Trad Gang

I know most folks use micarta or phenolic material in their FF longbow tips.  Others claim that hardwood or antler is sufficient.  Can I use an extra piece of black glass?  What can you experienced bowyers tell me about your FF tips?  If using phenolic or micarta, how thick of a piece do I need under a hardwood overlay.  Does the string groove have to be cut so that the string is resting on the artificial material?  Thanks.

I've been using 1/8" phenolic for years with an accent of riser wood about 1/8" thick. A lot of times I grind off much of the wood tho. Thinkin about goin to 1 or 2 pcs of 1/16" of phenolic so it will conform to the limb without fitting by grinding,would still use the wood overlay for looks.
I just round the string groove over the tip to make it easy on the string,don't think ff would cut thru hardwood when its backed by phenolic,if that made any sense!

Thanks Kenny.

You can use Fiberglass. Hardwood and Antler will work by itself but I would prefer to have the extra insurance of the strip of Phenolic/Fiberglass.

Is there a good glue to attach tips that does'nt need a heatbox?

I use a quality CA gel, but am thinking of shifting to epoxy.  Never had a failure with the ca though.

I used to use 2 ton epoxy had antler come off once,no failure with ca. The antler mighta been my fault tho.  Smoothon would be my next choice after ca......

Thinner layers are the way to go as Kenny says it is easier to conform.  I use a couple layers of fiberglass or micarta as a base and put a matching hardwood on top to cut the groove into.  

I use smooth on to glue them on the same time as the riser overlays.  Have fun.  Chad

(http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m433/HolmMadeBows/DSCN5332.jpg)

The only thing you do not want to use with FF string is the paper micarta tip overlays..used on factory bows mostly in the 50's and 60's....FF strings kind of saw thru the paper layers.I've been using loc tite gel on tip overlays for over 10 years..dries in about 5 minutes,no hot box needed,and is as strong or stronger then any glue on the market.The gel super glue works great on fiberglass hardwood or antler overlays......bowdoc

I have used 1/8 inch phenolic and a wood overlay on my first two bows.  I am going to use 1/16 on the next one to get the tips a bit less bulky - should add 50FPS to the arrow speed, LOL.

The first time I used Smooth-on and about 140F for 4 hours.  The second time I used 2-ton and 125F four about three hours.  Both seemed fine.

Years ago I had bad experiences with CA glues and am still reluctant to trust their strength.  I am also under the impression that CA is prone to weakness when exposed to moisture.  It is also emblematic of our societies need for instant gratification - which  tend to reject when possible.  

I know it's not a good idea to use a FF type string on a bow that was not designed for it but I've wondered how does a limb fail?
Does the string cut through the tip? Is it something you can see happening or does it just happen without warning?  
Can you build a FF type string with more padding in the loops to spread out the stress on the tip and make it less likly to fail?

I have some friends who build self bows and use FF without even putting a overlay on the tips and don't seam to have a problem or failures.
Is osage that much harder wood then say maple which is use in a lot of limb tips? and if so why not use osage inplace of micarta?

Also which type of tip is stronger, a longbow type or a recurve type?  

It would seam to me the longbow would be weaker as the string on a recurve is pulling down on the tip around the curves and would take more stress and the longbow tip is having the force applied at about a 20 degree angle across the tip but this may not be the case, anyone know?

Sorry for all the questions but this is a bow design subject I find very interesting.

DJ

I have this thread running on several boards, and have learned a few things.  Here are some good points from other boards:

"you want a good portion of the string resting on the artificial... I use Very small pieces of micarta normally...and for all I know, maybe it will bite me on the bum someday..but so far, even with 75 pound pound bows and 10 strand D97's I've been fine. I've also seen a lot of bows...longbows in particular, being shot with FF that are only wood on the tips..."

"I use pnenolic now with wood on top. Glass will work fine. When I first started building I used two layers of hardwood on the tips with FF and had none of them to fail that I know of."

"The pictures I've seen of tip failures with fast flight have been where the string split the limb by pulling down through the nock grooves. Seems like anything without grain or oriented cross grain would eliminate this possibilit"

"I cant say as I have ever seen a tip failure on a longbow. But I have on a curve where the limb split down thru the string grooves. This why I do not use the Y groove on my curves. If I decided to use the Y groove I think A thin overlay on the belly would be in order."

"I only use FF's on my bows and never used anyting else than hardwood for overlays"

From all the responses, I would conclude that it's a bigger problem on recurves.