Well, I have had this for three months or so, have gone through about every arrow I can think of, and still cant find one to fly straight out of it. I am 6'5" and draw 30" with this bow. Its right at 67 or 68# at my draw. Its 68 inches long. I am shooting a tab and it has a straight grip. I LOVE this bow, its gonna kill me to sell it, but the frustration is killing me more. I have tried: 2117s, 2020s, 2018s, 2016s, beman 400s, 340s, and 300s, all with field tips ranging from 100-250 grains. In the 340s and 400s I have tried brass inserts (100 grain) as well. I have shot ALOT of bows, and never had a problem getting arrows to fly. My grip is consistent and I feel like my anchor and release is ok. I have a recurve that I shoot just fine, took me all of 5 minutes to get that tuned. Problem is, I love my Hill and would really like to shoot nothing else. Anyone have an answer? This has become my white whale, I swear, and you guys are probably sick of hearing about it, but any ideas are appreciated. :banghead:
How do you grip this bow?--I have found that the light mass weight of the Hills make them very easy to torque and this can affect arrow flight--I have had this problem in the past--Until I started gripping the bow alot more from the side with the big knuckle at the bottom of the thumb along the centerline of the back of the grip. It feels a little funny at first but if your arrows straighten up like mine did you won't have any problems getting used to it!!
rick
Rick,
thanks for the reply, I grip my bow just like you do, the "suitcase" grip, majority of my hand on the side of the grip, second knuckle of my thumb almost straight behind the grip.
Heavy wood arrows about 55/60 or stiffer if you use heavy points - 700 grns total weight or so. May also have to use a much tighter grip and/or shift your hand position - I like the hard squeeze grip approach.
Can you grab it with only your pointer, index finger and thumb? Fold your other two fingers down. Never shot a Hill, but it might work.
For what it's worth, I generally overspine my Hills by 10# or so. For example, I shoot 70-75# spines out of my 60#@28 Big 5. That's with cedars, would probably need to go even heavier with hardwoods. On the other hand, I can shoot arrows spined right at bow weight as well and they shoot good. Unfortunatly, with your long draw length, it's hard to find wood arrows. I think Surewood has sitka spruce in lengths longer than 32 inches. Though a 32 inch shaft might work for you, at least with a field point. Usually gain an eights of an inch on the nock end. If you grind your point taper to abouy 7/8 inch, it would probably be long enough. At your draw length, you would probably want woodies at 85-90# spine or higher.
You didn't say what kind of arrow flight you're getting. That would help diagnose the problem. What's your brace height? My Hills shoot good at about 6 3/4 inches, with the nock about 9/16 to 5/8 inches above perpendicular, nocking the arrow under the nock point. Also, despite what HH said about gripping the bow tightly, I've found a more gentle grip to work better. Not only are you less likely to torque the bow, it also reduces felt hand shock.
Did you check limb straightness. I've never seen a Hill with a twisted limb, but I suppose it's possible, and the longer the draw length, the more any twist or off center limb will affect the arrow flight.
Sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck.
Take a look at this book, it may help with shooting.
Bret
http://www.millerlongbow.com/default.cfm?id=119
Arrow flight varies, but almost always have pretty severe right to left tail wagging in flight. Right now my brace height is about 6 1/2", but I have been from 6-7" and back again. My nock is at 5/8", and has also been moved numerous times. I havent checked for limb twist and will when I get home, but like you I cant imagine twisting one of those limbs!
Brackshooter,
I don't shoot carbon arrows, but I have a long 30" draw length too and I shoot 31" long aluminum arrows. I also shoot with a tab. With all the aluminum arrow sizes you gave, I think they are all too weak in spine especially if you're shooting a 31" arrow. I would have started tuning your bow with 2219s and 2315s. Years ago, about 30 years, many big guys (250 pounds or more in physical weight) used to shoot 65-70 pound recurves and longbows. Everyone of them shot 2216s or 2219s depending on a short or long draw length and those with a long draw like yourself, with arrows cut to 31" long, they all shot the venerable 2219. Just checked Easton's site and all three sizes are still available in the XX75 Camo Hunter. Those big guys with long 30" draw lengths and 31" arrows, shot three, 5" shield cut feathers on their arrows, but parabolic feathers will also do. Many of them back them used a Jo-Jan fletcher which put a 11 degree twist in their feathers. I think you should try the 2219 or a 2315 aluminum if your arrows are cut 31" long. Don't give up on that Hill yet. ;) Almost forgot, they all shot the 125 grain Bear Razorhead broadhead too. With the screw in broadhead Bear heads, I think they were 145 grains.
