Post by: Flatout on July 19, 2008, 10:07:00 AM
What sort of experiences have you had shooting at whitetail or larger animals that were quartering towards you? If you have the data, please include what broadhead, arrow weight, and arrow speed you were shooting - and of course what happened to the animal.
Post by: 2Blade on July 19, 2008, 10:29:00 AM
Post by: ckruse on July 19, 2008, 10:35:00 AM
Post by: Arwin on July 19, 2008, 11:06:00 AM
Post by: woodslinger on July 19, 2008, 11:10:00 AM
With that being said I also use to think the same way and actuallt shot a 140lb deer that was quartering towards me. I was using a 70lb recurve shooting a 2219 with a 145gr 4 blade muzzy. The shot was 10 yards from the ground and even at that distance the deer was able to duck at the shot and I hit high about 3" below the top of the back in the middle of the rib cage. The arrow passed through the deer exiting in front of the opposite ham. That deer only went 35 yards and went down within site. Even though it worked out that time I have never attempted another beause in my opinion there is just to much room for error. I have been in on 3 different blood trails where deer were never recorvered on simmilar shots and 33% success doesn't cut it.
Post by: NoCams on July 19, 2008, 11:16:00 AM
All I had to do was be patient and wait a little and I would have had a broadside or quartering away shot. Not saying it cannot be done, just that the odds are stacked against you. Why push a bad posistion if you don't have too ? Almost every deer that I did kill gave me a much better shot than initally offered when it first walked up, just had to wait a little. A few even walked or fed off, only to return and give me a gimmie shot later on. Don't be stupid like me, WAIT !!!
nocams
Post by: pdk25 on July 19, 2008, 11:23:00 AM
Post by: Kingwouldbe on July 19, 2008, 11:24:00 AM
You did not say if you would be in a tree or on the ground, out west we are usually on the ground and it is a different shot angle than from a tree.
Your arrow weight should be suffiant, you did not say the weight of your bow.
Most experienced bow hunters will avoid this shot, my self included, however, there are times that I have taken this shot, but every thing must be perfect for me to take it.
This buck was shot on the ground @ 12 yards 55lb Habu with a supper skinny shaft and a grizzly 160 arrow weight was 530grains.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/hunting9-22-0510-16-05063.jpg)
This buck was also shot on the ground @ 8 yards 60lb Abbot with a snuffer, a 525 grain arrow, you see the broken shaft in its chest.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/longbow2x2.jpg)
This buck was also shot on the ground at 12 yards with a 60lb Widow, snuffer and 525 grain arrow, head on.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/1074X4X.jpg)
Post by: Stone Knife on July 19, 2008, 11:25:00 AM
Post by: pdk25 on July 19, 2008, 11:25:00 AM
Post by: Big Dave on July 19, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on July 19, 2008, 11:39:00 AM
Bowhunting is all about waiting for the right shot. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.
Post by: Dartwick on July 19, 2008, 11:43:00 AM
But as to the the lethality it depends on your bow and gear - and on what you are shooting. If you going with the light bow trend then maybe its not a going to work.
A 45lb bow with medium weight arrows and 3 or 4 blade broad heads should do great on a side lung/heart) shot but maybe not on this shot.
A 65 or 75lb bow with durable arrows and a single blade head is going to have a way better odds in this case.
Sometimes people forget that a whitetail is small - it would be a much worse idea on an elk than a whitetail.
A lot of people like to talk about how accurracy is all that matters when choosing gear, the flip side is that more power applied properly allows a greater variety of shots.
Post by: Flatout on July 19, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
KingWouldBe Unfortunately, I am not able to hunt right now because I am living outside the states. I just sit here and watch you guys do the hunting. But someday I hope to be hunting from the ground with a 50lb bow.
I have taken a yearling with a quartering to shot with a wheelie(ran 40 yards w/ good blood trail) but wasn't sure I should mention it in this section.
Post by: Dartwick on July 19, 2008, 12:05:00 PM
If you dont have good penetration quartering away is more likely to reach the vitals than quartering towards.
Quartering away is a better shot in almost all cases..
Post by: WESTBROOK on July 19, 2008, 12:33:00 PM
Eric
Post by: Don Stokes on July 19, 2008, 01:50:00 PM
There are no absolutes in this. A number of years back Deer & Deer Hunting magazine did a survey of successful archers, including shot angle. To my surprise, the archers who took quartering shots were equally successful at recovering the animal regardless of whether it was toward or away. In fact, there was a slight edge for the quartering toward shots.
