not saying you are not a good woodsmen if you wear sent lok. Just saying being a good woodsmen is WAY more important. And BASSPRO don't sell it.
I keep seeing the response of "prove it doesn't work, scientifically, or show me proof of your statement that it doesn't work".
I say to those who believe it works and are so adiment that it works, show me some scientific proof that it does work. None of the this deer did this or that or manufacturer claims. Scientific proof.
The manufacturer wants us to buy it, you belivers want us non-believers to believe it works.
Me not falling for the claims costs me zippy. The science behind carbon proves it cannot work as described in an article of clothing. You prove me wrong with documented, factual, testing done on the actual garment. Until then I stick by my statement that it's a gimmick.
" A fool and his money are soon parted"
Do not take this personal:
The ASTM Committee F-23 manuals on protective clothing is a good place to start. They've tested the limits of carbon suit technology to know what it can and cannot do.
Here is a running report of the carbon suit scam maintained by T.R. Michels:
http://www.trmichels.com/ActivatedCarbonScience.htm
Here is another article on the carbon suit scam with the test conducted by JA Shivik, Ph.D with search and rescue dogs.
http://www.outdoorscentral.com/artman/publish/article_169.shtml
Here are Lessons from the U.S. Army CANE Exercises:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/war_next_time/schneider2.pdf
Here is a good overall article on the subject by a biologist with a Science degree who has worked in the environmental protection field for more than ten years:
http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/corrigan/scent_suits.htm
Here is a follow up article on the subject:
http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/corrigan/scent_suits_deuce.htm
This is the Virginia Tech paper on partial desorbed activated carbon between temperatures ranging from 100–649°C which is above 212degrees F:
http://www.ce.vt.edu/program_areas/environmental/teach/wtprimer/carbon/sketcarb.html
You can also read the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers – Engineering and Design, Adsorption Design Guide, Design Guide Manual No. DG1110-1-2, which shows that the only method to fully re-activate saturated activated-carbon, you must heat it to approximately 800 °C or 1,472 °F, in a controlled atmosphere of low oxygen concentration to reduce the possibility of combustion.
Here is a little article that touches on the manufacturing of your commercial carbon suit compared to the military unit:
http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/NULLO_-_Making_Good_Scents_105/4_Old_1_New_Scent_Control_Strategies.shtml
The facts go on and on. Bottom line, on this planet, using materials from this planet, and using the laws of science from this planet; it is impossible for your commercial carbon suit to work for you while hunting as you claim. Your carbon suit is fully saturated at time of manufacture, there is no method known to man for your saturated carbon suit to be desorbed, and the only methods known for your saturated carbon suit to be partially desorbed is greater than any temperature reached by any household dryer manufactured. Even if you had access to technical heating equipment to safely bring the temps of your saturated carbon suit above 212degrees F, it is a losing battle as you will have a continual loss in the ability for your suit to be partially desorbed. The highest grade sealed military unit is worthless beyond 1 use, 45 days of being unsealed, or 6 washings. Your commercial suit is worthless the moment it is manufactured.
Later,
Daddy Bear
I think carbon suits "work" the same way camo "works"--it makes some folks more confident.
I used to know a guy who was a dang good shot--as long as he knew the bow he was shooting was one of a few certain brand names. He didn't shoot nearly as well with any others (that I saw at least). I firmly believe that he could have shot the lights out with a broomhandle strung with baleing twine if he was convinced it was one of those brands he liked.......and he couldn't hit the ground with one of those same bows he shot so well if you convinced him it was some "off" brand.
I guess if they work for you, or if you are just convinced they work for you, they are worth it. Archery is a very mental sport.
Chad
All fair chase,All bow,All inside 20yds,None with scent lock,All heavy hunted land. I did try it when it first came out. But found it did not help I still got busted when i didnt hunt the wind.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb296/rt2bowhunter/000_0047.jpg)
Daddy Bear, you rock brother. You just posted the info I was atempting to gather up.
If all that doesn't sink in to those who seem to believe it works then theres no hope.
I now challenge anyone to counter Daddybears information on this.
People are sheep. Follow the leader no matter how rediculous the leader is. All the outdoor shows and channels excist for ONE reason, to sell you crap. And you buy it. Completly foolish!
The idea that if it gives you confidence then it works is hogwash.
How about confidence in oneself, have we completly lost that. I would think you would seek medical attention and some sorta medication if you felt the need for "name brands" to boost your confidence. Come on!
VAbowbender I believe he just showed you proof of his statement, now lets see your proof otherwise.