Brackshooter....
Have mentioned your problem to Craig at Howard Hill maybe he can help you figure out whats going on....
And have you tried one of the Arrow Dynamics carbon arrows....They are suppose to be able to shoot out of everything....
I thought along the same lines as Night Wing, that you are underspined. With woods you are going to need at least an 80 lb spine and likely more. I'll see if I can come up with something.
I agree the 2219 or2315's should work for ya.
good luck!!
You need to try stiffer arrows. I love my Hills.
Dan
Just a thought, but in line with the back to basics approach, are you sure you draw 30"? Have you actually had someone measure your draw as you shoot? Usually your draw length shortens with a Hill style grip, and then you're working with a set of presupposed conditions that may not be correct to begin with.
Once you do that, Craig can put you on the right path for arrow spine.
Good luck!
Hello again. When you first got your Hill, we sent a few messages back and forth. Sorry it didn't work. In the arrow classifieds, there is someone selling barrel tapered shafts. He has shafts up to 33", and he will answer questions about what spine to use at your draw length. His name is Don Stokes and he has a lot of different spines, hopefully he can help.
Bracshooter,
I agree with others, you need to find stiffer shafts and also experiment with tip wt. You should try shooting 2219's w/160's on them and cut them an inch longer than your actual draw. You could also try the 2216 w/160's or with 145's at the same length. I don't think you are far away from "perfection" with your hill...you just need some different shafts. Good luck.
Thanks for the plug, Bill. :) Brackshooter, I agree with Orion that you probably need 85-90 in wood, and something around 2219 in aluminum. I've had limited experience with aluminum, and none with carbon. My chart says with wood you would need 20# over your draw weight with your long draw. The closest thing I have left in my barreled shafts is 80-85 in 31 or 33" length. If you use a bow quiver or heavy rubber string silencers, which reduce spine needs a bit, the 80-85's might be just right.
QuoteOriginally posted by brackshooter:
Rick,
thanks for the reply, I grip my bow just like you do, the "suitcase" grip, majority of my hand on the side of the grip, second knuckle of my thumb almost straight behind the grip.
Forgive me if I'm missing something here, I've had a long day. But, that grip sounds way bad to me for a straight grip longbow. If I were to alter my grip in such a manner, I would expect to induce all kinds of throttling of the handle upon release which would play havoc on the arrow.
Somewhere there is a web page that depicts a bread and butter method of gripping a straight Hill handle. You need to get the meat of the heel along the thumb behind the handle. Regardless of your grip pressure technique, you don't want to rotate that support away from the rear of the handle to the side so that it twists upon release. You cannot shoot that handle like a recurve.
Also, if you are indeed drawing 30-inches or better, a 70inch bow would be most ideal for stability. You can shoot shorter, but you'll have a bit less stability than someone shooting a 66" bow with a 26-inch draw. I was just talking to Craig yesterday about draw lengths so I can tell you for sure his bows are measured to the exact back of his shelf. Have someone mark your shaft at that point to indeed confirm your draw length. From that point, I have faith in old man Kelly Peterson "Arrows by Kelly". Find his old arrow chart and match it to your actual draw length and the bows draw weight. I'd be willing to wager if at that point you couldn't get good flight, it would be your hold, release, and/or follow thru and not spine.
Good Luck,
Daddy Bear
I am sure you shooting form Brack is in good shape with your recurve.i think working on your grip on that bow a bit would be something to consider and like was allready mentioned by some 2216s,2315s or 2219s would be worth a look.Hope you work it out!
Try this:
http://www.howardhillshooters.com/hillgrip/hillgrip.html
I`m thinking 2315`s or 2219`s and make sure your nocks are not to tight on the string. I love my Hill and all Hills I`ve shot.RC
brack,
I just happen to have found Kelly Peterson's chart dated back from 1997.
If you are pulling 65-pounds with an arrow BOP of 30", spine will be 75-79#. If these arrows are 31" BOP, spine will be 80-84#.
If you are pulling 70-pounds with an arrow BOP of 30", spine will be 80-84#. If these arrows are 31" BOP, spine will be 85-89#.
Kelly did not believe in bare shafting. Put big 5" or 5 1/2" feathers and shoots for spine. I personally do this with my hunting broadhead of choice. I cut back until I'm grouping straight away down the center and call it good. From that point, field points and blunts have always hit the same mark.
