What it y'all's experience with how different veneers affect limb performance? I've been told that it doesn't really matter, but that black glass supposedly performs better than everything else?
So, does the choice of veneer matter?
I have noticed no difference.
Do you mean veneers or tip overlays. If ya mean the veneers the choice does not matter. If it made a difference in performance it would be so small no one would care. It is the limb core material that really matters, even carbon as backing does not help enough to really care, for me anyway. In limb tips it would again not matter, less weight on the limb tips increase performance not the material.
Shawn,
I'm refering to limb veneers. I've edited my original thread to clear it up.
Thanks for the responses so far.
hmmmm, if your using black glass why would you need veneers? I think I'd just go with my core laminations if I were using black glass. Veneers are just for esthetics. The core laminations along with the fiberglass do the work, not the veneers. If your using black glass then there is no need for a veneer as you can't see through the glass.
Shawn, Id be interested in hearing why it is that the core wood matters and the veneers do not? Simply because the core wood is the meat in the sandwich and the veneers are the condiments? What about limbs with just two lams and they both happen to be veneers? What makes them veneers anyway... just the fact that they happen to be under the glass? What if the core wood and the veneers are the same material... does that mean the veneers matter then or the core doesnt?
Nativecraft, I cant say I have ever heard that black glass performs better than anything else. What is that anything else... clear glass? Green? Id sure love to hear the reasoning behind that!
Veneers are usually used to cover up something. They are much thinner than laminations. In my experience I have had better luck with veneers socially and psychologically.
A vaneer is very very thin, as Shawn said it is the core that matters.
Danny
what is the core material on Black widows, isint it glass? If so does any thing else in that limb do anything or is it just for looks?
People use veneers for looks in the limbs. I think what Shaun is saying it dont matter enough performance wise whatever you use for veneers as long as you keep them thin.The rest(core)does matter performance wise. The lighter the better. Dont know about the widows. Glass is the heaviest part of the limb ?
Widows use several different types of core. I have had bamboo, osage, and actionwood.
Personally, I like laminated bamboo for core material because its light, fast, and consistent.
I use red elm or osage in my personal bows which are all around 80lbs. and thicker bamboo can split and make a mess in your underwear.
All the bows I build are veneered with clear glass and exotics. All the limbs are esentialy built the same. I havn't noticed any performance differences Even in my personal bows with red elm cores. They will all shoot an 8g per lb @ 28" around 200+ fps.
If there is a performance dif-, I am not willing to make or shoot an ugly bow just to pick up a fps or two.
BigJim
"everything matters"
G'day Troy! If you ate more Widows, you'd know for sure, mate!
Sorry, couldn't resist such an attempt, however poor, at punnery... Happy shooting and good hunting to you!
:p :)
Most veneers are between .020" and .030" thick. Generally a very small percentage of total limb thickness. So, if you replaced .050" total bamboo in a limb with .050" of cocobolo veneers, you likely would need a shooting machine and chrono to tell the difference. If any.
Where the weight matters is in the outer 1/3 of the limb where they are narrowed anyway. Now the mass difference would be difficult to measure with a very accurate scale.
I agree with BigJim:
Stump, lams are not veneers, veneers are very thin by definition lams are not. Just because they make up the back and belly of a limb does not make them veneers. Dictionary: Veneer- A very thin covering as in fine wood, cosmetic thin covering. Shawn
Good catch, Shawn... on those specific word differences!
I was sitting here scratchin my head and thinking..."but yeah they do!"
Doh...! I was thinking laminations, not veneers. Now I have to wonder what the original poster meant??
I was so ill informed, I didn't know that bowyers used "veneers" along with laminations!?
I thought it was core and lams only, now that I'm thinking in the right terminology.
Interesting thread...
QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:
.... Now I have to wonder what the original poster meant?? ...
The original poster, me, meant the thin layers of laminations that you actually see on the bow limbs...the outside so-to-speak.
The best shootin' bow I've built is the one I built for going to Africa and it has bamboo cores with ebony and cocabolo veneers. You can't get much heavier than those two woods and I can still propel a 970 grain arrow 151 fps with 61# @ 29". I've never had veneers affect bow performance.
Keep your stick bent!
Vince
A heavy wood veneer over a bamboo core, will be 1 fps slower then a limb with pure bamboo core.
We just tested this with two all else identical BW limbs. We used a shootingmachine.
Normally bw limbs are excatly the same fps if the core material is the same, but this 1 fps is no more then pure bamboo cores could vary too so I would not wory about loosing performance.
Btw, yes veneers are thin, but on the outermost part of the limb ( where it matters ) the veneers are actually as thick as the boo on lower poundage bows ! ( <55#
QuoteOriginally posted by J from Denmark:
...A heavy wood veneer over a bamboo core, will be 1 fps slower then a limb with pure bamboo core...
That sure isn't enough to be concerned about...at least on my bows.
Granted the difference may be small, but some wood lam's do make a difference. Many who have shot bamboo or yew limbs note the smoothness and quickness the material provides.
QuoteOriginally posted by 7eyes:
"everything matters"
BINGO!!
QuoteOriginally posted by J from Denmark:
...A heavy wood veneer over a bamboo core, will be 1 fps slower then a limb with pure bamboo core...
What matters to me are the characteristics of a bow which cannot be measured. Speed often says something about limb design/efficiency, but not structural integrity, stability, smoothness of draw and stacking.
Veneers/parallels may be thin, generally speaking, but I contend that it is often the combination of the smallest of details that add up to the biggest differences.
To say that veneers dont matter is to imply that core material and limb design are the only factors that give each individual bow it's own character. This is not the case.
I recently read a thread here where numerous posters related stories of their bows blowing apart. What causes delamination? Did they all leave their bows in a hot vehicle? Is the glue joint the only problem?
More often than not, a glue/epoxy joint is stronger than the wood that surrounds it. It only makes sense that if you laminate glass, hardwood, and soft wood together, if the limb fails it will be at the soft wood lamination. The stress will likely have the greatest effect on the weakest of the materials.
It was said that veneers and lams are different. HOW? "lam" is short for lamination. If a veneer is laminated to other laminations, isnt it then by definition, a "lam"?
Are veneers ALWAYS parallels? NO. So if a veneer is a taper which is generally used as a core lam, wouldnt it be called a veneer if used cosmetically under glass?
It was said to keep the veneers thin. Why is that? Is it only the core wood that plays a role in weight distribution along the limb and the resulting draw weight? I think not. Let me rephrase that... I know it is not.
There are a great many factors that go into building a bow with the greatest number and highest level of desirable characteristics. Materials, lam thicknesses, limb design, fade out design, limb tip weight, riser material and weight, and the attention to every little detail throughout the process of pulling it all together.
There is only one case where I would say that as a rule, one must keep the "veneers' thin. Thats if they happen to be a soft wood. In this case, if the lam is too thick to be fully impregnated with the glue of choice it is a failure waiting to happen.
Thats one case where the difference DOES matter to me. Doesnt matter how purdy a bow is if it can no longer be shot.
If one chooses to generalize, why not be specific! LOL! When building a recurve, one might refer to his under glass lams as veneers. Because of the width of the limb, he can reach desired draw weight with paper thin veneers. When building a longbow the outermost lams may now be called parallels because he is using lams near or even equal to the thickness of the core wood. There is no hard and fast rule on what combinations of tapers and parralels one must use to reach the desired weight and limb characteristics. Differentiating between "veneer" and "lam" is just symantics.
so stumpthumper lets see your work.