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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Tom Anderson on August 11, 2008, 08:47:00 AM

Title: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Tom Anderson on August 11, 2008, 08:47:00 AM: While shooting with a friend this past weekend, I realized that I'm having a difficult time holding my bow at full draw for very long...perhaps I'm overbowed? I mean, I could hold it, but I wasn't enjoying it one bit. Only 44#'s, too, though I've got a "wimp" excuse with bum shoulders from 20 yrs. of weightlifting.

So, how long should I be able to hold comfortably at full draw?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Cherokee Scout on August 11, 2008, 09:04:00 AM: It varies, but if you can hold for 3-4 seconds, that should be plenty.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: paradocs on August 11, 2008, 09:19:00 AM: I tend to shoot fairly quick, but can hold at full draw for 8-10 seconds at my chosen weight. Are you using your back muscles at full draw? It'll take a load off those shoulders.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 11, 2008, 09:20:00 AM: I think I hold at full draw for .002 seconds.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: owlbait on August 11, 2008, 09:22:00 AM: Long Enough!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joe vt on August 11, 2008, 09:27:00 AM: I have always wondered about that question. And can there be a "rule" to this that gives light to being over bowed?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Larry247 on August 11, 2008, 09:40:00 AM: It depends on where the deer is and when i'm going to get the shot off as to how long i can hold it.

I don't shoot anymore wieght than i can't hold for at least 10sec's.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Curveman on August 11, 2008, 09:41:00 AM: I don't believe there is a rule but you should be able to draw the bow all the way to your anchor on a cold morning in perfect form without having to wiggle etc. But to arbitrarily state that it one has to be able to hold it for say "10 seconds" is nonsense for why not 8 or 12 or 40 seconds? etc. If you've been focusing on a spot and then hit your anchor why hold it? I can hold it longer but then I start thinking (and doubting) too much and I am more likely to miss.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: frassettor on August 11, 2008, 09:45:00 AM: I found out the longer I hold, the worst my realease
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: dino on August 11, 2008, 09:49:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I think I hold at full draw for .002 seconds.
I think Biggie holds longer than I do :biglaugh:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: d. ward on August 11, 2008, 09:56:00 AM: Remember the old slogun,Fred Bear (snap shooting king) showed me how ???? well I learned from watching Fred and I'am a snap shooter.I have always been a snap shooter since the begaining and ai'nt about to change......I'am with Biggie I hold for about.001-.002 10ths of a second,if even that...When I hit my anchor,the arrow is gone.But now thats just me,when your on target let her fly....I don't belive there is any rule for holding at full draw....My buddy holds 65# for about 18-20 second....but he only does it because he can..and he knows I can't.So he thinks it's a big deal to hold 65# for 18 second...bowdoc
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: hogdancer on August 11, 2008, 10:07:00 AM: I think Curveman said something pretty important, be able to draw on a cold morning. I can comfortably shoot 65# but I learned the hard way that on a cold morning after I have been sitting for an hour or so there is no way I am going to comfortably draw that bow, if at all. I shoot about 55# , I am a hunter though and don't care at all about 3d shooting , I guess that could be differant.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 11, 2008, 10:07:00 AM: So to try and answer Tom's question, you should be able to "hold" at full draw as long as it takes YOU to get a clean release and make a good shot.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: buckeye_hunter on August 11, 2008, 10:22:00 AM: I've been trying to shoot like they do in the olympics, but without sights. I probably hold 4-5 seconds.

-Charlie
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: BigJohn on August 11, 2008, 10:29:00 AM: I hold my 70# bow for about a second and then I get er dun.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Pat B. on August 11, 2008, 10:33:00 AM: No longer than it takes you to get on.. I'm one that needs to get to full draw, establish back tension while I'm aiming then let it fly.. Once I hit anchor I doubt I'm there over 2 or 3 seconds. Everybodys different.. Wish I would take the time to master snapshooting for 20 yard and under hunting but I get frustrated with mediocre accuracy when I try that... Sure would be easier on the body though if one had that ability!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Naphtali on August 11, 2008, 11:03:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Tom Anderson:
While shooting with a friend this past weekend, I realized that I'm having a difficult time holding my bow at full draw for very long...perhaps I'm overbowed? I mean, I could hold it, but I wasn't enjoying it one bit. Only 44#'s, too, though I've got a "wimp" excuse with bum shoulders from 20 yrs. of weightlifting.

