Trad Gang

I have been pondering a certain question that i thought i would run by those more experienced.
Question:
What in your experience kills faster, a double lung shot, or a heart shot.

I read somewhere that the national average for tracking whitetail deer is 40 yards, but why is that? is it due to the animal dying from a heart shot or is it due to the animal being unable to breathe and so lays down and then dies after suffocation and trauma?

Ok so thats the questions, i know it may seem a stupid question, i mean heck they will both get the job done, i was just wondering if there was a best target of choice.


P.

Never studied it too hard but I will say that I have had both the Heart-shot and dbl-lung shot produce similar patterns.  Both down in 20 to 30 yards.  My last whitetail that I took with Training wheels (7 years ago) was a perfect shot at 20 yards and couldn't have hit the heart better if I walked out and inserted by hand.  That buck went about 60 yards on me. In fact, I thought at first I had missed until I saw the arrow buried in the dirt on the opposite side.  Best information I have for you.

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Longbow: ACS-CX 58@28, GT5575 Traditionals, 2-blade Magnus, 530gr. total weight.

hypovolemic(sp) shock is what kills em, lack of blood/oxygen reaching the brain due to low blood pressure. IMO one kills just as quick as the other.

I've heard where cutting the pulmonary veins which carry oxygenated blood to the left ventricle is a real show-stopper, the BP drops to zero and the deer almost drops over dead, on the spot.

Maybe somebody with a bit more knowledge can add to this, I'm going by memory...

I read an article by a veterinarian several years ago that said that either was quite lethal, but the double lung was slightly faster.

His idea was that a heart shot didn't bleed out quite as fast due to the adrenalin rush.  Whereas the double lung hit bleeds out the pulmonary vein like Old York posted resulting in faster loss of blood pressure.  

In practice, I doubt that it matters at all.  The only consideration being that the lungs are a bigger target and certainly no less lethal.

Ok, I was reading the thread and the only advice i have is that the pulmonary veins do not carry oxygenated blood to the left ventricles but to the left atrium, the atrium then pumps it into the left ventricle... sorry to much time at college to let it pass.... good day

Most of the deer I've heart shot make the average go up! Not because they die slower, but they're normally in a panic stricken dead run immediately. It's like they sense something is very wrong and they're gonna get the heck outta there. I've had several run into trees on their death sprint.

IN contrast, I have had a score of double lung hits who actually go back to feeding. They don't even know they're hit! If they do run off, 30-40 yards is tops. To go back to earlier threads, that's why I prefer the pure boradside shot. Double lung hits.

My experience is similar to Biggies. Also trapperdave is correct in the what kills assessment. A wounded heart can still pump some blood, punctured lungs don't deliver any oxygen. Like said above, doesn't hurt that the lungs are a much bigger target either.

I've heard a heart shot deer can cover some ground due to adrenalin.  I never had a pure heart shot, always a heart lung combo.  My experience is a double lung shot will put them down very quickly though.

Back in the 80's I hit a deer right throught the top of the heart. There was a large vein there and the broadhead  hit it perfect center. It also got part of the heart. The head was a Zwickey Eskimoe w/bleeders.  Deer went 20 yards max and keeled over full stride. I was in a cut hay field and there was a line of blood all the way to the carcass that could be seen in the stubble.

My experience is the same as Biggie's.  Keep in mind, too, that it's pretty easy to hit the lungs without hitting the heart, but given that the front of the lungs sort of surround the heart, a heart shot often catches a piece of the lungs as well.

I believe heart shots take longer, or the trail is longer, than lung shot deer.

I'll buy Biggie's argument

tuff call

first bow buck I shot thru the heart and he did the death run on impact but only cover 50 yrds..time lapse pretty dang quick

shot another thru the heart from close range the arrow hit the ground like nothing was there making the buck jump...he did the head bob looking at my arrow that had just passed thru his heart than tensed up and fell over

shot another thru the lungs that had no clue of anything walked on by never missed a beat when I shot....stopped a few steps away got weak kneed and fell over

shoot them thru the lungs when they just exhaled and watch how fast the fall over...most likely you'll see it

What Biggie said is what I've noticed.  Most of my heart-shot animals have scalded out of there.  Depending on other factors--did they see me, did I also hit a rib or offside shoulder, etc.--my average lung shot recovery is a bit shorter, some surely due to the fact that they didn't seem to detect any danger.

