I have been shooting traditional for about 1.5 years so I've been working on form mostly but now I'm looking at bare shafting. I practice at least 5 days a week and I've gone three weeks straight without missing a day so I've gotten much better.
Form for the most part is becoming secondary but I still have to make sure every once in a while to FOCUS! I hate it when I just let them fly without total concentration.
So today I decided to bare shaft some arrows to see what I could "see".
Setup:
Martin Savannah #50 @ 28" drawn to around 29.5"
Beman MFX classics and Black Max 30.5" with regular inserts
Three 5" fletch and an 8" wrap with 145 grain tips.
I can hit when I'm on my game where I look but lapse every once in awhile.
So today with some bare shafts and fletched I sent some down range...both hit to the same point but the bare shaft arrows were a nock high. The fletched were straight in the target and not nock high.
I didn't see any difference between 125 grain or 145 grain heads but they did show weak with 200 grain heads. Actually there was no difference between the 125 and 145 grain heads.
I raised my nock some to around 5/8" high and it didn't change anything, even when higher at one point (wanted to make sure I wasn't bouncing them off the shelf)...the only thing I didn't do was lower the nock point, should have tried that.
Currently the nock is around 3/8" high and the fletched arrows seem to fly well. I'm concerned when I switch to broadheads here soon I'm going to get some flyers.
Should I be worried or should I tell myself to relax and just enjoy my shooting? I for the most part can send 3 to 4 arrows into a 3" circle every time but notice when I'm not concentrating. I feel it as soon as I let it go that the shot is going to be bad. I like that feeling...makes me concentrate on the next shot that much more.
Any suggestions or am I reading too much into this? Probably reading too much into this!
Thanks,
Josh
I'd like to add that I did shoot some with the arrow lower than the nock point and they hit very low in the target, both fletched and bare. They seem to fly the best fetched with a 3/8" high nock point, but the bare shafts were nock high.
Josh
I pay little attenting tothe way the noc points when bare shafting.A tight noc,loose nock or anything else can effect that and it really matters little anyway.You can drive yourself batty over little things that don't really matter a lot because fletching takes care of it.The main goal for bareshafting to to check arrow spine and fine tuneing after that is best done when you stick on broadheads anyway.jmo
Assuming your form and arrow rest brace height etc etc is right bareshafts will hit left of your group of fletched arrows if too stiff a spine , right if weak
Bareshafts will hit above the group of fletched arrows if you need to raise your nocking point , lower you need to lower your nocking point . If nocking point is correct they will group together assuming spine is right , form , equipment etc is tuned
regards Jacko
I go with Jaco on how to make sure your arrows do meet the bow at peak weight. Now another reason the bare shaft may not fly true is just a thing called release. If you put to much pressure on your top finger (index) it sure does change things...so keep it simple and the final test is if the fletched arrow flys then you are ok. I am shooting bemen 500 at 29 1/4 inch long with 125 gr field / BH..with 3, 5.5 feathers...
Bill
I'm still confused why people keep trying to shoot arrows with no feathers on them..... :rolleyes:
Josh,
If your fletched arrows and bare shafts are hitting at the same point, then you have the correct arrows for your bow. A bare shaft is suppossed to be slightly nock high. Remember, it has no feathers to clear the shelf.
When you install your broadheads, spin test them to ensure optimal flight.
Best of luck this season.
Josh, you are confused cause you are trying to mix 2 different tuning methods...Where they group is the "planeing" method and works well. Looking at shaft angle is the "kick" method and doesn't work well for most people cause things other then nock set and form can cause it and will never be "fixed" with typical tuning methods. Ignore the kick and move on to wide matched broadheads.
Chuck, cause he cares about how well his equipment is tuned. One doesn't have to shoot bare shafts, wide fletched broadheads will tell him the same thing. Finding the ballpark point weight first would eliminate the need for several different broadhead weights for tuning purposes.....O.L.
All,
From what I've read in this posts (and others) if the arrows are hitting the same point but nock high it's okay?
The things that make me think the arrows are spined right are because they fly into the target straight with fletching and I don't see wild flight with normal shooting. I seem to get good flight with a fletched arrow...this assumes I release clean. I do notice some bad flight if I don't release clean...I can tell immediately if my form was bad.
I just happened to need to refletch three arrows so I decided to do some bare shaft tuning with different point weights and nock heights. I wonder if I should have just refletched them and not worried about it! Keep it simple stupid! I guess since I've read so much on the topic I want to see.
Broadheads will definitely tell me if I'm having flight problems so I guess that is the next step. I have some great 150 grain heads and will be shooting them real soon.
Thanks,
Josh
Sounds like you are fine to me Josh. I don't worry about the nocks much myself. Where the arrows hit on my target can change where the nocks go at times. So long as the arrows are grouping well and you are getting good flight, put some broadheads on and see what you get.
No Josh, You done good. "The things that make me think the arrows are spined right are because they fly into the target straight with fletching and I don't see wild flight with normal shooting. I seem to get good flight with a fletched arrow..."
With fletching even poorly spined shafts will/can appear to fly well. If you can "see" bad flight with fletched shafts, the tuning issues are REAL bad! Assuming everything is good because you can't "see" any problem is like sticking your head in the sand. Only bare shafts or wide broadheads will show you problems exist. Good tuning doesn't stop us from missing, it stops us from missing as far. :) ......O.L.
I definitely don't stick my head in the sand when problems arise...I'm they type of person that tinkers with a good reload to see if I can make it better. This is a reload that will shoot 5 into a quarter @ 100 yards, my wife thinks I'm nuts. I keep telling her that ya never know when your going to find that dime reload (anyone ever cut a grain of powder in have to get an exact load weight?) Yes I'm a bit of a rifle looney!
So with all that said what is my fix for the nock high? Do I keep going up or do I add some shelf material? I shoot split finger and anchor with my first finger in the corner of my mouth. I don't want to change my anchor but I'd try it if it would help.
Left and right I'm good to go...I figure if I put some of my Snuffers on the front of the arrows I'd find a lot out, they sharpen easy so I don't mind.
Josh
Josh, "This is a reload that will shoot 5 into a quarter @ 100 yards, my wife thinks I'm nuts. I keep telling her that ya never know when your going to find that dime reload (anyone ever cut a grain of powder in have to get an exact load weight?) Yes I'm a bit of a rifle looney!
So with all that said what is my fix for the nock high?"
When you get those 5 shots in a quarter do you pay any attention if the tail of the bullets are high?? No, you look at the groups don't you. That's what you do with arrows. If you have tuning problems bare shafts or wide broadheads will NOT group with fletched field point shafts and the relationship between them tells you what is wrong.
Your form has NOTHING to do with tuning but form will cause a shaft to "kick", that's why you can't trust it for tuning purposes nor can you fix it with tuning techniques.
Lets look at 2 different archers, one a very good shot the other has poor form and assume both their equipment is perfectly tuned. They both shoot 6 fletched field tips at a spot. The good shot shoots a 3" group around that spot, the poor archer shoots a 12" group. Now have them shoot 3 fletched field tips and 3 matched weight fletched wide broadheads. Same 3" and 12" groups centered around the spot.
Now hand them both untuned equipment. The good shot shoots a 4-5" group with maybe a flyer occasionally with the field tips. The poor archer shoots an 18" group... Now inject the 3 field tips and 3 broadheads. The good shot gets all 3 of the field tips in the same 4-5" group but the broadheads all group left of the field tips....His arrows are too stiff if he's right handed. The poor shot scatters the 3 field tips 18" around the spot and he misses the target completly to the left.
Weak would go right and high or low is nock point.
Bare shafts would do exactly the same thing as the broadheads.
Their "form" has nothing to do with how well their bows are tuned, all it does is makes their groups bigger or smaller.
Well tuned equipment will shoot bare shafdts or wide broadheads in the same group with fletched field tips. Poorly tuned gear will still shoot around the spot with fletched field tips but broadheads or bare shafts will group "somewhere else" depending on what's wrong with them.
Go back to the good shot with good tuning and have him shoot 3 fletched with 3 bareshafts and he shoots a 6" group at 60 yards but the bare shafts are "nock high"...Does he care? No...Shaft angle means nothing and the best shooters in the world can't shoot a bare shaft "straight" most of the time and if they do it's more luck then skill.