Also, you may want to try cock feather in with a slightly lower nocking point if all else fails.
Hope this helps,
Daddy Bear
My grip is very similiar to the close up near the bottom of the page. I really dont think its a grip issue. I am gonna try some 2219s later this week and see if that clears things up.
If you are talking about the "Pete" grip, I'm of the opinion that it is absolutely the wrong way to go about shooting a straight handle longbow pulling the amount of weight you have. No disrespect to Pete, but you'd be hard pressed to truly push the handle straight into the target. The only thing keeping the handle straight at full draw would be string tension. Once you loose and that 65-70pounds of string tension was gone, I'd bet that your bow hand would immediately rotate just like working the throttle on a motorcycle. You'd most definitely run into problems then. You can get away with this shooting a pistol grip with pressure in the pivot point, but I don't see it on a 65pound Hill bow where you need to get heel down behind the handle.
Maybe I'm wrong for you, but that is what would happen with me shooting the same bow.
later,
Daddy Bear
nope, i am talking about the Dave Thomas grip....
I too think you should try the 2216 or 2219
It sounds to me like you are putting the pressure into the grip up near what would be the throat if it were a locator and your brace height has probably been too low for the most part. Fishtailing says to me that the arrow is smacking off the riser either by torque or because the brace it too low or both. My guess is primarily grip torque at the release.
Try pushing into the bow right at the base of your palm and only wrap your bottom two fingers around the grip. Let your thumb, index, and middle finger barely rest on the grip. At least try it and see if the flight cleans up.
I agree with the others that your aluminum choices have probably been too weak. The 2117 is close enough though and the carbons, no way were all your carbons too weak. Put a flo green nock on one of those 2117's and strip off the feathers and tell us what it looks like in flight.
Tail wagging is classic low spine arrow flight if you aren't hearing arrow slap. All other indications support the assumption but the unknown for me is a) how much centershot on a Hill and b) string material. Curious to hear how the 2219s do. Great shafting, nearly indestructable. I shoot them 31" bop from 56# @ 30" recurve using 225 grain points, high performance string.
One alternative is to build out the arrow pass temperarily and try the 2117s. Or more accurately, built out the arrow pass using the 2117s until the wag goes away. I've never had good luck with carbons but I think the 300s are the stiffest arrows you cited but not much more than the 2117s. Deflection with carbons is hard to correlate to conventional, not 1:1, as I understand it. If I weren't so unsure about them, I'd say try the aforementioned with the 300s. Lightest points obviously with whichever you use.
I agree that with some others that the arrows you've tried so far are all underspined based on your draw weight and draw length. I had a Hill that I found very challenging to tune, but it did turn out that my arrow selections were erring on the weak side. Good luck.
brackshooter....
Many people misunderstand Hill's suitcase grip. If you look at his own grip and his pupils' including Schulz' grip you will see what I'm saying. When you pick up a suitcase, you are gripping more tightly with the bottom two fingers than the top fingers. This is of utmost importance and is the secret key to bend the bottom limb correctly so that upon release, the two limbs will work in unison. Most people think that the suitcase grip means the thumb is in line with the belly of the grip. Look at any picture or movie of Hill or his pupils and you will see that his thumb is always to the right of the belly of the grip. The peak of the grip is in the 'y' of the hand between the thumb and the first finger. With the hand in this position, you won't torque the handle because you could actually shoot with the fingers open. Gripping firmly with the bottom fingers is the key.....the top fingers just go along for the ride.
After you have the limbs bending correctly and the bow performing, look at your arrows. If you are a right handed shooter, right wing feathers can kick of the arrow shelf and give bad arrow flight. Try shooting with the cock feather in towards the sight window or use left wing feathers. Also, it helps most Hill style longbow shootes to shoot overspine arrows. I use 10# over. With your long draw, you should be well into the 80-90# spine. Remember that the stiffer the arrow is, the less deflection, so that the arrow deflection between 70 and 90# is much less than between 50 and 70#. When I shot 80+ # bows, I saw very little difference between 85# spine and 95# spine because the deflection variance is so small. I would bet that you could shoot 90# spine better than anything else you've tried. Also, if you keep the tip weight around 125 gr. you won't weaken the spine as much as if you are using 160 gr. heads.
hope this helps.
Well said Sunset Hill, that should help alot of people out.
Thanks alot guys, youve given me lots to think about and work on for the next few days. I really want to get this figured out, like I said, I really love this bow and want to hunt with it this year. I actually am pretty accurate with it, eventho my arrows aint flying straight. Once they do, I think I will be more accurate with this than with anything else.