I've killed 2 deer via a heart shot - neither went more than 40 yards, if that. I've had double-lunged animals go 200 yards.

ive also heard the double lung is faster, ive heard of animals taking hours to die after a heart shot.  these were large animals though, elk and moose.  maybe it wasnt a great heart shot but if you get them in the lungs then they will suffocate irregardless.

In my experience heart shots travel further.  Doulbe lung for me.

look at it this way.

Double lung = both lungs
Heart shot = one or both lungs & the Heart
Liver shot = liver or liver & lung

All 3 shots kill the same, but throw in adrenaline rush and a animal can still fun to the next county.

The Heart shot IMAO would be the top shot for a Bow, cutting both lungs means no oxygen & cutting the Heart means no blood. These 2 things being taken out will take them down quickly, if the game is relaxed and not pushed.

I'm sure the heart shot kills faster but sometimes it is accompanied by a very frantic run,so it may travel as far as a lung hit.Occasionally,one may even make it farther.

double lung for me also.I have shot them double lung they ran 15yds stopped an looked back to see what just stung them. then stumbled a few steps and fell over. Heart shot run like they were on fire until they crash

I have had heart shot deer run 180 yards; I have also had a heart shot deer run a hundred yards;and start to feed; and one mounted a doe; then fall over dead. I have heart shot elk; that literally stumbled sideways and fell over dead.
It seems like the heart shot produces adrenaline; and they can cover ground; but I suspect taking the veins off the top of it keeps oxygen from getting to the brain - which drops them like fast.
 lung shot deer I figure will go 60 yards tops.
I have shot for both the heart and the lungs; and I think shooting for the lungs is a better way to go; as a low shot that would take out the lungs; could miss the heart altogether.

 Double lung hit; and they do down fast !

My experience also mirrors Biggies. My heart shot deer blew out of there like their arses were on fire. I've had lung shot deer bolt also but the heart shot ones appear to be in real panic.
The double lung hit causes both lungs to collapse immediately.(bilateral pneumothorax) Think of two baloons having an arrow through them. No oxygen and the deer suffocates and dies quickly along with massive blood loss.(hemorragic shock) A deer must lose 1/3 of it's blood volume to die.
The lung area on an average deer is 8 to 10 inches in diameter and is a higher percentage shot than deliberately aiming the heart which is akin to trying to hit a tennis ball behind a picket fence when you consider that the heart is protected by ribs.
Finally, a deer running full tilt can cover up to 25 ft. per leap. Only six leaps could put the animal out to 50 yds before piling up. Just my 2c
(nut)

In my experience, the double lungs are the way to a much shorter blood trail than a heart shot.

I've shot a few animals in the heart (only because I shot low) and a bunch through both lungs.  The double lung is by far the best IMHO.  They go down fast and most often do not run.  The heart shot gets the "donkey kick" and then off they go like a scalded cat.

Mike

I heart shot a doe a couple of years ago,  she went on a death run and died within earshot.  As I tracked her I noticed that she didn't bleed, so I just went in the dirrection of the crash.  Had I not heard her crash I might not have been able to recover her in the thick brush.  My guess is that when the arrow cut her heart, it stopped beating and quit pumping blood resulting in no blood trail. I prefer lungs

dbl lung. only way to go sometimes they just stand there and think what the hell was that. and the rest is history.LOL!!!

Awesome advice guy's, i was thinking DBL lung only based on what seemed to be common sence, and since wild animals dont go into shock like we think it would make sence to hit them so they cant breathe. Everyone thank you so much for taking the time to mentor this newbie in the hunting field. I was just telling a friend of mine that i felt comfortible with my nerves and my shooting, but i was alittle iffy on the shot placement...now i feel very confident in the success of my first hunt. I'll keep ya'll posted on the results   :thumbsup:   ..with pic's of course......
  :D  

P.

Add to that,the fact that the heart is a much smaller target and is often shielded by the upper leg bone,especially on broadside animals.The lungs extend back behind the upper leg bone several inches.I'm never mad when I get a heart hit but I'm always aiming for double lung.

Paul, shoot em in the lungs. Like the other guys say its a shorter trail. Also one thing i do whick I know is not a new idea by any means. I guess I got this from a Barry Wensel dvd. Shoot bright fletching so you can see where you hit the deer and then decide how long you need to wait to track. I can tell some stories about gun hunters in my neck of the woods that shot a big buck down in the road and went right in to get him and guess what? never found . I know of at least 10 different cases. It's hard to stay calm and wait after the shot, but 30 to 60min will save you some time in the long run. Good hunting. hope you score. Don

I'm new to the Trad Gang here so might as well get my feet wet , the farthest I've had a double lung go was 60 yards , most being from 15 to 30 yards , I've had 1 heart only shot that went well over 100 yards

A friend of mine "heart" shot a deer yrs ago and finally put a finishing shot in it 6hrs later...he did indeed hit the heart as he thought but only clipped the lower tip.....sometimes what we think we hit isn't really

By the way a BH thru the tenderloins leaves a mess and the deer don't go far.....not from personal experiance but I have seem the results from others whom accidently hit there...less than 20 yrd recovery

I have not shot deer but have shot pigs and goats . Generally goats and pigs will cover a fair patch of ground with a double lung shot or a heart shot [ 50 to 100 yards ] . Like you folks say with deer , pigs and goats kick their back legs up and sprint for a bit with a heart muscle shot. Not knowing names of the arteries that come out the top of the heart they tend to pile up faster when the arteries that feed fresh blood are severed which also takes out lungs . Its a differant spot shaped like a issosilies triangle on each beast but when you hit it - a quick trot or a spin around and they are down .

Mind you a mate of mine shot a chital deer behind the shoulder , perfect height - hit it through the back legs , severed the femoral artery . Basically dead on the spot , you cant pick how an individual animal will react - some are just plain determined others give up .

the double lung shot ,to me, is the preferred shot. Never had a double lung shot travel more than 30 yards . 1 heartshot large billy( b'head had taken a lung as well) expired just as quick but at a full tilt run , travelled twice as far. Either shot is great, but double lung is what i shoot for. Ben

Whump Sez; A double lung shot is a short track only if you do not puncture the diaphram. If the animal is quartering to you only slightly and you puncture the dia. that animal can go 200yds. They cannot breath so the lungs fill up with blood much more slowly. If you get a square broad side shot you will get a very short recovery because the animal can expand and contract its lungs which opens and closes the cuts and causes a quick bleed out---not so if you puncture the dia. I have taken more than a few whitetails that I shot through from front to back and they traveled 80 to 200 yds---during the gutting process I have found both lungs punctured and the liver hit with an exit out by the family jewels and the blood trail was also very light. When you locate the animal there will be no blood in the nose at all. So if you think you have a double lung shot and you find little or no blood you have most likely punctured the diaphram so trail slowly and look for a very sparse blood trail. Hunt safe.   :goldtooth:

Either for me, but you oughta see em go down when hit in the Femoral Artery, happened to me once by accident, watched the deer go down in 40 yards !! No I don't recommend tryin it on purpose...

They seem to go down faster when you take the air out of them. We do need to show respect with this thread. We are talking about a life/ a gift..

My experience tells me that a deer can run farther w/o blood than they can w/o air.  I've seen a couple of deer shot through the heart and run spooked clear out of the county.  

The double lungers seldom make it out of the pasture.

Just my observations.  Lungs are also a much larger target than
the heart and less protected.  So, why shoot for the heart?????

I've had short, and seemingly longish trails with both dbl lung, and pure heart shots.....to me every hit, on every diff. animal can be have a different out come.

I will this though.....two of my biggest deer were hit so low that they had a single blade slice along the bottom (I'm talkin' just sliced the very bottom)of their hearts and neither of them made it over 60yds.......here's the biggest....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/024_21.jpg)


Here's one that hit the near lung and centered the heart.....he also made it about 60yds.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/10-29Buck026.jpg)


 hit for hit...they all seem to be a little different.....

I have taken many whitetails with a bow Both Heart and double lung shots are short trails but my heart shots have been the shortest 10 to 25 yards double lung about 20 to 40 yards my 2 cents worth

Well in retrospect I gotta mention something from Roy Marlow's book "Timeless Bowhunting" - he suggests to 'aim low' because when we miss, we tend to miss high.

So I'll stick with a heart shot and catch the bugger in both lungs when it jumps string/arrow. Seems a commonality through this thread is it depends on the critter and circumstances at that moment. And - NOT taking out the diaphram like Whump says might help broadcast fine blood droplets from exhalation.

Great info and advice from all of you, there does seem to be a trend in the DLB lung catagory for efficiency with good successes in the heart department as well. i've been looking at alot of Deer anatomy Pic's to really get a feel for where things are, and it does seem to be that the lungs are higher than i would have thought( more up in the rib cage) i feel very confident about my shot placement thanks to alittle bit of study. Again thank you all.

Guru, thanks for the pic's with your story very informative..and maybe those deer have alittle bit of NY in 'em, makes them too tough  :D  

Batman, Thanks for the advice, i probably wouldnt have thought of waiting that long, i have bright pink fletch (before i had seen eichler) so that should do the trick, ( got sick of losing them in the ivy  :bigsmyl:  ) if i can shoot half as good as you, i'll be in business.


Thanks again everyone, you have no idea what a help you have all been.


P.

I'd never intentionally shoot for the heart itself but instead the center of the lungs.  More room for error.  If you shoot for the heart and your arrow flies 2-3 inches low, you got brisket.  Aim for the center of the lungs and you can miss your target by 3 inches in any direction and still get lung.  

A little off subject but you did ask what was the best target.  Chad

One time several years ago a friend of mine and I each shot a deer, his in the heart and there was blood EVERYWHERE but the deer ran about 40 yards and died on the run, mine through the lungs went 20 yards and layed down looked like it was still alive when we found it, you decide....

I can`t say I recall a deer that was double-lunged
making it past about 80 yards, but I have heart shot them and followed well beyond 100 yards.

STKNSTRNG....looked like it was still alive? What does that mean?
If you double lunged it, it didn't live more than two minutes.

As far as blood, most of the deer I've heart shot didn't bleed at all or very little. It could be cause they run so fast, it's a mist in the air, or as some have said, it depends on what part of the heart you hit.

I know the original question was about a double lung or heart shot.  Not real sure how you can hit the heart without hitting the lungs, but that would be the shot I would go for.

But....there is another shot that will drop a deer much faster than either a double lung or heart shot........not that I am recommending it.  I just know from experience how lethal it is.

As mentioned by Swampbuck, and from personal experience a shot through the tenderloins will drop a deer in less than 10 yds.  The tenderloins are flush with blood as well as the fact that the main arteries that feed the hind quarters run through them.

You would never take a shot like that on purpose but if you hunt long enough with a bow it's bound to happen on a deer that bolts.  And when it does....I guarantee you WILL be impressed!

Brett

Uh.......scuse me but, I've taken alot of deer tenderloin out and have yet to see any evidence of any "main arteries" running thru them.
We talking about the same thing?

There are major arteries and veins running along the spine above the tenderloins. My guess is you clipped one of those.

Are you calling backstrapes, tenderloins? That is a butchers cut, The True tenderloins are the small one in between the hind legs, just under the spine. Inside the cavity of any game.

Yes, the really fast killer would be a spine shot or taking out the main artery that runs down the back legs.

QuoteOriginally posted by AdamH:
Either for me, but you oughta see em go down when hit in the Femoral Artery, happened to me once by accident, watched the deer go down in 40 yards !! No I don't recommend tryin it on purpose...

My first deer was an accident like this.  It jumped the sting, turned 90 degrees to the arrow and got hit in the femoral artery.  40 yards was about right.

Gentlemen....I'm talking about the 2 muscles that run just under the spine forward of the pelvis area.  Running just above those muscles and along the underside of the spine are 2 arteries that eventually branch out and become the femoral arteries that run down the hind legs.

A broadhead through the tenderloin will more than likely clip those arteries.  I know....because I've done it on not one....but several occassions.  Except for a spinal shot nothing will put a deer down faster than that shot.  It is no different than cutting ones throat with a knife.  ;)  

So pardon me if I was a little careless in my first description  :rolleyes:

If you are going to get specific....I've never had a spine shot that killed.  Yep...it sure does immobilize them....but they are still alive and require a follow up shot or having their throat cut.  Not so for the tenderloin shot.  Ten yards or less....and they're dead!

Brett

Not the back straps a deer will survive that hit easily the tenderlions are inside and yup both femoral's will most likely be hit

My very first bow kill was a doe thru the liver talk about a blood trail solid foot long squirts out both sides...she didn,t go far

I've broadside double lunged a number of deer and haven't noticed them dropping within 40 yards.  Usually an 80 to 100 yard sprint.  One large buck didn't leave a blood trail.  I knew where he was by the "HUFF,HUFF" sound he made just before he fell over.  But everything in a 4' high radius around him was covered in foamy blood at that spot.

Steertalker, just a suggestion...aim at the other end  :"-)

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
Steertalker, just a suggestion...aim at the other end  :"-)

lol thats funny.

i will defend steerstalker thou. the texas deer are really jumpy, once you let the arrow go god only know where you will hit.

i will agree that a double lung seems to put them down really quick and with a pass threw the deer just jump then walk off and die close buy. that is if the arrow goes out the other side.

One observation that I have with the double lung shots that run 2-300 yds on TV is that the shots seem too far back. I see a lot of people who think that the lungs go further back than they actually do. I try to not shoot much further back than the back edge of the front leg and since doing so I have been having most of the animals shot go down in sight. Don't think that the the 3-D targets are marked correctly. I do aim for the heart because I have a tendancy to shoot high when I get excited and this gives me some room for error. I shot a doe last year that I only hit her in the very lower tip of the heart and she dropped in about 50yds but she left a good blood trail.

Shot lots of deer and I agree with Biggie that double lung shots have always produed very short blood trails. Heartshots it depends but they can be from 2 to 200 yards depending on the deers alertness and such. I have to totally disagree that you will more than likely hit one of the main arteries that run just under the spine on a shot through the back loins, actually you are lucky to hit them on that shot. Shawn

I should add that all my deer that were indeed double lunged none went over 60 yards even if they were very alert when shot. As my Dad says "can't breath, can't run far!!" Shawn

Never noticed a big difference between the double lung or heart shot as far as distance they travel. In each case the deer I've shot will still travel 3 to 60 yds. And I would say that of all the deer I've shot, these to hits average out to be about even in killing efficiency.

However, I've dropped many deer with spine shots and all but one were dead when I got to them. None of them moved from the spot they were standing when hit. If you sever the spinal cord they drop! Period! The only one that wasn't dead the BH tip punctured the cord but did not sever it. Had to dispatch with throat cutting, but it did drop in its tracks!

Here's one for ya................

i once double-lunged a nice doe. she jumped once like she was startled, looked around, and WENT BACK TO EATING! I thought:NO WAY! I know I saw that arrow hit!  As I reached for another arrow, i noticed a bright red spot forming on her chest and just watched. About 3 bites later, she just stopped chewing and fell over. Easy tracking!  :thumbsup: