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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: DW on September 02, 2008, 10:31:00 PM

Title: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: DW on September 02, 2008, 10:31:00 PM
OK, BOYS AND GIRLS.....What do you think this is???? It's authentic and came from the Tennessee River Valley in North Alabama.......I personally took this picture Friday afternoon........  (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/rickybob_2006/DSC_0391.jpg)
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Dozer on September 02, 2008, 10:32:00 PM
Is it a human bone or animal?
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: BOFF on September 02, 2008, 10:35:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by DW:
OK, BOYS AND GIRLS.....What do you think this is???? It's authentic and came from the Tennessee River Valley in North Alabama.......I personally took this picture Friday afternoon........    (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k209/rickybob_2006/DSC_0391.jpg)
Simple answer is: it's an arrow/spear head in a piece of bone. How about a reference for size in the picture.  By the way, an awesome find.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: bbairborne on September 02, 2008, 10:38:00 PM
must have been effective. What size is it?

------------
Trad Rag | com
Stick & String or Cap & Ball | Giveaways
Longbow: ACS-CX 58#@28. Arrow: GT5575 Traditional, 100gr. Brass insert, 125 gr. Magnus 2-blade: 530 gr. total.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: DW on September 02, 2008, 10:41:00 PM
Sorry about no reference in the pic....I was just amazed to be holding it....Bone is 2.5" tall and the point is protruding about 2.5 ".....What type of bone do you think it is? Don
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Matty on September 02, 2008, 11:05:00 PM
WOW what an Awesome Find!!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Talondale on September 02, 2008, 11:11:00 PM
I don't know but if it had been a single bevel head it would have broken that bone and passed through.  :D
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: WidowEater on September 02, 2008, 11:13:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Talondale:
I don't know but if it had been a single bevel head it would have broken that bone and passed through.   :D  
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Chris Surtees on September 02, 2008, 11:14:00 PM
What a find!!! To me it looks like a vertebra. Thanks for sharing DW.

CS
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Falk on September 03, 2008, 05:01:00 AM
I would say "the aim was low" - very low! Looks like the first digit of a buffalo to me.

Pics from different angles would allow for a better recognition. Are you familiar with doing 3D-pictures from two shots take side by side (distance as about in human eyes)?
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Killdeer on September 03, 2008, 05:20:00 AM
I'm with Falk on the bone, though I would not commit to buffalo (calf) or elk. It does look like a toebone from a cloven hoof.

Killdeer  :campfire:
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: doctari on September 03, 2008, 05:25:00 AM
I would say vertebre, maybe neck. That is one awesome find.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: ethan on September 03, 2008, 06:03:00 AM
That is an awesome find!  Either Gene or Barry Wensel had an article in TBM a couple of years ago that had a picture of something very similiar.  I believe the one he had was a bison vertebrea(sp?) and was dated as pre-historic.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Kevin Bahr on September 03, 2008, 07:22:00 AM
I don't know what bone it is, but I doubt if it is hoof material.  Hoof material is keratin, not bone and most likely would not stand the test of time and the elements as this artifact appears to have done.  Way cool find and photo though!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: BOHO on September 03, 2008, 08:41:00 AM
I thought it was a turd thru a leaf. Cool pic for sure.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Falk on September 03, 2008, 09:12:00 AM
Kevin,
horn material is Keratin. But it is not growing in thin air and needs something to adhere to - this is where the bones (more or less Calcium-Phosphate) come in handy  ;)  Try to cut through your fingernail sometime and look what is underneeth?
Every claw, nail, hoof or horn (headgear) for that matter will have a bone inside - except in Rhinos, which don't grow horn per se. The horn is growing as a sheat, as an outer layer on bone and soft tissue. It will quite easily decompose (spelling) and in fact is gone in the pic above.

If I assume it is what I think, then you could also make some adjucated guess as far as it's age is concerned and what had happened after all:
From the angle the point or shaft has entered we can assume it was shot by an indian from horseback as he had already passed the buffalo. If we could determine if it is right or left and front or rear, we could also tell at which side the Indian rode along. To me it looks like a left phalange, from left rear foot. So, I assume he undershot the belly of the buff as he passed on the right and hit the hind hoof with his arrow.
So, we need a right handed Indian on a horse and a buffalo to shot at. I have no idea about when horses where available to Indians in greater numbers nor when Buffalo Bill Cody shot the last, but IMO a timeframe between maybe 1600 and 1865 sounds plausible.

[A ballistic head on attac on a buffalo seems unlikely to have been tried. Shooting from a cliff or elevated stand would be an other, less romantic possibility to explain direction and angle the shaft had entered.]

Small remains can tell big stories, not?!  ;)

Falk
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: BUFF on September 03, 2008, 09:15:00 AM
too cool
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: DW on September 03, 2008, 08:07:00 PM
Cool Theory Falk.....but was found in the South Eastern U.S. and I don't think the Cherokee's, which were common in this area, hunted the woodland buffalo from horseback.....Could be wrong.......Hopefully one of our TG brothers, who is very knowledgable about relics from this area, will speak up soon....I sent him an e-mail a few minutes ago.......A side note....we're only a few miles from Russell Cave national monument and one of the resident professionals there told us his take on this....GOOGLE Russell Cave and check out some of the cool links and threads.......THX FOR LOOKING, Don
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: SouthMDShooter on September 03, 2008, 09:21:00 PM
very cool find!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: gregg dudley on September 03, 2008, 09:35:00 PM
DW,  Very cool!  THanks for sharing.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: tippit on September 03, 2008, 10:32:00 PM
It looks like the distal end of the the radius (front leg) where the cartilage growth plate (epiphysis) separted through the years.  Is the end we don't see fractured?  Doc
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: TNstickn on September 03, 2008, 10:57:00 PM
Awesome find. Thanks for sharing with us. I'll be day dreaming about that for the rest of the season. Hope you get an answer as to what kind/part of the animal it came from. Cant wait to hear!!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Killdeer on September 03, 2008, 11:04:00 PM
Take a deer leg. Cut the toe off, drop it in a pot of boiling water. When the hoof boils soft, the keratin lamina separates easily from the toebone. The toebone looks like the bone in the picture.

Killdeer  :saywhat:
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Kevin Bahr on September 04, 2008, 02:03:00 AM
Thanks for the biology lesson, Falk.  I needed that!  Still a great find and cool picture.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Falk on September 04, 2008, 04:31:00 AM
Kevin, your are welcome  :D

The following picture shows the distal bones from:  Bison bison (http://lamar.colostate.edu/~lctodd/phal.jpg)

I have to admit, now that Tippit has mentioned it, that I like his idea of the end of a radius too - proximal end though. This way the deep lobes around the articulation surface and the obvious lack of rough surface and holes from many vessles through the bone, could be explained.
Estimating the size I think it could be no Bison anymore. A Deer then?! Shot from the right, quatering away, but the hunter missed a deadly shot by an inch or two ... Bad luck!

We need more pics!

DW, BTW: Sure a great find - if I failed to say that - sorry! But I somehow like this sort of puzzle - and get carried away  :wavey:
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Killdeer on September 04, 2008, 05:35:00 AM
:bigsmyl:  
Me too!
 :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: SilverTip on September 04, 2008, 05:44:00 AM
I got your message Don, thanks. It looks like a Lanceolate type pojectile/spear possibly a Agate Basin or late Paleo. If you get a another look at it check and see if it has grinding on the base and up the lateral side hafting areas. the grinding is very light to medium on those type of points. If it lacks the grinding, they also made a few lanceolate projectiles in the Middle to late Archaic period without grinding. No matter what time period its from thats a awesome find and should be documented. They found a clovis in a mamouth bone and that proved the use and age of those type of spears, before that it was just a guessing game.  Super find and thanks for the look.

         Billy
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: CheapShot on September 04, 2008, 06:40:00 AM
Wow, I have found a few points over the years, gut nothing that cool. I sure would like to see it in person some day. Thanks for sharing with us Don.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: TradPaul on September 04, 2008, 10:00:00 AM
It looks like a very old projectile inbedded in a very old Snapping Turtle head....do they have those in Tennessee?   :bigsmyl:   Anyway thats what it looks like to me...


P.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Tom Leemans on September 04, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
Well obviously, it's Achilles heal bone!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: John3 on September 04, 2008, 05:45:00 PM
Great pic!!! What a find.
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: Bjorn on September 04, 2008, 06:05:00 PM
Nice-thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: TRADITIONAL Bowhunting-----Check out this PIC
Post by: cmh on September 04, 2008, 08:56:00 PM
What a excellant find  ;)  Tahnks for the pic.  Craig