See if you can find someone else to shoot your bow with same draw # then you might know if its you or the arrows. Also make sure you do not torgue the string with your drawing hand.
An update: Went and bought some cheap 2219s today, fletched them up with banannas and threw on a 145. So far so good. played with the grip a little and looks like it feels a little better with more of the heel of my hand in the grip. Thumb is more on the inside of the bow than it was, and arrow flight looks to be much improved. I havent had the chance to shoot longer than about 20 yards yet to see if they are in fact flying perfectly, but they are definatly better than they were before. I will keep you guys updated, thanks so much for all the advice/help.
QuoteOriginally posted by Daddy Bear:
Try this:
http://www.howardhillshooters.com/hillgrip/hillgrip.html
Son of a dang it! I love/hate threads like this one. I've just recently switched to a longbow from a recurve and I've been working my butt off to grip it in what I *thought* was the suitcase grip advocated by Asbell and Hill (I thought).
Lol - I've just spent the last couple of hours outside working to try to alter my grip to match the one in your link. Honestly, I can see how that grip would be more consistent, but so far it also seems both hand-shockier and louder than what I'm used to.
Thanks alot!
:-p
My thoughts on the straight grip is that you cannot shoot it like a recurve. Your heel needs to be down while pushing the bow straight forward to the target. There are several grip techniques such as where you apply more pressure with the bottom fingers to ensure you are heel down. I do not need to do this and can do very well with a light and even pressure across all my fingers as my grip stays heel down and is dead solid upon release. I can even slightly open my fingers where I'm just barely hanging on to the handle (just enough so it doesn't fall to the ground) and I'll shoot well because I'm heel down straight behind the handle.
Once you find the sweet spot, it will come together. Bottom line is the pressure needs to be behind the handle at that sweet spot(heel down) pushing dead straight forward while the string is pulled dead straight back.
I can shoot a recurve pretty good, but to this day, it feels odd to me to take the pressure off the heel so that it rotates up to the web of my hand pushing into the pivot point of the locator. I'd guess that this is what some recurve shooters try to do when shooting a straight handle and this is probably where they run into trouble. I've even seen where recurve shooters curl under their bottom fingers and include them in their grip between the heel and the longbow straight grip which makes an artificial pistol grip so they can shoot with a straight wrist putting the pressure on the web of the hand. Some seem to make it work for target shooting, but I think your best served getting that heel down with a grip closer to that of Hill and his underlings.
Get that grip down, get some 9-11gpp wood arrows of proper spine, set your brace height, and the bow should shoot smooth and quiet.
later,
Daddy Bear
Don't forget about a 2315 in aluminum.
Last Oct. I attended Bob Wesley's Whispering Pines Shooting School. Bob was a personal friend of Howard and learned Howards shooting methods. He taught Dick Wightman and myself to grip the bow like this...
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/win1885-1/grip.jpg
I'm left handed as you can see, but the same principles apply. If you're right handed, draw a line about 1/8 - 1/4 inch to the left of the large knuckle at the base of the thumb. Align that with the center of the bow. The reason Bob stresses this grip is that there are eight bones in your wrist that will be correctly aligned with your bow arm when it's used. My wrist in the picture is cocked to the right....a result of trying to get the picture....and doesn't represent the way I shoot.
Tom I.
Hi- Footed cedar can reach 35" with good F.O.C.Valley Traditional Archery Supply can get these shafts.
Tom I, Great illustration. I just thought about something to demonstrate the importance of the bone alignment of the wrist. Imagine if you took the riser section and handle of an HH bow and somehow mounted or affixed it so that it was fixed and stationary like a fence post. You then walk up behind it placing your bow hand on the grip and began pushing straight forward against the handle:
- if you rocked your hand up so that you placed most of the pressure on the web, your wrist would be wobbly without much support.
- if you rotate your hand around with the base knuckle of the thumb behind the handle with the heel along the side, your wrist would be wobbly without much support.
- if you rotate your hand too far the oposite way placing the center line of the handle close to the the base knuckles of your fingers, your wrist would be wobbly without much support.
= BUT, if you place your hand just like Tom I describes, you will have maximum bone support within your wrist making for a solid hold behind the handle. On that imaginary affixed handle, you'd be able to lean very hard against it and will find no wobble in your wrist.