I think the most important factor is whether the deer is likely to see the hunter when the shot is taken. If it's likely, pass the shot. You can rarely hit a deer that's seen you, at least not well.
Post by: stmpthmpr on July 19, 2008, 02:12:00 PM
How many similar shots had that hunter taken that he did not recover? Or, did he have engrained in himself a very high standard for shots he would take and the few lower percentage shots he has taken just felt right to him after years of experience?
This is a personal ethics question that can only be answered by each individual. We must be honest with ourselves and KNOW our own abilities and that of our gear. We should establish high standards for ourselves before we ever go into the woods. The excitement and the drive to harvest animals more often than not has caused the inexperienced archer to lower, not raise, his standards.
Dont set yourself up to learn from mistakes. The animal, the hunter, and bowhunting in general all suffer for mistakes and bad judgement. Knowing that we are imperfect beings and WILL make mistakes, even when we take the high percentage shots, should lead us to set the bar very high with regard to "shoot/dont shoot"
Post by: Rick McGowan on July 19, 2008, 02:19:00 PM
Post by: blueslfb on July 19, 2008, 02:33:00 PM
I was shooting a 55lb Martin Mamba with a 31" CX 150 with a 125 Grizzly mounted on aluminum adapter. Total B/H weight was 175grns and total arrow weight was 547grns. I had a good outcome and short bloodtrail but I got lucky.
Post by: bmfer on July 19, 2008, 03:10:00 PM
Post by: Gehrke145 on July 19, 2008, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: SoNevada Archer on July 19, 2008, 04:11:00 PM
Post by: Steve B. on July 19, 2008, 04:41:00 PM
I was on my knees and the elk was looking right over me and almost facing directly at me. She arched around to look behind her which moved her to a quartering shot. I slipped the arrow right along side the leg bone and it lodged in the far, right leg opposite side. She didn't go 100 yds. The broadhead was perfect and still sharp.
(The next year, last season, I built a ground blind at the spot where I shot her and a couple of days later tracked and shot another cow as she stood in the blind !)
Post by: Killdeer on July 19, 2008, 04:46:00 PM
I went and got my journal...it was Columbus Day weekend in 2002. The woods were damp, and conditions perfect for stillhunting.
I did so, starting in the morning, and saw lots of deer. About midafternoon, I was on my favorite ridge, and spotted a gray form through the binocs. It was about eighty yards away,partly obscured by a tree, bedded. I stalked a bit closer. As its head was behind a tree, I couldn't tell if it was buck or doe. Both being legal, I made the decision to go for it. I dropped all unnecessary stuff, my jacket, bumper, fanny pack, and committed to the stalk.
I crept through two blowdowns, carefully placing each footfall. I kept the obscuring treetrunk between me and the deer. When I was about twenty yards away, the deer casually reached over and scratched his back as it lay in the leaves...a spike. I love spikes! A goodly portion of tender meat, not too strong, not too sweet! Reasonable drag.
He resumed his vigil at the lip of the ravine, and I closed in. Finally, I was behind the very tree that had masked my movement all this way. The buck was bedded 24 feet away, body facing me, nose pointed to my left, watching the hollow below. The wind was in his face, which I though odd, and his ears monitored the sounds on the ridge behind him. What now?
Do I wait for him to rise? Distract him into rising by throwing an acorn down the hill? I studied his form. I could see a path between his neck and shoulder blade which led into the lung area. Was it good enough?
I drew the arrow to my cheek, leaned just far enough to the right of the tree, and let fly. The arrow struck the pocket I had seen, and I ducked back behind the tree. My mind instantly became the most unreliable recording device ever wielded by Man. Eighty yards of catwalking stored up enough adrenaline to fuel two football teams, and now it was running riot through the limited space of my girly bloodstream.
The deer got up, took a couple of steps, and looked around. (I should have shot him again! All of my actions are geared toward not spooking game, and I should have just shot!) I seem to remember the arrow sticking out about ten inches, from the front of his chest. I am not positive, though. Did he bite that arrow off?
He walked and trotted a few steps, confused, then walked gimpily to a spot about thirty yards away, weaved a bit on his feet, and bedded. I sat down, marvelling at this turn of events. I had just successfully completed the greatest stalk of my life, shot the deer exactly where I wanted to, and now he was bedded and would die within sight!
I waited.
The deer remained bedded, head up. The squirrels came out and gamboled about. My stomach hurt. The deer watched the squirrels. My legs started to fall asleep.