So, how long should I be able to hold comfortably at full draw?
Perhaps this can be addressed from a different perspective. Rather than be concerned about how long you should hold when hunting, how about practicing/exercising with repetitive holds at full draw for -- fill in the blank -- seconds. My number is a twelve count. When I practice holding, then slowly letting the spring down, I think, I HOPE, this removes any subliminal concern I might have that I'll start quivering when steadiness is important.

For me, the only serious downside has been that my arthritic hands have become progressively more uncomfortable. I had been including thumbring successfully and was intending to shoot with it this season. Unh-uh, nope. I'm starting again to practice with a Winn Free Flight C-12 release. And things aren't going as well as they might.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Plug on August 11, 2008, 11:19:00 AM: If you are a proficient shooter you can stick a lot of animals without ever varying your draw hold time. But I've found there are times when being able to hold your draw for a bit comes in handy. Maybe the deer is walking in thick cover and he hangs up just before he hits the hole you were planning on putting an arrow through. Maybe he turns his head toward you to lick his backside. A lot of things can happen.

So just like it's important to practice shooting from various body positions and bow cants rather than just the ideal form I think it's good to practice shooting at various draw hold times. I practice from snapshoot to as long as 30 seconds. A hold of about 1-2 seconds is ideal for me but hunting doesn't always offer the ideal.

In addition in 30 years of shooting bows I've never once struggled with target panic. Maybe I'm all wet but I think practicing using different draw hold times may have had something to do with that.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Curveman on August 11, 2008, 11:38:00 AM: Well said Biggie. Good points Plug-I'm actually going to practice more of that. Right on bowdoc about "because he knows I can't" kinda people. I try to avoid them myself. Can't wait for the piggig Hogdancer!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Tom Anderson on August 11, 2008, 11:42:00 AM: I wonder why they don't snap-shoot at the Olympics...?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: fatman on August 11, 2008, 11:47:00 AM: Tom, it's because they are aiming.

Nothing wrong with that, and I know some hunters who are unabashed aimers. And they shoot a lot better at longer distnaces than I do. It's a whole 'nother discipline, and FOR ME, it's not necessary at hunting ranges....

$.02
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: James Wrenn on August 11, 2008, 12:03:00 PM: I omly need a couple of seconds or less.As far as hunting goes I can hold at 3/4 draw or half draw a pretty good while when needed and come on back when the shot is there.No reason to hold the full weight.jmo
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: SteveB on August 11, 2008, 12:21:00 PM: The ability to hold for a bit at full draw and make a good shot can sometimes be as advantageous as being able to touch and go.

Steve
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Bjorn on August 11, 2008, 12:29:00 PM: Only hold as long as I need to-less is more when it comes to holding-unless you are using sights of course.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Jason Jelinek on August 11, 2008, 12:37:00 PM: I can hold at full draw for 30 seconds (50# @ 28.5"). When I'm shooting it's maybe 2-3 seconds. I want to be able to hold for 30 seconds so those 2-3 seconds are comfortable and I won't short draw or even think about weight. Before I did this I was conscously working at getting the bow to full draw and not being consistent.

Jason
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 11, 2008, 01:48:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Tom Anderson:
I wonder why they don't snap-shoot at the Olympics...?
Shooting long distance at paper.. Plus their bow are light weight draw.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: J-dog on August 11, 2008, 02:06:00 PM: Whatever works for you, I believe you should be able to comfortably hold your hunting weight for 10 seconds, or you are overbowing yourself. Will I hold that long whiel hunting, probably not, I do not snap shoot but may hold for a second or so. Will release when I know I am on.

Play with it, experiment see what works for you. Might wanna try doing it in your hunting attire as well, just a thought, but makes a difference.