Daddy Bear , thank you very much for providing the information requested. Although 2 of the links wouldn't open the others did and make for enlightening reading. Because of that material I can rethink the full and partial effectiveness of Scent suits.
On the other hand jct you're just venomous, angry and demeaning. Why would anyone listen to you.
"Venomous, angry and demeaning." Thats a little exagerated don't you think.
I don't believe name calling does much for your argeument.
So be it, I have thick skin, let the name calling rip if it makes you feel better.
Changes nothing, I call it as I see it, you don't have to like it.
VA Bowbender,
You are a fine gentelman and you represent the Great State of Virginia well!
This is an excellent forum where we can share knowledge and opinions related to our common passion for traditional archery. Bowbender, I know your' offered opinion on this topic was in that spirit of sharing as was my reply:) It is refreshing when gentlemen can discuss such hot topics while staying above board. Tongue in cheek is one thing, but the drawing of battle lines and huring insults towards anyone because they may or may not use AC garments is a bit much for my taste. Regardless the outcome of your carbon suit, I found this to be a good thread and I salute you for standing up to all the abuse:)
later,
Daddy Bear
I have sent an e-mail to Robinson Technologies (makers of SCENT BLOCKER)copies of some of the text and information contained in these postings. I asked the what their response is to the information contained therein. I will post it if and when I get a response.
I believe they are named in the pending legal suit and may refrain from any open dialog other than bare minimum legal speak. It was noted that they began to pull some of their previous statements from web publications which may have been in preparation for this pending litigation.
To be frank, I cannot see how they could support their previous position if this goes to trial in the face of all the scientific peer reviewed evidence and expert witnesses that the legal team has prepared to use against them. I believe their only out is to avoid a trial. They appear to have done a great job of stalling to this point:)
You may not be interested, but I believe you do have the option of adding your name to the suit. Being that the scent blocker was purchased for your use, you may be considered one of the victims in the consumer fraud litigation. I think there was a link somewhere in the shortcuts I posted to contact a representative of the legal team.
Best of luck,
Daddy Bear
I might have missed it but all I saw was Scent-Loc, Cabela's, Gander Mt.,and Bass Pro.
Here's a link to Scent Blocker and how it works. I think it's interesting reading.
http://www.robinsonoutdoors.com/osc/scentcontrol.php
Just reading it with the knowledge of the peer reviewed studies that scientifically proved the required minimum temperature threshold to partially desorb human odor molecules from carbon, I'd say Robinson Outdoors was very careful to cherry pick meanings and words that sound like and imply other scientific meanings and words used in this field, but have a total different meaning. The person who crafted that page probably was a used car salesman wearing a loud plaid suit:)
If they take the VT and Military peer studies to indicate that the temperature required to partially desorb the molecule to be 100degrees F and within the range of a household clothes dryer, they are mistaken. That is 100degrees C on the bottom end! No household dryer will boil water. It is scientific fact that this human molecule is fairly long compared to some of the other molecules and therefore requires a greater temperature for the carbon to be partially desorbed, which is greater than the boiling point on the low end. Above the boiling point, it is scientifically proven to be impossible to desorb all of these molecules without reacing temps well above 1000degrees F. It is also a scientific proven fact that this build up will continue and quickly reach a point where the carbon will become useless without any ability to be partially desorbed. This time frame is very short for even the very best military grade carbon units. They have this point of disposal figured out to a science to properly manage military grade equipment.
When you purchased your commercial suit, no matter how it was packaged, it was not manufactured in a sealed environment. By the time it is in your hands, the carbon material has reached its maximum level of absorbtion. There may be some odor molecules that you can partially desorb below 100degrees C at first go, but beyond that, what tiny bit of room you may have left is used up ASAP. You'll never have the ability to heat the carbon to a temperature high enough to partially desorb your human scent molecules and you'll never have the ability to wash your garment. You end up painting yourself into a corner no matter which direction you turn.
If the garment is of high quality construction and otherwise function well when afield, I'd cut out the carbon to avoid hauling around this extra layer which is no more than a saturated scent sponge which cannot be purged. You can then use and launder the clothing as normal:)
Best of Luck,
Daddy Bear
ttt
Answer from Scent Blocker
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your email. As with all products, there are naysayers.
And often, the naysayer attempts to use science to support their theory, but
just as often there is an underlying or ulterior motive for doing so. In
this case, the first "scientist" to attempt to debunk carbon suits'
effectiveness and their ability to be reactivated was a guy named Michael
Corrigan, an environmental engineer. It turned out later that he was a
shill putting out propaganda for another product attempting to breakthrough
in the marketplace - XStatic antimicrobial hunting garments. I'll touch on
that subject a bit later on.