I should have crept off. I should have snuck down the hill and come back in the morning. But I couldn't. After a half hour of this, or more, I got the hare-brained thought that I should put another arrow in him. (Shoulda done that a half hour ago, girl!) I had snuck up on him once...maybe I should do it again. I started to raise up. I kept a tree between us. I crept forward, one silent step at a time. Three steps, four, I looked up. Still bedded. Five, pick, six, he is up, staring in my direction. I feel like a burglar when the alarm goes off. He trots 30 more yards upridge. Looks back. I am crouching and still, wanting to sit and be quiet again. He canters about 50 more yards, looks back, then bolts down the side of the ridge. Dead deer! That must surely be the death run that I so crave.
I mark with a bandana the spot where he paused to look back, note the pool of blood with slight bubbling in it where he had bedded, and picked up the back half of my arrow near the site of the first shot. I went back to camp to let him settle and to get help. On the way back to camp I lost the back half of the arrow.
Nobody was in camp, and I changed my socks. Sheba came wandering in. She was supposed to be with Clark, who was squirrel hunting. She hated guns, though, and got loose from him at her first opportunity. Nobody came into camp until dark.
We were ataying about 30 minutes away at a motel. We had no lanterns, and we decided to get dinner and sleep, to return first thing in the morning. ApplePie made pancakes the next morning, which were good, but held me up. I gathered my stuff, and as I loaded it into the truck, it began to rain.
Bart, Clark, Duffy, Suzanne, Aubrey and I went back to the scene of the crime. We went to the bandana. That was all the sign that was left. I have hunted that ridge for over twenty years. Especially the place where I shot that deer. We crawled all over it, down the sides, around the point, through the bedding area in the bowl, across the creeks and up the other side, through the laurel-choked hollows and stands of red pine. I watched turkeys preen themselves dry. They weren't talking. The ravens pretended not to see me, and went on their silent ways. The whole forest turned its back on me. My friends gave up somewhere around three o'clock. Clark and I still searched. We searched again the next morning.
I felt sure that for this deed, I would not get another scrap from the woods for a long while. I was right. It was three years before another deer gave itself to me, and I had to do it with a muzzleloader. You can be sure that the next time I have a deer in front of my arrow, I will pick the right shot.
Killdeer :campfire:
Post by: b.glass on July 20, 2008, 01:35:00 AM
Post by: Overspined on July 20, 2008, 10:43:00 AM
Post by: rg176bnc on July 20, 2008, 10:50:00 AM
More than likely if you had waited you would have got the shot you wanted or the next deer would have offered it. When you start trying to force shots bad things happen.
Post by: Stringdancer on July 20, 2008, 11:41:00 AM
Mike
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on July 20, 2008, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: SoNevada Archer on July 20, 2008, 12:33:00 PM
I was a butcher for years, and know better than most, the anatomy of game animals.
If the animal is quarting toward you, the heart and lungs are very accessible. Yes, you do need to be able to make the shot, and for most, it IS a low percentage shot. But to make a blanket statement that it's unethical is BULL!
If you hunt long enough, your going to have to look for an animal and it might take up a whole day...I've seen a few of those days, and watched them "tactfully edited" on hunting shows too.
There is no perfect position for the animal to stand in while being shot, if the arrow isn't on target. That is the REAL name of the game, shot placement.
Post by: Wudstix on July 20, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
Personally, took a 150# boar with a frontal shot at 15 yards. It was not on purpose, he turned towards me just as I released. 67# recurve, 160 grain Snuffer, 630 grain total arrow weight. Arrow hit him under the chin and exited just under his exhaust pipe. He went 25 yards.
There are too many good shots waiting to take a poor one on purpose.
Post by: pdk25 on July 20, 2008, 01:29:00 PM
Post by: K.S.TRAPPER on July 20, 2008, 01:42:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
I don't care how much poundage you are shooting. If you take this shot you are taking to much of a chance.
I have seen it way to much lately on hunting shows and tired of watching it.Go back and read Biggies quote!!
Tracy
Post by: SoNevada Archer on July 20, 2008, 01:50:00 PM
And just for the record, I too have agreed that the frontal shot is a low percentage shot and should be avoided in favor of a better angel... but sometimes thats just not going to happen.
Then it's a case by case situation and every hunter has to decide for themselves if that shot is the right shot for them.
Post by: centaur on July 20, 2008, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: Rick McGowan on July 20, 2008, 02:31:00 PM
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on July 20, 2008, 03:08:00 PM
Quote
I think saying taking the shot is unethical is a little harsh. Just on this thread there are several fine examples of animals taken with this shot.I don't know if these are FINE examples, I think LUCKY examples would be a better word.