J
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: hockeyref on August 11, 2008, 03:06:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by mysticguido:

Quote
Originally posted by Tom Anderson:
I wonder why they don't snap-shoot at the Olympics...?
Shooting long distance at paper.. Plus their bow are light weight draw. [/b]
Guido,
The Olympic men are holding ~45#+ on their fingers. My Olympic RC measures at 46# and I believe Limbwalker indicated that the bow he used in the Olympics was about 48# (I would have to go back and see if I still have the PM's).... Light by some standards, average by others.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: UKarcher on August 11, 2008, 03:23:00 PM: I was a target coach when I lived in England and one of the best ways to see if an archer was over bowed was to get them to draw and hold for 10 seconds then slowly let down. If you could see any tremor then it was a fair bet they were holding too much weight.

Another thing we used to do was what we called reversals. This was weight training with the bow. Slowly draw, hold for anything between ten and thirty seconds, then slowly let down. You would do say thirty of these and then swap hands and do it again. This trained the muscles you needed.

I would say these exercises would suit a hunter just as much as a target shooter, because although you don't hold as long as the target shooters, you are still using the same muscles.

I'd ask any of you heavy weight guys to do the ten second test. If you can do it without getting the tremors then fair enough. If you can't, then you are risking tearing something, especially sitting in a treestand for hours on a cold morning.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: pdk25 on August 11, 2008, 04:49:00 PM: Agree with Biggie on this one. However long you need to shoot accurately. There are some advantages to being able to hold longer, but if you need to hold it is pretty easy to go to half draw and reduce the weight without much motion. Multiple advantages to shooting as soon as you reach anchor, such as shooting animals like hogs who frequently are on the move. I am currently working on not holding as long but it is a taking some time. Holdover from the compound days I guess.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Rico on August 11, 2008, 07:00:00 PM: There is no advantage for me to hold at anchor my draw, anchor, release is pretty much one motion.
If holding is some type of test I'm sure I could hold 10seconds or so.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 11, 2008, 07:28:00 PM: It would take a world class athelete to be able to have his bow arm at the precise horizontal elevation and at the same split second achive full anchor on the face with his drawing hand;all in line to the target 15yards and further time and time and time again. I think one should be able to hold their hunting weight bow long enoouoooough where at full draw their bow arm doesn't shake when aiming..........if your shaking at full draw while holding.....either go down in weight or spend more time developing a snap shot.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 11, 2008, 07:56:00 PM: why thank-you Joey!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 11, 2008, 08:01:00 PM: Biggie your close but your maybe at best time and time again but not a time and time and time again yet...
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Don Stokes on August 11, 2008, 08:05:00 PM: As much as I would like to attribute my accuracy to a Zen-like state of perfect alignment without effort, I need to hold long enough to take a look, and get the sight picture right. Then the reflexes take over.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Pointer on August 11, 2008, 08:11:00 PM: I'm a snapshooter....once I get there its gone....something for you to try Tom...it helped me with my bum shoulder....practice drawing in front of a clock with a second hand. Come to full draw and time yourself then let down slowly. I did this for a few months, gradually increasing my hold time until I could hold for over 30 seconds. Since I snap shoot this exercise really helped my shoulder not to tire out and ache they way it used to. It made shooting much more fun for me...and, by the way, I don't shoot heavy bows either....56lbs is the heaviest I own these days and usually shoot 52-54lbs most of the time.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 11, 2008, 08:12:00 PM: Some of the shaking can also come from a complete stop....just like a deer rifle when you try and hold it steady. I've heard before about snippers using a figure 8 to hit their mark....maybe someone can confirm that.

The trick is if you are a holder is to keep pulling ever so gradually that you really never stop. That minute rearward motion will keep the bow steadier than a total complete stop, that will also lead to creeping forward and losing back tension.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: SHOOTO8S on August 11, 2008, 08:26:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by mysticguido:

