I just got to thinking after reading an email from my bowyer. I am having a second bow made in fancy timber choices - it will be my fancy back-up bow and my current three piece (from the same bowyer) will be my hunting bow.
The good man himself said it takes him 4-7 days to make a bow - WOW.
I have recently had a change of vocation. I needed a break from high school teaching after all these years and have gone back to my trade for a while (carpenter/builder). I am working in a Gold-mining town in Western Australia for three years.
We have a minerals boom on here at the moment and there are not enough experienced tradesman to build the houses and do the maintenance.
Tradesman here are charging themselves out at 450-500 dollars per day. Most guys are working six days a week to try and keep abreast of all the work.
Now I reckon my bowyer (don't want to say who because he is a great guy and don't want to embarrass him), is worth every bit as much per day as any other experienced tradesperson.
Now if I do the maths - my bow would be worth around 2,550 - to over 3,000 dollars.
I was blown away when I worked it out like this. Such an awesome experienced craftsman - slogging away for 4-7 days and asking under $600 for one of his masterpieces!#$^&*!! I am sure he is worth more than one hundred bucks a day!!!!
This may not quite be apples for apples cause I am not sure what the labour market is like in the States. However no matter which way you look at it these hand crafted - one of a kind masterpieces are a steal when one looks at the experience of the craftsman and the amount of time he has to put into his craft.
I used to think that the Habu was expensive (not my bow, but just using as an example)- now I think it should be twice the price!!
Sutto
I was made aware of this exact thought process when I built my first bow and watched the bowyer who taught me. It would take him about 3-4 days to build one. It took me about 7 days or roughly 40 hours to build mine.
Working that labor price out at my then profession as a Paint Contractor I have never again stated that customs are over priced! LOL
Yes Lewis - it was that exact train of thought that brought me to my conclusion. I had never looked at it that way before, but I am glad I see it differently now. Even the old adage says "a man is worthy of his labour"!
I know that somebody will write here and say "that may be the case, but the market just wouldn't pay that sort of money". That is probably true, but how do these guys pay the bills????
Sutto
Most times guys who start up in the bow building business dont make the bills, and end up going out of business. Because not only is thier labor not even close to being paid but you have all the tools to pay for, sandpaper, wood (Which is expensive!), power bills for running all the power tools, etc.
Its suprising that any bowyer stays in business really.
The bowyers that make money and stay around build a bow in much less time than a week however. :)They have speeded up processes to make it worthwhile to build bows.
I suggest that the same situation is true for any artist/artisan - there are very, very few artists that can actually make a good living via their art. If that is true - does it follow that these people are doing what they do for something other than just the money?
It would be great if a professional bowyer were to chime in and give a perspective from their point of view!
Sutto
My way of looking at such cost is to amortize the price over the life expectency of the bow and I'm done. They're worth what they cost to get THE one you want. My trouble is that I want them all... :banghead:
Thank you guys for posting, I build bows, it takes me roughly 30 hrs to finish one, depends a bit on how fancy guys want to get with the
risers.I grind all my own lam's etc.
What a lot of people seem to forget is, all my bows go out of here with an extra string and a fleece case, that I make and sew myself, somebody needs to pay for that time that not might seem like much but........
Regards.
Bert.
It's really hard to appreciate the time and love involved until you build a few yourself. I am considering building bows to sell because I love it, certainly not for the money. There is more value to a job you love than one you don't that pays twice as much.
When you strip away all our talents and vices, people are just people. We all have our idiosyncrasies but basically just like any other profession, you have a mix of people and their personalities. I've dealt with the meticulous, driven, and talented that push themselves to work insane hours and turn out a great product. On the other extreme there are those that go at it sort of part time. Because of economics or other life situations that is all they can do. Then you have everyone in-between. To excel in the trade you have to have a business mind as much as skill. That is where at least some don't make it. There are some bowyers that make what I would consider a comfortable living (anybody that can afford to nock off for a month every fall ;) ). But those are the ones that have streamlined the process, made good business decisions, and still offer a good product. Easier said than done. To their credit, there are some really fine guys working a full time job and building bows at night just to keep their dream alive. God bless them all. :notworthy:
There was a similar thread to this one some time back and it is so true, I spent over twenty years making studio pottery, it was a solo effort for fifteen of those. I made all my own clay, glazes, equipment bar my wheel and refractories although I always built my own kilns. So what? The customer is not interested in your amazing talent and effort, they just want something that matches their curtains and cheaper than the (industrial factory) ones they saw down at the Mall. Handcraft is a really tough occupation. Hats off to all those guys who 'make it' and bully to them for making business decisions and streamlining their processes, they have to do that to survive and stay sane. The old workshops, be they farriers, potters, cabinet makers, gunsmiths, jewellers etc all would farm out part of the work to make it profitable. Hence the term 'Maker' one who does not necessarily do all the work himself but is responsible for the design and final product. Knife makers chime in here.
Sorry to go off topic but I have huge respect for anyone brave enough to work the hours for the money you get,and produce the kind of quality you see in custom bows- I've been there. Any decent, good shooting bow is worth way more than the $/hr price you pay.
chrisg
Yeah, but dont most boyers have several bows in different stages going at the same time. I dont think they work non stop on the same bow all week? Mike
Most of the people buying the bows don't make $500 per day, and can't afford that kind of money. Bowyers would price themselves out of business. Maybe your bowyer will read this and charge you $3000, then you will feel better. They are gorgeous functional works of art, but only worth what people are willing to pay. You are right that we shouldn't complain about current prices. Have a good one.
My favorite bowyer averages 12-15 bows in a 40 hour week. He does have some help with grinding lams, painting, etc. 'Course he's been at it for over 20 years now, and along with the knowledge he has the equipment to get it done. He doesn't have near 40 hours in a bow, even counting letting the glue and finish dry. He does have several bows going at the same time--he's never just sitting around waiting. Pretty sure he reads some on this board, but he won't post.
As far as prices go....a product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it--doesn't matter if it takes $5 and 15 minutes to make it, or $1,500 and 5 days to make it.
Chad
Sutto, I absolutely agree that we're getting a good deal with custom bows... but my wife has it in her head that they're expensive, and she's hard to convince otherwise!
Sutto, I agree, when you look at it from that perspective custom bows can look like a bargain. But depending on the product and the scale it is being produced on, it can get little fuzzy making the comparison and is often an apples to oranges thing. In your example, someone charging out at $500/day is making $50 bucks an hour assuming a 10 hr day. I know a guy who turns out custom pens, it takes him a couple hours to complete one and he sells them at shows for $25-40. They're beautiful pens, but nobody is going to pay him the $100-150 that $50/hr labor rate would dictate. Then on the other extreme you have things like custom pool cues that can go for $5000 and up. Many builders now days are using precision CNC machines to cut the intricate inlay work and have reduced their build time considerably. I doubt they have have 100 hrs in the cue which would equate to the $5000 price tag (They are probably at $100/hr+) A great reputation, a loyal following and demand for their artistry is what allows them to get that much.
I look at it from this angle. Let's say a top-end bowyer who is doing it to make a living, (not a hobby or tryig to hold down another full time job) has all his processes/equipment optimized and streamlined and is nocking out 2-3 bows+ per week @ $1100-$1200 per. Thats over $3000 per week or $150,000 per year. Of course a good chunk of this gets ate up with overhead, materials, insurance...etc, but I would guess he's doing OK.
Burnsie
Thanks guys - some great thoughts and comments here. Thanks for participating.
Sutto
What about a company like Widow? If a bow can be made in a few days why does it takes a couple months to get one of there bows.
I realize they sell quite a few bows but they have a larger staff then most.
I'm just glad i don't need a custom pool cue! Well said Burnsie that is the way i look at it also.
QuoteOriginally posted by L82HUNT:
What about a company like Widow? If a bow can be made in a few days why does it takes a couple months to get one of there bows.
I realize they sell quite a few bows but they have a larger staff then most.
Simply because there are other customers ahead of you when you place an order.
Most of the bowyers that I have met...and I've met a couple of the top-shelf ones...are just good-ol' folks making enough money to cover their love and passion for archery.
Some bowyers come out with something new, it gets publicity on the internet, and folks go wild over it and start placing orders creating a year-long or more backlog for the bowyer. Then another bowyer comes up with something else new and everyone rushes over to their camp scrambling to place orders..creating a backlog there also.
Meanwhile, there's just some solid bowyers sitting in the background making a good product day after day and making a decent living (Bob Lee Archery comes to mind). Nothing groundbreaking, nothing extremely fancy....just a good product with good customer service along with good business sense.
Well said Tom - a good summary of how I think it must work.
There was one bow in particular that was the flavour of the month on here about a year ago - now one never hears of them anymore.
However - like you say with Lee - the solid ones are here to stay. They grind the orders out year after year with bows that are downright keepers. They may never be flavour of the month but they will be here for the long-haul.
Sutto
It has all been covered here, definitely not $/hr alone, if you put capital into equipment and systems etc your production will increase but you will need to recoup that cost over time. Once done if you are careful and provide quality service along with a decent product off you go. I would imagine though, that many folks get into it for the love of it and find themselves making more and more bows and working longer hours. They will eventually face the choice of whether they wish to compete with machines and factories. Reputation and 'fashion' influence the short term but consistency and quality wins out in the long term.
Chrisg