Consider yourselves a good enough shot that you can truely tell the differance between an equipment problem,and a shooting problem.
Here are a few examples.....
You have a dozen arrows,all identical with 125gr. field points,but 1 arrow has a 145gr. point mistakingly put on.....
You have a dozen cedar arrows spined 50-55# except unknowingly 1 shaft actualy spines 60-65#.....
How consistant is your release????? REALLY????? can you honestly tell if it is the arrow.....Or is it YOU?????
I do not bare shaft my arrows.Personaly I think it's useless and a waste of time.(just MY opinion though)Arrows were made to be shot with feathers on them. I count on my fletching to stabilize my arrows and make them fly as straight as I can shoot them. I use 5 1/2" high shield feathers with an 11 degree helical,I never have a problem with my 2 blade broadheads windplaning.My release is at times inconsistant,and I usualy shoot a mixture of mis-matched arrows.However,as "instictive archers" I believe that the "goal" is not nessecarily "tight groups" but being able to consistantly hit our target(say a pie plate) EVERY time at any range,from 3 yards to 30 yards and anywhere in between.
Ron LaClair said "Instinctive shooting is like throwing a ball,or throwing a stone"
Well not every stone weighs the same,and we don't use the same amount of strength to throw every stone.....but some folks are pretty darn good at hitting what they're looking at with a rock!!!!!
I just think some times we make things more difficult than they need to be.....
Howdy Chuck, I was playing around with some diff. tips just yesterday and at 15-20 yds I cant tell the difference. I do bareshaft so spine would be pretty apparent, but I'm happy with my release which just proves I don't know any better.
Enough of this talking stuff... Are we gonna get to hunt this year or what? Hope tho see you soon.
Nathan
I totally agree with you.
When I make arrows I spine and weight them pretty closely, but I'm sure that the balance of people they go to would never know the difference if the standards were much farther apart.
When I see people saying that their arrows shoot left, there is sometimes a little imp in my ear whispering, "aim further right."
Telling the difference between an arrow issue and a shooter issue is not always an easy task.
Guy
SOON Nathan!!!!!!!!!! :pray:
I can tell the difference. Especially in having the correct arrow spine.
So zilla, (playing the devils advocate here)
EVERY one of your arrows is in the X ring EVERY time?????
Personaly,Sometimes I shoot alittle left.....sometimes alittle right.....little high,little low.....It would take me a LONG time to figure out that one particular arrow was not "just right"
At 30yds bareshaft 3 against 3 fletched and you will be able to tell on a nice BIG target. Even if you are a bad shot, you should be able to tell. I say this because your inconsistent pattern will continue to be inconsistent, but either to the left or right. If the spine is good you will continue to be inconsistent right in the middle! Then you can focus on nock point up and down after that.
You may still be a terrible shot, but at least you will be iinconsistent with well tuned equiptment!!! :knothead:
-Charlie
OK,Let me clear things up. I'm not talking about a batch of arrows being differant,I'm talking about one individual arrow being differant from the rest. How many of you can pick that one arrow out of the bunch right away?????
(and I'm sure there are some really good shooters who can,I'm just trying to figure out how many shoot good enough to notice the differance RIGHT AWAY.)
Chuck...I can if I miss a pie plate it has to be the arrow or tunning it could not be me LOL
......ED ;)
Hi Chuck! Does Snow Dancin' have anything to do with missin' a target? ;)
... mike ...
If an arrow is 20#s over or under spined for my bow I will definitely tell the difference, if it is a diffrent weight say 50 grains or so I could nopt tell the difference. I think a lot of people can tell the difference if it is a spine issue. I know if I change point weight by 50 grains I can tell the difference for sure. To answer your last question I would say Yes I notice a difference right away in a fairly big spine change, not that I shoot that well because i could do it left handed and I am a righty. I often hear people say the native americans did not care about spine and weight and all that but they did, they would shoot a big bunch of arrows and than choose from them the ones that flew and shot best for them, so in a round a bout way they were acheiving the same as modern day archers just doing it less scientifically. I have to disagree with ya, my bows are tuned to shoot a specifically spined arrow and I shoot both wood and carbon and my arrows are tuned to shoot well out of my bows and depending on what is different from arrow to arrow I will be able to tell the difference in flight and the way I shoot. Shawn
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
So zilla, (playing the devils advocate here)
EVERY one of your arrows is in the X ring EVERY time?????
Personaly,Sometimes I shoot alittle left.....sometimes alittle right.....little high,little low.....It would take me a LONG time to figure out that one particular arrow was not "just right"
Not even... But you miss my point.
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
OK,Let me clear things up. I'm not talking about a batch of arrows being differant,I'm talking about one individual arrow being differant from the rest. How many of you can pick that one arrow out of the bunch right away?????
(and I'm sure there are some really good shooters who can,I'm just trying to figure out how many shoot good enough to notice the differance RIGHT AWAY.)
Now that we have a paramter, it depends on How different the arrow is. If I suspect there is one arrow that is flying different, then I put numbers on em using those small Brady markers I use at work for identifying wires. So #3 goes left all the time and the rest are bulls eyes. Now consider if you are shooting woods, alum or carbon.
I definitely could tell the difference in spine...'course I don't use big honkin' 5.5" feathers either :) and I'd like to think that I could tell the difference in 50 grains of weight, but not likely at 20yrds...now 35, that would be a different story. every year at hunting season I start out with about eight arrows with broad heads, and there have been years when I've culled a few of them because they just didn't shoot with the others.
OK here's another one.....
I have a bunch of 125 gr. Zwickey Eskimos that I shoot off my wood arrows.....Now I have a bunch of 2018's that I want to hunt with.....I have been shooting them with a 125 gr. field point. I take the Zwickeys and glue in a 10gr. aluminium short adapter for a total BH weight of 135gr. But can you REALLY tell the differance between the 125gr. field point and the Zwickey with the adapter?????
Not me my friend... You surpassed my shooting abilities long before you got to a 10 gr. difference. 50gr. yes, 10gr. no!!
As I said before,I usualy shoot a bunch of mis-matched arrows.....
That does not mean that they are not carefully made though. For years I have bought my custom arrows from Joe Skipp. Joe would weigh all of the shafts and try to pick 6 or 12 that were all between 10grs.
However,one dozen arrows may weigh between 510-520grs. while another dozen may weigh 540-550grs. Yet they all seem to fly where I shoot them.They may not "group" as well as I would like they're all in the "kill-zone" and that's what matters most.
I've picked out bad or different arrows, but not immediately but from several shots. That may be why you are not getting as tight of groups as you would like, as your arrows are mismatched.
Weight doesn't seem to effect things too much at the relative short ranges I shoot but different spine will show up immediately.
If your arrows are as close as you can get them then you will know it's you as you have taken any doubts from the arrows.
I shoot carbon arrows now, but used wood for a long time.
I remember that there could be large differences in weight between the wood arrows, and I could not tell the difference at hunting ranges.(15-20 yds). Also, as long as the wood arrows were not close to being underspined, broadhead weight differences didn`t matter either. The wood arrows always seemed to fly where I wanted.
I have found carbon arrows to be much more fussy
about broadhead weight, and differences in total arrow weight become easier for me to see. In addition, I have found carbon to be much less forgiving of form errors.
heres one i have hunting buddy that does not worry with tuning--he shoots a 65# bow 720gr arrow with ww head an i cant remember the last time when he had a pass through on a deer, not shoulders i mean broad side good rib lung an heart shots. i`m shooting 55# bow 500gr arrow that is tuned an always have a exit hole. you tell me??? i think his arrow is so out of tune it robbing his energy, with that weight an poundage it should be sticking in the ground on any shot short of shoulder. i not just talking about a couple deer either i would say probably about 20 or so in last couple yrs.so
you do what you want, but i`ll tune mind the best i can cuz i like the results an my groups are tighter . This week i`m talking him in to bare shafting one of the arrow`s he been shooting-that will tell the tail we hope
The differences you offer in your initial question are rather small, 20 grains in weight and 10 grains in spine. I know that most folks aren't good enough to detect that difference, myself included, and I'm a pretty good shot, or at least used to be, and have been at this more than 45 years.
I won't argue that there is one spine/weight combination that is optimal for a given bow, but what many overlook is that most bows will shoot a fairly large range of spines and weights quite well.
Most of the bows I shoot will handle 20# plus difference in spine with little trouble. I.e., my 55# bows will shoot my woodies of 55-75# equally well. And most of them are not cut to center. I also shoot arrows of different weights, but most are within 20 grains. A 50 grain difference becomes noticeable beyond 20 yards, but again, most couldn't tell the difference on shots closer than that unless they were shooting very light bows.
An arrow that is truly mismatched in terms of weight, spine, straightness, etc. is fairly easy to detect, however.
I go through my "flyers" three times.. One off shot could be my form; but not three or more times. I set the flyers aside and shot only those until I KNOW what is going on....
JDS III
My arrows are all numbered at the nock. They are numbered by their consitancy.
So, number 1 and 2 always fly the best. 3 through 5, they all fly good, but 1 and 2 just seem right.
I do this for each 1/2 doz. I carry. Also, 6 and sometimes 5, will have a diff broadhead on them for other reasons.
All my bows shoot the same spined arrows, 60/65 and I make them.
When I make up a new set of 6, I will take them outback and start shooting. The one or ones that do not go where I think they should, I put to the side. I then go back and shoot them again a couple times. If after that they are grouping, I number them 5 and 6. If they consistantly fly wrong, which some do because of a something, they get canned.
I had one arrow always flying high from every yardage. I marked it after the second time (I cut off the tab on the nock) and it was the only flyer. It wasn't straight. I only shoot wood arrows that I make and while I'm not an all X-ring shooter it doesn't take more than a few shots to know if I have an arrow problem. First time it could be me so I shoot again. next time it might or might not be me and the third time it is the arrow.
My comfort zone is 18 yards and under and I usually can't tell the difference between an arrow with a 125 tip and one with a 145 tip. That difference can only be seen when I back up to 30-40 yards to check my form. The heavier tip arrows shoot a little lower.
I would be able to tell if one arrow was spined 2 steps to heavy it would really fly left much further than the rest of the arrows. I tried it a couple weeks back with some 2117 and 125 grain tips out of my 53#er. However I also tried some 145 grain heads mixed in with 125's and I could not tell the difference. So I guess the answer atleast for me is YES and NO!!
I should also add that at 10 yards shooting a 54# bow with any arrow weighing 350-650 grains with a sharp BH, I will notice tye diffence but still kill the deer. Shawn
i number my arrows so when one flys off i can tell if me or the arrow
I do not understand how you can be satisfied with arrows that do not group well. You should be able to pull any arrow out of your quiver and expect it to perform like the others.
They do not have to look the same, have the same points, or be made of the same material, but they should fly the same. Somebody above referenced native populations and they are exactly right. They had what looked like (key point) mismatched arrows, but they were chosen from hundreds as the best performers from their bows.
Your goal should not be to put an arrow into the kill zone. Your goal should be to put an arrow into the part of the kill zone that you are trying to hit. Bare shafting arrows gets you closer to that objective from the equipment end of the equation. The form and shooting is up to you.
I make my arrows with sourwood shoots or cane and cut them to 29" for my 26" draw. My group of practice arrows are about half and half and their physical weights run between 550gr and 650gr. I check spine while making them but only to keep it in the ballpark. At my hunting range I can't tell the difference. I usually don't shoot for tight groups but shoot a single arrow at an invisible spots on the target butt or 3D deer. Generally speaking I can put any one of my arrows in the kill zone of a 3D target out to 15 yards either from an elevated stand or the ground, standing, kneeling or sitting on the ground. For me, that is good enough shooting.
My hunting arrows this year are 6 hill cane (Arundianria appalachianna)arrows I collected along my driveway with 6 different stone points(made by 5 different friends) and 2 different styles of tied on turkey feather 2 feather fletching ...all between 551gr and 648gr. I feel quite confident that if the opportunity presents itself my set up(and I) will get the job done.
There is a difference between having to drive tacks with a bow and arrow and being able to put a single arrow into the kill zone of an animal. For me the latter is good enough and more important. Pat
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
Consider yourselves a good enough shot that you can truely tell the differance between an equipment problem,and a shooting problem.
How consistant is your release????? REALLY????? can you honestly tell if it is the arrow.....Or is it YOU?????
I just think some times we make things more difficult than they need to be.....
I spend quite a bit of time tuning my bow and arrows, because I realize that I'm probably
not a good enough shot to tell the difference.
I take the "arrow" part out of the equation. That way, when I make a bad shot, I know it's me.
Having confidence in your equipment set-up allows you to make aiming/shooting adjustments based on what happened with the shot, not with which arrow you just shot.
I shoot "loonyums" and occasionally carbon for just that reason. Consistency in spine and weight allows me to shoot with confidence, once I know which particular arrow set-up works best for a certain bow.
As far as making it difficult, well, that's part of the fun... :jumper: ...and what's even more fun, is the end result of seeing a ball of feathers spinning downrange, hitting right where you wanted it to.
Some folks can't shoot consistent groups with the best matched arrows in the world....I've seen it!
Some folks can't make the "first arrow" count consistently, with the best matched arrows in the world....I've seen it!
They just don't have the shooting ability to tell the difference...period!
Knowingly shooting mis-matched arrows IMHO is ridiculous! How are your "instincts", or "your gap", gonna work if you're shooting arrows that will not shoot in the same place right off the bat!
Not bare shafting even though you know it'll help is ridiculous! Again,IMHO....
"Make it more difficult"......if you're not hitting what you want,wouldn't some extra effort be worth it?
It's all about what how much you want to dedicate yourself to what you're doing. Some guys are happy getting a shot and killing a spike buck every 10yrs. Some guys could kill 10 spikes a year if they chose too and didn't pass them up!
Some people are happy being mediocre at best, some strive to be the best they can be.....most fall someplace between.....
Those differences in weight and spine are not different enough to tell anything for me.
I suppose if I were to limit my shots on deer size game to 10-15yrds it wouldn't make much difference in the weight of my arrows..although I still think spine would.
BUT, even if I did limit myself to that distance, I personally would still want all my arrows the same spine, very close in weight and tuned to the bow to the best of my ability. I mean after all, I'm out to kill something and I can only do so much with the human factor, but equipment is a different story. I want ALL my arrows flying to the same spot and as straight as can be.
My squirrel arrows are wood...even so, they are all within 5 lbs of spine and ten grains of weight of each other. and if I come across a couple that don't fly with the others...well they get pushed into the ground and used as targets, nothing like seeing an arrow that's sticking straight up out of the ground get busted in half by an ace hex head :thumbsup: try doing that with a bunch of mish matched arrows and tell me how many shots it takes to break that culled arrow
I would not hunt without knowing that every arrow in my quiver will shoot where I aim it. It's a matter of personal pride and respect for the game.
At hunting range I know that I can get away with significant variation in spine and weight and still hit the target, but that doesn't mean I will hunt with arrows that are not capable of shooting perfectly if I do my part.