Quote
Originally posted by Tom Anderson:
I wonder why they don't snap-shoot at the Olympics...?
Shooting long distance at paper.. Plus their bow are light weight draw. [/b]
Not really...most of the men are shooting in the low 50's these days, and a lot of the women are shooting 40#'s..the Korean women,are at least.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Don Batten on August 11, 2008, 08:34:00 PM: I'd hate to bet money on me against the korean women. i could hold at full draw till next week and not shoot the groups they were shooting ,at 70 meters no less. I know it's a kinda different game, but I can appreciate perfection in any game. Don
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Don Stokes on August 11, 2008, 08:50:00 PM: Terry, you nailed it. If you stop completely, creep is inevitable. That's what the back tension is about. My theory is that my body compresses under the strain, and I have to keep pulling with my back to compensate, until my sight picture is right.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: GrnMtnTradNut on August 11, 2008, 09:01:00 PM: I have to hold my anchor for a few second or I shoot like crap and my form goes down the tubes but thats me and how I was taught by Dave (vermonster13) and it works for me. But we are all different just like how much we cant a bow and where we anchor be comfortable and confident.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: ksbowman on August 11, 2008, 09:47:00 PM: I pull back to about 3/4" of full draw, then use my back muscles to complete my draw. When I hit my anchor point I release. During the last 3/4" I make my final alignment of where I feel I should be holding. Ben
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 11, 2008, 09:47:00 PM: If anyone is shaking at their pause/anchor..their overbowed...Tom ..I suggest read Al Henderson's "Winning Archery"...Most of your best traditional shots in hunting weights bows are very physically strong people...barrel chested men with the smell of roast beef on their breath...never had a skinny guy beat me You need to be built like Shrek
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: hogdancer on August 11, 2008, 10:04:00 PM: oh well Joebuck, when I was watching you shoot the other day you were shaking like a dog trying to pass a peach seed, I guess we need to sand on those limbs some more.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: fatman on August 11, 2008, 10:05:00 PM: barrel chested men with the smell of roast beef on their breath...

sounds like my wife's grandmother :rolleyes:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: HATCHCHASER on August 11, 2008, 10:07:00 PM: I can hold about 10 seconds before I start shaking. I don't hold at all, I draw and release. You only asked how long can you hold so I won't give anymore info. :goldtooth:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 11, 2008, 10:23:00 PM: BS ..hogdancer..I'm so steady i had a nuthatch light on my bow arm tonight at full draw..
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: sticknstring_AK on August 12, 2008, 12:29:00 AM: Never tried, but I can hold my 70# for a good minute. I need a stronger bow, I'm a big boy 6'0" 300 lbs.

Steve
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Curveman on August 12, 2008, 06:11:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
why thank-you Joey!!
:biglaugh:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: MikeW on August 12, 2008, 08:12:00 AM: I'm sure I could hold for 10-20 seconds if I tried
(#54)without shaking but I've never tried. I hit anchor and hold maybe 1-2 seconds. Depends on the distance, 5-10 yards I release as soon a hit anchor farther than that I need to aim for a second or two.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Marty on August 12, 2008, 08:36:00 AM: You mean all you guys get to full draw? Biggie and Joey say I have a little trouble doin that, but I have never believed a word they say. Video'd myself once, but the sun was wrong, couldn't see a thing. They referred to it as a floating anchor. No worries on the shaking part.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Sticks2117 on August 12, 2008, 08:46:00 AM: 5 sec I shoot 53# at the longest because Ferguson said I should be able to but I have never seen him do it. Why would you need to hold with traditional equipt anyway? AIM, ANCHOR, RELEASE.

Wheel bow shooters hold
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 09:01:00 AM: Hey Joey...I've seen a big beefy guy shooting a 47# bow shake at full draw, and he's a crack shot, but he still shakes at full draw....he aint over bowed....but he does HOLD and shake.

And, there's a lot of 'world class atheletes' right here on this site that shoot the way you described if that's what you want to call them.....and I've hunted with quiet a few of em. One just won a shoot in FL.

There's more than one way to shoot a bow.....

Some draw - anchor - aim release....

Some aim - draw - anchor - release....

And that's just one of many differences....

Why don't you man up and come hunt Cohutta with me this year? :p
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Marty on August 12, 2008, 09:53:00 AM: Yeah, Joebuck man up and go show how it's done. Terry, I saw the man of steel mmmmmmmmiss a gobbler at 15 yds and blame me!!! I never said a word! He did have good form and he didn't shake though.