"So with all that said what is my fix for the nock high?"
Ignore it! Good chance it's not a tuning problem at all and will drive you nuts trying to fix it. Use the planning method to know for sure :) ....O.L.
O.L. Adcock,
You are awesome...great analogy! My best group at 100 yards with one of my rifle is .362" 5 shots...I to be honest didn't care if they went in backwards the group was small. :readit: :knothead:
I will get the broadheads out and test some things out. I'll also shoot some more with the all the above recommendations.
Thanks again for all your help...and to all the others that help daily on this site. It is very much appreciated!!!
Josh
Oh no biggy but I'd like to shoot whoever started that shaft angle stuff. Let me give you a couple of real life examples.
Awhile back I set up a dozen arrows by "eyeball" and was shooting narrow broadheads mixed in with my field tips. They were shooting great or so I thought but about 1 out of every 5 of the broadheads would drift off to the right. I checked to see if it was the same arrow and it wasn't. I dismissed it as "me" doing something with my release. After a few months I was going to go bear hunting and I like a wider head on bears so I switched over to Snuffers. WTFO! They were all grouping right of my field tips indicating weak. I dropped down one weight size and bingo....All grouping together and my occasional "flyers" went away.....Little things make a big difference! What chaps my butt is all those months my groups were bigger then they should have been and I'd been "missing" thinking it was me when it was a tuning error all along, just because I was too lazy to have done it right to start with.
Juli has been shooting all summer and had gone through several bunches of arrows I had laying around and settled on one set she was shooting very well with. Again after several months practicing and the anticipation of bear season, I put some broadheads on for her. OOPS....Indicating weak...She had 3" of extra shaft so I cut off 1/2", try agin...Better but not perfect....Cut some more....One more cut and they were perfect. Now she'll be out shooting and come running in, "look at my group", and you can grab all the shafts with one hand. Poor girl, she was fighting poor tuning all this time and her success and enjoyment went sky high just by putting a little time into it. It's not hard or difficult nor does it have to be confusing as long as we're looking at what's relevent......O.L.
OL,
I hope there's not many wheelie boys that read this site, You just told them my secret to beating them at 3D broadhead shoots. I enjoy seeing them constantly fidget with their sites trying to correct a spine problem. Their lighter, faster, is better belief gets them in trouble when they suddenly put on the broadheads and are either under or over spined. It's a good thing (for me) that the majority of them don't seem to get this one fine point. I say let'em keep fidgeting with their sites. :knothead:
Bawana, You got that right! Part of the reason we've done so well in the flight world is most folks "think" they know how to tune a bow but most don't have a first hand clue, only following and parroting misleading info passed on by those that should know better. The planning method works just as well if not better with compounds. Many resort to tiny broadheads and or mechanicals cause they can't get fixed blades to "fly" only because they don't know how to tune the bow or don't want to be bothered with anything requireing knowledge or effort. Some of us in the traditional world follow the same mentality with narrow broadheads and big fletching. Our equipment is "simple" but that shouldn't be confused with "easy"......O.L.
Alright- after reading the posts- I want to get this straight-
I'm shooting a bob lee hunter- 62" 51#@28". I'm drawing it to 30.5", currently shooting beman classic 500s with 75 grain tipped inserts, and 125 grain razorcaps. I too just installed a new string- brace height is 7 3/4". I am going to bareshaft tonight with the 500s, a 400, and a legacy 2117.
SO- grouped right= to weak, left= to stiff
high= nock to low, low=nock to high.
I have got this straight?
Also- to add one thing- I just switched to a tab after using damascus gloves for years, my shooting has improved enough for me to consider it a good change. My focus thought used to be pick a spot- but I have since added a small sticker to my top limb that says- SEE THE SHOT.
I now visualize my arrow flight and see it mentally dissapear through my target while I am drawing. This has helped me a bunch to tighten my groups.
OL, I want to thank you and others for having the patience with us as beginners. I know I have benefited from your advice and now have the joy of good arrow flight.
Oh no biggy Snag, just glad things has calmed down enough to sit down here once in awhile thou I shouldn't be!
DRR324, Are you rt handed or left? Makes a difference since lefts and rights will be reversed. What you wrote is correct for a left handed shooter, not a right handed. Don't know what "spine" some of those carbons really are but based on your draw weight and length you need something on the 65-70lb range as a starting point and 70-75 if you want heavier points for a higher FOC.
Next PICK A SHAFT and tune it! Don't try this one and that one and try to compare and make sense of what they are doing. The biggest key to tuning is only change 1 variable at a time and evaluate the results. Going from a 2117 to say a 500 carbon tells you nothing, you've changed at least 4 things, spine, diameter (centershot), mass weight, and nock point. If you see differences you'll have no idea what caused what. Here is a tuning page without any commercial BS: http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
Keep in mind you can tune the bow to the arrows instead of tuning the arrows to the bow. For example you find out your arrows are a touch weak, just building out your side plate 1/64" makes a HUGE difference in the spine required. Of course the arrow makers would much prefer you buy stiffer shafts! :)
If you are going to hunt/shoot BH's, no need to bare shaft, you can do it with broadheads of the same weight but they need to be wider then Razorcaps. Once tuned you can shoot any broadhead you desire of the same weight without having to retune.
"Also- to add one thing- I just switched to a tab after using damascus gloves for years, my shooting has improved enough for me to consider it a good change."
Good move, did that 30 years ago after being told I'd shoot better with a tab by everyone who was kicking my butt...They were correct. I shoot a modified PacTab.....O.L.
Josh, I'm probably going to get hammered for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway. You don't shoot your arrows at stumps, targets, or game without fletching do you? You say your arrows are flying well & you are hitting where you look when you concetrate. I'd not make it more difficult than it is & put on my broadheads & see how they fly. Then if they aren't flying well, I'd try tuning with the fletching on, that's the way you are going to shoot them anyway. Thanks Frank
OL, I'm right handed. I'll check out the website you listed. I was messing with the different shafts this weekend trying the razorcaps. I've been shooting Magnus stinger SS heads for the last 2 years. They preformed ok- but really wanted to give the razorcaps a try.
I noticed when I shot the 400s with the caps- they flew well at 30 yards- but were hitting to the right about 3-4 inches of where I wanted. The 500s (weaker shafts) were tailing around a touch and hitting kinda all over- didn't shoot them a bunch- just about 6 shots each. I'm leaning toward the 400s for the extra weight and stiffness. I do have a few 150 grain snuffers- but nothing bigger than my razorcaps in 125. My stingers are 100 grain. I'll check out the website and will have to do some testing this weekend, daughter has volleyball tonight...
Dave
Frank, no hammering...Just tell us how you KNOW they aren't flying well without a refference? Fletched field tips are the refference, wide bh's or bareshaft are what's needed to compare to the refference.
Problems you can "see" are HUGE, and problems you can't see are causeing misses that could be avoided with a little effort. To take your thinking one step further, shoot mechancicals or move your sight pins...Problems gone or at least under the rug.
What ever bareshafts or wide Bh's are doing, your field points or narrow bh's are doing also, you just can't see it.
Good tuning is needed most in 2 situations, one is long range accuracy..Ok, I never shoot over say 20 yards...The other is close range on. A poorly tuned arrow will penertate deeper at 20 yards then it will a 5...Assuming you hit it to start with. Anyone ever broke wood shafts trying to bare shaft?? And then slapped fleching on them and called it good? They broke cause they were WAY off..O.L.
OL,
Thanks for the info- I printed your tuning pages and will have them at home for my tuning process.
I'll let you know the outcome sometime this weekend.
Dave
QuoteOriginally posted by snag:
OL, I want to thank you and others for having the patience with us as beginners. I know I have benefited from your advice and now have the joy of good arrow flight.
Second the above statement... :thumbsup:
Well, I completed a little testing last night. Went to my local archery store before the volleyball game. Shooting 20 yard indoor range- my 400 shafts with 125 grain tips were hitting about 3-4" from the orange spot I was shooting at with a bit of whip to the tail during flight. I then screwed a 145 grain tip on and- voila- was hitting the 2" orange spot consistently with very good flight. The bare shaft flew very straight and I believe I am tuned in...thanks for the advice OL, and others. I am going to buy some of the razorcap 150 ferrules (sp) and give them the test with my 4 fletched shafts.
Good job! :) ...Keep in mind the BH's may still show some problems, maybe not. Doing this at 20 yards is still "course tuning" but is probably adaquate for most folks. Backing up to as far away as a person can shoot a group gets to the fine tuning part. Even if the "group" is just keeping arrows on the bale! :) ....O.L.
I'll be doing some longer range testing this weekend. I cleaned 4 shafts last night to refletch and will be using them to test. I did move my "rest" back just a bit to line it up with my grip point on the riser. I build up a small hump with leather and moleskin. I was getting really good flight with my fletched arrows last night and the 145 tips. Only got to shoot a dozen- had the lights on and was told only idiots shoot in the dark..... I told her I couldn't be an idiot- I had the lights on! ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by DRR324:
Only got to shoot a dozen- had the lights on and was told only idiots shoot in the dark..... I told her I couldn't be an idiot- I had the lights on! ;)
I must be an idiot then to...I work from 4 pm to 12:30 am and shoot when I get home (I take care of our two children during the day). I have lights on my garage and a flood light but that's it. I'm back in the darkness but the target is visible, I shoot this way 5 nights a week or more. Figure it helps with my low light shooting for hunting season. Wife also thinks I'm nuts but understands this is when I can be alone to concentrate on the task at hand.
Funny today I was out shooting (in the light) and the dots seemed sooooo much clearer, took a nock off an arrow and the groups were very small, smaller than I shoot at night. Daughter started full day school (1st grade) today and my son starts preschool next week so I will be able to shoot more during the daylight hours. Might improve some!
Josh
I've been using O.L.'s method exactly as described on his website for years and it's worked perfect for me.
O.L., got a question for ya - can you explain WHAT causes a stiff bareshaft to hit left and vice-versa? I just can't visualize why they go the way they do...
Stiff one will hit left because it flexes less at the shot thus veering while the weak will go right because over flex and not recovering from paradox enough to go straight.
Stiff will come off the string pointing \\ while a weak will point this way /, but hopefully not that severely lol.
Hey Tom, vermonster13 got it pretty close. It's more akin to accustics then any other branch of physics. Any given arrow will vibrate/oscilate at 1 frequency just like a guitar string. We have to "time" those oscillations to occure at the correct time in the power stroke. During those oscilations there are 2 spots a few inches from each end that do not move while the ends and middle wiggle their butts off. Those are called "nodes"...Those nodes start out aligned in the direction the arrow is pointed, if those nodes are still aligned in the same direction as the arrow leaves the string, the arrow goes straight, if not it veers off inline with those nodes. Easton has some good info on that if you feel like digging.
Just like the guitar string we can change the frequency (timing) by changing stiffness (tension), diameter, length, and mass distribution. How hard we "pluck it" has no effect on the frequency, any given arrow goes through those oscilations at the same speed no matter what poundage bow we shoot it out of unles we change one of those factors above. Ever stood off to the side and listened to someone shoot an aluminum shaft with a loose point? That rattle is paradox you are hearing. Ever wonder why many think tapered shafts shoot so well...Tapered things don't "ring" as well as parallel things. Some see a "kick" and call it paradox..It's not..You can't "see" paradox...Any wobble seen is from poor tuning or form....O.L.
QuoteOriginally posted by O.L. Adcock:
...Those nodes start out aligned in the direction the arrow is pointed, if those nodes are still aligned in the same direction as the arrow leaves the string, the arrow goes straight, if not it veers off inline with those nodes.
Aha! That's right, the nodes get misaligned because the bowstring is wiggling back and forth left and right as it travels towards the belly of the bow...from sliding off the fingertips which place it initially misaligned from center(to the left for a RH shooter). We want that "wiggle" to be in the midline when it leaves the nock.
Yep...Want a tuning challenge, try a bow dead centershot with a 14" arrow with an 18" power stroke with arrows too fragile to shoot into a bale/target and you can't see in flight! I've had to resort to paper tuning and never realized how important/critical pressure from you bow hand is. I can make the arrows kick any direction I want just from bow hand pressure. Unfortunatly changes in bow hand position I can't detect makes them kick also..It'll drive you nuts....O.L.