Basically, from an extremely technical standpoint, the use of the
term reactivation is where the problem lies. In order to "reactivate" spent
activated carbon, technically means to actually expose it to the same set of
conditions under which it was activated in the first place. Carbon is
originally activated by very high heat, often accompanied by steam, at temps
in the 800-1100 degree C range. Obviously this cannot be duplicated by our
household dryers.
The proper term is regeneration or desporption. There are two main
types of adsorption which occur with activated carbon. One is physical
adsorption. This is what occurs when a low level volatile such as human
odor is adsorbed by carbon through a process called Van der Waal's forces.
This type of process is a very low energy, non-specific, and easily
reversible type of attraction. Human odor can be purged or desorbed, thereby
"regenerating" the carbon, when the energy of the bond attracting and
holding the contaminant to the carbon is overcome by a greater energy. And
it has been quite thoroughly documented that the heat of most standard
residential dryers - 130 to 150 degrees Farenheit - is quite sufficient to
overcome this bond. It is by no means a 100% desorption, but is capable of
desorbing over and over many times, purging the odor and providing new sites
for additional human odor to be adsorbed.
The other main type of adsorption is one where a chemical bond is
created, often called chemisorption. This is what occurs when activated
carbon is used to adsorb industrial or hazardous waste, and a chemical bond
is created. This is the type of adsorption that is not easily reversible,
and does require very high heat in the neighborhood of 1100 deg C in order
to break these bonds and completely "reactivate" the carbon. This is what
everyone has latched onto in saying that carbon cannot be reactivated in our
dryers.
As for antimicrobials, I just want to make sure you understand
exactly how they work and what purpose they serve. And they do serve a
purpose and can definitely help when it comes to odor control, but they are
not odor eliminating clothing like some would have you believe.
Antimicrobial use in fabric/garments helps prevent the formation of
bacteria-caused odor - in the fabric itself. They do absolutely nothing to
an odor - they don't trap, adsorb, netralize or otherwise have any affect on
an existing odor. And they cannot prevent the formation of odor that is not
bacterially generated (bacteria acting on perspiration), there are many
sources of odor that have nothing to do with bacteria.
I hope this helps answer some fo your concerns Rob. Good luck, and
let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Regards,
Keith
Keith Edberg
Operations Manager
Robinson Outdoors
110 N Park Dr
Cannon Falls, MN 55009
ph: 507-263-2885
fax: 507-263-5512
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Bingel [mailto:rbbingel@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 3:05 PM
To: Melissa Banks
Subject: Question/Comment from Robinson Outdoors Inc
Let me first say I am a huge fan of all your products. On tradgang.com I
posted a poll Topic: Do you use Scent Blocker or Scent Loc . There were many
replies debunking the effectiveness of carbon suits. Things such as
"Extensive testing has been done by chemical engineers who claim it does
work for a while until the carbon absorbs all it can.
Once the carbon absorbs the odors it's useless and requires a temperature of
1100+ degree F to reactivate it. There isn't a dryer made that will put out
that 1100 degree temp to reactivate it." and At one time I had hoped that a
carbon suit could work, but from my experience working canine tracking dogs,
from the military testing, and from scientific data and reports, etc....the
carbon suit technology cannot prevent your detection from a canine, a deer,
or a bear. The commercial carbon suit is already saturated at time of
manufacture and neither a commercial nor a military unit can be recharged
without destroying the entire garment. It is impossible to recharge either a
military or a commercial unit in a commercial clothes dryer.
Superstition and the placebo effect are strong in competitive sports and in
hunting. You could have your lucky underwear or your lucky charm and swear
that you could pitch the baseball faster or could see more game. If it helps
your mental game, go for it. But, no amount of voodoo, polls, or threads can
overcome the fact that carbon suits have been scientifically proven not to
work for the purpose being used when hunting.
What is your answer to these accusations
Excellent response. Learn something new every day!
Killdeer :campfire:
I waited.. on this...
I bought a scent blocker lite wt suit on clearance bout 6 yrs ago..
Did it work? Yes, but I think it was only partially... Not as advertised.. But I think a goretex suit like the dream season (with closures at the venting areas neck, sleeves, leg openings... would be even more effective cause, the way I see it working is:
The suit is so thick that less smell actually is able to get through the cloth... Gas can't go through liquid unless there's pressure, so it works like a rain suit.. you sweat till its wet, then nothing can pass through the cloth... only at the neck, sleeves and belt area and pants leg openings...
But where I hike in, carry a stand, get up the tree.. I am soaked unless its NOv or Dec and then I am sometimes...