I'm of the opinion that this is the basis and foundation to shooting a straight handle bow as this is where the archer and the bow marries as a unit.
later,
Daddy Bear
Glad that the 2219's are showing improvment. I agree with the others, you were way underspined. I have shot Hill style bows for years, they love a heavy arrow. I shoot the 2219 in aluminum, and POC or fir when I can find good wood. If you want a carbon, I like the Carbon Express Heritage 250 with 200gr points and 5" sheild cut fletching. I draw 29.5" and my bowa range from 65# to 75#@29" I also like a low brace hieght, when nocked my fletch almost touches the bow
Hi! Brack
Just my two cents - my setup is a 70" Hill (Wesley Special), 64lbs @28", long 5" straight grip (personal preference). My arrows are heavy wood, 700 grains total setup, nothing special re: FOC - normal range, and 29 1/4" - 29 1/2 " long but I draw 27" - 28" and have to bend bow arm a bit to maintain that draw ( depends on distance and sight picture where I draw to but always within 27"-28").Spine weight for my setup is 70-75lbs. I like the grip as described by preceding more knowledgeable tipsters than me but I find the grip has to be firm in the whole hand and total concentration in keeping the bow solid upon arrow release. This release is totally different than the relaxed grip more common with a recurve. I have also bounced from recurve to longbow, back and forth for 40 years but since totally resigned to the longbow a steady improvement has been noted and I hope the instinct now is even more ingrained.
While I currently use a glove with a nylon insert from a popular supplier, I also find a SAM tab to be just as suitable to my setup and keep one as a backup. Brace height I keep at 6 1/2" and nock above the point. When I get an.. erratic arrow with this setup, I can usually guarantee it is the result of my hold at release or a "target panic" condition I seem to get from time to time, which causes an early release. Persevere and good luck.
Guys-
went out last night and shot, problem seems to be solved. Arrow flight out to 40 yards looked solid,and I have moved my grip in a little, so that the spine of the grip is just to the inside of my large knuckle on my thumb. Thanks for all the advice! Now I can settle down, get broadheads sharpened, and prepare for elk season.
heck i shoot 2317 out of my 73 lber and they shoot realy good 2512s shoot good also them hill bows like a big heavy arrow
Brackshooter,
another satisfied customer as a result of TradGang
Like you Brackshooter, When I got my first Hill, struggled a little. And as others have stated, found that the bow's love lower finger pressure and thumb knuckle slightly to side. I found that this posistion, puts the grip inline with the Ulna and Radius bones of the lower arm. As all of us marksmand know, bone support is much better and stable than muscle. This is an inherant reason to have the bow arm slightly bent, to act as shock absorber. The bone is supporting the bow and means less twist, but with straight arm alot more handshock. Takes a few days, (must be why Mr. Hill told people to practice nothing but form for two weeks). But once mastered Bam! Another Key is to ensure the Power T, is followed to allow a clean and straight release. Straight back drawn elbow, will mean push/pull tension correct and bow push straight to the target and not flung off by string tension.
Sunset Hill and Daddy Bear I feel nailed it. Was in the same boat as you are now, about the same poundage bow, same length etc, until I got that bowhand figured out I struggled, I finally called David Miller and he put me on the right path for me. Exactally what Sunset Hill said, just watch the clips of howard hill and just watch his bow hand, pressure on the bottom two fingers only, fixes alot of problems, at least for me.
Brackshooter,
Thirty years ago, there were no 2315, 2317, 2419, 2512, 2613 aluminum arrows. The 2219 was king for heavy 65-70 pound bows back then. If you ever decide to shoot some of those 190 grain and above broadheads, the 2419 would be a good choice for those heavy broadheads with your Hill.
Brackshooter,
You're in the groove now.
I wish Sunset Hill had talked to me a long time ago when I bought my first Hill Bow. Instead of knowing what the perfect spine was for my 75-pound bow, I went to a traditional shoot in prime elk country in eastern Oregon and pulled an arrow out of every shooters' quiver I could find.
I'd shoot the arrow, observe the flight, then ask the spine weight.
I finally found the perfect flying arrows, and have killed many, many bulls since.
There is nothing more accurate for killing game at two to thirty yards than a Hill bow, or a Sunset Hill bow.
There is also nothing more important in bowhunting than placing you arrows perfectly. Sounds like you're getting there. . .
We expect a photo or two at the end of the season. Try not to grin too much.
P.S. The only thing worse than an elk addict is a dadgummed elk addict that hunts with a Hill bow. Derned obsessed idiots with big giant grins, every one of 'em!