Confidence is a good thing in bowhunting, especially the way we choose to shoot. But what happened to the challenge we have also chosen to undertake that goes with our equipment? Waiting for a high percentage shot angle is part of that comittment. No matter how many succesful examples are shown here, we all know that they represent a small percentage of successes on that particular shot.
Post by: Don Stokes on July 20, 2008, 03:52:00 PM
Know your equipment, know your ability, and know you're going to kill the deer when you release the arrow. Otherwise, don't shoot.
Post by: Bonebuster on July 20, 2008, 04:05:00 PM
I have taken this shot twice with a recurve. One from a tree(only about ten feet up), and one from the ground.
Neither time was straight on. Both shots were with bows over 65lbs. One wood arrow(ash), and one aluminum (2219). Both Zwickey Delta two edge.
The wood arrow broke at impact, and did not penetrate very well. That arrow hit the shoulder,
and made it through the top of the heart and got both lungs.(no exit hole) The deer made it about eighty yards. Good blood, and scuff marks the whole way.
The second deer took the arrow between the shoulder and sternum, with the broadhead coming out near the rear rib on the opposite side. 100 yard recovery, decent blood for the first fifty, then good blood for the last. Both adult does, about 150lbs live weight.Both times the shot was at around ten yards. Both times, I just had a feeling... or something.
I much prefer a broadside shot where the deer jumps, stops to watch it`s backtrail after thirty or forty yards, wobbles and goes down.
When hit from in front, they KNOW things are bad, and don`t stop running until they can run no more.
I can`t say I will never do it again.
Post by: pdk25 on July 20, 2008, 04:10:00 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have used the word fine. Since I have never taken one of these shots and tried to recover the animal I can't comment as to how difficult is would be. I know in the northeast without a good bloodtrail it can be very difficult to track given the level of cover. I am, however, interested in hearing the reports from others who have taken these shots. Most of these individuals have already expressed that they prefer not to take such a shot and only would do it under certain circumstances. I don't know what their relative success rate is when taking such a shot, but would be interested to know it. Finding a 200 pound plus muledeer in an open plain when you can see it run forever may put some the odds in the hunters favor, especially if they are shooting 10 yards or less. I don't take these shots, as I said before, but essentially calling people unethical will probably influence people not to share their experiences. I would rather hear from them to draw my own conclusions.
Post by: blueslfb on July 20, 2008, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: SoNevada Archer on July 20, 2008, 04:52:00 PM
I'm done!
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on July 20, 2008, 05:53:00 PM
Post by: JEFF B on July 20, 2008, 06:21:00 PM
Post by: Reg Darling on July 20, 2008, 08:14:00 PM
Post by: Wary Buck on July 20, 2008, 08:46:00 PM
My own two cents. I did the front-to-stern shot once...from the ground, on a relaxed and fairly clueless Sitka buck at 15 yards. It was straight on, and I figure my kill area was darn near the size of a volleyball. My arrow centerpunched him and sank to the nock. He was down and out in about 60 yards and just a few seconds. It was pretty spectacular, the way all of our perfect shots are, but the result of unusual circumstances. It is the only time I've tried that shot on a deer-sized or larger animal, and may well end up being the only time.
I'm pretty sure I'd never take this shot again because the chances of being that close to a clueless animal and perfect straight on and from the ground...would be fairly small. Add in any of the following variables--treestand angle, slightly quartering, wired animal, etc.--and I think you have a bad set-up and I'd not consider it with any one of those present. In fact, I think the quartering to shot is a recipe for trouble (same as I feel for the straight down shot).
Post by: Kingwouldbe on July 20, 2008, 08:58:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:BIGGIE, why so much anger? :mad:
Never. If you have to kill something that bad...get a good 30-30.
Bowhunting is all about waiting for the right shot. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.
Are you on the trad-police patrol? :scared:
I hope you NEVER take this shot angle. :wavey:
I killed the bear head on 5 yards. :eek:
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/bear2.jpg)
Did you get your 30-30 yet? :banghead:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on July 21, 2008, 03:35:00 AM
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on July 21, 2008, 06:20:00 AM
The problem with the printed word is no voice inflection. If we were sitting around a campfire talking, it wouldn't have sounded angry at all....
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on July 21, 2008, 07:14:00 AM
Post by: Don Stokes on July 21, 2008, 08:45:00 AM
Ethics come from within one's self, not from someone else's opinion. Fred also said, on the back of a six-pack of Bear Razorheads that I have that were packaged in the '60's, that an animal should never be shot with a two-blade head alone, that the bleeder insert should always be used for the head to be effective (my paraphrasing). By his standard at that time, many of us are unethical in our choice of broadheads.
Biggie is right, of course. We as a group, and individually as well, should never advocate attempting to take a game animal of any kind unless we are very certain of a quick and humane kill. The high-percentage shot is always the best, period.
Post by: Flatout on July 21, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
Kingwouldbe, I can't believe how your arrow penetrated lengthwise through that mulie. That was an amazing photo.
Post by: Plug on July 21, 2008, 11:42:00 AM
I recovered them both. One caught the femoral artery. The other stopped against the far side femur and when the deer ran off the sharp magnus sliced up the ham to such an extent the deer either bled out or stopped running and I found her the next morning.
So should I post the pics of those 2 deer and say, "See, arse shots are good shots, I've never lost a deer with an arse shot?" Or should I now aim for that nice big arse because I'm 2 for 2 on arse shots?
Anatomy dictates what is a good shot, not experience.
Post by: Gehrke145 on July 21, 2008, 12:28:00 PM
Post by: hunt it on July 21, 2008, 12:43:00 PM
Post by: BobCo 1965 on July 21, 2008, 12:50:00 PM
Post by: DELTA on August 04, 2008, 12:01:00 AM
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 04, 2008, 07:13:00 AM
Post by: joebuck on August 04, 2008, 08:59:00 AM
Post by: Shaun on August 04, 2008, 09:06:00 AM
My partner a few years back tried this shot on a doe and his carbon arrow with very sharp Grizzly head slid between the ribs and the shoulder blade and never penetrated the body cavity.
This is not the other angle from quartering away, this is a wing and a prayer shot. If you want to take it, that is up to you, just like everything we do in the woods. I would rather not fill my tag than take a poor percentage shot. I'm with you 100% on this one Biggie
Post by: Ia Hawkeye on August 04, 2008, 02:44:00 PM
Referring to your last post , unless you are starving and need the meat, NO one "needs to take that shot" !!!! (as you said you did) !!
Post by: Widowbender on August 04, 2008, 04:10:00 PM
Post by: Orion on August 04, 2008, 08:40:00 PM
Post by: rybohunter on August 04, 2008, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: J-dog on August 04, 2008, 09:26:00 PM
I remember reading a Chuck Adams book, one of his early ones where he advocated shooting at a deer facing straight away as that is where the femorals branched to go down the legs. Bad shot idea?? I would think so but again he has alot more experience than I do? Femorals aint too big round, and your shot placement better be on is all I can say.
I just think one has to live woth what he believes is right,
J
Lot of good info in this post
Post by: ChuckC on August 04, 2008, 11:49:00 PM
You can do the same with taking out the kidneys. Lots of blood flow thru them. Where do you aim ?
Of course, if you slice the carotids or jugulars they will go down quickly, leave lots of blood. Lots of neck there to aim at.
Lots of places will kill a deer or an elk or a moose.... eventually.
I just taught another Bowhunter Ed class with the field day being last saturday. Nobody got the "organ placement" correct, as usual. A few got fairly close, but most were not.
My experience is simple. Most folks do not know the anatomy of the critters we hunt. They don't know where the heart and lungs or the shoulder blades are located... how are they gonna find the femorals, which are not obvious.
ChuckC
Post by: Kingwouldbe on August 05, 2008, 02:25:00 AM
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3017.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3015.jpg)
Post by: ChuckC on August 05, 2008, 09:03:00 AM
:bigsmyl:
ChuckC
Post by: J-dog on August 05, 2008, 09:50:00 AM
OUCH
J
Post by: Flatout on August 06, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
I started thinking that if you can shoot through a zebra shoulder blade which I hear is very thick and go on to get a kill, why couldn't a similar arrow consistently shoot through any of the onside bones of a whitetail quartering towards me? I would think it could just keep on going and leave a nice exit wound. This would in turn give me more shot opportunities.
It seems that many of the posts ignored the idea that we are talking about beefing up an arrow so that it doesn't stop if it hits any of the shoulder bones. Or is this an impossibility?
Lot of people are talking about needing to be confident. I think confidence comes from knowing that the arrow I am using has been tested and consistently penetrates through anything a deer has in its chest.
Post by: Biggie Hoffman on August 06, 2008, 10:30:00 AM
Again, we seem to be mmmmmissing the reason we hunt with the equipment we do. If killing every animal that comes into range is your goal, you should select another weapon for the good of bowhunting. Bowhunters wait for the right shot or pass. The results do not justify the shot angle.
Post by: sbschindler on August 06, 2008, 10:33:00 AM