Hogdancer is lightin fires behind the scene on this thread!!! He wants to know what happened on those bucks last year? Did you hold too long?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 10:20:00 AM: So Terry ..a guy shaking at full draw at 47#..crack shot?......uuummmm...I'll take some of that, please.....ALL Day Long....snapshooting is extremely hard to master for hunting situations IMO. I don't believe in burning a hole and waiting on magic :rolleyes: ......I am rusty as heck since i won in the mid 90's: the HowardHill World Championship, 3 Southeastern Championships (Longbow and Recurve), the Cloverdale Nationals Recurve ( tied), TBOF( tied), ASA Regionals...........and I never had snapshooter in my group. that would be over 7000 shooters......
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Deff on August 12, 2008, 10:20:00 AM: I never was never able to hold my bow for over an instant but was satisfied with my shooting. I had heart surgery last winter, and having missed the 07 hunting season was desperate to regain my bow strength as soon as possible.
I kept my bow strung in the bedroom and pulled it as far back and held it as long as I could at least three times a week. I did not try shooting it until I could draw it comfortably. Now I can hold a solid full draw for several seconds and have the option of holding until the shot "feels right". Most of the time I just draw, point and release but if that little voice in my head doesn't say "this is going to be good!" -- I have time to adjust. Now if I can get that "little voice in my head" to stop playing jokes on me -- I'll be all set!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Marty on August 12, 2008, 10:26:00 AM: Wow Terry, You struck a nerve!!!!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 10:28:00 AM: Marty ,i had you in mind when i was talking about poor snap shooting :eek:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: 6X5 on August 12, 2008, 10:34:00 AM: G Fred Asbell has a method to tell if you are overbowed. Bend 90degrees at the waist and draw your bow. If you cant get it to full draw you are overbowed. As far as shooting goes I don't hold my bow at anchor at all. When my finger hits the corner of my mouth the arrow is gone.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 12, 2008, 10:38:00 AM: C'mon Joey now you sound like a target head.

That gap system is great for targets but most of you guys come up short on game.

Ha!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 10:47:00 AM: Hey Biggie, remember first time we ever bow hunted together at the Oasis..you put on snap shooitng clinic..0-3 and went home early!!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: bigcountry on August 12, 2008, 10:47:00 AM: Myself, I won't have a bow that I can't hold at full draw for 10 seconds and make a shot. Thats me. I have a 66lb widow longbow, and I won't take it tree stand hunting because I can't hold it for that long. I shoot the thing great off the ground target shooting.

But I am a hunter, and in hunting, too many things happen.

Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 10:50:00 AM: Joey,

Yeah...he's a crack shot,...and took from Cardineli.

It may be hard for you to master, but not others.

It is harder for me to hold than it is for others.

IMO,....both work well for hunting depending on how one is geared. I came to grips with that long ago.

Only one style is SUPERIOR.....and each individual has to find out which style is SUPERIOR for themselves.

Now what about Cohutta?...we can walk and shoot some of that rust off.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 12, 2008, 10:58:00 AM: Quote
Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
I don't know who it was, but I'll compare trophy rooms with him :-)

Joey, 0 for 3? Sounds familiar but I think that's what you did on P&Y bucks last year wasn't it?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 11:00:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by bigcountry:

Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
I'd like to know who as well...
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 11:01:00 AM: Terry you know i'm too fat! I don't trust the CPR stuff either..people do chicken out...Besides i heard of your stump shooting talent...i don't want any of that!!.....food for thought.......2009 St. Jude Benefit Tradgang World Championships...Calhoun Ga.or Amicola Falls, Ga..( sponsored by traditional clubs of various states)......i'll help you run it!!...but i don't want to shoot with Coots!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: bigcountry on August 12, 2008, 11:09:00 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:

Quote
Originally posted by bigcountry:

Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
I'd like to know who as well... [/b]
I thought it was howard hill. I could be wrong. I might have read Stacy Groscup or Fergonson said it. Don't quote me as I can't remember. It was just a saying that stuck with me.

I won't dog anybodies way of shooting. Everybodies got to find thier way. I just see alot of new shooters that are way overbowed, snap shooting because they can't hold the bow. For people whos been doing it for years, it works for em.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: bigcountry on August 12, 2008, 11:10:00 AM: They Terry, I have seen you shoot on clips and you are not what I call a snap shooter. More of smooth draw, release motion.

You wouldn't refer to the way you shoot as snap would you?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 11:22:00 AM: Howard Hill was a snap shooter....

Howard did say "I've seen a lot of instinctive shooters, but never a good one"...and that was earlier in his target days.....

Later on when he started hunting and left target shooting, he said 'target and hunting aren't the same, you better decide what you want to do'....and he stated that he made many instinctive shots on game.

Yeah, I consider myself a snap shooter.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: bigcountry on August 12, 2008, 11:28:00 AM: I thought i would mess up that quote. :biglaugh:

Thanks for clearing it up.

I guess I have the wrong idea of snap shooting.

I see a few different styles these days. I see some pull back 1/2 way ( I assume gap aim), and then in a fast motion come back to anchor and it fly. I always called that snap.

I used to pull back and let it fly as soon as I hit anchor. But in the last 2 years, I will pull back hold about 2 sec. I know you can shoot and kill so the proof is in the pudding, but my shooting has improved 10 fold since I quit snap shooting. Everybodies got to find thier way.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 11:38:00 AM: "My Method of Shooting the Bow and Arrow" by Howard Hill........Howards describes himself as a Instintive shooter but not a pure instintive. He furthers explains his method of Aiming as Indirect Imaginary Point method..In short he used his point in his secondary vision as reference. Howard was so fluent with his anchor and release, it hard to see his pause but it is short lived. but he pauses........i do not know the evolution of the "term" snap shooting but any fundimental archery coach will describe it as releasing the arrow before one is at constant anchor. IMO it is a deadly hunting style for close distances(IMO 10 yards and in).....Best Snap Shooter I have ever known is John Hood from Elberton ,Ga.. Shot many rounds with John and we talked about style and stuff...He really does grip and rip it!

Now Biggie....on your Mule Deer last year...did you snap shoot on your 1st,3rd or 5th arrow?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 12, 2008, 11:39:00 AM: UNCLE! UNCLE! OK Joey.....you win!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 02:42:00 PM: Howard was a self professed snap shooter, as was Fred Bear, and Been Pearson....I've yet to see a pause on any of Hill's clips I've seen...and there's plenty here on Trad Gang....He has a dynamic release on all of them.

Now as far as 'snap shooter'....and its ORIGINAL meaning.....

The old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hill and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.

As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and referring to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic. I just wish the term snap shooter would quit being miss used.

Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrollable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are suppose to come to anchor.

Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.

And here's it is from one of the ORIGINALS.....

Quote
Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.

When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.

As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.

"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.

I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter". Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are not.
C'mon Joey.....come chase bears with us!!!

I aint skeered....you skeered? :biglaugh:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 03:35:00 PM: The term snap shooting has been a negative term forever. Fred Bear talks about it in his bible.

"Snap Shooting:
Snap Shooting, closely allied with "freezing , is an affliction affecting the coordination between the eye and muscle that makes it impossible to reach full draw before releasing the arrow".............The Archer's Bible.....Mr. Fred Bear.

Most Snap Shooters i put in this category. The other category is the "Instinctive Snap Shooter". Really good ones are far few between. Most of us do not have the athletic skills to be a good to great one. So whats a good one snap shooter bowhunter..Well, one that has killed big game in his last 10-10 shots ,of coarse!!...So coming to a complete pause is necessary to help us get our bow arm and anchor sychronized. it may take a 3 seconds, 10 seconds or a mille second like Howard Hill who was not an instintive snap shooter.. he shot in a snap! but he had secondary, indirect vision working with a pause.

I'm coming bear hunting.. can i bring my Bad Boy Buggy?.......hey you ever heard the story about jeff Roberts and some others at a TBG bear hunt and something about to much fire water and Jeff going down the road with a bear in back of his truck and he didn't know it?
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 12, 2008, 03:57:00 PM: Ya'll can scold me but Papa Bear was wrong about that one.
It could easily have been the term used then but Ron Laclairs definition is more accurate
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Gary Logsdon on August 12, 2008, 04:14:00 PM: Fred described his method as "controlled snap shooting" . . . very similar to how I shoot. I start "aiming" before I ever put pressure on the bowstring ("pick a spot"), and continue to aim/focus until hitting anchor or until it "feels right", then I LET-R RIP!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 04:19:00 PM: Fred Bear......"In condemning snap shooting, it must be pointed out that there are TWO kinds of snap shooters. The short-draw variety....yada yada........on the otherhand, the truely instinctive shooter can also be a snap shooter." The Archers Bible..

So 2 kinds of Snap shooters.......How dare you Biggie.....oh my gosh..
:scared:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 07:21:00 PM: Snap shooters n Panic shooters....there, now its settled.

What's a bad boy buggy? Aint sure they allow those in the Wilderness.

Oh, I know a guy that's went 10 for 10. :D

Dang, just can\\'t seem to find a pause.... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/hill/hillshoot2.wmv)

Milwaukee 1937 (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/hill/hillshoot1.wmv) 1.1 MEG wmv file

Self Defense (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/hill/hillshoot8.wmv) 1.5 MEGS wmv file
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 12, 2008, 07:53:00 PM: Joey NOW you post his whole thought.....

Papa Bear, I apologize.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: redant 60/65 on August 12, 2008, 08:19:00 PM: Got to put my 2 cents in, it seems like it all works pretty good, for every body. Holding, snap shooting. This is a good topic. If ever you get a chance to shoot with Kingwouldbe, Dave out here in Calforina, you will get to see one of the best shots on the West coast, he uses a clicker has for years, and you all have seen the game he has killed. I think he usualy hold about 5- 10 seconds, with a 60# bow. I think it's more a mental thing shooting. Holding, aiming, when it feels right you shoot. :saywhat:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 08:59:00 PM: I will show all of ya'll proper shooting form for a hunting weight Traditional bow at the 2009 Tradgang St. Jude Benefit North American Championships.. :readit:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 09:01:00 PM: Uncle Howard?

What now you're KIN to him???

Or, are you sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express tonight? :biglaugh:
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: csdqm2 on August 12, 2008, 09:10:00 PM: 50 lbs hold typicaly 2-3 secs before release,7 secs before the shimmies start
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: joebuck on August 12, 2008, 09:20:00 PM: Uncle Howard!! was before your time Terry. In the 80's and 90's, Howard Hill's nephew, Jerry Hill, use to put on the grandest, most unorganized, unbelievable moving, flying, jumping 28 targets you have ever seen. People from 3-4 different countrys would come every summer to try to win the World Championships there in Wilsonville , Al. We would all pile up from Ga and head over and camp out or stay at the roach motel that weekend and have a blast....2 days of Competiton.....Highlight for Me and I know Biggie and others is when Jerry would hold court on saturday night and show Howard Hill movies......To start every tournament off he would talk about "UNCLE" Howard and then shoot an arrow in the air in memory of his uncle...it never failed someone in the crowd would always scream like a cat when he shot that arrow into never never land.........if you get close to Oxford,Ms...I let your touch my 1993 World Championship Trophy...you may even develop a pause after that :D
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: J-dog on August 12, 2008, 09:23:00 PM: I shot this evening and many times I seem to snap shoot as I dont feel right about the shot but I still tack it in. That to me is snap shooting, I just feel better when I have my spot picked, draw confirm my spot and release, how long a hold is it??? never timed it, but less that 3 seconds, probably more like 1-2 seconds. I still do not think that is snap shooting.

If you are hitting your mark consistently -what matters whether you snap or hold. I am lost.

J
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 09:33:00 PM: Love ya Joey...even left you a voice mail...but I don't need no pause lessen the game dictates, then and only then will I hold. Like you said, gotta be versatile.

Take care my friend.....see you in the Wilderness.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: Terry Green on August 12, 2008, 09:36:00 PM: J-Dog....no worries, we are all wired different. Been preaching that for years.

Some are better at figuring the trajectory to the moon, and others are better at flying the rocket. Makes the world go round........

Some draw, anchor, aim, release....

Others aim, draw, anchor, release....

Both work and are lethal if Mastered.

Take care guys......got some salmon to catch the next three days. Dad will use his lure, and I will use mine......neither will go hungry.
Title: Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
Post by: redant 60/65 on August 12, 2008, 11:57:00 PM: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: